Indian Naval Discussion

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 26 Nov 2009 17:41

Time pass? Could be but it does take some effort - I'd think economy of effort would be important for an organization like the IN. Still, there could be some strategic issues that this RFI is trying to deal with.

Perhaps allowing for both Russian and US fighters by providing another entry if one of them fail to get the MRCA order. If the MRCA is the Shornet, the IN orders more 29ks, if it is MiG; the IN orders token shornets. It could also have something to do with the supposed interest in the CVF. Mayhaps the Brits, won't have russian birds flying on its design.

Speculating thats all.

CM.

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 27 Nov 2009 04:40

With out taking any sides, imagine the logistical nightmare of handling (Support) U.S. & Russian equipments together in a constrained space of a small aircraft carrier.

RFI might be a tactical pressure on Russians for a new deal, since the earlier deal was a combined package (Admiral Gorshkov Full Deck Carrier conversion+ Rearmament package + Mig 29k + Ka 31)

Choosing a different aircraft (F-18 or Rafale) could mean that Indian Navy might not have inter operatabilty between thier own carriers, Since the STOBAR capability of both aircrafts are not verified and the size of these aircrafts may not allow them to operate from INS Vikramaditya or even ADS/IAC 1.

I remember reading a quote from Admiral (Retd.) Suresh Mehta, that Indian Navy was interested in incorporating the EMALS for our future carrier designs. In that context the RFI might have some relevance. But considering the speed at which the current MRCA tender is going, it is highly unlikely that Indian Navy RFI will materialize any time soon.

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 27 Nov 2009 05:20

In my humble opinion, going for a Naval LCA, in the present design configuration will have a long term negative impact on the navy.

The simple logical reason for using multiple engined aircrafts for carrier based operations is for redundancy. In the middle of the ocean and nowhere else to land, a flame out in a single engined aircraft means total loss of the system. In that respect, multiple engined aircraft have a better chance of getting back.

Not a big fan of Naval EF 2000 Variant either. It was stated somewhere before that the forward canards of EF 2000, might hinder the pilot visibility in a high Angle of Attack landing on an aircraft carrier. Also what are the odds of Eurofighter being modified for carrier based operations, just for the Indian Navy, by a 4 nation consortium who themselves have very little interest in a naval variant.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Nov 2009 17:53

The JSF has been further delayed by tech problems and its cost is escalating according to latest media reports.What is intriguing,as mentioned in the China/Intl.air threads,is the emrgence of the very good looking Chinese 5th-gen fighter,to fly very soon,say the Chinese a decade ahead of US estimates.A naval version of this aircraft is suposedly also on the cards for China's future carriers.It is perhaps why the IN has suddenly announced its search for a future naval strike aircraft.If we are acquiring larger carriers,then the best way to go is for a naval variant of the 5th-gen fighter,which will have very little competition.The best alternative western bird is the Rafale as even if we want it,the JSF will never be sold to us in a worhwhile avatar.Another report says that even the F-22 will be put out to defeat the Chinese as the aircraft can carry only 8 AAMs and will be outnumbered by superior Chinese numbers.It only underscores the oldsaying quoted before "safety in numbers".It's what served the iAF very well two decades ago with the large MIG-21 fleet.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Nov 2009 14:56

from RIA novosti - I had thought the last Kilo Sindhushastra came from day1 with Klub but apparently not.

15:3216/09/2009

MOSCOW, September 16 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's Zvezdochka shipyard said on Wednesday it will install Club-S cruise missile systems on four Kilo class diesel submarines in service with the Indian navy in the next five years.

Russia has built ten Kilo class submarines for India. Only two of them — the INS Sindhugosh and INS Sindhuvijay — have reportedly been equipped with the Club-S (SS-N-27) cruise missiles to date.

"The new missile system will be installed on the INS Sindhuratna, INS Sindhuraj, INS Sindhushastra, and INS Sindhuvir. The retrofit will be carried out at Indian shipyards," the shipyard in northern Russia said in a statement.

"Zvezdochka will finish this work in the next five years," the statement said.

The Club-S subsonic cruise missile is designed for launch from a 533 mm torpedo tube, or a vertical launch tube. It has a range of 160 nautical miles (about 300 km). It uses an ARGS-54 active radar seeker and Glonass satellite and inertial guidance.

In addition, Zvezdochka is getting ready to overhaul another Indian Kilo class submarine — the INS Sindhurakshak under a deal which is expected to be signed in spring 2010.

"The submarine will be delivered to Severodvinsk in June 2010," the shipyard said.

Russia agreed in 2001 to upgrade all 10 Indian Kilo class submarines and has previously overhauled four subs at the Zvezdochka shipyard.

The upgrade program involves a complete overhaul of the submarines, including their hull structures, as well as improved control systems, sonar, electronic warfare systems, and an integrated weapon control system. The upgrades are reported to be costing about $80 million.

Russia's Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines have gained a reputation as extremely quiet boats, and have been purchased by China, India, Iran, Poland, Romania and Algeria.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Nov 2009 15:04

matching that to BR data. BR says 6 refits complete but Novosti says 4 done and sindhurakshak due to start in 2010. so there is diff of 2.

once the 4 klub installations are done, would leave 2nd , 6th , 9th boats to go, 7th boat is Vizag testbed.

Names & Pennant Numbers with commission dates:
INS Sindhugosh S55 (30 April 1986) - Refit Complete - Klubbed
INS Sindhudhvaj S56 (12 June 1987)
INS Sindhuraj S57 (20 October 1987) - Refit Complete - TBK (to be klubbed)
INS Sindhuvir S58 (26 August 1988) - Refit Complete - TBK
INS Sindhuratna S59 (22 December 1988) - Refit Complete - TBK
INS Sindhukesari S60 (16 February 1989) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhukirti S61 (04 January 1990) - Undergoing refit at HSL, estimated completion in 2011
INS Sindhuvijay S62 (08 March 1991) - Refit Complete - Klubbed
INS Sindhurakshak S63 (24 December 1997) - slated for refit in March 2010
INS Sindhushastra S65 (19 July 2000) - TBK

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 28 Nov 2009 15:06

Couple of photo-sets of Teg's launch
http://www.tassphoto.com/directquery.pg ... &x=29&y=12

http://kaliningrad.ru/news/item/1274-%D ... 0%B8%D1%8E

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 28 Nov 2009 15:21

Any news on what the SAm system consists of? Is it still the single arm launcher?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Nov 2009 15:48

John · Post by **John** » 28 Nov 2009 21:51

VL-shtil is unlikely for IN vessels apart from the fact that the development was funded by PLAN, China also license manufactures them.

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 29 Nov 2009 02:25

SNaik wrote:Couple of photo-sets of Teg's launch
http://www.tassphoto.com/directquery.pg ... &x=29&y=12

http://kaliningrad.ru/news/item/1274-%D ... 0%B8%D1%8E

The first link does not allow the pictures to be seen in max resolution..........too bad. Thanks for posting the links.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 29 Nov 2009 03:34

Here's a link to some larger pics. The ship looks gorgeous.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 29 Nov 2009 03:37

Sorry, let me try that one more time. Here's the link.

http://visualrian.com/lists/item/46716

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Nov 2009 08:38

John wrote:VL-shtil is unlikely for IN vessels apart from the fact that the development was funded by PLAN, China also license manufactures them.

if the MR-SAM comes along it is likely that all the talwars will re-fitted with it during mid life upg, starting post 2018.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 29 Nov 2009 10:40

I would doubt it. Unless the radar and everything is changed which will be akin to buying a new ship.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 29 Nov 2009 10:52

Russia's shipyard launches Indian stealth frigates 'Teg'

Under $1.6 billion contract signed in July 2006, INS Teg begins the second series of three Project 11356 Talwar Class (Krivak-III) stealth guided missile frigates to be followed by INS Tarkash (Quiver) and INS Trikand (Bow).

INS Teg was launched with the recitation Vedic hymns by Indian Naval attache in Moscow Commodore S K Grewal and breaking of coconut by the Indian Consul General in St Petersburg Radhika Lal Lokesh.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Nov 2009 11:29

vavinash wrote:I would doubt it. Unless the radar and everything is changed which will be akin to buying a new ship.

a mid-life refit is a pretty involved thing for a warship. many things are changed in mid-life refits. changing radars routinely happen in a ship's lifetime. surely you don't expect one of IN's most numerous surface combatants to spend the rest of its life with a measly 25km range SAM fired from single arm launchers.
please go through the BR kashin page to understand how thoroughly a refit can change a ship. even the delhi class will be refitted to carry the brahmos and most likely will see a similar refit to get the barak-8.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 29 Nov 2009 11:33

Rahul M wrote:
vavinash wrote:I would doubt it. Unless the radar and everything is changed which will be akin to buying a new ship.
a mid-life refit is a pretty involved thing for a warship. many things are changed in mid-life refits. changing radars routinely happen in a ship's lifetime. surely you don't expect one of IN's most numerous surface combatants to spend the rest of its life with a measly 25km range SAM fired from single arm launchers.
please go through the BR kashin page to understand how thoroughly a refit can change a ship. even the delhi class will be refitted to carry the brahmos and most likely will see a similar refit to get the barak-8.

The kashins have the same SAM's as they were launched with right? Only brahmos was added. Yes 32 km is pretty small range for SAM but we will have to see when the krivaks will get the Barak-2. Is there any plan to get 3 more krivaks or was it dropped in favour of P-17a's?

Nov is coming to an end and yet we haven't heard anything about Shivalik joining IN. I hope MDL hasn't screwed up as usual.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Nov 2009 11:59

The kashins have the same SAM's as they were launched with right?Only brahmos was added.

wrong.
last 2 kashins have had barak retrofitted in place of the Ak-630. the EL/M-2248 has also been added on some examples replacing the soviet ones. SA-N-1 has been retained because a) the shtil-1 doesn't give a hugely improved performance b) refitting new systems on a very old ship is not cost effective.
none of those factors apply to the krivaks.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Nov 2009 12:06

vavinash wrote:...

The kashins have the same SAM's as they were launched with right? Only brahmos was added. Yes 32 km is pretty small range for SAM but we will have to see when the krivaks will get the Barak-2. Is there any plan to get 3 more krivaks or was it dropped in favour of P-17a's?

...

If the 7 P-17As, 3 P-15As and 4 P-15Bs are delayed significantly, then it is likely IN will be forced to order 3 more Krivaks. Otherwise, IN will not as it is standardizing on Barak 1 / 8 SAM systems for its fleet AD needs on all its future combat ships (of 2500+ tons displacement).

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 29 Nov 2009 12:51

Any news on the Arihant front?

Thanks in advance

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Nov 2009 13:11

CGI of P-15A ... IMO, this needs to be on BR page for the Kolkata class:

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 29 Nov 2009 14:34

Navy's hunt for new carrier-operated fighters begins

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 29 Nov 2009 14:52

its three 40,000-tonne Indigenous Aircraft Carriers (IAC) being built at the Cochin Shipyard.

Let me speculate...we already have one...we are getting one from Russia... the environment is fumed with reports of one....from UK...!!

So...are we going to have SIX aircraft career by 2020....I think i am still...dreaming...ohh...in... daylight.....???

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 29 Nov 2009 15:34

Rahul M wrote: SA-N-1 has been retained because a) the shtil-1 doesn't give a hugely improved performance b) refitting new systems on a very old ship is not cost effective.
none of those factors apply to the krivaks.

Come oooon

SA-N-1 is a command missile meaning single target channel, Shtil is a SAR with at least 4 target channels (and a couple of el-op visors as back-up). The missile it self is faster and more maneuverable.
But you are certainly correct on the b), confirmed by Soviet Navy which installed Shtil only in one of their Kashins.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Nov 2009 15:53

I just knew someone would raise this issue !

what I wanted to say was :
given the kashin's relatively secondary status in the IN in terms of AD (after the P15 and the krivaks) what it already has suffices for its role. the shtil-1 though of a much later generation doesn't offer that huge an improvement capability wise (namely both the SA-N-1 and the SA-N-7 offers strictly self-defensive capability, albeit a much improved one for the later) to justify the costs. IN probably thinks that the barak is sufficient for that role.

instead I wrote that one line. teaches you never to write incomplete thoughts on BR !

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Nov 2009 22:21

just for the record, the mig-29k is limited to 8G, it also has a lower top speed than the older mig-29.
http://www.migavia.ru/eng/military_e/MiG_29_K_KUB_e.htm

given that it has bloated up considerably (max T/O weight for example has increased by about 33%) but the increase in engine thrust hasn't seen a commensurate increase (only 14% for the 2 rd-33Mk) I suspect acceleration and rate of climb will be similarly affected which means the mig-29k is no longer as sporty as its much lighter predecessor.
that can well be a disadvantage in air superiority roles.

the figures will be much worse for the mig-35 but that's quite another matter altogether.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Nov 2009 23:45

Rahul M wrote:...

what I wanted to say was :
given the kashin's relatively secondary status in the IN in terms of AD (after the P15 and the krivaks) what it already has suffices for its role. the shtil-1 though of a much later generation doesn't offer that huge an improvement capability wise (namely both the SA-N-1 and the SA-N-7 offers strictly self-defensive capability, albeit a much improved one for the later) to justify the costs. IN probably thinks that the barak is sufficient for that role.

...

Plus, Kashin-IIs in IN are really old. The oldest Rajput is about close to 30 years old, and the youngest Ranvijay is about 22 years old. I don't think it makes sense for these to be extensively modified since they are reaching the end of their service lives. Also, the real upgrade in AD with Barak-NG will not be available until the next couple of years as it completes R&D; thus, it is too late for these ships. It is likely the 3 P-15As will replace Rajput, Rana, and Ranjit by 2015. The 4 P-15Bs will replace the Ranvir and Ranvijay post 2015.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 29 Nov 2009 23:47

I for one don't believe 7 destroyers are enough for IN. IN needs 10-12 minimum for its needs. Its high time P-15B numbers were hiked up to 6.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Nov 2009 23:49

vavinash wrote:I for one don't believe 7 destroyers are enough for IN. IN needs 10-12 minimum for its needs. Its high time P-15B numbers were hiked up to 6.

IN will have around 10 destroyers: 3 P15, 3 P15A, and 4 P15B. But you are right. IN should think of ordering 6 of the P15Bs.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 30 Nov 2009 00:15

Rahul,

While the MiG-29K will be a little more sluggish than the 35 or even the original A; it's TWR is still v.respectable. Empty weight ~ 12400kg: 18000kgf. Last I remember the rate of climb for the MiG-29M was shown at 290m/s - empty weight ~ 11600kg & Thrust ~ 17000kgf. I'd guess the K will be similar or a little lower. Still, better than most legacy counterparts but lower than the Rafale/EF-2000. FWIW, Y.Gordon puts the rate of climb @ 300m/s for the Mig-29K izd. 9.41. I'd wager between 280-300 m/s. I'm not so sure the Rafale M can do much better.

In terms of air superiority, it should be v.competitive vs. a blk-50 or possibly, even blk60. JMT

the figures will be much worse for the mig-35 but that's quite another matter altogether.

Why? The 35 is around 1 ton lighter than the K (800 odd Kg according to P. Butowski). Probably no heavier than the M but more thrust.

CM.

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 30 Nov 2009 02:04

tejas wrote:Sorry, let me try that one more time. Here's the link.

http://visualrian.com/lists/item/46716

Tejas,

I happen to collect defense related images, so thanks for the link

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 30 Nov 2009 02:06

srai wrote:
vavinash wrote:I for one don't believe 7 destroyers are enough for IN. IN needs 10-12 minimum for its needs. Its high time P-15B numbers were hiked up to 6.
IN will have around 10 destroyers: 3 P15, 3 P15A, and 4 P15B. But you are right. IN should think of ordering 6 of the P15Bs.

The 3rd P-15A will only join the navy in 2013-14. It takes a ridiculous amount of time for MDL to make a ship. If it was a Pvt sector shipyard it would have been shut down by now. 1st P-15B' won't see the light of the day till 2018 if MDL starts now, so how will IN have 10 destroyers? Kashins will have to go by 2018-20.

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 30 Nov 2009 02:09

Cain Marko wrote:Rahul,

While the MiG-29K will be a little more sluggish than the 35 or even the original A; it's TWR is still v.respectable. Empty weight ~ 12400kg: 18000kgf. Last I remember the rate of climb for the MiG-29M was shown at 290m/s - empty weight ~ 11600kg & Thrust ~ 17000kgf. I'd guess the K will be similar or a little lower. Still, better than most legacy counterparts but lower than the Rafale/EF-2000. FWIW, Y.Gordon puts the rate of climb @ 300m/s for the Mig-29K izd. 9.41. I'd wager between 280-300 m/s. I'm not so sure the Rafale M can do much better.

In terms of air superiority, it should be v.competitive vs. a blk-50 or possibly, even blk60. JMT

the figures will be much worse for the mig-35 but that's quite another matter altogether.
Why? The 35 is around 1 ton lighter than the K (800 odd Kg according to P. Butowski). Probably no heavier than the M but more thrust.

CM.

The tests on Admiral Kuznetsov was just take off/landing in clean configuration....so, Will the Mig 29k have severe performance limitations with an air superiority wepons package, when operated from a shorter deck aircraft carrier???

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 30 Nov 2009 02:19

vavinash wrote: The 3rd P-15A will only join the navy in 2013-14. It takes a ridiculous amount of time for MDL to make a ship. If it was a Pvt sector shipyard it would have been shut down by now. 1st P-15B' won't see the light of the day till 2018 if MDL starts now, so how will IN have 10 destroyers? Kashins will have to go by 2018-20.

Wouldn't it be easier and less time consuming to procure a number of completed hulls of a same design simultaniously from different shipyards (Hull+engines+propellers) and do the fitting out (weapons+sensors) in a single dedicated establishment???

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Nov 2009 02:32

vavinash wrote:
srai wrote:"quote="vavinash"...I for one don't believe 7 destroyers are enough for IN. IN needs 10-12 minimum for its needs. Its high time P-15B numbers were hiked up to 6.../quote"

IN will have around 10 destroyers: 3 P15, 3 P15A, and 4 P15B. But you are right. IN should think of ordering 6 of the P15Bs.
The 3rd P-15A will only join the navy in 2013-14. It takes a ridiculous amount of time for MDL to make a ship. If it was a Pvt sector shipyard it would have been shut down by now. 1st P-15B' won't see the light of the day till 2018 if MDL starts now, so how will IN have 10 destroyers? Kashins will have to go by 2018-20.

I didn't say when the IN will have 10 destroyer type of ships in its fleet

... as in your original posts didn't specify that as well.

But the existing 3 P15s, the current order of 3 P15As and the planned 4 P15Bs adds up to 10

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 30 Nov 2009 02:35

The crest's of new Talwar class - INS TEG, INS TARKASH, INS TRIKAND
http://www.stratpost.com/crests-of-the- ... n-frigates

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 30 Nov 2009 02:45

Anoop. A. wrote:The tests on Admiral Kuznetsov was just take off/landing in clean configuration....so, Will the Mig 29k have severe performance limitations with an air superiority wepons package, when operated from a shorter deck aircraft carrier???

I don't see the MiG-29K being any more handicapped than other naval fighters in a similar situation (STOBAR). An A2A package will normally be lighter than an A2G one so the K should be able to do well enough. Btw, why do you think the Kuznetsov tests were only with a clean config? Any sources specifically stating such a profile?

CM.

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Nov 2009 02:45

Anoop. A. wrote:
vavinash wrote: The 3rd P-15A will only join the navy in 2013-14. It takes a ridiculous amount of time for MDL to make a ship. If it was a Pvt sector shipyard it would have been shut down by now. 1st P-15B' won't see the light of the day till 2018 if MDL starts now, so how will IN have 10 destroyers? Kashins will have to go by 2018-20.
Wouldn't it be easier and less time consuming to procure a number of completed hulls of a same design simultaniously from different shipyards (Hull+engines+propellers) and do the fitting out (weapons+sensors) in a single dedicated establishment???

You have a good point. It might make sense if IN orders 6 ships of a type and splits the shipbuilding between two different shipyards (each building 3 ships). That way IN can get ships quicker (2 per year) even with delays (at one or both shipyards).

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 30 Nov 2009 02:54

Cain Marko wrote:
Anoop. A. wrote:The tests on Admiral Kuznetsov was just take off/landing in clean configuration....so, Will the Mig 29k have severe performance limitations with an air superiority wepons package, when operated from a shorter deck aircraft carrier???
I don't see the MiG-29K being any more handicapped than other naval fighters in a similar situation (STOBAR). An A2A package will normally be lighter than an A2G one so the K should be able to do well enough. Btw, why do you think the Kuznetsov tests were only with a clean config? Any sources specifically stating such a profile?

CM.

I was talking about a Mig 29 K taking off with full air to air weapons, after using a considerable amount of fuel in STOBAR take off mode and still being effective in Air superiority role (in terms of range, on station time, Air combat manoeuvring with the weapons package etc.)

YOUTUBE has a report from a russian news broadcast showing the Indian Mig 29 K, landing and taking off in clean configuration (not even drop tanks are attached).You can view this on the following link,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUxJGeLUa3Q

Regards.