MRCA News and Discussion

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RKumar

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by RKumar »

Jean_M wrote:Dassault doesn't add 40% margin on its foreign prices. Here is the problem: this kind of publication may lead uninformed people to think the contrary. I repeat, prices certainly went down as promised but not by that much.
I misunderstood Sarko for someone from this forum only. It was clear to me after this post. As usual short names create confusion. This information is published in French as well as in brazilian news papers, so India has nothing to do with it. And if you have any figure then please post it (will appricate with a link but without is also ok).
Jean_M wrote: By the way who's the arrogant one here ? We don't even know what was at stake in this upgrade. Do you remember that Israelis made a 50% cheaper proposal and were refused as well ?
Sorry, but I could not get what you are trying to say.
Jean_M wrote:As well as you, I do think that 41m$/plane is too much, but are prices the real problem/reason here ?
Thank you for agreeing on this one. For your question, Yes money is always biggest problem for a developing nation.
Baldev
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

"PHAZOTRON" technically ready to host the Indian tender
http://www.missiles.ru/_foto/AESA_Phaz- ... G_9706.jpg
As a result, the second version of APAA (2006) mass was increased to 220 kg, reduced pulse power to 5 watts per channel MRP (the whole station consumes 5.5 kW). I must say that 5 watts per channel - is the standard in the world, only at the American APG-77 - 7 W, and the Japanese MELCO - 3 Tues Constructiv MRP also changed several times and in 2008 together with "Micran" created 4-channel MRP new image, which is "gone" for flying model APAA.

Then in 2008 began flight tests on board the aircraft.. As of September this year, holds about 20 works (tests). Among them were the following. Three works from the ground to the target, resulting in a detection range shows a 61 - 72 km. During the phase of working out in the air on the goal of "MiG-29" holds 15 flights and demonstrated reliable security distance of 60 km (in PSA) and 148 km (PPP). Besides that, the two flight regimes of the Middle maneuverable fighting and a few works in the mode of the radar mapping with a resolution of 5 by 5 meters (hereinafter will be 1 x 1 m).Flight trials are continuing, the next it was on September 17, they are connected not with the practicing "gland" - it is finished, and with debugging. As a result, the sample AFAR FGA29 ( «Zhuk-AE", consisting RLPK-35) with a diameter of 500 mm shown on the plane-demonstrator sufficient range of - more than 130 km on target with EPR 5 square. Provided the number of targets - 30 (8-10 displayed on the indicator).
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... Mu0QOjPzuA
Jean_M
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Jean_M »

RKumar wrote:
Jean_M wrote: By the way who's the arrogant one here ? We don't even know what was at stake in this upgrade. Do you remember that Israelis made a 50% cheaper proposal and were refused as well ?
Sorry, but I could not get what you are trying to say.
I was saying this
Just let the IAF pilots enjoy its ride and then "Au Revoir" Rafale, Dassault & French.
can be perceived as arrogant when drawing conclusions on a deal of which we don't have the details.

I mean, why are French perceived as arrogant when you don't know if the price was fair or not ? If your MOD asked a top notch modernisation this may be justified. I don't need to remember you that the frame and engine account for 30 to 50% of the plane price, all the rest being electronics and software. For your information, when France modernised its M2K-C to M2K-5 standard (around year 2000), it cost more than 20m€ (30m$) per plane.
From what I've heard, India wanted M2k-5 MK2 which are more capable (air to ground) and have even more recent 5th gen systems, better computer and ECCMs from Rafale program. Add to this inflation since 2000 and here we are !

Still, I'm telling you this is too much: true, for planes that are left 10 to 15 years of service, Dassault should have presented lighter and cheaper upgrades. But our Israeli friends entered the game and did so. It seems their proposal didn't please your advisers and they were sent back home too. What did you want us to do ? Sell at loss ?
Why didn't your babus accept to review their requirements ? They surely did, in the end, they must have thought it would be a waste of money, that they should better leave M2Ks as they are and order more MMRCAs. (If I were arrogant, I'd tell them to think and decide about it earlier next time, so that it could be a valuable investment... - of course, you'd find french to tell you that, there are idiots everywhere.)

Of course, when you've been asking someone to work so long on that kind of deal (and have a bit of self esteem), you won't tell them raw "sorry, we changed our thoughts, forget that!". If, by the way, it can serve as a full fledged warning to the involved industrial for another tender, all the more the reason for the fun, pals !
As sellers, we are at fault for losing this opportunity. But it seems that to the point where things were, this was the better solution.

There's been quite a few reactions of that kind on BRF after the M2K announcement and I was growing tired of it (got better after telling this - haaa~). Anyway, sorry to have put that on you only but please try to think to foreign readers.
SaiK
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

^^^sheesh! is that translation or transliteration?

besides,.. the specs are still far from production variants.. must match APG77 or 2052s.

they can struggle all they want.. but they can focus those efforts for PAKFA.. if migs needs to win MRCA, they have to go with Elta 2052s and Saturn variant of the engine.
RKumar

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by RKumar »

Jean_M wrote: I mean, why are French perceived as arrogant when you don't know if the price was fair or not ?
I dont like to comment to nationalities.... except for India as I am being Indian.
Jean_M wrote: For your information, when France modernised its M2K-C to M2K-5 standard (around year 2000), it cost more than 20m€ (30m$) per plane. From what I've heard, India wanted M2k-5 MK2 which are more capable (air to ground) and have even more recent 5th gen systems, better computer and ECCMs from Rafale program. Add to this inflation since 2000 and here we are !
EU inflation is quite low less then 2 percent, so that will add nothing to the final amount. But as we both agree the price was not correct and it has nothing to do with MRCA..... so lets drop this topic here only.
Jean_M wrote:Why didn't your babus accept to review their requirements ? They surely did, in the end, they must have thought it would be a waste of money, that they should better leave M2Ks as they are and order more MMRCAs...
If you are working on somestuff we have to also do our homework so we also invest money, time and resources. We should not have buy-seller relationship, that will be OK for few times but not for long term. Our babus take care of Indian interest and your babus take care of French interest... so no hard feelings.
Jean_M wrote:As sellers, we are at fault for losing this opportunity. But it seems that to the point where things were, this was the better solution.
Rafale is my best bet but money is working against it. We dont want dassult to sell it at a loss but you should consider the numbers game. If you win MRCA, you will win many small orders without much efforts. A similar example is SU-30, got many orders after MKI. It will also be cheaper for you to enhance it as money and requirements will be coming from two different nations and geo-graphical places which will help it to improve much better for next 20-30 years. But it is my PoV.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

SaiK wrote:^^^sheesh! is that translation or transliteration?

besides,.. the specs are still far from production variants.. must match APG77 or 2052s.

they can struggle all they want.. but they can focus those efforts for PAKFA.. if migs needs to win MRCA, they have to go with Elta 2052s and Saturn variant of the engine.
and what are the specs of APG77 and 2052?

and why mig needs saturn engine?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Manish_Sharma »

RKumar wrote:Attitude is good but arrogance is bad. May be they dont want to maintain old planes so offer a price which is sky high. I dont mind a plane
- which cost 75 million $ (50 million Euros)
- Can fly from AC
- Can fly from Air base
- Can carry Nuclear weapon.
- Without strings attached unlike US

IMO... Eurofighter, Mig-35 and F-16 have the least chance to win... could be anyone of these F/A-18E/F, JAS 39 Gripen or Rafale

Already discussed here
RKumar they sold these planes for good money and it is their job to upgrade it. What do mean that "maybe they don't want to maintain old planes so they quote high price." When you take money that too selling on high price you have to maintain/upgrade its not depending on your moodswings.
Yes let's again buy Rafale with its wimpy 50kn dry thurst engine and peeny small nose and then again in 15-20 years Dassault may not want to maintain/upgrade it so will quote $%$#%trillion price for it. Good going.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

configurable:-
130 - 180kg
4 - 10KVA
64 targets tracking
perfect multi mode including SAR, real beam mapping, and doppler sharpening..

a 1500 mmic should easily take targets at 230-250km. well with in most missiles that migs can fire, plus addeded attraction it helps in firing astra and pythons as well, and perhaps of amirkhan origins as well in the future.


http://www.iai.co.il/33796-34455-en/ELTA.aspx
http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/4/36834.pdf

ong apg77, i don't have to tell.. depending on the antenna size, it can go from 230km(fighters) to 500km (bombers).

but only caveat is elta could have american tech in it., but we should have taken care of it with our LCA-MMR deal.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

why migs need saturn engine?, cause we have gone very big with bringing (buying with hard tax payers money) at koraput for MKI. Why buy another russian engine company again, which is no way superior than saturn ones.

the tech, know how, and expertise could be double uped if its all one company, and we have more leverage over the $$$$, and production engineering, making engines for both MKI and MRCA.

I am sure, there could at least 50% common core parts, though the size may differ. if we don't ToT, then we don't really care what engine, parts and comes from where, as long as specs are matching RFPs, and supports our logistics needs.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Jean_M wrote:I was saying this
Just let the IAF pilots enjoy its ride and then "Au Revoir" Rafale, Dassault & French.
can be perceived as arrogant when drawing conclusions on a deal of which we don't have the details.

I mean, why are French perceived as arrogant when you don't know if the price was fair or not ? If your MOD asked a top notch modernisation this may be justified. I don't need to remember you that the frame and engine account for 30 to 50% of the plane price, all the rest being electronics and software. For your information, when France modernised its M2K-C to M2K-5 standard (around year 2000), it cost more than 20m€ (30m$) per plane.
From what I've heard, India wanted M2k-5 MK2 which are more capable (air to ground) and have even more recent 5th gen systems, better computer and ECCMs from Rafale program. Add to this inflation since 2000 and here we are !

Still, I'm telling you this is too much: true, for planes that are left 10 to 15 years of service, Dassault should have presented lighter and cheaper upgrades. But our Israeli friends entered the game and did so. It seems their proposal didn't please your advisers and they were sent back home too. What did you want us to do ? Sell at loss ?
Why didn't your babus accept to review their requirements ? They surely did, in the end, they must have thought it would be a waste of money, that they should better leave M2Ks as they are and order more MMRCAs. (If I were arrogant, I'd tell them to think and decide about it earlier next time, so that it could be a valuable investment... - of course, you'd find french to tell you that, there are idiots everywhere.)

Of course, when you've been asking someone to work so long on that kind of deal (and have a bit of self esteem), you won't tell them raw "sorry, we changed our thoughts, forget that!". If, by the way, it can serve as a full fledged warning to the involved industrial for another tender, all the more the reason for the fun, pals !
As sellers, we are at fault for losing this opportunity. But it seems that to the point where things were, this was the better solution.

There's been quite a few reactions of that kind on BRF after the M2K announcement and I was growing tired of it (got better after telling this - haaa~). Anyway, sorry to have put that on you only but please try to think to foreign readers.
JeanM nobody is saying French are arrogant. I don't think it is right to stereotype a race or country as arrogant or cruel etc. Individuals can be arrogant, cowardly, angry etc. By the way was IAF/MOD asking for a new engine? I think this price itself was only for Radar/Avionics/maybe airframe. Certainly not the engine. Let's see such a huge and supermanuevering aircraft like su 30mki with a mix of israeli/french/indian avionics not to mention thurst vectoring engines is costing 30 million $s. And you want to justify 41 million $s for a radar/avionics upgrade which was not even a match for old mig 29s.

Ef2k is giving 60kn dry thurst engine, 70% made of composites + GaN AESA. Kuwait is going to fund the upgrade of Rafale engines for more power. Later if IAF wants to upgrade than they'll have to pay kuwait also obscene amount for new engines.

I predict today Rafale is not going to be chosen as MRCA. It's a bet if proven wrong I'll quit BRF howsoever painful it will be just as result of losing this bet.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

SaiK wrote:why migs need saturn engine?, cause we have gone very big with bringing (buying with hard tax payers money) at koraput for MKI. Why buy another russian engine company again, which is no way superior than saturn ones.
saturn engines can't be fitted to mig,just like f110 can't be fitted to f18
or if this is done both f18 and mig will become like unstable rocket due to increase in THRUST/WEIGHT ratio and i think this is pretty simple to understand

thrust/weight ration can not be increased beyond safe point
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

I did'nt say fit an existing one!?

for example al41f, the entire core is different for 117 for al31 geometry.
and they did it in 3-5 years time., and i have been wishing for this for mig35, since 5 years.
Baldev
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

SaiK wrote:configurable:-
130 - 180kg
4 - 10KVA
64 targets tracking
perfect multi mode including SAR, real beam mapping, and doppler sharpening..

a 1500 mmic should easily take targets at 230-250km. well with in most missiles that migs can fire, plus addeded attraction it helps in firing astra and pythons as well, and perhaps of amirkhan origins as well in the future.

ong apg77, i don't have to tell.. depending on the antenna size, it can go from 230km(fighters) to 500km (bombers).

but only caveat is elta could have american tech in it., but we should have taken care of it with our LCA-MMR deal.
to be honest talking about superiority of western equipment unless one knows exact specifications.

but western radar may have better t/r module technology but all radar needs to do scanning of sky/ground/sea and thats the whole point whether radar has 1 gen or 5 gen t/r modules or even PESA

as you already know that air to ground and air to sea detection ranges of
zhuk ae,me,mfe,msfe,mse, N001VE,BARS ARE ALMOST SAME but air to air range are different.

so its most possible that western aesa/slotted array radars also have similar air to ground and air to sea detection ranges but differ in air to air detection ranges.

mig will never have israeli aesa or saturn engines and this is the truth
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by arthuro »

UK test Pilot evaluate the Rafale F3
By Peter Collins

Most advanced Allied air forces now have operational fleets of fourth-generation fighters (defined by attributes such as being fly-by-wire, highly unstable, highly agile, net-centric, multi-weapon and multi-role assets).

These Western types include the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG. The Boeing F-15E and Lockheed Martin F-16 have an older heritage, but their latest upgrades give them similar multi-role mission capabilities. Of the above group, only the Super Hornet and Rafale M are capable of aircraft-carrier operations.

As these fourth-generation fighters' weapons, sensor systems and net-centric capabilities mature, the likelihood of export orders for such an operationally proven package becomes much more realistic.

EXCLUSIVE ACCESS

On behalf of Flight International, I became the first UK test pilot to evaluate the Rafale in its current F3 production standard, applicable to aircraft for both French air force and French navy frontline squadrons.


French air force Rafales have already seen action over Afghanistan

The "proof-of-concept" Rafale A first flew in 1986 as an aerodynamic study, leading to the programme's formal launch two years later. The slightly smaller single-seat Rafale C01 and two-seat B01 for the French air force and single-seat M01 and M02 prototypes for the navy flew from 1991.

The first production-standard Rafale flew in 1998, and entered service with the navy's 12F squadron at Landivisiau in 2004 in the F1 (air-to-air) standard. Deliveries of the air force's B- and C-model aircraft started in 2006 in the F2 standard, dubbed "omnirole" by Dassault. Since 2008, all Rafales have been delivered in the F3 standard, which adds reconnaissance pod integration and MBDA's ASMP-A nuclear weapon capability. All aircraft delivered in earlier production standards will be brought up to the F3 configuration over the next two years.


The French forces plan to purchase 294 Rafales: 234 for the air force and 60 for the navy. Their Rafales are set to replace seven legacy fighter types, and will remain as France's principal combat aircraft until at least 2040. To date, about 70 Rafales have been delivered, with a current production rate of 12 a year.

Rafale components and airframe sections are built at various Dassault facilities across France and assembled near Bordeaux, but maintained in design and engineering configuration "lockstep" using the virtual reality, Dassault-patented Catia database also used on the company's Falcon 7X business jet.

Rafale software upgrades are scheduled to take place every two years, a complete set of new-generation sensors is set for 2012 and a full mid-life upgrade is planned for 2020.

The Rafale was always designed as an aircraft capable of any air-to-ground, reconnaissance or nuclear strike mission, but retaining superb air-to-air performance and capabilities. Air force and navy examples have made three fully operational deployments to Afghanistan since 2005, giving the French forces unparalleled combat and logistical experience.

The commitments have also proved the aircraft's net-centric capabilities within the co-ordination required by coalition air forces and the command and control environment when delivering air support services to ground forces. Six Rafale Ms recently carried out a major joint exercise with the US Navy from the deck of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier the USS Theodore Roosevelt.


The Rafale M is the only carrier-capable fighter in production in Europe

The air force's B/C fighters have 80% commonality with the navy's Rafale M model, the main differences being the latter's navalised landing gear, arrestor hook and some fuselage longitudinal strengthening. Overall, the M is about 300kg (661lb) heavier than the B, and has 13 hardpoints, against the 14 found on air force examples.

'OMNIROLE' DESIGN

Dassault describes the Rafale as omnirole rather than multirole. This is derived from the wide variety of air-to-ground and air-to-air weapons, sensor pods and fuel tank combinations it can carry; the optimisation of aircraft materials and construction; and the full authority digital FBW controlling a highly agile (very aerodynamically unstable) platform.

This also gives the aircraft a massive centre of gravity range and allows for a huge combination of different mission stores to be carried, including the asymmetric loading of heavy stores, both laterally and longitudinally.

Other attributes include the wide range of smart and discrete sensors developed for the aircraft, and the way that the vast array of received information is "data fused" by a powerful central computer to reduce pilot workload when presented in the head-down, head-level and head-up displays.

The Rafale is designed for day or night covert low-level penetration, and can carry a maximum of 9.5t of external ordinance, equal to the much larger F-15E. With a basic empty weight of 10.3t, an internal fuel capacity of 4.7t and a maximum take-off weight of 24.5t, the Rafale can lift 140% of additional load, above its own empty weight, into combat.

Dassault Rafale General Arrangement

Added to the "active" elements of the aircraft's design are Rafale's "passive" safety features, which protect the pilot in various ways. These include "carefree handling" and automatic loss of control/airframe overstress protection allowed for by the digital flight control system (DFCS); the visual and audio low speed warning system; the continuously computed "deck awareness/ground watch" system with audio warning and HUD guidance for pull-out; and the pilot-initiated "spatial disorientation" automatic recovery mode from both nose high and nose low situations. Dassault also plans to introduce an automatic "g-loc" recovery mode.

The aircraft has been designed from the outset to take on any role (air, ground, reconnaissance and strike), but still have the flexibility to rapidly switch roles effectively once the sortie is under way if operational requirements change. Dassault calls this concept "fight and forget", which means that the Rafale pilot can concentrate on the tactical situation and weapons delivery, secure in the knowledge that the aircraft's systems are continually guarding his/her back.

Sensors integrated into the Rafale F3 standard include the Thales RBE2 radar, which gives multi-track air-to-air, ship track, terrain following radar (TFR) and synthetic aperture navigation modes. The RBE2 will be upgraded to a fully active electronically scanned array starting in 2012. Dassault's large ownership share of Thales means it can have significant influence on how the radar is tailored to the aircraft and how it can be exported.

The Spectra electronic countermeasures system is fully internal and provides radar warning receiver (RWR), active jamming, infrared missile approach warning, laser detection and chaff/flare. Data from Spectra is also "data fused" and fed into the pilot's tactical display. Additionally, the system can be rapidly reprogrammed by frontline ground technicians, as demonstrated operationally in Afghanistan.


The Rafale's FSO suite provides a passive detection capability

On the aircraft's nose is the front sector optronics (FSO) suite, comprising a high-magnification TV sensor for single-target identification, and an infrared search-and-track sensor for multiple target detection in a "ball type" housing. The Thales Optronique Damocles pod is used for laser designation and can also provide a forward-looking infrared picture into the HUD. The Reco NG/Areos reconnaissance pod, carried centreline, provides long-range optical IR/visual capability by day or night, with datalink transmission of the recorded data to a ground station. The data can also be viewed by the pilot in the cockpit.

Datalinks include NATO's Link 16 standard, the close air support (CAS) Mode M datalink (image) and the CAS Rover datalink (video). The Rafale system enables the pilot to display image or video on either left or right head-down lateral displays, or on the head-level display. The pilot can also choose the cockpit image from whatever sensor source he/she wants, to transmit to a forward air controller, rather than be bound by a single image type fixed to just one sensor pod.

PAYLOAD FLEXIBILITY

The main air-to-air weapon type is the IR or radar homing Mica missile from MBDA. France is also collaborating on the same firm's beyond-visual-range Meteor missile, planned for 2016. An internal 30mm cannon with 125 shells adds short-range firepower.

For interdiction, the long-range weapons carried include the ASMP-A missile and MBDA's modular Scalp-EG, and the main anti-shipping weapon is the MBDA AM39 Exocet. For ground attack, the Rafale is cleared to carry laser-guided bomb types GBU-12 and GBU-22, with GBU-24 planned from 2010.

Sagem's 113kg AASM bomb is the French equivalent of the USA's Boeing JDAM, but has an aft rocket booster for additional range and features GPS or IR terminal guidance. It allows for a pre-programmed individual ground target engagement per bomb and from a multiple release profile, with three carried per bomb rack. In Afghanistan, the French call the AASM "magic bombs".

The Rafale has five "wet" hardpoints for fuel tanks. All five can accept the 1,250-litre (330USgal) (fully supersonic) tank, and the inner three central hardpoints can accept the larger (up to M0.95) 2,000-litre tank. An enhancing feature is that the Rafale can also carry a buddy-buddy refuelling pod.

The cockpit is fully night vision goggle compatible. Pilot helmet-mounted display and direct voice input are available as customer options.

The aircraft is a close-coupled design with two large canards, four leading-edge slats, four trailing elevons and one rudder to optimise lift/drag and reduce side-slip in all flight phases. The hydraulic system powering the flying controls operates at over 345bar (5,000lb/in2). Its DFCS is Dassault designed and manufactured in-house, and is the digital development of the Mirage 2000's analogue FCS.

The new system is better able to map the allowable flight envelope and give the aircraft even higher flying qualities than those of the Mirage 2000. The DFCS has three independent digital channels, with the fourth back-up channel being one of main analogue channels from the Mirage 2000.

The DFCS is a "g" demand system with +9.0g/29° angle of attack (AoA) limit in air-to-air mode and +5.5g/20° AoA limit in both of the two air-to-ground/heavy stores modes (ST1 and ST2) to cater for forward or aft centre of gravity. The aircraft continuously "recognises" the load it carries, but indicates and leaves the final DFCS mode selection to the pilot. Minus g limit in all modes is -3.2.

Engines are two Snecma M88-2E4s generating a combined 22,500lb (100kN) of thrust dry and 34,000lb in full afterburner. Time from idle to full afterburner is just 4s at any altitude. The aircraft has a fixed flight refuelling probe and its canards and elevons operate in conjunction to act as a fully variable airbrake, with both features intended to save weight. Maximum speed is M1.8/750kt (1,390km/h), service ceiling 55,000ft (16,800m), and typical approach speed at mid-weight (15t) and 16° AoA an indicated 125kt.

Powerful carbon brakes allow for landing distances as short as 450m without the need for a brake parachute.

My evaluation aircraft was two-seat Rafale B number B301, the first production model to be delivered, which Dassault retains for test purposes. The cockpit was to full F3 standard, with just a small additional test control panel (telemetry) fitted in the front cockpit. The sortie was flown from Istres, near Marseilles.

I did not have time for any simulator, avionics bench or groundschool training. I received a 1.5h cockpit familiarisation on the ground in a Rafale at Dassault's Istres facility on the day before the evaluation. Other than this, I would fly the complete evaluation myself from the front cockpit. The ease and success with which I could fly and cope with such a massively capable fighter would be a clear indication of the Rafale's "fight and forget" design concept.

TEST OBJECTIVES

My evaluation objectives were threefold. Could the Rafale properly be termed "omnirole" with the range of its on-board sensors and weapons? Was the aircraft truly a fourth-generation fighter in terms of performance? And would its safety features keep me safe in such a demanding flight evaluation profile having had no time for any familiarisation in the simulator?

My safety pilot for the evaluation was Dassault Rafale project test pilot Olivier "Nino" Ferrer, an ex-French navy fighter pilot and highly experienced on Vought F-8 Crusaders and Dassault Super Etendards. A chase Mirage 2000 was used to provide close formation, air-to-air refuelling and tail-chase evaluation, and was flown by Philippe Duchateau, another Dassault project test pilot.

Pre-mission planning was carried out on a standard commercial computer laptop with access to the loaded program (confidential) protected by a security dongle inserted into the laptop USB. The mission plan was then downloaded onto a solid-state mil-spec memory card and loaded by the pilot via a panel on the left side of the aircraft.

I thought this straightforward but simple planning system was a very enhancing design feature, especially when the aircraft would be detached on operations or away from its main base on land-away.

I wore standard French flying clothing, including life preserver and g-suit. With the Rafale's Martin-Baker Mk16 ejection seat raked back at nearly 30°, the French have found there is no operational need for an upper-body pressure suit. Entry and exit to the B/C models is via a ground crew-positioned vertical ladder, but the M model has an integral drop-down step. Seat height and rudder pedal adjustment is electric, and the cockpit is a classic fighter "snug" fit, but with all the required flight switches forward of the 3-9 body line, it fitted me like a glove.

The single throttle and sidestick controller contain over 34 separate switches, many with multifunctions, but the main switches such as airbrake, radio telecommunications, auto pilot and auto throttle were "chunky" and easy to differentiate.

The left and right lateral head-down display screens were touch sensitive with additional L/R rotary and L/R finger switches to designate and control display modes. It is here, for some routine tasks, that a future direct voice input upgrade could be useful.

The head-level display (HLD) allowed for a wide-angle view of the tactical situation and is focused at infinity, so there is no need to refocus your eyes when scanning rapidly between head-up and head-level. Advances in display technology may enable a future HLD to retain the same advantages in a more flat panel display and give more cockpit space.

The wide-angle (30° x 20°) holographic HUD meant the displayed symbology was delightfully uncluttered and sharply focused and could be viewed completely without any head movement away from a design eye point position.

After the sideways-hinged canopy (designed to allow for unrestricted ejection seat removal if required) was closed electrically and with a rapid engine start using the auxiliary power unit completed, we were ready to taxi about 90s after engine stabilisation.

Taxi speed is easily controlled, because the residual ground thrust is limited by keeping both "mini-throttles" (acting as low-pressure cocks) in the "idle" position before setting them to "normal" for take-off. Ground steering was highly accurate and responsive, and the brakes were very smooth and progressive.

FULL AFTERBURNER

Our take-off mass was 16.1t (10.8t basic and 5.3t fuel) carrying one supersonic fuel tank centreline. Take-off was in full afterburner from the brakes and with a rotate of 125kt that came about 9s after brake release. Gear was retracted immediately after lift-off and afterburner cancelled at 250kt.

I was immediately aware after take-off of the sensitivity of the flight controls to any demand I made. The aircraft felt alive in my hands. I have never flown any aircraft that responded so instantly and so powerfully to stick input. The Mirage 2000 had previously been my favourite FBW aircraft in terms of handling qualities, but the Rafale with its DFCS betters it in every aspect of handling by a significant margin.

Climbing to 15,000ft into the test area was flown at 350kt, full afterburner and 35° nose-up. In air-to-ground DFCS Stores Position 1 (ST1) at 350kt, mild buffet was encountered at +4.5g with 4t of fuel. In full dry power, a wind-up turn showed that the aircraft could maintain 350kt at +5.0g with just 10° of nose-down pitch.

Later in the sortie at the lower fuel weight of 2t and 500kt, with the DFCS Stores Position set to air-to-air, the aircraft was pulled rapidly and effortlessly through to +9g and could be held there over a significant speed range. A final level acceleration from 200-500kt in full afterburner at 5,000ft and 1.8t fuel weight can only be described as brutal, with the aircraft increasing speed at about 30kt/s and the force of acceleration hurting my spine as I was pressed backwards against the ejection seat.

The steady state roll rate at 350kt was 270°/s and the roll onset felt rapid but comfortable. At 450kt, the same steady-state roll rate was achieved, but the rate of roll onset was simply staggering. I have never experienced any fighter aircraft start or stop to roll so quickly.

SAFETY FEATURES

The low-speed warning system was assessed by putting the aircraft into a 35° climb at 200kt at 15,000ft and closing the throttle. The HUD showed a "low speed" visual caution and the audio sounded "recover" as we went through about 100kt and flopped out.

The aircraft does feature an "anti-spin" switch but, to date, it has never been used, and even during the "spin phase" during development it proved resistant to spin even with the HUD indicated airspeed (shown in a video recording) falling to below 50kt in pro-spin manoeuvres.

The auto recovery button was evaluated and I activated it in nose-low and nose-high situations. The auto pilot and auto throttle instantly engaged to very positively roll and pull the aircraft (as required) to re-establish it in a 5° climb at 350kt. The system engagement was an impressive safety feature to recover from pilot disorientation.

Re-climbing to 25,000ft, the aircraft was put supersonic up to M1.2 in a shallow dive and then pulled back subsonic to M0.8 in a 4g turn with the throttle slammed closed. The manoeuvre was completely benign and with the canard/elevon airbrake function proving highly effective.

The formation and tail chase evaluation was initiated by locking up the Mirage 2000 chase aircraft on the RBE2 at over 55km (30nm) and identifying him visually using the FSO TV presented on the right lateral head-down display.

In close formation, I initially found the Rafale over-sensitive in pitch, but telemetry informed me that I was holding the sidestick too high up, and after changing my grip, I could hold echelon position without problem. However, it was another clear indication of just how agile the aircraft is.

In line astern, the refuel "RFL" DFCS switch was activated, which reduced the flight-control sensitivity and made the aircraft "feel" much more stable and conventional in response, much like a BAE Systems Hawk. With "RFL" selected, a pilot would find an in-flight refuelling probe contact to a tanker drogue to be routine.


The digital flight control system makes in-flight refuelling routine

Resetting the DFCS and with the warning system ensuring I had gone from ST1 to air-to-air mode, I dropped back to about 500m line astern on the Mirage for a short tail-chase. This just re-emphasised the power of the Rafale and the accuracy of its controls. The aircraft can be flown in a "bang-bang" manner between axes, rather than requiring "rolling pulls". The Rafale is an outstanding close-in dogfighter whenever it wants to be.

The final handling manoeuvre was to complete a low-speed loop in full afterburner starting from 170kt and maintaining 16° AoA. The loop was simple to fly and control and I used just over 2,000ft vertically to complete it: don't try that in a Panavia Tornado. Dassault says it may re-evaluate the fast jet format pitch ladder format to reduce pitch ladder "blur" at commanded high pitch rates.

I could not fault the carefree handling characteristics or the throttle response of the Rafale in any regime, and the only limit I ever had to remember in the flight was the gear limit (230kt). The Rafale was an absolute pleasure to fly, while remaining almost unbelievably responsive.

LOW-LEVEL RIDE

From medium level, I descended to low level and engaged the autopilot and autothrottle into covert terrain-following mode along our pre-planned mission route at 450kt/500ft above ground level (for noise abatement), first over the sea and then over the rugged terrain south-west of Arles.


The covert mode used a GPS database, but it can also use TF Radalt or the RBE2 TFR mode as back-up. Low-level ride was excellent in the gusty Mistral conditions, as was the accuracy of the TF profile followed by the aircraft over the semi-mountainous terrain, including flying towards sharply rising cliffs. The "ground watch" system painted a constantly updated escape profile floor in the HUD. With the TF engaged, Nino explained to me some more of the "data fused" symbology in the tactical HLD and altered the flight planned route and the time over target, which was then followed by the autopilot and autothrottle in speed mode.

At the same time, with both of us completely head-in and on TF autopilot, Nino locked up and the FSO TV identified airliners 10,000ft above us, and used the Spectra RWR to cue the FSO TV to do the same against a passing Mirage 2000 on a low-level mission.

Approaching the target, the release envelope ground "bubble" for the AASM was displayed in the tactical HLD, and "shoot" in the HUD. When within the AASM envelope, target bomb track is largely immaterial and, with the weapon button depressed and held, the five simulated programmed AASMs released to individual targets in a 0.5s separated salvo.

Breaking off from the attack run, I rejoined Istres for three visual circuits. The first two were "carrier" type and used the AT mode to hold 16° AOA around the final turn and which I found to be an excellent aid to reduce carrier pilot workload. The landing attitude in the flare from about 18° AoA while sitting on a seat raked back at 30° takes a little getting used to, because you tend to touch earlier than you expect.

The third circuit was flown aggressively at low level with manual throttle used around finals to a maximum braking effort landing using about 500m of runway to stop. The HUD approach symbology and especially the very rapid engine response made circuit flying simple. We shut down after a sortie of 1h 25min with 470kg of fuel.

DISTINCT ADVANTAGE

It is worth remembering that stealth-optimised, or fifth-generation fighters such as the Lockheed F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter are not only likely to be hugely expensive, but they can only preserve their stealth characteristics by carrying a very limited weapons load in their internal weapon bays.

Therefore, in the current and predicted financial defence climate, it could well be that so-called fourth-generation fighters will remain the aircraft of choice for most nations - perhaps even including the UK.

Moreover, the fact that the Rafale is the only European fighter in production that is carrier-capable gives it, in my opinion, a distinct advantage in any future export "fly-off" competition as a single combat type that can equip a country's air force and naval air arm.

In answer to my own evaluation objectives, it was obvious the Rafale has earned its omnirole definition, even though I barely scratched the surface of its sensor and weapon capabilities. The aircraft has an incredible level of performance befitting a fourth-generation type, and despite flying a highly complex and demanding evaluation sortie, I felt completely at home in the aircraft and retained full situational awareness. If it could keep me safe, it would also do the same for young first-tourist pilots coping with tactical operations.

The classic definitions of aircraft combat roles really do not do justice to this aircraft; the Rafale is Europe's force-multiplying "war-fighter" par excellence. It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown. Its operational deployments speak for themselves. If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale
.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... afale.html
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Raveen »

Baldev wrote: thrust/weight ration can not be increased beyond safe point

Not true, as long as the engine fits, the intake airflow is sufficient and the A/C structure can support the weight you can keep adding different engines with higher thrust. The issue remains that usable thrust has a limit simply because the airframe is designed with certain load and g limits that can/must not be exceeded.
Last edited by Raveen on 10 Nov 2009 02:47, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Jean_M »

Manish_Sharma wrote:I was saying this
JeanM nobody is saying French are arrogant. I don't think it is right to stereotype a race or country as arrogant or cruel etc. Individuals can be arrogant, cowardly, angry etc.
Let's forget the whole point, I must have been a bit paranoid and taken by the discussion. But when I read things like "Rafale with its wimpy 50kn dry thurst engine and peeny small nose", I'm furiously tempted to answer "Of course, you great one would do better ! would you like to speak of kaveri, dear friend ?" OK - let's stop hitting under the belt, right ?
By the way was IAF/MOD asking for a new engine? I think this price itself was only for Radar/Avionics/maybe airframe. Certainly not the engine. Let's see such a huge and supermanuevering aircraft like su 30mki with a mix of israeli/french/indian avionics not to mention thurst vectoring engines is costing 30 million $s. And you want to justify 41 million $s for a radar/avionics upgrade which was not even a match for old mig 29s.
Where did I speak of a new engine ?
Are you really aware of wat a 2000-5mk2 or 2000-9 is ? Rather than old Mig 29s, it's fitted to spare with MKIs.
Radar/avionics upgrade require to change the whole plane wiring The whole upgrade process usually take several months per plane. Would you have gone for it that you'd also have to buy a new weapon package (was it included in this price?)

Ef2k is giving 60kn dry thurst engine, 70% made of composites + GaN AESA. Kuwait is going to fund the upgrade of Rafale engines for more power. Later if IAF wants to upgrade than they'll have to pay kuwait also obscene amount for new engines.
I'm waiting to see a funded AESA for Ef2k. Ours is currently in production.
Actually, UAE (not kuwait) testers were impressed by the achievements of the current engine in hot weather conditions. We'll see if they go for a new one or not.

I predict today Rafale is not going to be chosen as MRCA. It's a bet if proven wrong I'll quit BRF howsoever painful it will be just as result of losing this bet.
Don't worry, I don't see Rafale well placed in MMRCA either (and you don't need to quit BRF as far as I'm concerned).
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by arthuro »

The classic definitions of aircraft combat roles really do not do justice to this aircraft; the Rafale is Europe's force-multiplying "war-fighter" par excellence. It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown. Its operational deployments speak for themselves. If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale. "
The Rafale is designed for day or night covert low-level penetration, and can carry a maximum of 9.5t of external ordinance, equal to the much larger F-15E. With a basic empty weight of 10.3t, an internal fuel capacity of 4.7t and a maximum take-off weight of 24.5t, the Rafale can lift 140% of additional load, above its own empty weight, into combat.
I was immediately aware after take-off of the sensitivity of the flight controls to any demand I made. The aircraft felt alive in my hands. I have never flown any aircraft that responded so instantly and so powerfully to stick input. The Mirage 2000 had previously been my favourite FBW aircraft in terms of handling qualities, but the Rafale with its DFCS betters it in every aspect of handling by a significant margin.

The steady state roll rate at 350kt was 270°/s and the roll onset felt rapid but comfortable. At 450kt, the same steady-state roll rate was achieved, but the rate of roll onset was simply staggering. I have never experienced any fighter aircraft start or stop to roll so quickly.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by srai »

RKumar wrote:...
If you win MRCA, you will win many small orders without much efforts. A similar example is SU-30, got many orders after MKI. It will also be cheaper for you to enhance it as money and requirements will be coming from two different nations and geo-graphical places which will help it to improve much better for next 20-30 years. But it is my PoV.
Apart from the initial 126 aircrafts (7 squadrons) for the MRCA contract, post 2022, it is likely 2 sqdns of Mirage-2000s and 3 sqdns of MiG-29s will be replaced by the MRCA winner. Then there is also the 5 sqdns of Jaguars that will also need to be replaced post 2022.

MRCA future orders (post 2022)
2 sqdns for Mirage-2000s replacement
3 sqdns for MiG-29s replacement
-------
Total: 5 sqdns (~90+ units @ 18 per sqdn)

Possible
5 sqdns for Jaguars replacement (so this is another ~90+ units @ 18 per sqdn)

It is likely PAK-FA (FGFA), LCA MK.III, and MRCA will be in local production and available to the IAF post 2022. So these replacements could come from any of these 3 types. By 2030, IAF's combat fleet will consist only of the FGFA, MKI, MRCA, and LCA.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

Raveen wrote:
Baldev wrote: thrust/weight ration can not be increased beyond safe point
Not true, as long as the engine fits, the intake airflow is sufficient and the A/C structure can support the weight you can keep adding different engines with higher thrust. The issue remains that usable thrust has a limit simply because the airframe is designed with certain load and g limits that can/must not be exceeded.
so whats the difference between 2 claims :?:
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Cain Marko »

Jean_M wrote: Don't worry, I don't see Rafale well placed in MMRCA either (and you don't need to quit BRF as far as I'm concerned).
Rest assured Jean, the Rafale may not be too well placed in the MRCA race but it shure is the hot fave on BR! :D

More importantly, irrespective of how the MRCA deals goes, the losers (French/Russians in all problity) will be compensated in other ways. I guess the French will get an order for additional scorps, possibly Lafayette class or even Mistrals. and rightly so imho.

CM.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Raveen »

Raveen wrote:
Baldev wrote: thrust/weight ration can not be increased beyond safe point
Not true, as long as the engine fits, the intake airflow is sufficient and the A/C structure can support the weight you can keep adding different engines with higher thrust. The issue remains that usable thrust has a limit simply because the airframe is designed with certain load and g limits that can/must not be exceeded.
Baldev wrote: so whats the difference between 2 claims :?:
The difference is the fact that there does not exist a 'safe-point' for T/W, in fact that there is no theoretical limit per say.
There exist other factors limiting the usable thrust, which is in no way the same as saying 'thrust/weight ration can not be increased beyond safe point'. It (T/W) can be increased to insane levels, but with existing aero tech there will invariably be airframe limitation dictating how much of that is useful.
RKumar

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by RKumar »

Manish_Sharma wrote:RKumar they sold these planes for good money and it is their job to upgrade it. What do mean that "maybe they don't want to maintain old planes so they quote high price." When you take money that too selling on high price you have to maintain/upgrade its not depending on your moodswings.
Yes let's again buy Rafale with its wimpy 50kn dry thurst engine and peeny small nose and then again in 15-20 years Dassault may not want to maintain/upgrade it so will quote $%$#%trillion price for it. Good going.
(Please show respect towards others even when we have different PoV. Hot headedness does not payoff very often.)

It is not their job to upgrade it, especially when lines are closed. Do you have access to the contract signed between the two parties where it is written that OEM has to provide support until end user is using it. Come on, that even does not come with software. So there is limited support, you can not expect having unlimited support.

As far price is concerned, next time before signing a contract someone should read it carefully for the final amount and support clauses. By going your logic,
what if US stops supplying spare parts? (list is long to mention GE engines, Support LCA ...etc)
What is Russia in middle, increase the price 3 fold?
What if Eurofighter does not do ToT like in Hawk deal?
What is France asks for ___ trillion $ for upgrade?
What if SABB goes bankrupt?
RKumar

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by RKumar »

Manish_Sharma wrote:I predict today Rafale is not going to be chosen as MRCA. It's a bet if proven wrong I'll quit BRF howsoever painful it will be just as result of losing this bet.
Oracle do go wrong 8) No one is betting against you, so you are the only winner/loser. It depends on you what you want to be.
Jean_M wrote:Don't worry, I don't see Rafale well placed in MMRCA either.
Rafale is the favorites amongst BRF, but again it is our views based on the Open domain info. IAF and MoD have the real information. So we do see Rafale well placed in MMRCA race. And all the best to rafale :D
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by sumshyam »

RKumar wrote: What if SABB goes bankrupt?
Well...then some one from India should buy it...and bring the technology here.... :idea: :idea: !!!
RKumar

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by RKumar »

sumshyam wrote:Well...then some one from India should buy it...and bring the technology here.... :idea: :idea: !!!
:rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

what all of you think of this,can someone explain this?

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3985/missilex.jpg
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Raveen »

Baldev wrote:what all of you think of this,can someone explain this?

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3985/missilex.jpg
I think this post doesn't belong here since it has no obvious relevance to either this thread or the preceding conversation. Thanks.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

Raveen wrote:
Baldev wrote:what all of you think of this,can someone explain this?

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3985/missilex.jpg
I think this post doesn't belong here since it has no obvious relevance to either this thread or the preceding conversation. Thanks.
this can be true only if india not going to buy weapons with aircrafts :D

talking of just aircrafts makes no sense and and weapons are as important as aircraft itself
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Raveen »

Baldev wrote:this can be true only if india not going to buy weapons with aircrafts :D

talking of just aircrafts makes no sense and and weapons are as important as aircraft itself
I was expecting nothing short of such amazing logic. India also buys boots for it's jawans, you can't wear boots without socks. Everyone knows you must wear boots in the Air Force. Here are links to some sock images, 'what all of you think of this,can someone explain this?'

:D

https://www.bianchiusa.com/magento/medi ... /J3480.jpg


Baldev, you haven't mentioned the name, type, use, origin (of course goes without saying it must be Russian since you posted it) or the A/c (from the MRCA competitors) that will carry/use it. If you seriously believe that is a "contribution" then per the same logic my socks are a contribution too!

As far as talking of weapons goes, all I see is a link without a name or any info and I definitely don't see any 'talk' in your post
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

Raveen wrote:
Baldev wrote:this can be true only if india not going to buy weapons with aircrafts :D

talking of just aircrafts makes no sense and and weapons are as important as aircraft itself
I was expecting nothing short of such amazing logic. India also buys boots for it's jawans, you can't wear boots without socks. Everyone knows you must wear boots in the Air Force. Here are links to some sock images, 'what all of you think of this,can someone explain this?'
:D
https://www.bianchiusa.com/magento/medi ... /J3480.jpg
Baldev, you haven't mentioned the name, type, use, origin (of course goes without saying it must be Russian since you posted it) or the A/c (from the MRCA competitors) that will carry/use it. If you seriously believe that is a "contribution" then per the same logic my socks are a contribution too!

As far as talking of weapons goes, all I see is a link without a name or any info and I definitely don't see any 'talk' in your post
you are saying as if you don't even know whats there in the picture.

if you have no answer don't worry someone else will have answer for that picture.

i posted that picture because if someone else has more info on this can share with others.

and talking of seekers on MRCA thread is perfectly legal too.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Raveen »

Baldev wrote:
Raveen wrote: I was expecting nothing short of such amazing logic. India also buys boots for it's jawans, you can't wear boots without socks. Everyone knows you must wear boots in the Air Force. Here are links to some sock images, 'what all of you think of this,can someone explain this?'
:D
https://www.bianchiusa.com/magento/medi ... /J3480.jpg
Baldev, you haven't mentioned the name, type, use, origin (of course goes without saying it must be Russian since you posted it) or the A/c (from the MRCA competitors) that will carry/use it. If you seriously believe that is a "contribution" then per the same logic my socks are a contribution too!

As far as talking of weapons goes, all I see is a link without a name or any info and I definitely don't see any 'talk' in your post
you are saying as if you don't even know whats there in the picture.

if you have no answer don't worry someone else will have answer for that picture.

i posted that picture because if someone else has more info on this can share with others.

and talking of seekers on MRCA thread is perfectly legal too.

You asked me what I thought : "what all of you think of this..."
so I told you what I thought of it. In fact my post began with "I think..."

You obviously just posted a link to picture and don't know anything about that missle or it's relevance to this MRCA competition.

Yes, your post is as relevant as my socks, enjoy!
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

99.9% of people on BR can recognize that whats in the posted picture at once and which aircraft supposed to carry that weapon so i don't need to say what is it?
and these people know very well how that picture is related to MRCA thread.

but there are still 0.1% people who can talk a lot on MRCA but can't even recognize weapons associated with each aircraft and this is bit peculiar.

for those 0.1% people i tell whats there is the picture,
thats KH31 missile head which supposed to be anti radiation missile and supposed to carry anti radiation missile seeker provided by AVTOMATIKA and same company providing 9B1032 seeker for R27 missiles

so if anyone out of 99% people on BR has more info on the seeker shown in picture please post.

only serious people need to answer,thanks
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Raveen »

Baldev wrote:
only serious people need to answer,thanks
Thank you clarifying that, I am very serious about what I said, I assure you. You asked for everyone's opinion and I gave you mine, you don't have to like it just like I don't like the SPAM like quality of your posts. I have learnt to live with it, believe it or not you will have to get used to me too (unless until you mention my name in your posts and ask me specifically not to respond. I will honor such a request).
Thanks.
but there are still 0.1% people who can talk a lot on MRCA but can't even recognize weapons associated with each aircraft and this is bit peculiar.
Yes, exactly! which is why those 0.1% people don't talk when they don't know (unlike others who post links irrespective of who talks). They only respond when they know or when thier opinion is sought! (as was the case with your post!)
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Manish_Sharma »

RKumar wrote: (Please show respect towards others even when we have different PoV. Hot headedness does not payoff very often.)

It is not their job to upgrade it, especially when lines are closed. Do you have access to the contract signed between the two parties where it is written that OEM has to provide support until end user is using it. Come on, that even does not come with software. So there is limited support, you can not expect having unlimited support.

As far price is concerned, next time before signing a contract someone should read it carefully for the final amount and support clauses. By going your logic,
what if US stops supplying spare parts? (list is long to mention GE engines, Support LCA ...etc)
What is Russia in middle, increase the price 3 fold?
What if Eurofighter does not do ToT like in Hawk deal?
What is France asks for ___ trillion $ for upgrade?
What if SABB goes bankrupt?
Well what does payoff? Who is here for a payoff?

:eek: Who's job it is to upgrade it then? Are you saying if we buy rafale now the french will be within their right to refuse the upgrade! Someone mentioned the price of EJ 200 is 10 million on this thread while GE 414 is 4 million $.
Now I would have understood if they were charging 41 million $s for RBE2 AESA on Mirage with M88-2 engine. But charging this obscene amount because of rewiring (which will be done in the few first planes in France the rest of work will be in HAL). Now imagine 197 crores for RDY 2 radar and avionics.

I don't know why my comment about Rafale Nose or engines is taken as if directed at a race, country or a person.

Far more nastier things have been said on my beloved Jet LCA Tejas but I don't go around saying it hurt my feelings or it is disrespectful. Many people criticize Kaveri project failure and I agree with them.

RKumar it takes guts to stake something on your convictions and ideas. I have staked something here by betting imagine the :rotfl: will be done by fanboys of rafale if it is chose while I'll very very sadly quit.

My favourites in MRCA are:
1.) Tejas
2.) Ef2k
3.) Mig 35

And still Gripen is the biggest no no in my list as it will adversely effect Tejas.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Raveen »

There is a new thread created per BRAdmin wishes. BRAdmins have also asked that everyone abide by the rules mentioned: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 64#p770164

BRAdmins have also requested enforcement by reporting violations by clicking on the the '!'.
Thank you for your cooperation.
RKumar

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by RKumar »

Manish_Sharma wrote:Well what does payoff? Who is here for a payoff?

:eek: Who's job it is to upgrade it then? Are you saying if we buy rafale now the french will be within their right to refuse the upgrade! Someone mentioned the price of EJ 200 is 10 million on this thread while GE 414 is 4 million $.
Now I would have understood if they were charging 41 million $s for RBE2 AESA on Mirage with M88-2 engine. But charging this obscene amount because of rewiring (which will be done in the few first planes in France the rest of work will be in HAL). Now imagine 197 crores for RDY 2 radar and avionics.
Once again ... for you
It is not their job to upgrade it, especially when lines are closed. Do you have access to the contract signed between the two parties where it is written that OEM has to provide support until end user is using it. Come on, that even does not come with software. So there is limited support, you can not expect having unlimited support.
Manish_Sharma wrote:Far more nastier things have been said on my beloved Jet LCA Tejas but I don't go around saying it hurt my feelings or it is disrespectful. Many people criticize Kaveri project failure and I agree with them.
You can not justify your nasty comments by saying I have said nastier things before aginst XYZ...
Manish_Sharma wrote:RKumar it takes guts to stake something on your convictions and ideas. I have staked something here by betting imagine the :rotfl: will be done by fanboys of rafale if it is chose while I'll very very sadly quit.
Saddly you dont read full post of others and start making comments by reading first line ... No one is betting against you, so you are the only winner/loser. It depends on you what you want to be. so for me it useless to argue with you. My definition of Guts is, say things politely and respectfully but it must be affirmative, actual, logical and concise. As per your say I dont have guts and I agree Murge ki ek hi tang hai (Chicken has only one leg)
narayana
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Joined: 27 Jun 2008 12:01

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by narayana »

BR is becoming venue for every day slugfest :(,admins need to do something, its happening with every thread
This Tu Tu Mein Mein should stop.
Kartik
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Posts: 5872
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

I saw this really detailed Gripen flight test article on the Flight Global website. was looking for something on the Gripen after reading the flight test article on the Rafale posted recently on their website. This is a very detailed flight test and the writer gives a very good description of the test points that he uses to evaluate the Gripen.

Notice that the date of the flight test was in 2000, and at that time, the Gripen twin seater was not a 9G aircraft (and may not be even now, probably at 8.5G) and it had lower alpha limits as well, which was to be improved to 26 deg AoA. We've all heard of the MiG-29 being 4g-limited with a centerline fuel tank, but it now turns out that even the Gripen is 5g-limited with a full centerline fuel tank and the g-limits improve as more and more fuel from the centerline tank is used up. on the MiG-29, with a centerline fuel tank, you couldn't go supersonic,and there was another problem- shell casings couldn't be ejected with a centerline fuel tank on and airbrake couldn't be operated.

I'm raising these points because many posters on BRF and other forums have in the past cribbed about the Tejas having only reached an AoA of 22 deg and 6G acceleration till it was last known a year or two back- we don't really know what part of the flight envelope it reached those limits at- and whether or not they have been crossed as yet. I really wish some TP of the Tejas program wrote such an in-depth article in Vayu Aerospace or some such magazine. But I know that wish won't come true, at least not in the near future till one of them retires.
DATE:08/02/00
SOURCE:Flight International
In the hot seat
Flight International's test pilot is the only person to have flown all three of Europe's fourth-generation fighters, the Eurofighter, Dassault Rafale and now, the Saab Gripen
Chris Yeo/Linköping

The problems confronting a fighter design team are broadly the same, whatever their nationality. The best solutions to maximise aerodynamic performance while minimising weight and cost depend on the technology available at the design freeze. It is no coincidence that Europe's three fighter aircraft, the Dassault Rafale, the Eurofighter and the Saab Gripen, are unstable canard delta designs with fly-by-wire flight-control systems (FCS), airframes with a high percentage of advanced structural materials and electronic display-dominated cockpits. The approach to detailed problems, however, such as integration as a weapon system, the pilot/aircraft interface and the incorporation into the national defence structure, varies considerably.

The Gripen, the latest in a series of Saab fighters for the Swedish air force, was specified and ordered into development before the end of the Cold War when Swedish national policy was one of neutrality. The systems' design addressed Swedish defence priorities in a logical way and was not influenced by NATO compatibility considerations.

The aircraft flown for this evaluation, a Swedish air force two-seat JAS39B, is the product of this design philosophy. After the Cold War ended, Swedish policy became one of co-operation with NATO, and Gripens will be modified to be interoperable. Saab, with BAE Systems, is pursuing export sales. These factors will markedly change the equipment and displays fitted to aircraft delivered to the Swedish air force after April 2002 and those destined for export customers.

Flying any high-performance fighter safely and efficiently requires careful preparation and thorough briefing. This was particularly so for this flight, as the Gripen evaluation was to be flown from the front cockpit, which had controls not available to the Saab test pilot, Magnus Ljungdahl, in the rear seat. Since these include the back-up throttle, engine fuel-control computer mechanical and electrical over-ride selections and emergency undercarriage lowering, all denoted by labels using Swedish acronyms, it can be appreciated that both pilots wanted to be assured that the evaluation pilot could react to an emergency quickly and without error.

The evaluation started in the simulator, where flight profiles and emergency procedures were rehearsed. As with any modern fighter, the Gripen makes use of hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS), and the simulator quickly allows familiarity, if not infallible dexterity, with the switches. The simulator provides a faithful mimic of the aircraft's control characteristics other than in-ground effect during landing.

Preparation also included flying clothing fitting, necessary for the pilots to communicate, to operate effectively at sustained high g and to survive an ejection into a cold sea. In the Gripen, the clothing includes immersion gloves and suit with air ventilation, calf-length boots incorporating leg restraints, a full-coverage lower body g suit, a jacket with arm restraint, flotation and survival aids, as well as an upper body g suit (counter pressure), a helmet (without chin strap) and mask. The equipment can be donned unaided in about 10min and is reasonably comfortable.

During the evaluation, ceiling and visibility were good, with an air temperature of 2°C, and a wind of 230°/14kt (25km/h) at Saab's Linköping test facility. The runway surface was dry, although there were some frost and ice patches on the parking apron. The aircraft's configuration was two dummy wingtip missiles, a full centreline 1,100 litre (290USsgal/ 880kg) fuel tank and full internal fuel (2,280kg). The empty mass was 7,100kg, making take-off weight around 10,600kg. The single-seat JAS39A Gripen is 0.7m (2.29ft) shorter, weighs 600kg (1,322lb) less and carries 120kg more internal fuel than the two-seater.

Compared with other fighters, the Gripen is a small aircraft and the whole airframe is visible during the walk-round inspection. The cockpit is also small, but well laid out, with essential operational controls readily to hand. Several switches at the back of the port console are difficult to access since downward vision is partly restricted by the flying clothing. These switches, however, are different in shape and action and are guarded, so there is little risk of inadvertent operation, although care is required when operating the seat raise and lower switch, which is tucked away at the rear of the console. Once strapped in, the cockpit is comfortable, with the three electronic head-down displays (HDDs) and head-up display (HUD) clearly visible.

Ground independence

Pre-start checks were brief. The electrically powered, sideways hinged canopy was lowered and locked down and the auxiliary power unit (APU) started. The APU provides hydraulic and electrical power, as well as air conditioning, and makes the aircraft independent of ground support for road operations. After bringing the electronic system and FCS on line, there was a 56s interval while the inertial navigation system initialised and aligned. After checking the throttle for full and free movement it was set to ground idle and the single Volvo RM12 engine started.

The start was smooth and rapid, with the engine soon idling at 60%/400°C. The after-start checks were simple as the utility systems are highly automated and little, if any, pilot intervention is either possible or necessary. There is, however, an extensive range of automatic built-in tests that are reported to the pilots, showing system functionality and serviceability. After a short delay while a final system finished its self-check, the aircraft was taxied to the runway 11 threshold. A small throttle movement to just above flight idle was necessary (ground idle opens the reheat nozzle to reduce thrust) to get the aircraft moving, but it taxied at ground idle. The nosewheel steering is scheduled with ground speed and is powerful and accurate; below 11kt, full nosewheel deflection is available and the aircraft can be turned in a small radius. The toe pedal-operated wheelbrakes react slightly abruptly to small movements, but were satisfactory in other respects.

Once lined up on the threshold, full dry power was set, with the wheelbrakes firmly applied. The left-hand electronic display includes a vertical scale indicating throttle angle and, on the ground only, actual thrust achieved as a percentage of the maximum that should be available. This is useful since the pilot can rapidly determine engine serviceability from a single display. The minimum acceptable achieved thrust for take-off was 90% on this occasion, and the engine stabilised at about 100%. The brakes were released and, as the aircraft moved forward, full reheat was selected by moving the throttle fully forward through a soft detent.

Reheat light-up was smooth and progressive and the Gripen accelerated rapidly. A nozzle area gauge is not fitted but, given the power-to-weight ratio of the aircraft, there was little doubt that reheat was functioning. Rotation speed is indicated in the HUD by a small vertical marker moving up towards the aircraft symbol. The stick was moved back at 134kt, almost full back stick was used to raise the nose and the aircraft left the ground at 154kt. It was hard to estimate the ground roll accurately, but it was around 600m. Once airborne, the aircraft was easy and natural to fly, with no sign of over-controlling. The undercarriage was retracted and reheat cancelled - both without any trim change. Altitude was gained at the best climb speed of 380kt to 9,000ft at a 15° climb angle. Start up, take-off and the climb to the cruise altitude used 14% internal fuel. Unfortunately, the HUD displays either indicated airspeed or Mach number, but not both. The automatic change-over point is close to the normal climb speed and it was necessary to refer to an HDD to obtain either Mach number or airspeed. It is usual to display both on a HUD, and this would improve the display and reduce the need to scan regularly across two instruments.

Display quality

En route to a rendezvous with another Gripen, a brief check of the FCS was made and the electronic displays viewed in bright sunlight. All displays were adequately bright and the writing quality excellent. The test aircraft's displays were green monochrome, although export and batch three aircraft will have colour displays - which will make it easier to assimilate the quantity of data available. The map alphanumerics remained north orientated, although the map was track orientated, making it more difficult than necessary to read the data. While this may not be a problem for a pilot flying over a familiar area, it did not aid rapid assimilation of map or datalink information.

The control column is a small centrally mounted "mini-stick" pivoted just below the pilot's hand. The aircraft was flown by wrist action for small movements, with the addition of some arm action for larger movements. It was comfortable and there was no tendency towards overcontrol or pilot-induced oscillation. The FCS provides neutral longitudinal static stability with the undercarriage up and positive static stability undercarriage down.

An examination of the air-to-surface and air-to-air weapon systems was planned. The first exercise was a simulated attack on a ship in the Baltic, using a Saab RBS15 sea-skimming missile targeted using information datalinked from another Gripen. The Swedish air force makes extensive use of air-to-air and air-to-ground datalinks - a key part of the strategy to share information widely between friendly forces. As the aircraft was positioned for the ship attack and throughout the rest of the flight, the map display showed the heights and tracks of traffic flying along an airway across southern Sweden, as well as two other Gripens. The position of the target was passed from the other aircraft and shown on our map display. The anti-ship missile was selected by a single switch action on the stick. Immediately, the missile's flightpath directly to the ship was marked on the HUD and HDD with maximum and minimum firing ranges and the start of sea-skimming mode. The missile could have been fired immediately as the maximum range was passed, but other options were provided such as introducing a waypoint into the missile's flightpath and adjusting the sea-skimming start point. The attack was set up with little radio discussion between the two aircraft. Such an attack poses a considerable problem to a ship's self-protection team as the missile is fired from a passive aircraft with an accurate target position and the missile can fly a non-direct track to the ship.

All Gripens are multirole. After completing the ship strike, the aircraft was reconfigured for the air-to-air role by pressing a single button. Our friendly wingman became hostile and was shown as such on the datalink display, although the attack system recognised the transponder as uniquely Swedish and indicated this. The target was designated as something of interest to the track-while-scan radar using a hand controller on top of the throttle.

The HOTAS is configured with weapons selection functions on the stick, while the throttle has two pistol grips. The upper has the sensor controls (radar range, scan angle and, in the future, forward-looking infrared) and the lower grip some of the navigation functions and the airbrake selector. This may sound complex, but it was not. While I did not become totally adept at manipulating the various buttons quickly, I could select most modes and functions when required. To engage the target, full dry thrust was set, the aircraft taken to 13,120ft and accelerated to a more tactical speed of M0.88. The target aircraft was clearly visible on the radar ahead and 1,640ft above, cruising at M0.7.

The first attack was made head-on with a Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM. The engagement zones, including the no-escape zones, were shown on the display ahead of each aircraft. The first missile was "fired" at an unrealistically close range of 15km (9 miles) and the aircraft was turned rapidly away from the target before reversing into a hard turn to astern of the target for a Raytheon AIM-9L Sidewinder shot. Changing missile types was a single switch action on the stick top that also reconfigured the HUD and radar. Pulling up towards the target at 4g/10°a (angle of attack) the missile attack was easy (against a quiescent enemy), but seeing the small Gripen with a commendably smoke-free exhaust was rather more difficult.

Gun attacks

Finally, the aircraft were closed for gun attacks (although only the single-seaters are equipped with a 27mm Mauser cannon) and the target ordered to manoeuvre. At this stage, the fuel remaining had decreased to 105% of internal fuel. At take-off mass, the aircraft was limited to 5g by the full external fuel tank. As the tank emptied below 200kg, the g-limit started to increase progressively to a maximum of 7.5g of the FCS standard tested. The two-seater's limit will be increased to 8.5g in the near future. As the gun tracking exercise began the g-limit was 7g. The g and incidence limits are regulated automatically by the FCS. A tracking exercise is a good test of an FCS since very small and precise changes of flightpath are necessary to keep the gun-aiming reference over the target - particularly when it is manoeuvring. An accurate sight picture was easy to maintain.

The final exercise with the other Gripen was to join for close formation in echelon starboard, echelon port and line astern, the latter being a reasonable simulation of that used for air-to-air refuelling. The lead aircraft flew through weaving manoeuvres of up to 90° of bank and 2-3g. The combination of the excellent flight control laws and rapid engine thrust response made position keeping straightforward.

The formation separated and, for the next few minutes, the other aircraft's progress back to the airfield could be monitored on the datalink display. The evaluation aircraft was taken to 26,230ft for a handling and performance examination. Some performance data normally given in a flight report is classified and was not recorded. Subjectively, the Gripen's performance is comparable to its peer group, with roll acceleration and roll rate perhaps superior.

The displays include many useful features. Two in particular were used at high level. The first is economical cruise speed shown on the HUD and HDD speed scales when selected by the pilot. The second is the corner velocity where the FCS will change from g-limiting to angle-of-attack limiting, which is always shown on the same speed scales. In this case, with 92% fuel remaining, the economical cruise speed was M0.78M/313kt and the corner velocity was M0.9, at which speed the airframe limits were 20°a and 7.3g. The HUD, with several differences from other Western displays, was clear and easy to interpret.

A steady climb and level-off, followed by level turns at 45í angle-of-bank (AOB), were easy to fly accurately. At full dry thrust (below the optimum speed), the aircraft comfortably sustained a 60° AOB turn. As the first FCS test at a limiting condition, the aircraft was accelerated to M0.8 and then aggressively turned, using a fairly rapid application of full back stick and full reheat. The aircraft was limited positively at 19°a/4.5g without overshooting. The final test at this height was to accelerate in full reheat to M0.95 and then close the throttle rapidly to idle while simultaneously extending the airbrakes. There were no trim changes and the aircraft remained easy to fly accurately.

The aggressive handling tests continued at 6,560ft, where the aircraft (with 73% fuel) flying at M0.9 was put into a full back stick turn, using maximum reheat. The FCS limited the aircraft to 7.5g at 9°a. The turn rate was impressive and, although there was some speed decrease, it was not excessive. The turn was repeated using less thrust and the stick held fully back so that, as the airspeed decreased, the FCS changed from g to incidence limiting. This occurred smoothly at 335kt. The g and incidence limits will be increased to 26°a and 8.5g (the single-seat aircraft will be limited to 9g) by updated FCS software due for release next year.

Full stick rolls through 360° were made at 1g, 3g and 5g at M0.8. The aircraft's roll acceleration and roll rate were unusually and impressively rapid at 1g and 3g, subjectively more than 200°/s. The roll rate decreased somewhat at 5g/7°a, but was still good. The position of the airbrakes can adversely affect directional stability of an aircraft, even if it does have an FCS, so a 360° roll was made with the airbrakes extended. There was no noticeable change in roll rate or acceleration. Rolls were not made at the incidence limit since the FCS software used during this flight was not cleared for rapid rolling at full back stick (ie, carefree handling). This restriction will be lifted with the next software release.

While still at 6,560ft, the aircraft was slowed in level flight with the undercarriage down to the minimum approved speed of 124kt; this equated to 17.5°a with 61% of fuel remaining. With the undercarriage down, the FCS introduces pseudo longitudinal static stability and it was necessary to trim the aircraft in pitch as one would do with a conventional aircraft. This is an excellent feature since the out-of-trim forces give a good tactile cue if the aircraft's speed varies from that trimmed for. This characteristic is a valuable aid during a high workload instrument approach. Handling during turns with the undercarriage down remained easy and pleasant and the aircraft could be flown accurately without difficulty. In this configuration, the incidence limit remains 19°a and continues to be automatically controlled, but a 3g limit must be observed by the pilot.

Finally, at 6,560ft, the aircraft was inverted at 350kt several times and a push-up made to -2.5g/-3°a, just below the -3g negative limit. A slight forward pressure on the stick was required for level inverted flight, but in all respects the handling remained excellent.

No fighter flight would be complete without a few aerobatics, so a couple of loops were flown using maximum dry thrust. Entering the manoeuvre at 384kt with 51% fuel and without seeking to maximise performance, the looping radius was 5,900ft, with a minimum speed over the top of 154kt. As only 4g was used and the incidence limit was not approached, this was a relaxed manoeuvre and the radius could easily have been reduced significantly.

It may be a surprise that remaining fuel quantity is quoted in percentage of full internal fuel, the measure used by the Swedish air force. I found this unusual system reasonably practical and fairly logical for a fighter that will almost always be completely refuelled. The Gripen, however, does not have a fuel-flow gauge, a facility I would miss in service, particularly during long sorties close to the range limit. To counter this argument, the navigation system continually calculates the fuel to complete the planned mission, perhaps rendering a flow meter desirable rather than essential.

The final part of the evaluation was at low level, 656ft, at a typical low-level cruise speed of 450kt. The conditions were clear, but there was moderate turbulence. The ride quality was good and it remained easy to fly in straight flight and in turns to 3.5g. The view from the cockpit is excellent and the environment comfortable. The HUD has a declutter mode to remove the less relevant symbology while at low level. A simulated pop-up rocket attack was made, turning left towards a small island to test the aircraft's tracking qualities through the low-level turbulence. These were found to be good.

We returned to Linköping, initially for an instrument approach, using the Tactical Instrument Landing System (TILS). From the pilot's point of view, this unique-to-Sweden system is much like a standard ILS with the localiser offset 3í from the runway centreline. The first part of the approach was made to a standard initial point using the aircraft's navigation system. Thereafter, the aircraft's receiver used the localiser and glidepath signals to drive a flight director in the HUD to guide the aircraft to a decision height of 197ft.

In addition, the computer used the localiser and glidepath to calculate that there was a small error in the navigation computer position and inserted a fix. The approach to the tactical instrument landing system initial point (TILS IP) was made at 297kt, reducing to the normal approach incidence of 12ía (154kt) on the glidepath. The autothrottle held the approach incidence within ±1° despite the moderate turbulence. The TILS provided accurate guidance to the decision height, at which point the aircraft was turned to the right to align with the runway and a touch-and-go made.

Strong ground effect

Three more circuits were flown. The final two used 14°a on the final approach, the incidence used for road landings. This reduced touchdown speed by 16kt. The aircraft was easy to fly around the visual pattern and could be placed accurately on the runway. In common with other delta aircraft, there was a strong ground effect when the aircraft was at a height of about one wingspan above the runway. This flattered the pilot by making each touchdown quite gentle, even when a firm landing - rather than a runway consuming float - was required. Clearly, with a little experience, accurate touchdowns at a good sink rate would be achieved consistently and without difficulty. The final landing used maximum brake effort from a 14ía approach. The brakes have touchdown protection, so the wheelbrakes were fully applied before landing. The landing distance was commendably short although the wheelbrakes snatched quite heavily just after touchdown, perhaps because the touchdown was not hard enough, and once again when reapplied during the landing roll. The Gripen is equipped with brakes on the nosewheels as well as the main wheels, the operation of which was transparent.

The final landing was made with 19% fuel remaining after a flight time of 1h 10min.

In summary, the Gripen was easy and very pleasant to fly. It has good performance and provides a comfortable working environment. The high level of utility systems automation has been well thought through and frees the pilot to get on with operational tasks. During this flight the aircraft and engine performed faultlessly. Although the tests of the operational systems were of necessity superficial, they served to show that the aircraft has a logically organised, competent and sophisticated weapon system that will allow use in the fighter, attack and reconnaissance roles. In particular, the datalinks are fully integrated into the weapon system and multiply the effectiveness of the aircraft.

The Block 3 developments should enhance the aircraft's capabilities and will make it a serious export contender. No aircraft is fault free, but the items that have been commented upon are either personal preference or minor and could be easily corrected. They do not detract from the favourable conclusion.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

just read in wsj paper, that EADS is pitching high for Eurofighter typhoon against f22 raptor for next week's dubhai air show.

can't get the online link from wsj.

anyways, sounds like we have a raptoriskie contending for mrca!.. a good buddy in a formation with sukhoi mkis in an awac scenario.. we need to know more of its capability (integration points/APIs that drdo can work on) in a net centric needs.
NRao
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Posts: 19329
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

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