Strategic leadership for the future of India - II

[Rahul Mehta]

How does Indian society make sure that it elects leaders who are capable and loyal to the country ?

Admins,

Can you change the title to Strategic Citizenry of India? i.e. what strategies citizens should deploy so that leaders = Nbjprie deter from becoming traitors?

===============

brihaspati: How do you define "loyalty to the country"?

Rahul Mehta: TRIVIAL.
1. Loyal to Constitution as interpreted by citizens (not judges)
2. Loyal to Indian citizens
3. hunts down external enemies
4. hunts down internal enemies - violent criminals, tax evaders and corrupt
5. No corruption

brihaspati : ...

1. "Interpretation of Constitution" by citizens will depend on individual citizens, or subgroups - there is no guarantee of uniformity of interpretation.

2. And you will also need to specify the order of preference/priority/precedence that exists between 1,2,3,4,5. Loyalty to an Indian citizen comes lower in priority when that citizen has been judged an "internal enemy" - 4 >>2 ? There can be cases where different ordering become necessary? Will not that ordering be itself the result of values not stated here? Can such value-systems be guaranteed to be uniform?

3. What is the resolution procedure for contradictions between two value-systems? If you really want to clarify, please do on NBJPRE thread.

1. When there is a 11 judge bench, there will be 11 interpretations of Constitution, and final resolution is done by majority vote. Same way, the citizens can resolve their difference via majority voting.

2. Yes. Different people may give different priorities amongst 1-5.

3. Majority vote, Jury (randomly chosen sample of citizenry) etc.

[enqyoob]

enqyoob wrote:
But then the collective wisdom of the voters may take India in directions that we may be completely unable to imagine.

Pullikeshi's response:

Yes, it did take Germany into the hands of a dictator!

True, but that fit the bill of "capable and loyal to the country" 400%, hey? Surely Hitler could not be faulted for lack of loyalty to himself and the Deutschland, and he was surely "capable"....

The trouble was lack of a truly free press in Germany. This is becoming increasingly true of the US. In India freedom of the press is not lacking, but how it is used is a different question. How can any honest media restrain themselves from when States and even the Center elect dynasties or petty thieves?

[Pulikeshi]

There were more than enough reasons for Germany!

<sarc alert begin>
Yeah, our Musharraf was +/-400% loyal and capable onlee.
There have indeed been a long line of such gentlemoon from TSP.
Perhaps, we have something yet to learn from our birathers on electing loyal and capable
<sarc alert end>

Democracy left to its own means will and often does find local minima as a stable point.
My point simbly being - if Democracy & Civic sense in India have to be improved -
there is sufficient thought western going back 500 years to borrow from.
Heck a quick read of Jefferson should suffice for the most part.

I still contend that we should focus on rebuilding the civilization that had thought leadership.
However, I may be the minority as we have still not finished arguing high school civics.
A result of the scientific coolie mindset inculcated by our finest institutions churning out clerks.

[RayC]

If loyalty and capability are the issues that confronts the leaders and the citizens, the main issue that come into focus is having a national identity and pride in one’s self and hence that would aggrandise into the pride for the country and hence loyalty to the country as also being more capable since self sacrifice would become a credo.

If one has a hard look at what is the state of India, then one cannot help but notice the deep fissures that permeates, be the sub nationalism, linguist jockeying, communal divides, not to forget the yawning gap between the haves and have nots.

Thus, the strategy that the leadership will have to adopt is to ensure that there is a strong national identity and pride in the Nation.

Pride can only be generated if the Nation does well. In India sloganeering alone sways the masses – Garibi Hatao, Aam Admin, Ma, Mati, Manush and there it is left after the votes are counted. Indians being a fatalistic class accepts this chicanery played upon them and so, there is no real foundation on which loyalty and capability can be built up. And so, we bumble along.

Pride and loyalty cannot be built overnight. It is a long process as can be observed in the manner how the Hans have built up their pride, which to many may appear misplaced. Since many here understand religions and history better than me, I wonder if they could trace the manner how the Hans could achieve this.

If China could do it, I wonder why we cannot!

[Umrao Das]

[quote Umarao Das]If someone (politician, Babu) takes royalty from undeworld(say Dawood Bahi) is his loyalty stained/questionable?
Can he not be excellent leaders otherwise?[/quote]

You tell us!

[vera_k]

If China could do it, I wonder why we cannot!

Come on. The Chinese are worthy of nothing but contempt. IMO, any people who end up killing between 40 and 70 million of their own people in the pursuit of "nationalistic" goals and then follow that up by having the State murder babies with saline injections into their head are not an example to be emulated.

And even after this they have failed to integrate the Muslims and Tibetans.

[RayC]

If China could do it, I wonder why we cannot!

Come on. The Chinese are worthy of nothing but contempt. IMO, any people who end up killing between 40 and 70 million of their own people in the pursuit of "nationalistic" goals and then follow that up by having the State murder babies with saline injections into their head are not an example to be emulated.

And even after this they have failed to integrate the Muslims and Tibetans.

You maybe right.

However, inspite of such rotten human rights and all that, the way they are at the Internet, their Olympic Flame fervour to include overseas Chinese and the showcasing of the Olympic Games, I keep wondering what makes them go!

And look at the confusion with our Commonwealth Games organisation and the way they have kept Bindra, the only Olympic Gold Medal winner of this country, out? The Chinese chap who lost to Bindra was weeping and he said he has let his country down! On the other hand our chaps are not concerned so long as they have had a free foreign jaunt! Look at our hockey state - the indisputable leaders can hardly get a berth in international do's, forget about the Olympics!

The strategy, as I see it, should be to make us Indians feel as ONE!

[Pulikeshi]

Journals of a Wily School

Notice even a desi chor has dharma!
Slightly out of topic - but illustrates a point that seems missing in this current season of BRF.

Diversity of human thought and action - like chori, loot-mar, dacaiti, terrorism, etc.
will remain as long as human societies remain - worse may even expand as urbanization
brings us to live in massive cities never before seen on the planet.

When we start out with incredulity at the existence of such activities
and try to fix ALL of societies ills -
what we usually end up with is page upon page of ad nauseam regurgitation.

(promise to get of my professorial soap box soon! )

The strategy, as I see it, should be to make us Indians feel as ONE!

ONE what?
My two paisa - that sentence is normative therefore prescriptive
it could potentially be your goal, but strategy?

[SwamyG]

Notice even a desi chor has dharma!

Back then, weren't the wars fought on the basis of dharma too?

[RayC]

If we can't be ONE.

And if we can't try to find ways to be ONE.

Then, what is the discussion all about?

Strategy?

Check the Han style how they made 'barbarians' Han!

[ramana]

Would creating a portal for Indian ex-servicemen and their families and interested people be a useful work?

We have so many web savvy experts here on BRF who can be involved in this task.

[RayC]

Would creating a portal for Indian ex-servicemen and their families and interested people be a useful work?

We have so many web savvy experts here on BRF who can be involved in this task.

Indeed, feasible.

What is your plan of action?

Rahul M is most net savvy!

[ramana]

Would creating a portal for Indian ex-servicemen and their families and interested people be a useful work?

We have so many web savvy experts here on BRF who can be involved in this task.

Indeed, feasible.

What is your plan of action?

Rahul M is most net savvy!

I was thinking of a web portal for Indian ex-servicemen that provides links to all the regimental histories and events like regimental get togethers, bada khanas, ex-servicemen associations, resources like : whom to contact to deal with babucracy- pensions, whatnot, a forum to provide a platform to air ex-servicemen/women issues. And a place for them to have their homepages or links to facebook type mileu. In essence a one stop place for Indian ex-servicepeople.

I want it setup in India and not outside.

[Abhi_G]

Strategy?

Check the Han style how they made 'barbarians' Han!

There is a difference here. The so called Mongols did not have an "ideological" center outside China. In India's case, invaders had well established ideological centers outside. That process you are alluding to had worked with the Huns who also invaded India. But if there is an ideology that repeatedly calls for destruction of the Indic, the case is different.

[vera_k]

However, inspite of such rotten human rights and all that, the way they are at the Internet, their Olympic Flame fervour to include overseas Chinese and the showcasing of the Olympic Games, I keep wondering what makes them go!

Let me put it differently then. Note that both of what is today Pakistan and Bangladesh held fewer people than the number of people killed by Mao. Would it have been okay for an Indian leader to impose genocide (like Mao did) after some Indians asked for Pakistan?

If Indian leadership followed Mao's Chinese prescriptions, there would not be a Pakistan problem today. Certainly Mao's example was there for all to see. So why did they not emulate Mao?

[RayC]

Strategy?

Check the Han style how they made 'barbarians' Han!

There is a difference here. The so called Mongols did not have an "ideological" center outside China. In India's case, invaders had well established ideological centers outside. That process you are alluding to had worked with the Huns who also invaded India. But if there is an ideology that repeatedly calls for destruction of the Indic, the case is different.

Mongols are not Hans.

Please check Chinese history!

[RayC]

However, inspite of such rotten human rights and all that, the way they are at the Internet, their Olympic Flame fervour to include overseas Chinese and the showcasing of the Olympic Games, I keep wondering what makes them go!

Let me put it differently then. Note that both of what is today Pakistan and Bangladesh held fewer people than the number of people killed by Mao. Would it have been okay for an Indian leader to impose genocide (like Mao did) after some Indians asked for Pakistan?

If Indian leadership followed Mao's Chinese prescriptions, there would not be a Pakistan problem today. Certainly Mao's example was there for all to see. So why did they not emulate Mao?

Han culture is not Mao's.

Read and we could discuss!

Indian leadership culd not have stopped the creation of Pakistan. It was British leadership!

[Abhi_G]

Barbarians did not have an external ideological center.

Huns did not have an external ideological center !

[RayC]

Barbarians did not have an external ideological center.

Huns did not have an external ideological center !

Unless you read, how can we discuss?

Who were the 'barbarians'?

How were they assimilated?

Why are they taken to be Han and they now believe so, when they are not?

[vera_k]

Han culture is not Mao's.

Read and we could discuss!

Uh, Mao suppressed all other cultures by promoting Han culture. You see this even today when the Tibetans and Uighurs are complaining about the Han influx.

Indian leadership culd not have stopped the creation of Pakistan. It was British leadership!

I should have been clearer. What of the period after the British left?

[enqyoob]

The functions that ramana suggested, seem eminently suited to the name "Bharat-Rakshak". Why can those portal functions not be conducted through the BR Main site or something linked off it?

Why does it matter that the server be located inside India? Probably the language/terminology must conform to Indian English, and I think the portal must serve the same essential content in at least 10 Indian languages when it is announced, covering most of India. Also, content input must be done by ppl who do good web searches of India.

Beyond that, the servers and urls can be mirrored, and there could be, for example, a www.bharat-rakshak.co.in assuming that there aren't other issues.

I am missing something here in the background/genesis of the suggestion, am I not?

[Sanku]

Indian leadership culd not have stopped the creation of Pakistan. It was British leadership!

Wrong the Indian leadership could have thawrted the British designs to create Pakistan.

British, could not have stopped, since they were those who wanted the creation why would they stop.

Indian could have stopped it.

Thus spake Shri Jaswant Singhiji as well.

[ramana]

The functions that ramana suggested, seem eminently suited to the name "Bharat-Rakshak". Why can those portal functions not be conducted through the BR Main site or something linked off it?

Why does it matter that the server be located inside India? Probably the language/terminology must conform to Indian English, and I think the portal must serve the same essential content in at least 10 Indian languages when it is announced, covering most of India. Also, content input must be done by ppl who do good web searches of India.

Beyond that, the servers and urls can be mirrored, and there could be, for example, a http://www.bharat-rakshak.co.in assuming that there aren't other issues.

I am missing something here in the background/genesis of the suggestion, am I not?

N^3, If BR becomes that portal then it will lose its 'civilian/afficinado' status and become a target for malicious propoganda (as if its not already ). And to make matters worse it will create mis-perception issues for the chatterati.

So as always I do think it thru.

[enqyoob]

Quoting Pullikesi:

I still contend that we should focus on rebuilding the civilization that had thought leadership.
However, I may be the minority as we have still not finished arguing high school civics.
A result of the scientific coolie mindset inculcated by our finest institutions churning out clerks.

Isn't there a disconnect between "thought leadership" and blaming the "scientific coolie mindset" for the lack thereof?

In the past 60 years, India has built some things - and those must be attributed to the success of the "coolies" not the "thought leaders". Traditionally in most countries throughout history, rapid development / growth comes either from

a) the military experience remaining after total war has destroyed all the pre-existing societal edifices and barriers. Such development is driven by generals-turned-statesmen, and they have the organizational skills and the mega-perspective that come of making life/death decisions that affect thousands, swiftly and with plenty of failures. So if they succeed they are praised as "decisive" and their mistakes are buried or cremated. So I call this Top-down Command Growth - China is an example. MOST of their industrial growth has been controlled by the PLA. Germany of the 1930s was another example, and these have much in common, frighteningly so. Ray's comments about the Beijing Olympics showcasing PRC advancements, reminded me of what Hitler tried to achieve through the 1936 Olympics. Chilling parallels.

b) Systematic growth of institutions. This is the example set by Rome, Britain and the US of A. The first two may have had top-down structures to begin, but later evolved very powerful institutions which even the Supreme Ruler dared not mess with. The US of A was clearly built up through institutions, not Supreme Leaders. These Institutions put in place the stability and pecking order that set the rules for businesses to thrive. Japan, post-WW2, has somewhat emulated the US system, courtesy of MacArthur's Administration Teams.

This model has failed dismally in Iraq so far, and in Pakistan for the past 60 years. Maybe in Pakistan it might have succeeded if they had started by completely demolishing the kleptocrat family and tribal power structures. Good thing they didn't.

But in none of the above, has the "thought leadership" come from scientific types. Thought Leadership always involves the capability to set up completely new rule structures and lateral thinking, and of course, most scientific training crushes such instincts and indeed, turns its products into "scientific coolies". Without a few million such "coolies" the Thought Leaders might as well be called ***t Leaders for all the effectiveness they can achieve. But in the best of conditions, the Thought Leadership evolves from studying history, the Classics, developing catchy sales pitches, and making impassioned speeches to gullible audiences, and looking photogenic/telegenic while uttering pompous garbage.

Scientific training disses all such stuff as being irrelevant to problem-solving.

So it is futile to look for Thought Leaders among the scientific coolies, true, but equally futile to blame the institutions that succeed in turning out the sc's for the failure of those that are SUPPOSED to turn out Thought Leaders.

Where are the Generals that can inspire the masses? Where are the Lawyers? Or at least the billionaires who can inspire?

[enqyoob]

ramana: Interesting point. I must confess that I have never seen the point of the "civilian afficionado" except to kill time. The forum does that for me, fine.

So I am not speaking of the forum here - I am saying that the "BR" Main Site, since it already contains so much accurate info on the history and traditions of the military, can as well have portal functions to a whole host of useful services. The fact that it is run by civilians should be only to the good, because it leaves the denizens free to air concerns about the Babucracy.

In the US at airports these days, there is a (civilian) team stationed at the entry to Baggage Claim, to greet every soldier in uniform arriving. A round of applause, and then they come up and provide assistance and guidance. I am not sure how deep this service goes, but it occurs to me that the intensity of conflict in Eyerak and FakAp is not really that much worse than that in the Northeast, in Arunachal or J&K, and what do the soldiers coming home from those see at the railway station?

Civilian support is all-important.

[Jarita]

Belief of one of our twittery leaders

Tharoor has lectured widely on India, and is often quoted for his observations, including, "India is not, as people keep calling it, an underdeveloped country, but rather, in the context of its history and cultural heritage, a highly developed one in an advanced state of decay."

Question: Are phoren biwis allowed for Indian MPs (when phoren biwis have not taken up desi citizenship)

[enqyoob]

Question: Are phoren biwis allowed for Indian MPs (when phoren biwis have not taken up desi citizenship)

Under the Constitution, what reason would you give for disallowing that? Would you allow Patis 4 MPs? why assume that MP is a "he"? Those who elect the MP are electing him/her to office to do a job, not marrying or dating him/her, hey? If the voters don't mind the fact that s(he) is married to someone who is not an Indian citizen, then whose business is it?

Security Clearance may be a slight issue, but then ppl with top Security Clearance (such as Mantris) have been rumored to sell secrets for a bottle of whisky, which I hope is less expensive than marrying?

As for Tharoor, my main takleef with him is that anyone who allows that old photo of himself to be published, has to be a prissy wimp. And he tends to confirm that impression with every statement. Hope his biwi has more substance (was she his secretary?) because someday she may very well be President of the Indian National Congress.... she has the right qualifications.

[vera_k]

Western and now the Chinese are being seen as worthy of emulation. But these cultures used state sponsored genocide as a means of growing territory and stamping out dissent.

So I ask this: Is the Indian leadership at fault for not emulating the West and the Chinese in this respect? Are the Indian people at fault for not selecting ruthless leaders? Is the urge to "accomodate" all comers something that needs to be dispensed with?

[ramana]

Western and now the Chinese are being seen as worthy of emulation. But these cultures used state sponsored genocide as a means of growing territory and stamping out dissent.

So I ask this: Is the Indian leadership at fault for not emulating the West and the Chinese in this respect? Are the Indian people at fault for not selecting ruthless leaders? Is the urge to "accomodate" all comers something that needs to be dispensed with?

Non-sequitor. Those two examples are that of strong homogenous groups that came to the top with an underlaying cultural mileu.

It doesnt work in India. Besides gains using strong arm tactics are temporary. See the history of India and see how long the gains lasted strating from Maurayans?

[vera_k]

In the Western case, Christianity was the underlying glue. Mao used Communist ideology for a similar unifying purpose. Note that both were spread by not exactly peaceful means. I don't see why this would not work in India if the state picked an ideology and rammed it down people's throats. Sure, it may take a 100 years, but it'd get done.

[Jarita]

Question: Are phoren biwis allowed for Indian MPs (when phoren biwis have not taken up desi citizenship)

Under the Constitution, what reason would you give for disallowing that? Would you allow Patis 4 MPs? why assume that MP is a "he"? Those who elect the MP are electing him/her to office to do a job, not marrying or dating him/her, hey? If the voters don't mind the fact that s(he) is married to someone who is not an Indian citizen, then whose business is it?

Security Clearance may be a slight issue, but then ppl with top Security Clearance (such as Mantris) have been rumored to sell secrets for a bottle of whisky, which I hope is less expensive than marrying?

As for Tharoor, my main takleef with him is that anyone who allows that old photo of himself to be published, has to be a prissy wimp. And he tends to confirm that impression with every statement. Hope his biwi has more substance (was she his secretary?) because someday she may very well be President of the Indian National Congress.... she has the right qualifications.

Either patis or biwis, it is not just a question of selling a secret but long drawn influence. India is not US or another banana republic. MP should not have spouse with phoren citizenship to begin with. Tomorrow, XYZ will have a pakistani citizen and we will accept it? Given the stage the country is in we need to take all precautions. Many a biwis have influenced their patis and vice versa.

Christa is based in New York and is the Deputy Secretary of the UN Disarmament Commission
The United Nations Disarmament Commission (UNDC)

The United Nations Disarmament Commission (UNDC) is a deliberative body and a subsidiary organ of the UN General Assembly which is mandated to consider and make recommendations on various disarmament related issues and to follow up the relevant decisions and recommendations of the special sessions devoted to disarmament held so far.

The Disarmament Commission was re-established at the first Special Session of the General Assembly devoted to Disarmament in 1978 to succeed an earlier Disarmament Commission, which ceased to convene after 1965. It consists of all Member States and holds its substantive yearly sessions in New York (usually in late spring) for approximately three weeks. The Commission reports annually to the General Assembly.

Since 1978, the Disarmament Commission has dealt with numerous disarmament related questions, both nuclear and conventional, and has submitted guidelines and principles on various subject items, including guidelines for appropriate types of confidence-building measures, guidelines and recommendations for regional approaches to disarmament within the context of global security, and guidelines and recommendations for objective information on military matters.

[enqyoob]

Either patis or biwis, it is not just a question of selling a secret but long drawn influence. India is not US or another banana republic. MP should not have spouse with phoren citizenship to begin with. Tomorrow, XYZ will have a pakistani citizen and we will accept it? Given the stage the country is in we need to take all precautions. Many a biwis have influenced their patis and vice versa.

The whole idea of a Constitution and a Democracy is that the Government is Of the People, By the People, For the People. It is not for arbitrary decisions, and the government has absolutely no business interfering in the personal lives of the citizens unless there is some very pressing need, justified by law per the Constitution. Otherwise we have Pakistan, or, as you put it, a banana republic.

I don't see what India not being USA has to do with it. The US has a prohibition against foreign-born (even Naturalized) citizens becoming President. Presumably, this also applies to the Vice President because s(he) is one musharraf away from the Presidency. But no one else has any such constraint. You can be a State Governor, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Director of Intelligence, Senator, or Supreme Court Chief Justice, and be foreign-born.

Whom any of these people marries is strictly their business, and why should be otherwise? They may not be elected if the voters don't trust their biwi/pati, but that's it.

You may be falling into the trap of trying to set General Laws (or worse, Ordinances) to deal with specific cases. In the Tharoor case, the proper recourse is that the voters vote him out if they are uncomfortable with his presumed loyalty etc. But there is a very good chance that the electorate in his constituency trusts him AND his foreign Biwi a whole lot more than they trust the Comrades whom they voted out to elect him. Why should an Indian-born, Indian citizen Chinese agent be preferred to a person who marries an Indian out of love?

Same way that the electorate in Rae Bareili, time and again, sweeps Sonia Gandhi back to power, and all the rabble-rousers lose their Deposits. And the INC voters somehow also trust Soniaji over all the desi-born, khadar/Nehru cap wearing crooks. I can't say that I disagree with the wisdom of the electorate in any of these things.

In India ppl have this idea that other people's personal affairs, esp. in marriage, is somehow society's business to dictate. That is really a Pakistani notion.

[Pulikeshi]

In the past 60 years, India has built some things - and those must be attributed to the success of the "coolies" not the "thought leaders".

You bring up an interesting point, but here is some clarity. The initial success of India was due to "thought leaders", whatever be their other failings. Be it Nehru or Patel, or even Gandhi, we were blessed to have men and women of vision. While, I have not been shy to criticize them every occasion I get, it would be remiss of me to acknowledge their genius.

That said, the "Social Kinder" generation - so called by me as many of these kids were outputs of parents who worked in PSUs have indeed become "Scientific Coolies". This generation has overall been able to achieve some amazing things individually, but collectively their impact on India has been insignificant. What has their social network done for India, other than call for peace with TSP at a critical moment?

There has been a lot of research on mintzberg's machine bureaucracy and social networks and the Chinese model is an example of the former and India is an example of the latter. However, the effectiveness of either model can be questioned outside of narrow scaffold they seem to work extremely well within. The more interesting question for me is can purely secular thought leadership see Tibet, for example, as a sister civilization worth saving, rather than a bland view that the region holds India's major water source. Even the hypersensitivity in maintaining the entity of TSP intact can be attributed to this bland secular thinking - where one sees the world in a legal, scientific terms, rather than artistic, creative normative terms - that require one to imagine the what if -

The key to breaking the rules is to know what they are better than anyone else.
India and its present leadership is guilty of pusillanimity in vision primarily because it looks at the world with a view to solving problems, not creating them, to peace, not in creating conflict, to conciliation, not in exacerbation, to non-proliferation, not in proliferation, etc.
Not necessarily bad, but mostly short of good leadership.

Notice for example there are world class Technology and Management schools in India, but there are no such examples (that I know of) for leadership - ala Yale, Harvard & Stanford - roles they play from Divinity to Politics.

Just my timepass -

[RayC]

Uh, Mao suppressed all other cultures by promoting Han culture. You see this even today when the Tibetans and Uighurs are complaining about the Han influx.

The Han culture and its orgin and expansion.

Han culturism differentiates between the culture of the Han, the inner people (nei ren) and the barbarians, the outer people (wai ren). This concept is a hand me down from the time of the Shang Dynasty, who political centre was located North of the Yellow River.

The Chinese differentiate between raw barbarians (shengfan) or the unassimilated people and the “cooked barbarians” (shufan) or those who were assimilated and yet were not the Han people e.g. the Han Chinese separated the ‘cooked’ Li of the coast of Hainan from the ‘uncooked’ Li of the central forest.

Barbarians were given generic names in the Chinese classics and histories: the Yi barbarians to the East, the Man to the South, Rong to the West and Di to the North.

Until the 1930s, the names of the outgroups (wai ren) were commonly written in characters with the animal radical: the Di, a northern tribe were linked to the dog; the Man and Min of the South were characterised with reptiles; the Qiangs were written with a sheep radical. This reflected the Han Chinese conviction that civilisation and culture were linked with humanity; alien groups living outside the pale of Han society were regarded as inhuman savages.

The custom of sharply distinguishing between the inner and outer people went along with the calling China the Middle Kingdom (zhong guo) , which began by ruling the Central plain (zhongyang) in North China. Rather than using outright military conquest, the theory of ‘using the Chinese ways to transform the barbarians (yongxiabianyi)’ was promulgated. By cultural absorption or racial integration through intermarriage, a barbarian could become a Han Chinese (Hanhua).

Excerpted from:

An Ethnohistorical Dictionary of China
http://books.google.com/books?id=IOM8qF ... t#PPA95,M1




It started with the Shang Dynasty 1750 - 1040BC.

Tibetan and Uighurs would be classified as 'barbarians'.

China may have had a ruthless leader like Mao and even the current lot are no better, but is the Han pride that makes the country tick.

Western or Chinese culture does not have to be emulated, but the manner the Han culture has spread could be studied and adapted to Indian needs since we are still floundering and going nowhere.

Indian culture and background is illustrious, but we have been subjugated many a time. Even now, we are subjected to pressures from foreign entities including small countries like Pakistan. To my mind, the rich heritage that we have has not helped tide us over the problems or propel us to be masters of our Fate?

The issue is as I see it is we have to find our rightful place in the sun. We cannot go into philosophical discourses as a nation or as a people and continue to flounder. It is time to act.



JMT

[Jarita]

Whom any of these people marries is strictly their business, and why should be otherwise? They may not be elected if the voters don't trust their biwi/pati, but that's it.

What about a trade-off between an Indian born, Indian loyalist married to an Indian vs whatwever you have described? Spouses have been used as an influence strategy throughout the ages by groups with vested interests. In this case it is not a question of a persons personal likes or dislikes but of limiting risk to the nation.
Whoever one is married to or consorting with is everyones business if Indias strategic security is in question
Also trusting the voters holds no water in this case. These very voters vote for Mulayam and other criminals. The field needs to be cleared of potential risk. Whatever is left might still be corrupt but the risk probability is lower.
If we have a perfect market where voting is concerned, we might as well shut this website and go home. Afterall voters make perfect decisions. That we know is not true

Some examples
Dhar's book Open Secrets
We have to look at Sikkim where a CIA agent Hope Cooke was presented as an American research student to Sikkim prince and future King Palden Thondup Namgyal, for creating an independent Sikkim. Sikkim used to be a protectorate of India, which had overall responsibility for its defense and foreign relations. Barring this, the territory enjoyed some autonomy under the Chogyal (ruler). The Indian intelligence was aware of CIA plot. Prince Palden Thondup Namgyal aged 39 married Hope Cooke, 22 in 1963 and conveniently his father Tashi Namgyal, the eleventh chogyal died in the same year. Our government in 1975 ended the special status of Sikkim and Cook along with chogyal emigrated to US.

http://www.rediff.com/election/1999/sep/15column.htm
In 1950, the then Maharaja of Indore, Yashvantrao Holkar, wanted his son, Richard, to be his successor. Richard was born in Indore before 1947 of an American woman the Maharaja made his wife in 1943. The then President, Dr Rajendra Prasad, Nehru and Home Minister Patel, made it clear that the son of a foreign wife could not inherit the Indore gaddi. This was followed by an unprecedented event in the history of India.

Contrary to all Hindu traditions, precedent and religious sanction, the Maharaja's daughter, Usha Raje Holkar -- born of a Hindu wife -- was made a successor to the ruler of Indore. The significant thing is that this happened after the Constitution had come into force. The rulership was only notional as the state of Indore had been merged in the Union of Madhya Bharat state in 1948. In 1961, the maharaja died. Princess Usha was recognised as the next ruler by the Government of India under the signature of Prasad and Nehru.

[Rahul Mehta]

In the Tharoor case, the proper recourse is that the voters vote him out if they are uncomfortable with his presumed loyalty etc. But there is a very good chance that the electorate in his constituency trusts him AND his foreign Biwi a whole lot more than they trust the Comrades whom they voted out to elect him. Why should an Indian-born, Indian citizen Chinese agent be preferred to a person who marries an Indian out of love?

Here is one set of possibilities

1. The voters of that Constituency, did not really trust Tharoor.

2. The MNCs/Christianists/USG of whom Tharoor is an agent bribed Sonia et al to give loksabha ticket to Tharooor. Or may be, there was no bribe -- Sonia too can be agent of same MNCs/Christianists/USG.

3. The voters who hated CPM voted for Tharoor as they did not have any choice after Tharoor got the Congress ticket.

4. The MNCs/Christianists/USG of whom Tharoor is an agent bribed Sonia et al to and ensured that Tharooor becomes a Minister. Or may be, there was no bribe -- Sonia too can be agent of same MNCs/Christianists/USG.

And even if we negate (1) that it only means that voters of one Constituency has faith in Tharoor. This does not mean that voters of entire India have faith in Tharoor.

MNCs/Christianists/USG agents getting into Ministries a is common problem and it is growing day by day. There are many OST solutions, discussed in Neta-Babu thread. And as far as I see, there is no IST solution to this MNC/Christianist/USG agents penetrating into GoI.

==============

Same way that the electorate in Rae Bareili, time and again, sweeps Sonia Gandhi back to power, and all the rabble-rousers lose their Deposits. And the INC voters somehow also trust Soniaji over all the desi-born, khadar/Nehru cap wearing crooks. I can't say that I disagree with the wisdom of the electorate in any of these things.

This has been discussed to death in EVM thread.

[Sanku]

Quoting Pullikesi:

I still contend that we should focus on rebuilding the civilization that had thought leadership.
However, I may be the minority as we have still not finished arguing high school civics.
A result of the scientific coolie mindset inculcated by our finest institutions churning out clerks.

But in none of the above, has the "thought leadership" come from scientific types. Thought Leadership always involves the capability to set up completely new rule structures and lateral thinking, and of course, most scientific training crushes such instincts and indeed, turns its products into "scientific coolies".

That is hardly correct, Benjamin Franklin, Newton, Enistien etc were all Scietienfic minds who had polticial and social contributions.

And that is only a trivial list, the list of those in the west is huge.

The problem of scientific coolies is only seen in India, and that is because the choice of Engineering and Sciences is made by the vast majority 80%+ not because of any remote aptitude or interest in the matter but ONLY because that is the safest and least risk averse approach to life.

So essentially all those who would have served as clerks under Macaulay end up now in IITs, IAS, IPS etc.

The entire top spectrum of leadership (outside politics) is run by risk averse people looking for safe options (note this does not mean 1) that exceptions dont exist, 2) these people are not intelligent)

So these guys are in it primarily for the narrow materialist life living outlook.

The few who truly understand the free thinking process of Sciences are thought leaders too.

Sadly -- almost impossible to find in India and things get so bad that instead of realizing that Scientific process is liberating, even those schooled in it think that it is suffocating -- and that's because thats what it has been to them -- a cap on thinking and rules to be followed.

-------------

And that is the reason that I actually have more respect for the Indian politican and even a Lalu and Mayawati than all my scrubbed clean pipsqueak classmates from the madarassa e Hind.

[samuel]

Scientific coolies -- that was just the phrase I was looking for to describe the
fractally shimmering science dhimmis. Thanks for that...!

[Pranav]

x-post from National Agenda for India thread:

I think the zero-th point on the agenda is leadership.

IMHO, one of the most pivotal and strategic battles that is going in the country at present, is the BJP leadership struggle. Currently, we scarcely have an opposition worth the name. Very little changes, irrespective of which party is in power. Even if EVMs are rigged, present BJP leadership would be happy to be tossed to few crumbs from time to time. Maybe the riggers would even give them a turn once in a while, once they are sufficiently tamed and emasculated.

Anyway, here is a compilation of some developments:

Some smears that were made just before Bhagwat became RSS chief:

RSS to sack vice-chief Mohan Bhagwat for ISI involvement
March 12th, 2009 - 2:25 pm ICT by ANI -

New Delhi, Mar 12 (ANI): The Annual General Body meeting of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RRS) called the “Pratinidhi Sabha” will be held in Nagpur from March 20 where party chief K S Sudarshan is likely to sack vice-chief Mohan Bhagwat, according to the website Politicsparty.com.

Politicsparty.com said Sudarshan is expected to appoint a New Second-in Command in place of Bhagwat, who was allegedly charged with regularly receiving payments from Pakistan’’s Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) Agency.

The RSS apex leadership led by Sudarshan has taken cognizance of the Anti-Terror Investigation and the alleged payments by the ISI to RSS apex position holders, says the website. (ANI)
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/ind ... 65524.html

Was there a plot to eliminate Bhagwat?

Mumbai, Feb 18: RSS leader Shyam Apte has alleged two RSS leaders, including general secretary Mohan Bhagwat were funded by Pakistan's ISI, Malegaon blast accused Dayanand Pandey said in his confessional statement to the police.

"In August 2008, I had gone to Pune where I met with RSS leader Shyam Apte who told me about (Indresh) Kumar (Muslim wing leader of RSS) and Bhagwat taking money from ISI.

Lt Col Srikant Purohit, after learning about this, had asked one Captain Joshi to murder the two," Pandey said in his confession before a Deputy Commissioner of Police (DCP).
http://www.zeenews.com/Nation/2009-02-1 ... 5news.html

BJP needs chemotherapy: Bhagwat
TNN 28 October 2009, 01:48am IST

NEW DELHI: The BJP may choose to be dismissive but the party's mentor-in-chief, RSS boss Mohan Bhagwat has diagnosed that the party is grappling with a life-threatening ailment that calls for nothing short of drastic surgery or even "chemotherapy" to prevent its demise.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 170643.cms

the RSS has let it be known that the new president would not be from Delhi, which effectively rules out the four next generation leaders Arun Jaitley, Sushma Swaraj, Ananth Kumar and Venkaiah Naidu.
http://www.dnaindia.com/opinion/editori ... ol_1309446

Karnataka government crisis is a proxy for BJP-RSS war

The Karnataka crisis has unfolded like a Greek tragedy. The faultlines were evident almost from the time Yeddyurappa was sworn in as chief minister, when he was forced to accommodate all three Reddy brothers in his cabinet against his will. Such was the clout of the Reddys that certain Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) leaders in Karnataka spoke up for their inclusion in the government.

Given the inherent tensions in the power structure in Karnataka, the current crisis is not unexpected. What is surprising is the way in which it has been allowed to spin out of control and threaten the very existence of the government. And the responsibility for this lies entirely with the central leadership which is currently locked in another, more dangerous battle that could unravel the BJP and displace it as the premier national opposition party.

BJP sources who wish to remain anonymous believe that the crisis in Karnataka is part of a proxy war between the senior leadership and the RSS for control of the party. The catalyst was Mohan Bhagwat's elevation as RSS chief and his determination to revamp the BJP by bringing in a new generation of leaders.

While his main target is LK Advani, who he wants out from the post of leader of opposition, Bhagwat has also made it clear that there is no room for "Delhi-based" leaders in his blueprint for a new BJP. The phrase is a euphemism for the four who are considered close to Advani -- Arun Jaitley, Sushma Swaraj, Venkaiah Naidu and Ananthkumar.

It's no coincidence that all four are in some way or another connected to the current crisis in Karnataka. Ananthkumar has been opposed to Yeddyurappa from the very beginning, and tried to stop him from becoming CM. Swaraj has been the political mentor of the Reddy brothers and was responsible for bringing them into the BJP and developing them into a powerhouse in Bellary. Jaitley and Naidu are Ananthkumar's mentors in Delhi.

Yeddyurappa, on the other hand, draws his strength from Nagpur, where the RSS is headquartered. While he may have his differences with sections of Karnataka RSS leaders, he has made it a point to keep the top brass in good humour. This is a strategy adopted by other BJP chief ministers like Shivraj Chauhan in Madhya Pradesh and Raman Singh in Chhattisgarh.

The battlelines are obvious and so is the signal that has been sent to Bhagwat through the campaign against Yeddyurappa. It's a virtual challenge from Delhi to Nagpur, a dark hint of the consequences to follow if the RSS dares to impose its will on the BJP.

Advani is believed to have communicated to Bhagwat that he is ready to step down as leader of opposition but on condition that one of the four from his coterie is appointed president of the BJP when Rajnath Singh demits office in December/January. Bhagwat remains adamant about doing a deep search to choose someone from outside.

Yeddyurappa is a victim of this clash of wills. Unfortunately, the game has snowballed into something much bigger than anticipated. The campaign against Yeddyurappa was intended merely to send a message to the RSS bosses to lay off and let the party sort out its leadership issue without interference from Nagpur. But egged on by Congress leaders from Andhra Pradesh, the move seems to have acquired a life of its own. "The Bellary brothers are not going to listen to anyone. They have much bigger interests than keeping the BJP government alive in Karnataka," said one BJP source.

According to party leaders here, the Reddys have the support of enough MLAs to bring down the Yeddyurappa government and they couldn't care less if it falls. This is giving them the strength to bargain hard and the combined weight of Swaraj, Jaitley, Naidu and Ananthkumar has failed to keep them on track.
http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_k ... ar_1307805

Bhagwat on Modi:
Q. Should Narendra Modi apologise for the Gujarat carnage?
A. He is the head of a state, he has full knowledge of what happened and is capable of giving his reaction. If he thinks that something that needs an apology has taken place, then he will apologise. I am sure. I have also been told the speed with which the riots in Gujarat were controlled is commendable. Why should he apologise if he has done no wrong? That is not the way.
http://www.sanghparivar.org/excerpts-of ... at-aak-tak

Will Modi be next BJP president?
Nikunj Soni / DNATuesday, November 10, 2009 8:37 IST

Ahmedabad: It is widely believed in state BJP circles that chief minister Narendra Modi is set to play an important role in the party at the national level, as he may succeed Rajnath Singh as party president. Speculation about a national role for the Gujarat chief minister intensified after RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat indicated in an interview that the next national president of the BJP will not be from Delhi.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_wi ... nt_1309555

Advani to remain leader of Opposition: Sushma
Sushma Swaraj dubbed reports of mounting pressure on L K Advani to quit his post as a media creation.

Senior BJP leader L K Advani will not step down from the post of Leader of the Opposition in the Lok Sabha, his party colleague Sushma Swaraj said on Wednesday and dubbed reports of mounting pressure on him to quit his post as a media creation.

"Advaniji would not step down from the post of Leader of the Opposition in Lok Sabha and there were no talks in the party in this regard," Swaraj told reporters in Ratlam.

"It was a media creation," she said, after being asked when she will be elevated as Leader of Opposition in Lok Sabha and if there was pressure on Advani to quit his post.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/advan ... ma/540206/

Rajnath & Jaitley at Bhagwat’s door as BJP looks for leader
12 Nov 2009, 0354 hrs IST, ET Bureau

NEW DELHI: BJP president Rajnath Singh met RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat here on Wednesday in a move that was seen by political observers as being part of the consultation process kicked off by the two sides to zero in on the next party chief.

Leader of the Opposition in the Rajya Sabha Arun Jaitley too undertook a visit to Jhandewalan, which houses the RSS’ regional headquarters, later in the day. The series of meetings suggested that the exercise of selecting the next BJP chief had gathered momentum.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 221424.cms

[enqyoob]

Jarita:

What about a trade-off between an Indian born, Indian loyalist married to an Indian vs whatwever you have described? Spouses have been used as an influence strategy throughout the ages by groups with vested interests. In this case it is not a question of a persons personal likes or dislikes but of limiting risk to the nation.
Whoever one is married to or consorting with is everyones business if Indias strategic security is in question
Also trusting the voters holds no water in this case.

Many "leaders" have tried dissing the electorate and replacing it with their own brand of perfection. No need to name them here....

Regarding the influence of spouses, no argument. But it is totally false to argue that the spouse's own country of origin is relevant here. Pls. check into the scandal where the Indian Navy Chief was eventually "retired" after it became clear that the Navy was being run by his biwi (a pucca desi no doubt) in a completely arbitrary (not from her pov - it was entirely to suit her whims, but had nothing to do with merit etc) manner.

So, as much as you or I may dislike it, the deal in a democracy is that the voters have to agree. If you think there should be a Law that no one married to a non-citizen can hold office, well... you have to take the leadership and get that passed by the voters, and (hopefully) also get 2/3 majority in the Lok Sabha.

In Pakistan it would be so much simpler...