India-China News and Discussion

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 08 Nov 2009 22:07

NRao wrote:Something is brewing?

GoI was well-aware of chini funding terrorist groups in India and the nearby regions. The 2004 arms drop for ulfa started in Yunnan province and was facilitated by DGFI and the J-e-I on orders from BNP and the 4-party league. Paresh Borua making trips back and forth to Yunnan was also known. Subir Bhowmick had a report as far as 2006 on this. The only difference between the past and now is that in the past, Bhutan (without malice but more in terms of indifference perhaps), Burma, Bangladesh and Yunnan used to facilitate terrorist groups. Slowly, with Bhutan smashing the hideouts in 2003, Burma and BD actively purging select top-terrorists, things are becoming more manageable on these fronts. But both BD and Burma still hold many key kingpins for a bargain on other strategic dialog issues (more BD than Burma). A well-known example is that of Anup Chetia and Ranjan Daimary. GoI, I guess, is starting to feel a bit more comfortable with the terrorist "resources" held by BD and Burma and focussing on the key source of trouble in the NE. There are some key trouble-makers in BD domiciled across the porous border region in India and a certain detente is expected with the AL government. It should be surprising if it were the case otherwise. On the chini axis, GoI may get a bit more vocal than it has done in the past, so should not be surprising if we see more articles along this direction in "mainstream" media. Lets put GoI action this way: a defensive offensive against an offensive offensive from the chinis. But a better response to the chini axis will not be in mouthing platitudes and putting up reports, but restarting Tibet and Xinjiang liberation movements, in India-controlled lands. That would be offensive offensive. That day is not very far off either.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 08 Nov 2009 22:47

I think its just the fact that, the chances for a border clash is becoming extremely high. Indian SF is operating in Chin soil, Chin operating in Indian soil. Its only a matter of time where one side makes contact with bumping into a patrol and some sort of border build up or clash can take place. Hence why India is gearing up.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 08 Nov 2009 22:57

True.. China has this window until 2013-2014.. After that, the chances of PRC of "punishing India " will start decreasing exponentially... Before INS Arihant and INS Vikramaditya are fully inducted and operational, China has best chance.

Is it not interesting that these lines sound similar to the arguements Bhutto used as FM in 1965 to attack India.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Nov 2009 06:08

Dear Chinese neighbours - Here are glittering and colorful events in Tawang, India

Dalai Lama waves to the crowd at Tawang

Braving the winter chill, thousands of Tibetans and locals lined up along the roads leading to the Tawang monastery on Sunday and gave a rousing reception to the Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama, who arrived in town on a four-day visit.

After his arrival by a helicopter from Guwahati, the 74-year-old Dalai Lama, accompanied by Arunachal Pradesh Chief Minister Dorjee Kandu, was welcomed by cheering Tibetans as he drove along the 10-km stretch from the helipad to the 400-year-old Tawang monastery.

The Dalai Lama's cavalcade stopped at three places -- old market, Manjusree Vidyapeeth and new market -- as the spiritual leader blessed the people who greeted him.

An 'emotional' Dalai Lama has out at China for opposing his visit to Arunachal Pradesh and expressed surprise over Chinese claims to Tawang.

Tawang is all decked uu

Nestled in the snow-capped mountains and perched at a height of 10,000 feet, Tawang town wears a festive look with colourful posters with the Dalai Lama's pictures and Tibetan and Indian flags flying everywhere.

Buildings and houses have been given a fresh coat of paint and streets and localities cleaned to mark the occasion.

The Dalai Lama's cavalcade took more than 45 minutes to reach the Tawang monastery from the helipad.

There are ZERO Chinese supporters in the entire state of Arunachal, India

The Tibetan spiritual leader, who is in town for the first time since 2003, inaugurated a museum inside the Tawang monastery. The museum named 'Gadenmamgyallhatsa' contains historic Buddhist scriptures.

Soon after the inauguration, Dalai Lama was taken in a procession from the entrance to duakkan that was attended by 700 Buddhist monks. Accompanied by Kandu and spiritual leader P G Rinpcohe, the Dalai Lama went into to the duakkan to offer prayers.

Tawang, the 400-year old and the second largest Tibetan monastery in India, holds personal history for the Dalai Lama.

No message for Chinese - They are not spiritual anyway

On Chinese opposition to his visit, the 74-year-old Dalai Lama said, "That is quiet usual. Wherever I go they protest. It is totally baseless. The Chinese Communists turn quite sad usually on my every movement. Of course my visit here is non-political."

On his visit, he said he was getting "emotional" as he had crossed this town in 1959 while fleeing from Tibet.

"I get emotional. When I escaped I had mental stress and anxiety. I had feeling of hopelessness. But the moment I saw (Krishna) Menon and other MEA officials on the border then I had a feeling of reunion and safe," the Dalai Lama said.

"So, now I am very happy to be here. My main aim of the visit is promotion of human values wherever I go. Just now I returned from Japan [ Images ] where I explained that the ultimate source of happiness of life is within ourselves," he said.

Asked whether he had any message for China, he said, "Nothing, no, nothing."

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Nov 2009 06:23

Dalai Lama defies Chinese communist militia threats, Indian Army ready to teach China lesson of a life time

Kiran Chaube
Nov. 8, 2009

Any Chinese adventure in Tawang or any parts of Arunachal Pradesh or NEFA will be pushed back far beyond Tibet. Indian missiles will surgically destroy Chinese militia's strategic assets. Indian Army and Air Force is ready to show the Chinese militia a warfare run with software algoritmic superiority.

Thousands of Buddhist monks and supporters welcomed Tibet's exiled spiritual leader on Sunday to a remote Indian region also claimed by China, a trip that has renewed tensions between the Asian giants.

The Dalai Lama arrived by helicopter in this remote Buddhist enclave nestled in the icy folds of the eastern Himalayas, where he had passed through after fleeing Tibet in 1959 after a failed uprising against Chinese rule.

The Chinese cannot remove him from our hearts, says the local young Monpa youths ready to defeat Chinese militia if the later dares ever to attack their homeland of living-god Dalai Lama.

The people of Arunachal Pradesh are ready to teach China the lesson of their life time. They want China to unconditionally vacate illegally occupied Tibet.

Guppa · Post by **Guppa** » 09 Nov 2009 06:37

Muppalla wrote: Indian Army and Air Force is ready to show the Chinese militia a warfare run with software algoritmic superiority.

LOL, this is so amusing.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 09 Nov 2009 06:45

And on the otoh, resident-traitor-wannabes in outlook post such devious propagandu material that would put the N.Ram stable to shame.... Whoever Saikat Datta is, makes for one fine oiseaule.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Nov 2009 06:54

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Nov 2009 07:00

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Nov 2009 07:11

By the way the monks play Cricket too. Sachin seems to be hero for Tawang Monks

Umrao Das · Post by **Umrao Das** » 09 Nov 2009 07:26

Economist Bloger Banyan:

Asia's two giants still cannot agree where one stops and the other begins

Illustration by M. Morgenstern
IF THIS is to be Asia’s century, a small prerequisite is that its two rising powers rub along together. Yet recent bonding between China and India has turned to repulsion. Breathless Indian commentary talks of irreconcilable rivalry, even future conflict. As for the Chinese, few had bothered much about India. The superiority of China’s economic and political models was taken as read. That makes an October editorial on the website of the People’s Daily, the Communist Party mouthpiece, all the more striking.

The editorial cranked out insults not levelled in decades. India’s superpower dreams, it said, might appear to be justified. But they are mingled “with the thought of hegemony”. This was setting India on the road to “repeated failure”. Damnable, too, was India’s policy of “befriending the far and attacking the near”. Indian hegemony, the editorial decided, was “100% the result of British colonialism”, when the Raj ruled from Pakistan to Burma. Now, the victim was trying to out-empire even the British.

After wondering where all this leaves China—past colonial victim of Jurchen, Mongol, Manchu, Western and Japanese aggression—it suggests the relationship is pretty dire. Yet, although it has its problems, none seems unmanageable. Trade frictions have increased as Chinese goods have penetrated Indian markets. India has lodged more anti-dumping actions against China than has any other country. It also temporarily banned Chinese toys, citing safety concerns. India’s signature last year of a nuclear co-operation pact with the United States has created distrust in China. Many Indians, for their part, see China’s building of roads, ports and pipelines in friendly countries around the Indian Ocean as a “string of pearls” strategy designed to choke India. They even worry about its involvement in Afghanistan. A rabid Indian press is fed by retired military officers and some serving ones. Some scaremongers are out to earn a buck from American defence contractors hunting for business. China seems to accept this. Until recently, it turned a deaf ear to most of the commentary, and Chinese bloggers give as good as they get.

In truth, the real problem remains the two countries’ long, shared border. Disputes over the western and eastern ends have been unresolved since a bloody war in 1962. In the west, India claims Aksai Chin, a high plateau controlled by China, as part of Kashmir. In the east, China disputes the McMahon Line, agreed by British India and a Tibet then under British rather than Chinese sway. The line is in effect the border today, but China claims a large chunk of the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh, which it calls South Tibet. It includes a revered Buddhist monastery at Tawang, near the 17th-century birthplace of the sixth Dalai Lama.

In a “good neighbour” policy, China has now resolved every serious land-border dispute, bar this one. A solution had seemed within reach. In 2005 the two sides laid out the approach. Principles would be agreed, then compromises made, and lastly a line drawn. Only marginal adjustments were expected to the present border. But the prospects of such a deal have crumbled as China has hardened its position. Earlier this year Chinese soldiers crossed the presumed line of control in the west and sent a herder family packing. China has blocked a water project in Arunachal Pradesh financed by the Asian Development Bank. In October it grew shrill over an electioneering trip to the state by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. China has also begun issuing different visas for Indians from Arunachal Pradesh and Kashmir.

What has changed the equation is restive Tibet. Anti-Chinese riots last year highlighted the vulnerabilities for China of the vague, porous Tibetan lands. The Communist government, borrowing its impulse from the reviled Manchus of the Qing dynasty, wants once and for all to hammer down the borders of its supersized empire. All the ambiguities of borderlands and the people who wander about them must submit to the central will.

China’s urgency is reinforced by the Dalai Lama. His flight from Tibet in 1959, via Tawang, fed into border tensions then and he backs India’s border claims today. He plans to visit Tawang on November 8th. There is even talk that his reincarnation might one day be found there. That would be an excruciating outcome for the Chinese Communists, who demand the right to control Tibetans’ relations with the divine. For they could hardly declare such a reincarnation illegitimate on territorial grounds.

Seize the hour
Hence the People’s Daily’s strong words. China may feel that now is a good time to get a border settlement on its terms. After all, India grows economically stronger by the day. And recent signs of American readiness to appease China will have encouraged China to think that America will not do much to back India. Before his first trip to China as president in mid-November, Barack Obama declined to meet the Dalai Lama in Washington. China’s polemics are also designed to resonate with India’s smaller neighbours, who have their own gripes about its overbearing style. They also enjoy China’s material support. The part of the former kingdom of Jammu & Kashmir controlled by Pakistan, for example, is criss-crossed with Chinese infrastructure projects.

In recent days both China and India have called for cool heads and warm hearts. A former Chinese ambassador to India blamed all the two countries’ serious differences on the Indian media. In Thailand on October 24th Mr Singh and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao even made common cause on climate change, before December’s Copenhagen summit. Yet as with earlier alliances over global trade talks, this looks like a tactical marriage in the face of rich-country demands. As for whether India and China can bury the hatchet over the border: that depends as much on China’s understanding of its internal threats as on its robust, sometimes rabid, southern neighbour.

Economist.com/blogs/banyan

read comment here

http://www.economist.com/node/14744905/comments

santoshriyer · Post by **santoshriyer** » 09 Nov 2009 09:53

India may make use of the Dalai Lama to solve the decade-long territorial conflict by encouraging his visit to southern Tibet, a Chinese analyst said Sunday.

"The Dalai Lama went to southern Tibet at this critical moment probably because of pressure from India," Hu Shisheng, a researcher of Southern Asian studies at the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations, told the Global Times Sunday. "By doing so, he can please the country that has hosted him for years."

The appearance and activities of the Dalai Lama in southern Tibet may foment anti-China sentiment among people living in the region, Hu said.
"When the conflict gets sharper and sharper, the Chinese government will have to face it and solve it in a way India has designed," Hu added.
During his visit to a remote, high-altitude Tibetan monastery in the southern Tibet region Sunday, the Dalai Lama spoke out against China.

"It is quite usual for China to step up campaigning against me wherever I go," he told reporters after opening a museum at the monastery. "It is totally baseless on the part of the Chinese government to say that I am encouraging a separatist movement. … My visit is non-political and aimed at promoting universal brotherhood and nothing else."
Sandwiched between Myanmar, Bhutan and China, the lush, forested southern Tibet is claimed by both China and India, with the latter the de facto controller of the area.

The visit took place amid reports of major military build-ups on both sides of the border, while little progress is being made to solve the years-long territorial conflict

To China, the presence of the separatist in the disputed region, which India calls Arunachal Pradesh, is seen as a double insult.

"India may have forgotten the lesson of 1962, when its repeated provocation resulted in military clashes," a scholar told the Global Times anonymously, warning, "India is on this wrong track again."

According to AFP, preparations for the week-long tour have been underway for two months, with the monastery receiving a face-lift and regular prayers being held across southern Tibet for "the Dalai Lama's safe journey."

CNN reported that the Indian government had only allowed Indian reporters to followed the exile's trip, as the entry applications by 19 foreign journalists were under endless review.

The India Daily even revealed Saturday that the Indian army had deployed BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles, co-developed with Russia, near the region, which "the Chinese military fears as these missiles are targeted to take out the Chinese military targets before they can attack the Dalai Lama."

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/9077 ... 07180.html

From the peoples daily the chinese govt mouthpiece.

Let's see if something happens

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Nov 2009 10:07

Am assuming that half of the folks in the pic are SFF( guarding the Dalai Lama)?

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 09 Nov 2009 10:25

Foreign journos gagged for Dalai Lama's visit

The government has called the Dalai Lama the country’s honoured guest, but when the Tibetan spiritual leader visits Arunachal Pradesh on Sunday foreign journalists will not be welcome.

CNN-IBN learns the government has still not cleared the applications made by 36 foreign journalists for inner line permits required to enter Arunachal Pradesh. These include journalists from the BBC, Newsweek, and a French documentary team.

The Dalai Lama will be in Tawang, Arunachal, on Sunday. The foreign journalists were due to leave for Tawang on Saturday via Guwahati, but sources in the Ministry of External Affairs say their request for permissions are still under process

The Home Ministry will take a final decision on the journalists’ request under advice from the Ministry of External Affairs.

The sentiment in Arunachal Pradesh should have been well published.. Very dissapointing. At the least, they could have handpicked a few.

santoshriyer · Post by **santoshriyer** » 09 Nov 2009 10:52

They have said about a border build up of troops. Is there really any build up?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 09 Nov 2009 11:02

Muppalla wrote:By the way the monks play Cricket too. Sachin seems to be hero for Tawang Monks

I feel sad that only now the big loud voices of India are paying attention to the Indian-ness of Arunachalis.

disha · Post by **disha** » 09 Nov 2009 11:09

a_kumar wrote: The sentiment in Arunachal Pradesh should have been well published.. Very dissapointing. At the least, they could have handpicked a few.

Not necessarily. We do not need a clean chit from Unkle or Aunty for Arunachal Pradesh. Particularly when the leader of the west, the free and the president of the land of the free and brave himself chickened out.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Nov 2009 11:31

right - no need for certificates and drain inspectors reports from the gora crooks. send them packing from GAU itself.

PTI.
* Khandu, an army intelligence officer-turned-politician

STAFF WRITER 18:19 HRS IST

Itanagar, Oct 24 (PTI) The man who led Congress to a two-third majority in Arunachal Pradesh is a former army intelligence officer rewarded for his exploits during the Bangladesh war and turned a social activist before joining politics.

The 54-year-old Chief Minister, who was with Indian Army Intelligence Corps for seven years and received a gold medal for his services, turned his attention to providing basic amenities to people in the state and only began his political career as an anchal samiti member in 1980.

Analysts feel it was his reach among the people that helped him replace powerful Gegong Apang as Chief Minister who had ruled the tribal state for 23 years.

In 1982, Khandu led a cultural troupe to ASIAD in Delhi from his home district Tawang that won a silver medal.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 09 Nov 2009 11:35

disha wrote:
a_kumar wrote: The sentiment in Arunachal Pradesh should have been well published.. Very dissapointing. At the least, they could have handpicked a few.
Not necessarily. We do not need a clean chit from Unkle or Aunty for Arunachal Pradesh. Particularly when the leader of the west, the free and the president of the land of the free and brave himself chickened out.

Its not the matter of getting a clean chit! Nor is it a matter of pleading the western leaders.

It is very important to reach out to those good commentators/reporters who can spread your word.. for example.. We shouldn't underestimate the sentiment that a 26/11 garners for us or that small statement by a French judge. These are important.

I can see if GoI is selective in who it lets in, but a flat ban is IMO "dropping the ball" on a wonderful opportunity to get the word out.

santoshriyer · Post by **santoshriyer** » 09 Nov 2009 12:04

After Dalai Lama's rebuke, China breathes fire
9 Nov 2009, 1109 hrs IST
A day after both the Indian government and the Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama openly took a swipe at China, the Dragon has issued a veiled but audacious threat to India.

In its state-run paper the People's Daily, China has said that India seems to have forgotten the lessons of 1962 war.

In a provocative article lashing out at India, China also said that Dalai Lama was being used by the Indian government to further its own agenda.

Here is what the People's daily has said, warning of a potential war-like situation: "India may have forgotten the lesson of 1962, when its repeated provocation resulted in military clashes warning. India is on this wrong track again."

Attacking the Dalai Lama for his visit to Tawang, China has also accused the Indian government of using the Dalai Lama to push its own agenda and has once again warned that when the conflict gets sharper and sharper, the Chinese government will have to face it and solve it “in a way India has designed.”

"The Dalai Lama went to southern Tibet at this critical moment probably because of pressure from India. By doing so, he can please the country that has hosted him for years. The appearance and activities of the Dalai Lama in southern Tibet may foment anti-China sentiment among people living in the region. When the conflict gets sharper and sharper, the Chinese government will have to face it and solve it in a way India has designed,” a Chinese analyst Hu Shisheng, a researcher of Southern Asian studies at the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations, said Sunday (November 9).

“India may make use of the Dalai Lama to solve the decade-long territorial conflict by encouraging his visit to southern Tibet.”

“The appearance and activities of the Dalai Lama in southern Tibet may foment anti-China sentiment among people living in the region, Hu said.

During his visit to a remote, high-altitude Tibetan monastery in the southern Tibet region Sunday, the Dalai Lama spoke out against China and in a move unusual for him made a politically loaded statement.

"My stand that Tawang is an integral part of India has not changed", the Dalai Lama said in defence of his host country. On the Tibetan question, he said, “the Tibetan spirit in Tibet is very strong. On the other hand, China has taken a hard line.”

The visit took place amid reports of major military build-ups on both sides of the border.

On the other hand, foreign policy experts say India has stuck to its position even though the communist nation has been asserting itself on the issue.

Former National Security Advisor Brajesh Mishra said India has done what it had been doing on the issue in the past.

"India has done what it has been doing in the past. Chinese are asserting their position. Our stated position is that as long as Dalai Lama does not involve himself in political activity, he is free to visit any part of the country he wants," he said.

Mishra, however, added that the only new thing in the whole issue is that Chinese have strongly started asserting their position on the issue.

Asked whether India has strongly asserted its position on Arunachal Pradesh, he said, "neither have we strongly asserted nor we have made any new position. We have maintained our position."

Meanwhile Finance Minister has said the only way to solve disputes between the two countries was through tough dialogue. Mukherjee acknowledged that there were still certain issues between Indian and China pertaining to the border dispute. The minister, however, said all such disputes will be resolved with China through talks.

“The actual resolution of dispute is yet to take place and there is still some divergence of views,” he said adding India does not visualise any conflict on border issues with China and that bilateral trade between the two countries is expanding fast.

http://www.timesnow.tv/After-Dalai-Lama ... 331672.cms

Why is India saying that there is a military build up too. Yesterday Pillai has said that china is supplying arms to the maoists. As N Raoji said, Is something really brewing up? Comments welcomed. Philip saab and others

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 09 Nov 2009 13:45

KV Rao wrote:
Muppalla wrote:By the way the monks play Cricket too. Sachin seems to be hero for Tawang Monks

I feel sad that only now the big loud voices of India are paying attention to the Indian-ness of Arunachalis.

which is even more sad since cricket is a british game.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 09 Nov 2009 14:06

That Seymour hersh article mentions a Paki talking about the IAF training with Amrikis in the use of bunker busters. if this is true, then I am not so sure that it is targetted at pakistan's nuke program. I think these exercises probably serve to defeat HDBTs along the LAC.Moreover if the brahmos is actually deployed over there that's a positive step. i think Indians should realize that 'pre-emption' can mean an attack just as the PLA starts moving.

The chinese should understand that too. In fact, their deployment pattern suggests that they are relying on nukes just like the Russians do along the ussuri river. Despite all the infrastructure they probably can't support more than a few extra divisions in Tibet and the moment they try to bring them in, we'll bring in more. so the conventional strategy won't work. In 1962 for some incredibly stupid reason we had winded down our deployment in the run up to 1962. But even then in the western sector we won tactically.

The PLAAF hasn't seen any action in the last 30 years. it doesn't have exposure to modern air combat really. I will again refer to the fact that the IAF has been conducting a number of exercises with the Americans which has given it far greater exposure to the employment of PGMs, electronic attack, liasing with AWACS etc .Remember, that even South korea has only recently been mulling setting up the kind of instrumentation ranges required to train air warriors for 21st century warfare. Their current capability is solely due to their exposure in america. l so you can understand where the PLAAF stands. having shiny new flankers means nothing, if you haven't been able to realise the entire envelope.Moreover the PLAAF is not even stationed permanently in Tibet despite the lengthened runways etc etc.
They are relying on nukes and banking on our population centers being closer than their's.

These PLA types are also moving to the Puki strategy of 'holding nukes" and promoting ULFA, NDFB etc etc. Only this time we hold a decisive trump card- His holiness the Dalai Lama. And the Chinese should get off their bloody high horse of "teaching india a lesson'. They sound like school masters who have just made some money by giving tuitions on the side.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Nov 2009 16:16

@D Roy: On what basis is the following assertion ebing made?

Despite all the infrastructure they probably can't support more than a few extra divisions in Tibet and the moment they try to bring them in, we'll bring in more.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Nov 2009 17:00

Muppalla wrote:By the way the monks play Cricket too. Sachin seems to be hero for Tawang Monks

in these regions it is customary (but not obligatory) to send the eldest son of the family to the local monastery to become a lama.
since this happens at a very young age, these lamas are like any other kid their age, playing football or cricket whenever the senior lamas allow them !

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Nov 2009 17:33

The "F" mag has a pic of the drg of the PLAN's planned nuclear powered carrier,expected to arrive by the end of the next decade.A full scale training "carrier' on land is being set up by the Chinese ,indicating the seriousness with which they are planning for a fleet of nuclear powered carriers in the future.some years ago,a close friend,who knew the Chinese very well,said that they had discovered their strength,unlike India, and were effectively using it diplomatically.Right now the Chinese are vigorously flexing their muscles diplomatically in a very agressive manner.The next development will be when they use their military power,which has been revealed at their anniversary celebrations to have made massive strides all round,especially in the number and variety of ballistic and cruise missiles for both strategic and tactical ops.

IN case anyone thinks that the Chinese are afraid to use their military power,just reflect back upon the incident a year ago,when a US MRP (allegedly snooping at its new secret base at Hainan island) was forced down by the Chinese onto one of its air bases.The agressive patrolling by Chinese subs and warships against US and Japanese naval vessels is another indication that they do not care a hoot about their neighbours,the Spratlys Chinese "takeaway" is another fact of recent history.They will poke and pry into Indian territory to find out our weakest defences, once identified from where they will make their attacks and invade India.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Nov 2009 18:58

Oh Dear! It looks like the commissars of the PRC are taking their cue from "Gin & Tonic" and are hitting the bottle heavily in keeping with their leader's name! It throws up an insight into the true nature of the rulers of the PRC who put on a marionette show for the world,hiding the true nature of the PRC,where "some (drunken) pigs are more equal than others"!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 909261.ece

Chinese official Shen Hao found dead after alcohol-fuelled dinnerJane Macartney in Beijing

(baidu.com)
Mr Shen was found dead in bed. His landlady said he looked tired after the banquet
He was the Communist Party secretary of one of the most famous villages in China. He was ruddy-faced and jovial. Now, just 46, he has been found dead after an alcohol-fuelled dinner.

There is little doubt that Shen Hao is just the latest government official to fall a casualty to the mighty drinking sessions at the banquets that grease the wheels of both bureaucracy and business.

Mr Shen, head of the party in the village where a daring group of peasants launched land reforms 30 years ago, was found dead in his bed. There were no suspicions of foul play, according to officials.

He had been helped home the night before by other village officials after an evening of feasting and drinking with businessmen interested in investing in land at the remote, if renowned, community in central Anhui province.

Ma Jiaxian, his landlady, said: “He looked very tired and wanted to sleep.”

Another local official said Mr Shen had undergone a health check in April and was found to have heart problems. He said: “Shen has been busy with his job for a long time and didn’t attach too much importance to his health.”

In an interview with The Times just one year ago, Mr Shen explained how the village that was the birthplace of the land reforms that ended Chairman Mao’s commune system and led to China’s economic boom was still in the vanguard of change. The chain-smoking official had a ready smile. He described how he was already encouraging farmers to sign contracts assigning land to businesses or co-operatives for 30 years. “Our aim always is to raise the living standards of the farmers.”

An official in central Wuhan died of a heart attack this year after a drinking bout while entertaining. Another lapsed into a coma after similar boozing sessions.

One civil servant said: “Of course, you can choose not to drink. But it will be difficult when dealing with other officials. Drinking at the dinner table is an unspoken rule for doing business. We just have no choice.”

Guests at banquets are plied with fiery Chinese liquor so strong it burns the lips and tastes of a mix of petrol and coal. Diners who fail to comply with cries of “gan bei” or “Bottoms up” will risk making their host lose face.

About 500 billion yuan (£50 million) in public funds is spent each year on official banquets, much of that on the lethal “bai jiu” – or hard liquor. China consumes some five billion litres of liquor each year – mostly “bai jiu”.

More on HH's statements made at Tawang.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... adesh.html

Dalai Lama attacks China's claim of sovereignty over India's Arunachal Pradesh
The Dalai Lama, Tibet's spiritual leader, has attacked China's claim of sovereignty over India's Arunachal Pradesh, the Himalayan border state, and condemned the scale of its military presence in Tibet.

By Dean Nelson in New Delhi
Published: 1:46PM GMT 09 Nov 2009

His comments were made during his visit to Tawang, which has been strongly criticised by Beijing as an attempt to damage relations between India and China. It has also attacked India's prime minister, Manmohan Singh, for making a "provocative" visit to the state to campaign in local elections last month.

Speaking to his followers, the Dalai Lama declared that Arunachal Pradesh was an important part of India, and spoke emotionally about his attachment to the town were he first arrived when he fled China's invasion on Tibet in 1959.

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Dalai Lama visits disputed Indian border town, angering China
Dalai Lama visits disputed Tibetan border "My stand that Tawang is an integral part of India has not changed," he said, and recalled his relief at being met in the town on his arrival from Tibet by an Indian foreign ministry official.

"There was a feeling of hopelessness when I first came here in 1959. But I felt safe when I saw a long-time friend from the Indian foreign ministry waiting for me at the border. That is why I have visited Tawang so many times. People here take a genuine interest in Tibetan Buddhism and Buddhist culture. Right from Ladakh to Tawang, Tibetan Buddhism is practised traditionally," he said.

By contrast, in Beijing's Tibetan Autonomous Region across the border, Tibetans were facing "hard-line" policies from the government and surrounded by Chinese troops. "It's very difficult to say how much it has progressed since 1959. But the Tibetan spirit in Tibet is very strong. On the other hand China has taken a hard line. Recently I was in Japan where both Japanese and some Chinese who had visited Tibet said there are soldiers everywhere," he said.

His comments will further inflame Beijing's anger at the visit, not least his reference to Arunachal Pradesh and Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir being areas of strong Tibetan Buddhist influence.

China claims vast swathes of both areas as its own and rejects the 1913 Shimla Convention at which the Tibet government ceded Tawang to British India and agreed the McMahon Line as the border between India and China.

China now regards the McMahon line as its last disputed border and has escalated tensions over the issue to pressurise India to make new concessions.

Beijing renewed its attack on the Dalai Lama's visit yesterday accusing him of visiting the area at India's behest to bolster its claim to the area China calls "Southern Tibet". Its official media has also denounced him as a "liar" for comments on fear among his people in Tibet.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 09 Nov 2009 20:01

Uighurs seek a passage to India

Dangerous for India.. I remember the stance of Enqyoobuddin on whole Uighur uprising issue and find myself agreeing with him. Uighurs should not be given refuge in India.. After 10 years Uighur refugees will be "strategic assets" of TSP, if we do that..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Nov 2009 20:04

cover story on arunachal in latest outlooking magazine. makes for depressing reading.
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?262720

Perhaps this also explains the lack of development in the state, its decrepit roads and poor communication facilities. Ironically, in Arunachal’s border districts, the Airtel signal pops up on cellphones from towers located across the McMahon Line. These districts are yet to get similar mobile towers on the Indian side.

Likewise, a strategically important road such as the Tezpur-Tawang-Bum La highway resembles a dirt track. “How can a state that India claims is so important have such pathetic roads?” asks Dai. Lost on New Delhi is the fact that these are the very roads that 2,420 Indian army officers and soldiers died defending, fighting the Chinese with their bare hands after exhausting their ammunition. Says taxi driver Tsering Dondup, who takes 18 hours to cover the 465-km distance between Tawang and Tezpur, “A few trips on these roads are enough to condemn any vehicle. How do you expect people here to survive? We hear the Chinese have trains running to Tibet. Here, we can’t even build roads.”

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 09 Nov 2009 20:14

Ho ho ho ho! Pretty cocky!

"India may have forgotten the lesson of 1962, when its repeated provocation resulted in military clashes," a scholar told the Global Times anonymously, warning, "India is on this wrong track again."

Can the anonymous coward step forward please!
Didn't G.Fernandes name China?

Clearly, they aren't sure of their stance!

http://world.globaltimes.cn/asia-pacifi ... 83521.html

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Nov 2009 20:19

Singha wrote:cover story on arunachal in latest outlooking magazine. makes for depressing reading.
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?262720

Perhaps this also explains the lack of development in the state, its decrepit roads and poor communication facilities. Ironically, in Arunachal’s border districts, the Airtel signal pops up on cellphones from towers located across the McMahon Line. These districts are yet to get similar mobile towers on the Indian side.

Likewise, a strategically important road such as the Tezpur-Tawang-Bum La highway resembles a dirt track. “How can a state that India claims is so important have such pathetic roads?” asks Dai. Lost on New Delhi is the fact that these are the very roads that 2,420 Indian army officers and soldiers died defending, fighting the Chinese with their bare hands after exhausting their ammunition. Says taxi driver Tsering Dondup, who takes 18 hours to cover the 465-km distance between Tawang and Tezpur, “A few trips on these roads are enough to condemn any vehicle. How do you expect people here to survive? We hear the Chinese have trains running to Tibet. Here, we can’t even build roads.”

I don't know how Outlook writes such an article. The highway between Tezpur-Tawang is decent and the entire road trip is in Youtube. First off all one needs to understand these areas are not population centers and hence you will not need 6 laners. For the population/need of those areas, they are not bad.

AP people are gungho about their integration with India and the morons at Outlook cannot even gauge the mood there to write such drivel. They should be tried for treason or clandenstiley add them to the existing Madhu Koda list in his havala dairy. After the sleuth will take care of them and do the needful.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Nov 2009 20:44

Chiron wrote: Dangerous for India.. I remember the stance of Enqyoobuddin on whole Uighur uprising issue and find myself agreeing with him. Uighurs should not be given refuge in India.. After 10 years Uighur refugees will be "strategic assets" of TSP, if we do that..

More out of curiosity, does that not apply for Afghans too? And yet India has been a second home to them - for decades.

And Iranians too.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Nov 2009 20:50

Muppalla wrote: I don't know how Outlook writes such an article. The highway between Tezpur-Tawang is decent and the entire road trip is in Youtube. First off all one needs to understand these areas are not population centers and hence you will not need 6 laners. For the population/need of those areas, they are not bad.

AP people are gungho about their integration with India and the morons at Outlook cannot even gauge the mood there to write such drivel. They should be tried for treason or clandenstiley add them to the existing Madhu Koda list in his havala dairy. After the sleuth will take care of them and do the needful.

Are the current roads "all weather" roads?

There are two major types of "roads" - civilian and military. For instance EVERY intestate highway (road) in the US is under the defense department - no exception.

What India NEEDS is such a system all along the border areas - a very high quality system of roads (4 lanes at a minimum). NOT for the regional population, but solely for teh armed forces. Civilians can use them in times of peace for sure.

This thinking is some 80 years old!!!!!!!

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 09 Nov 2009 21:47

@rohitvats

during stride 2009 there were instances where chinese troops reached a spot via commercial carriers while there equipment was nowhere in sight! this exercise rather than demonstrate 'awesome' power projection capabilities as touted in the Indian media only served to show that they are novices in this game.

whereas india demonstrated its airlift capabilities during the sumdurung chu incident itself in 1987.As always people give weight to what the chinese parade rather than india's demonstrated capability. Any large scale movement on the train line and elsewhere will be monitored through various intel assets including space based SAR.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 09 Nov 2009 21:51

@D Roy: On what basis is the following assertion ebing made?

Quote:
Despite all the infrastructure they probably can't support more than a few extra divisions in Tibet and the moment they try to bring them in, we'll bring in more.

Mr Roy is correct. Cannot confirm this but the Chinese will not be able to sustain more than something like 4 divisions in Tibet in a fight against India. IIRC it's to do with supply lines from mainland. Chinese have only one major supply route into Tibet that too along very high and treacherous mountain passes. So it's easier for India to keep supply lines replenished than for China to do so, specially if we take the fight from the borders to deep inside Tibet.

However one thing mainly deters the Chinese in militarily engaging India openly today like in 62. Loss of face, H&D in case India does make military gains or gives the Chinese a whacking. Imagine the loss of face. Thats the deterrent. JMY/

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 09 Nov 2009 22:08

So India can take millions of Bangladeshis who voted to split India but should not take in a few (hundred) thousand Uighars?

India has NEVER said no to refugees.

It will be an assest to ensure the end of the Chinese empire.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 09 Nov 2009 22:22

They will be used by Pak/AQ. Need to be careful with them. If they seriously want refuge, then they should go to Turkey, since they speak Turkish.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 09 Nov 2009 22:25

NRao wrote:
Chiron wrote: Dangerous for India.. I remember the stance of Enqyoobuddin on whole Uighur uprising issue and find myself agreeing with him. Uighurs should not be given refuge in India.. After 10 years Uighur refugees will be "strategic assets" of TSP, if we do that..
More out of curiosity, does that not apply for Afghans too? And yet India has been a second home to them - for decades.

And Iranians too.

NRao ji,

Yes you are true about Afghans (Pathans). But, there is quite a difference between Pathans and other Central asians. I find them more vicious and savage than Pathans who are more influenced by North-Indian system of mercantile character by which the power is shared and distributed. Iran-India-China have had cordial relations with each other for most of the time in history. If they limit themselves within their natural frontiers (which they have most of the times), with Baluchistan, Tibet, Northern Afghanistan as neutral buffer states, things will be totally peaceful and wonderful.

Afghans (Pashtuns to be specific) have been under Indic influence lot more than Uighurs, Uzbeks. The experience of India regarding dealing with people from Khyber, Kapisa is ancient and time-tested and not always was it adversarial. Furthermore, Pathans have relationship with Punjab (today's pakjab) which is kind of love-hate relationship; although no punjabi king except Ranjit singh has went on to actually conquer Kapisa. It was usually the other way round. Furthermore, the relations of people from NWFP with people from Indian heartland (Gangetic plains) has always been more or less cordial. Even Abdali came to protect influence of Najib (nawab of doab and audh). Of course, every body has selfish interests.

India's eternal enemy has been the tribal mentality of central asia beyond Amu darya. This mentality has always been adversarial for India, both frontier provinces and heartland. Uighurs, Uzbeks, Tajiks, Kazaks, Turks, Mongols, Huns, Scythians, Kushans, invading tribes in battle of 10 kings in Rigveda (mostly), all were mostly from this region beyond Amu-Darya. Uighurs, Uzbeks, Tajiks, Turks and other central asians are good (for India and world) as long as Russia has tight leash on them and they remain in their region. When they try to move out of the central asian grasslands, Iran, China and India suffer the most. This is not the case with Pathans. Hence their case is different. Hence, Uighurs can be tactical allies for us, in modern times, when India has retreated lot behind her inner border (indus river). But this central asian mentality will never be a strategic ally of India.

Talking in terms of modern history, which is more relevant, Uighurs are influenced by Jihadi ideology and China fears that. Now, our adversarial relationship with China is tactical and not strategic or long term. If PoK is reconquered by India, PRC will stop being enemy of India. PRC bullies India just because they have an option of accessing IOR via a state called Pakistan within "India" which is not subservient to Indic core. If TSP is eliminated, they will have to deal with India for IOR access and India will gladly provide it to them on "INDIAN TERMS".

Until we have a reformed Hinduism to exert cultural coercive measures to Indianize Islam, Central Asians should not be allow within the heartland of Bhaarat. Personally, I even won't be much happy to see them in Afghanistan, Pashtoonistan and Pakjab, but it won't be bad either given the current state of affairs. The Dharmic path for India is that India brutally punishes all the a$$holes of pakjab, NWFP, Sindh and Bangladesh and show them who's the boss and their roots. Although it is tough, this is the right thing to do, in absence of other forces. Because that punishment, if given to them by India will result in their return to Indic fold. If that punishment is given to them by outsiders (central asians) it will further alienate them from Indic fold and too much of bad-blood to clean up later.

Now that India has lesser control on forces which are at play in that region, India will have to wait to get her righteous kill. Perhaps, events will unfold in such a way that India may have to tackle with forcible migrations of Uighurs due to oppression by PRC officials, something similar to 1971 war, from xinjiang under directive of PRC and TSPA. These migrants won't be similar to those from Tibet, Persia.

The best scenario for India is uighurs stay where they are, get "Moral support" from Indian government and continue to piss-off Chinese more and more.. They should not be allowed on Indian soil..

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Nov 2009 22:28

Chiron wrote:
Until we have a reformed Hinduism to exert cultural coercive measures to Indianize Islam, Central Asians should not be allow within the heartland of Bhaarat. The Dharmic path for India is that India brutally punishes all the a$$holes of pakjab, NWFP, Sindh and Bangladesh and show them who's the boss and their roots. Although it is tough, this is the right thing to do, in absence of other forces. Because that punishment, if given to them by India will result in their return to Indic fold. If that punishment is given to them by outsiders (central asians) it will further alienate them from Indic fold and too much of bad-blood to clean up later.

how can this be done

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 09 Nov 2009 22:33

Please keep discussions to the India-China topic. Digressions related to Hinduism, Islam and other topics will result in posts being moved to appropriate threads. Thanks.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 09 Nov 2009 22:40

Acharya ji, lets take this discussion to future strategic dhaaga..