China Military Watch

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 08 Nov 2009 04:33

BS photoshop!! EDIT can get even make an Il-76 class yet.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 08 Nov 2009 05:14

You got to give China at least one thing. They certainly put some effort in photoshop even if they are unable to convert these cgs to reality.
First J-XX and now Y-XX.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 08 Nov 2009 05:30

Vriksh wrote:Chinese Y-XX transport a/c to be unveiled Dec 2009 for flight testing. 200 Tonne payload capacity (C-17 Globemaster class)

Possible rendering:
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/7027/newlifter1.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5108/newlifter2.jpg

Gotta hand it to them... they think big and have made some impressive strides in many fields. Hopefully will kick some sense into Indian strategic corridors in a hurry.

having competition is good... gets the juices flowing.

Err....200 tonne payload

Thats more than the Condor/Ruslan or the C5...more like the 225 Myria...Eh gawd run for the hills boys....

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 08 Nov 2009 07:39

If the Chinese can pull off a 200 tonner this will be a massive achievement and anybody even considering subduing China will be impossible task. In case of war India will only have the nuclear option to protect - MIRVd IRBMS and ICBMS (hopefully they will work) and an all out war if they start a war.

Prasanth · Post by **Prasanth** » 08 Nov 2009 08:00

andy B wrote:
Vriksh wrote:Chinese Y-XX transport a/c to be unveiled Dec 2009 for flight testing. 200 Tonne payload capacity (C-17 Globemaster class)

Possible rendering:
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/7027/newlifter1.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5108/newlifter2.jpg

Gotta hand it to them... they think big and have made some impressive strides in many fields. Hopefully will kick some sense into Indian strategic corridors in a hurry.

having competition is good... gets the juices flowing.
Err....200 tonne payload Thats more than the Condor/Ruslan or the C5...more like the 225 Myria...Eh gawd run for the hills boys....

Well, have to salute them for their PS abilities!

However, I don't doubt their ability to deliver their promises. Remember, we were also laughing when they said they wanted to go to space. Our media was saying how stupid to go to space when we could spend the money on bla bla bla things and when amrika had already been there and done it. Now, America restarted their moon program due to their threat and India, hmmm, it is our plan to go to the moon. We are also proposing a budget for manned moon space even before we had actually sent a man to space yet. See the similarities? China claimed to have finished a 200T plane when it havent build even a IL-78 class plane. India is telling the world it is going to the moon before it can go to space. We even told the whole world we are a new nuclear POWWAH with a NUCLEAR SUBMARINE when in reality its a hull with no reactor and not a single missile in it.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Nov 2009 08:14

Gaur wrote:You got to give China at least one thing. They certainly put some effort in photoshop even if they are unable to convert these cgs to reality.
First J-XX and now Y-XX.

next in line is the XXX.

NUCLEAR SUBMARINE when in reality its a hull with no reactor

that is incorrect. yes, I do know about the news reports.

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 08 Nov 2009 08:21

If they they are bringing it to Dubai airshow - they mean it. They dont like embarrassments, they believe the new century is theirs and they will do anything to show how far ahead they are of the US.

All this will do is make is Japan, Korea, India and other states arm themselves to the teeth. Life with China armed and arming like this is going to make everyone very very uncomfortable.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 08 Nov 2009 08:27

Prasanth wrote:
Well, have to salute them for their PS abilities! ............and not a single missile in it.

I couldn't agree more with your post. I think China has developed massive production know how of advanced technology by becoming the production center of the world in the last 20 years. They are investing heavily in R&D and its just a matter of time before they build everything that they need in order to gain parity with U.S.A and the rest of the free world.

I am really amazed at how all the veteran jingos are quick to pounce at the news of Chinese advancement in technology as photoshopped crap. Also, there are many here that are ready to dismiss the middle-eastern countries as just a bunch of lazy guys with zero intellectual capacity. I invite them to watch this:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/200410 ... mv&ak=null

Thanks to the educational institutions of the west there is a renaissance going on in these countries while all we are doing really is sitting at every nukkad talking about how wonderful we are.

As it stands right now, China excels us in every single field except perhaps for software developement where too they are quickly catching up to us using our institutions such as NIIT which are opening up branches in China.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Nov 2009 08:35

I am really amazed at how all the veteran jingos are quick to pounce at the news of Chinese advancement in technology as photoshopped crap. Also, there are many here that are ready to dismiss the middle-eastern countries as just a bunch of lazy guys with zero intellectual capacity.

dear bruno, why use a broad brush and project racist attitudes on to people ? if you come across such posts counter it, this general rant serves little purpose.

p.s couldn't open your vid, what was in it ?

As it stands right now, China excels us in every single field except perhaps for software developement where too they are quickly catching up to us using our institutions such as NIIT which are opening up branches in China.

whatever floats your boat !

if it's doom and gloom, then so be it !

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 08 Nov 2009 09:04

Rahul M wrote: dear bruno, why use a broad brush and project racist attitudes on to people ? if you come across such posts counter it, this general rant serves little purpose.

My darling Lutz, the posts of that kind are way too many to counter. In any case I thought it was your job to counter them.
For example, one guy used a banned word above, did you notice that?

Rahul M wrote: p.s couldn't open your vid, what was in it ?

The video was an interview of a Bahraini scholar by the name of dhiya al-musawi.

Rahul M wrote: whatever floats your boat ! if it's doom and gloom, then so be it !

It is sinking my boat. But, it sure does look like underestimating China is floating yours.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Nov 2009 09:53

For example, one guy used a banned word above, did you notice that?

no I didn't. it's not possible for the mods to read everything and keep track of every little transgression. we depend on members to bring to our notice the ones we miss.

but you did notice ! so why didn't you report it ?
if you don't care enough to do that, you have no job occupying the moral high ground and lecture people.

It is sinking my boat. But, it sure does look like underestimating China is floating yours.

how old are you ? if that juvenile and ridiculous response is the best you can do I seriously doubt your intention or ability to contribute meaningfully to this forum.

btw, what is this supposed to mean ?

My darling Lutz

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Nov 2009 10:16

Vriksh wrote: http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5108/newlifter2.jpg

I love the "China Air Force" markings on this magnificent picture of a Guano Dung Go 117 aircraft. That is the new name for the PLAAF.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 08 Nov 2009 10:34

yes, I'm a very disinterested mod. I'll always ask for your approval sir, from next time, I promise.
now keep your whines to yourself if you want to stay here.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Nov 2009 10:35

incidentally, what's the source of this Y-XX news ? google doesn't turn up much.
there's nothing on the sites of the usual suspects.
which engine does it use ?

but of course, there's the PS images, which means china is 10,0000000 years ahead of India.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 08 Nov 2009 10:39

VijayKumarSinha wrote:yes, I'm a very disinterested mod. I'll always ask for your approval sir, from next time, I promise.
now keep your whines to yourself if you want to stay here.

Is it whining if I put a smiley face here:

after reading this?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Nov 2009 10:52

are you here to whine and make smart comments or do you want to contribute meaningfully ?
if its the later I request you once again to shore up your performance.

just a hint : making asinine and unsubstantiated allegations is NOT the way to do it.

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 08 Nov 2009 13:33

Rahul M wrote:incidentally, what's the source of this Y-XX news ? google doesn't turn up much.
there's nothing on the sites of the usual suspects.
which engine does it use ?

but of course, there's the PS images, which means china is 10,0000000 years ahead of India.

That's because the "news" is from an unmentionable forum. No links there either.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 08 Nov 2009 15:38

china has been interested in building its own large aircraft for sometime now. they tried to reverse engineer the boeing 727 in the 1980s powered by some 707 engines allegedly brought in from Pakistan . didn't work.

They are currently looking at Y-8 derivatives (Y-9) in the C-130J class and are also developing the ARJ-21 regional transport aircraft.

they have been involved in the An-70 project for their 40-60 ton requirements and were even talking of co-producing the An-124 in china. However given that they have on order a whole lot of Il-76s, it remains to be see where the An-70 project heads.

Of late I have seen reports about china trying to make the world's largest amphibious aircraft- the dragon 600.

The Y-XX seems to be a very far out speculative project, if it at all exits.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 08 Nov 2009 17:17

shiv wrote:
Vriksh wrote: http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5108/newlifter2.jpg
I love the "China Air Force" markings on this magnificent picture of a Guano Dung Go 117 aircraft. That is the new name for the PLAAF.

"Guano Dung Go" ??

It looks like the USAF markings from the 60s and 70s, excepts it in bright commie red while the aircraft is a cheap C17 look-a-like! All virtues that exemplify the "Made in China" badge!

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 08 Nov 2009 19:13

AVIC: China’s largest home-made 200-tonne class air Lifter to emerge in December
Posted on 05 November 2009
http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/?p=5394

November.05 (China Military News Reporting by Johnathan Weng) — Despite of the IL-76MD, China will demonstrate its indigenous 200-tonne class heavy military airlifter in the last month of 2009. This transporter is also the largest aircraft which China has ever made. Mr. Hu Xiaofeng, the General President of AVIC, unleashes this information on one media news press today.

Hu Xiaofeng says that the new military transporter will emerge as prototype aircraft, which is independently developed and manufactured by XAC (Xi’an Aircraft Industry Group). He also promises that the 80-tonne class C919 jet liner is being under production and will be delivered to COMAC (Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China).

China-Defense-Mashup has reported before that this military transport airfraft project was initiated before 3-4 years. Chinese Government has esteemed this project as “National Significant Project”. The Military department believes that the R&D on heavy airlifter should be based on the mature and reliable technologies, but its performance can approach the international advanced transport aircraft with Chinese independent innovative technologies.

It can be summarized that China’s future Military Heavy airlifter Prototype will be designed on Russia’s IL-76MD. But China’s airlift aircraft will has an expanded size and payload capacity, improved electronic devices, and even some concepts absorbed from C-17. For the Engine, China will probably use D-30 engines and then replace them by WS-18 or advanced 4 high-Bypass ratio turbofan engines developed from FWS-10.

The detailed information has been unavailable. Here is the previous specifications estimation. Some numbers may be incorrect.

Crew: 3
Payload Capacity: 60,000-65000 kg
Length: 49 m
Wingspan: 50 m
Height: 15 m
Wing area: 310 m2
Empty weight: 100,000 kg
Max takeoff weight: 220,000 kg
Power: 4×turbofans
Maximum speed: 750-800 km/h
Range: (with max payload) 4,400 km
Service ceiling: 13,000 m

For years, Xi’an Aircraft Industry Group has been absorbing foreign aviation technologies and QC(Quality Control) & QA(Quality assurance) measurements by industrial subcontracting with Boeing and Airbus. Meanwhile, AVIC is preparing the correspondent attached technological projects. Such as CARDC (China Aerodynamics Research & Development Center) has achieved breakthrough in “Turbofan Engine low-speed Simulating Testing Technologies” for Airlifter high bypass engine. Besides, in 2008 China’s research on Polyacrylonitrile (PAN) based carbon fibers will reach its milestone to produce high-performance aviation materials. PLA’s future heavy airlifter will realize the shrunk aircraft empty weight by CF Compound Material made fuselage and wings.

The strategic value of China’s heavy airlifter, is not only the great improvement PLA’s forces long distance projection, but also an air platform for China’s New concept Strategic Weapon System. A great conventional weapon gap between PLA and U.S. forces usually shrivels China leaders’ purpose of taking Taiwan back by forces. So Heads in China Government has been focusing on unconventional “Shashoujian” weapon system for strategic striking back.

On the media news press, Hu Xiaofeng also says that L-15 will participate this month’s Dubai Air show 2009. He tells that lots of foreign Air Force pilots have visited Aviation Industry Group for related test flight.

November.6 is the one year birthday of Re-grouped AVIC group.

caesar · Post by **caesar** » 08 Nov 2009 19:35

Aerospace Engine situation with the big transport

As you guys all know, the biggest problem that PLAAF have always had is the lack of high performing engine series. J-10 still relies on AL-31FN. We didn't see any new J-10s for a while, because they used up all of the AL-31FNs. J-11B used WS-10A for a while, but had so much problems that many of them are also using AL-31F. H-6K project was basically stopped, because the suspension of the contract for 240 D-30KP2. J-10 and H-6K production basically only restarted recently because China started to purchase engines from the Russians again. Similarly, the L-15 project has been delayed and Z-10 project has been delayed. Of all the project, I think the one that is the most important for PLAAF and has suffered the most is the large transport project. It's quite apparent that PLAAF needs something in the class of D-30KP2 to equip not only the large transport but also H-6K, newer variants of H-6 and possible future bomber projects. We all know about the tremendous need for large transport in PLAAF. They basically can't build newer KJ-2000 units, because they are running so low on IL-76 airframes.

Having said all of this. It appears that the prototypes and first batch of the large transport will be using D-30KP2 or the domestic version WS-18. WS-18 is being produced by ChengFa group (Website). Chengdu engine group (aka Factory 420) is also tasked with license production of L-15's engine AI-222-25F. People will ask why they are depending on something so old (China has had access to it since the 80s when they imported Tu-154). The truth is that PLAAF just needs something that works. D-30KP3 at this point is still not ready for mass production, so they have to go with KP2. PS-90A is a possibility, but PLAAF is going for the cheaper option for purchase and license production (or possibly unlicensed production). Therefore, WS-18 is pretty much just going to be the domestic version of D-30KP2, although maybe slightly improved in fuel efficiency and such. This engine was said to have had its first flight in January of 2007, so it should be ready for the large transport when it makes its first flight in 2012. It will probably ready even earlier for H-6K, H-6U and other variants of H-6.

On top of WS-18, there is also a high bypass turbofan engine under development with its core based on WS-10A. It will eventually be the engine used to power the large transport. I think a variant of it will probably also be pitched as the engine for C919. Now, we all thought that Shenyang Liming (606 Institute) was going to be developing it, but we found out recently that the work has been given to Xi'an AeroEngine (410 Institute). In many ways, it does make sense for XAEC to develop/produce this engine, because Xi'an is also the home of XAC/SAC, which is in charge the large transport project. However, Shenyang Liming is the developer of WS-10A and follow-up variants, so it's unusual for the large bypass variant of the engine to be given to someone else. At this point, Liming still has WP-14 Kunlun series, WS-10A Taihang series, a bunch of domestic gas turbines (QC-70, QC-128, QC-168, QC-185 and QC-260). We all know about the troubles in the WS-10A, but I've read that the Kunlun series also have had a lot of problems. Amongst all the major gas turbine projects, only QC-70 and QC-128 are ready for production. XAEC is now working on WS-9, WS-15, 1/3 of the production work for WS-10A, the large bypass turbofan engine for large transport and most of the production for QC-280. As the result of this, XAEC will be responsible for the future power plant of JH-7A, 5th gen fighter, large transport/special mission aircraft and major warships and also be very instrumental in the power plant of J-10 and J-11. A few years ago, it seemed that Liming was becoming the dominant engine maker in China due to its role in Kunlun and Taihang series, which were the 2 most important aerospace engine projects at that time (and possibly still are). However, due to its failure in those 2 projects and delays in the gas turbine projects, it has really lost out to XAEC, which performed well with WS-9 and QC-280. I think the shift of this extremely high profile project is a sign that PLA is really unhappy with Liming.

Anyhow, there is a really good article written by SAERI (Shenyang AeroEngine Research Institute). It talks about the 2 engine possibilities (WS-18 and the one based on WS-10) that could be used to power a domestic large transport. The engines are designed to be comparable to D-30KP2 in size/dimension. China has two previous attempts at medium to large turbofan engine. WS-5 from the 60s had a bypass ratio of 1.49 and WS-6 had a bypass ratio of 1.85. Comparatively speaking, D-30KP2 has a bypass ratio of 2.42 while a modern airliner engine like CFM-56-5A has a ratio of 6 and PS-90A has a ratio of 4.6. In this article, SAERI put out to proposals:

1. WS-Y1 (I guess WS-18 here) that has the same dimension as D-30KP2, with the same thrust, but slight improvement in the bypass ratio
2. WS-Y2 (the one based on WS-10) that has slightly different ratio, with the same thrust, but bigger improvement in the bypass ratio

In the analysis, they believe that the air consumption of Y1 would be 285 kg/s and of Y2 would be 380 kg/s. That will produce bypass ratio of around 3 for Y1 and 5 to 6 for Y2. The fan diameter of Y1 would be 1460mm like it is for D-30KP2 and 1700 mm for Y2. The thrust at takeoff mode would be the same for Y1 and Y2 as it is for D-30KP2 (12000 kgf). At an altitude of 11000 m and speed of mach 0.8, the fuel consumption rates would be 0.67-0.68 for Y1 and 0.6-0.62 for Y2 compared to 0.7 for D-30KP2 and 0.595 for PS-90A. And the takeoff fuel consumption rates would be 0.45-0.48 for Y1 and 0.35-0.38 for Y2 compared to 0.51 for D-30KP2.

Unfortunately, it's hard to verify how close these figures would be to the engines that get developed. However, due to the fact that this was written by SAERI which basically developed the engines that are now being produced by Shenyang Liming, I think the published numbers should not be that far from the truth. It looks like they have achieved much better fuel consumption numbers than D-30KP2, but still trails PS-90A and obviously the latest variants of CFM-56. Something along the line of Y2 is more than enough for China's large transport needs. However, I find it curious that they think they can develop a domestic engine option that can compete against next generation Western options (like PW's GTF series), when it would likely be inferior to CFM-56-7 series.

The order for 240 D-30KP2 made in 2005 is finally getting carried out this year. These engines might all be delivered by 2012. I think China chose this ahead of KP3 and PS-90A due to maturity of the engine, its lower cost and not wanting to support two lines of high-bypass Russian turbofan engines. By that time, WS-18 should be more than ready to be equipped. WS-10-118 (which is the code name for the large bypass engine prototype based on WS-10A) will probably be ready 3 or 4 years later for the domestic large transport project. WS-18 will still be produced at that point to service the existing fleet using D-30KP2 engines.

http://china-pla.blogspot.com/2009/10/a ... h-big.html

Well its quite obvious that the chinese are way behind the americans in engine design,as india is going for the C-17 i hope indians gain some knowldge.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Nov 2009 19:55

nice article. the WS-18 (I think) is an attempt at reverse engineering the CFM which they had access to from the stocks of the domestic operators.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 08 Nov 2009 21:01

Was going through the An-70 wiki page, and it said that the Chinese were looking at a turbofan variant(no citations given though).

Vriksh wrote: Possible rendering:
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/7027/newlifter1.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5108/newlifter2.jpg

^^y-xx could be just that.The fuselage shape is very similar,in fact other than the engine the two look almost the same.There is no way they are making a 200t lifter..

"Guano Dung Go" What that is the new name of PLAAF?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Nov 2009 21:18

the turbofan An-70 story is likely an internet rumour. aparently it's not possible without re-designing the whole airframe, essentially a new aircraft.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Nov 2009 14:53

and while we blow hot and cold about the MTA, they are seriously at work on building the 1st sample (static testbed) of Y-20 cargo plane.
ETA is expected 2018.

dont forget with Embraer and A321 assembly the required domestic ecosystem of tools , trained people and training will be more than available in few yrs.

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9156/2 ... 510958.jpg
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4207 ... da9321.jpg

it will be kind of good if we cancel the flag waving & chai biskoot and
get cracking on the MTA.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 09 Nov 2009 18:57

rajeswari wrote:It shoud be understood as to what is driving China in this direction now. Constraining India’s growth aspirations and limiting its potential to the South Asian region continue to be underlying objectives in Chinese policies. It might also be in its interests to see much India can be pressured so as to extract the maximum in border negotiations with India. However, there has been so far no studies (am not aware of) that have looked into what is acceptable to the Chinese on the border question. What is the best possible, and the worst possible bargain that they are able to the public which they are willing to settle vis a vis India.

Welcome to BR!
You are right, and GOI is very much aware of this and irrespective of the Govt in power, they follow a specific China policy. Of late, India has become more assertive in talking (Arunachal is integral part of India from PM, China supplying arms to Maoists from defence ministry, , PC's claim that any further agression from Pakistan, will be replied with offensives etc ) Which is a good sign. India should NOT only talk tough, but also should act tough ! The result of India being a soft state is, now even the smallest neighbours don't listen to us !

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 10 Nov 2009 12:40

An arrogant, confused PRC analyst threatens India:

http://publication.samachar.com/pub_art ... extIndex=3

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 10 Nov 2009 14:25

rajrang wrote:An arrogant, confused PRC analyst threatens India:

http://publication.samachar.com/pub_art ... extIndex=3

Its always amusing how they keep talking about India not learning the "lessons of 1962", when in fact I think India has learnt the most important lesson of 1962-never trust the Chinaman! Apparently the Chinese think the "lesson" India SHOULD have learnt from 1962 is "do what we say, not what we do" .

From all these articles by various Chinese media there seems to be a persistent tone of confidence amongst the chinese that they can easily prevail against the Indian military in any type of conflict. I dont know if they really believe this rhetoric or if it is merely bluster by the Communists. This gives them greater psychological advantage while dealing with India. While the Indian attitude towards China is more cautious due to historical reasons. Therefore India is likely to take more abuse from China diplomatically.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 10 Nov 2009 21:44

Congratulations to PM MMS and to India for standing up to the bully:

http://publication.samachar.com/pub_art ... extIndex=1

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 11 Nov 2009 10:29

India should not forget 1962: China warns
Zopag News Network
Published on Mon 9th Nov 2009 11:47:27 Updated On Mon 9th Nov 2009 13:47:43
New Delhi, November 9:
Criticizing Dalai Lama's visit to Tawang an article by a Chinese Analyst published in the People's Daily China said that India is using Dalai Lama's visit to solve its territorial dispute with China.

Accusing the Indian government of using the Dalai Lama to push its own agenda China has once again warned that when the conflict gets sharper and sharper, the Chinese government will have to face it and solve it “in a way India has designed.”

The article said that India should not forget the earlier military clashes. "India may have forgotten the lesson of 1962, when its repeated provocation resulted in military clashes,...India is on wrong track again", said the analyst.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Nov 2009 10:52

Download Link:

Praeger Press: China's Military Modernization

This volume examines the transformation of China's military over the past 15 years while projecting out to the next decade how China may act politically and militarily to defend its interests out into the next decade. China’s dramatic military buildup over the last several decades is perhaps the single most important challenge in strategic affairs today, not only for China’s neighbors from Russia and Japan and the Koreas and Taiwan to India and Central Asia, but also for world strategic affairs in places seemingly remote from China, from the Middle East and Europe to Africa and Latin America.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 11 Nov 2009 12:53

^^ Another article by the same author on PLAAF's new fighter program:

http://www.strategycenter.net/research/ ... detail.asp

China puts up a Fighter
................
Even before China's fifth-generation fighter flies, advances in electronics and engines will enable new "four-plus" generation fighters, like the J-10B that recently began flight testing. These fighters and eventual fifth-generation fighters will pose a more effective challenge to current and future U.S. air forces, and will make obsolete the fourth-generation fighter fleets of Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. The U.S. Navy currently has no program for a fifth-generation fighter as good as the F-22, but instead intends to rely on the slower F-35C, which is optimized for attack missions.

The PLA aims to use these programs as a vehicle for beefing up its research and development capacity to reduce its reliance on Russian and other foreign technologies. A Ukrainian source here disclosed that his company is in discussions with Chengdu-associated institutes on the development of what could become a second fifth-generation engine program for China. But an official with the Sukhoi fighter company, which has sold many planes to China, stated pointedly that they are not helping China with its fifth-generation program. They're cooperating with India instead on New Delhi's own fifth-generation fighter development. Russia's main reason appears to be business; China has not signed a treaty protecting intellectual property. China could be motivated by technological nationalism.

China's moves to go it alone could have several consequences. Beijing's current reliance on Russian technologies effectively gives Moscow a veto over China's sales of its planes to third parties. As Beijing gains expertise designing its own indigenous engines, it will free itself from this constraint, allowing greater latitude to sell advanced fighters for its own aims. The new J-10B may already be slated for Pakistan, advancing the arms race on the Indian subcontinent.

I'm rather skeptical that the J-10B is seriously would pose a serious threat to the air dominance of the Japanese SelF defense forces F-15J's and Mitsubishi F-2's even if does have IRST, PESA and reduced RCS characteristics .

It seems obvious that the Chinese are making a lot of effort to help out Pakistan and contain India while simultaneously trying to take over Russia's monopoly over the international arms market to use as a tool for strategic dominance. These long term goals may come to naught should Pakistan destabilize drastically into a civil war or Russia's arms manufacturers get their act together. It seems that their ambitions may actually breed more powerful enemies than friends.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Nov 2009 15:20

Reporting from latest edition of India Today:

IAF paradropped 96 paratroopers on October 30th from 3 AN-32 belonging to 48 Sqn. in Nyoma Ladakh as part of joint training.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 11 Nov 2009 21:52

Espionage. China pursues a massive and global campaign of espionage to find military
and commercial secrets which can aid its military build-up. In 1999 a former
Chinese rocket engineer explained to the author how advice and technology provided
by the former Martin Marietta Company in the early 1990s, in connection
with the perfecting of the SPAB-17 solid fuel satellite kick motor (top), enabled his
colleagues to perfect the rocket motor of the DF-21 intermediate range ballistic missile,
and by extension, all succeeding Chinese large solid fuel missiles.

Starting in
1999 Noshir Gowadia, who helped develop the infrared masking system for the
Northrop Grumman B-2 stealth bomber, started giving occasional lectures in China,
for which he was later convicted of espionage. Could China apply his insights to their
own future stealth bomber? The Beijing University of Aeronautics and Aerospace,
a major subcontractor for PLA aerospace development, displayed a curious radio
controlled model (bottom)at the 2004 Zhuhai Airshow, which could represent a
potential stealth bomber or UAV design. The scalloping between the vertical stabilizers
may indicate an engine signature masking system.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Nov 2009 21:55

nightwatch says :

Tonight’s good news is the Indian government’s determination to defy Chinese bullying tactics by permitting the Dalai Lama’s visit to Tawang. Tawang Monastery gave refuge to the Dalai Lama when he fled the Han Chinese Communist occupation of Tibet in 1959. A Monastery Lama said, "Why are the Chinese so bothered about the Dalai Lama, a person they say has no followers in Tibet? The fact that they watch his every move and condemn everything he does shows Beijing's nervousness."

Far from having forgotten the lessons of 1962, the Indians are preparing for the grudge match … in the future. The Chinese should be less smug, but then they would not be Han.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 11 Nov 2009 22:12

GoI should immediately in theory approve sale of Brahmos to Cambodia, Vietnam and possibly Indonesia. We should also have enhanced presence in Straits of Malacca and possibly military cooperation with Taiwan too. India should strive to counter circle Chicoms too.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 11 Nov 2009 22:36

ashish raval wrote:GoI should immediately in theory approve sale of Brahmos to Cambodia, Vietnam and possibly Indonesia.

We should also have enhanced presence in Straits of Malacca and possibly military cooperation with Taiwan too. India should strive to counter circle Chicoms too.

Brahmos is not India's sole property to sell it to whom ever India wishes to. The Russians have a say as well. Also, selling weapons blindly to curry favor is unwise- it is the practice of despots and communists. We should always remember that the Han are master forgers and before you know it they will have some WXY missile based off the Brahmos photoshopped onto a J-10 with a nice big Red label that says China Air Force! The Russians know this fact only too well.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Nov 2009 00:10

rajeswari wrote:It shoud be understood as to what is driving China in this direction now. Constraining India’s growth aspirations and limiting its potential to the South Asian region continue to be underlying objectives in Chinese policies. It might also be in its interests to see much India can be pressured so as to extract the maximum in border negotiations with India. However, there has been so far no studies (am not aware of) that have looked into what is acceptable to the Chinese on the border question. What is the best possible, and the worst possible bargain that they are able to the public which they are willing to settle vis a vis India.

Belated welcome. Hope we can hear more from you in future.

Any thoughts on the subject?

Thanks, ramana

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 12 Nov 2009 02:29

Brando wrote:
ashish raval wrote:GoI should immediately in theory approve sale of Brahmos to Cambodia, Vietnam and possibly Indonesia.

We should also have enhanced presence in Straits of Malacca and possibly military cooperation with Taiwan too. India should strive to counter circle Chicoms too.
Brahmos is not India's sole property to sell it to whom ever India wishes to. The Russians have a say as well. Also, selling weapons blindly to curry favor is unwise- it is the practice of despots and communists. We should always remember that the Han are master forgers and before you know it they will have some WXY missile based off the Brahmos photoshopped onto a J-10 with a nice big Red label that says China Air Force! The Russians know this fact only too well.

Besides, all the countries you just mentioned have neither the capability nor the inclination to antagonise China by buying Indian weapons, and missiles at that!

The current regime in Taiwan is pushing for rapprochment with the Chinese. Cambodia is too unstable and does not have an effective army which justifies having a strong foreign policy and the same goes for Laos. Indonesia and Philippines will not act as Indian vassal states to counter China's dominance as they have no dispute with the dragon apart from the Spratley islands. Singapore is infested with Chinese agents of influence and Malaysia will not anger it's powerful Chinese minority and their cousins across the South China Sea.

Vietnam is the only country which has fought a war with China and can actually claim to fought them to a standstill. But that was years ago when the Chinese still believed in the virtues of mass human wave attacks!

As far as Japan and South Korea are concerned it's difficult to say how much leverage India has over their foreign policy and defence procurement given the American dominence in these countries.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 12 Nov 2009 03:01

abhishekm wrote: Besides, all the countries you just mentioned have neither the capability nor the inclination to antagonise China by buying Indian weapons, and missiles at that!

Also, the countries near the Malacca Strait lack the Need for such a weapon - a supersonic anti-ship cruise missile. The only people who would want such a weapon would be those who want to take out carriers or large capital ships and other strategic shore based targets. Those nations have no need for such weapons whereas India has potent threats from Pakistan and China to contend with. Taiwan could have been potentially interested but the Han have infiltrated them thoroughly and bought their government.