Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Nov 2009 09:47

wouldnt the test & measurement instrumentation hw & sw for such a facility cost a packet , being low volume items used only in perhaps couple dozen facilities worldwide if we are talking of capability to test large civilian sized engines too.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 27 Nov 2009 14:12

DRDO lab, Navy to dev Kaveri marine engine

Gas Turbine Research Establishment is looking to develop a marine version of Kaveri engine, originally intended to power India's indigenous fighter jet Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, in partnership with the Navy.

"We are already looking at Kaveri Marine project of which Indian Navy is quite supportive and they are going to be our working partners including financial participation", Director of GTRE, a lab under Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), T Mohana Rao, told PTI here.

Using the core of the Kaveri engine, GTRE plans to add low-pressure compressor and turbine as a gas generator to generate shaft power for maritime applications.

Bangalore-based GTRE is also looking at developing small gas turbine engines for unmanned aircraft.

"There are lots of other projects in the offing. We need to look at them in a very pragmatic way", Rao said. "We (GTRE) are capable of taking up any gas turbine-related design and development activity for the country".

Meanwhile, the Kaveri engine meant for Tejas is currently undergoing altitude tests in Russia, an exercise expected to last three to four weeks.

"Once that's in good shape and a good success, we will be using one more engine for flying test bed trials", he said.

Meanwhile, France-based Snecma which had been identified as a joint venture partner of GTRE for further development of the Kaveri engine for LCA, is yet to join the programme.


http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... y/79345/on

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vina » 27 Nov 2009 15:37

enqyoob wrote: The former needs only a powerful pump to suck out the air, but the latter may require a hefty heat exhanger (A-1 Dasaprakash ice-cream machine) to take the temperature down to 217K. I guess the critical condition is high angle of attack, low velocity, at high altitude so that the engine has to suck in low-pressure, low-density air.

Point is, the pressure difference between outside and inside is less than 1 atmosphere - how tough can this be to build? Water pipes are stressed to be leakproof at 120 psi, which is like 8 atmospheres.


The only thing needed from the A-1 Dashprakash ice-cream machine is the compressor (working as a blower) and the expander valve only.. No heat exchanger needed.

You would simply expand air, pressure and temperature will drop adiabatically , and you can replicate the "high altitude and low temperature conditions" no? Fan needs to just keep blowing at the appropriate mass flow rate demanded by the jet engine under test.. Vary the expansion and you can vary altitude. Zimble only.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby enqyoob » 27 Nov 2009 18:20

True, in fact the whole $100M can be recovered by turning this into the GTRE Rock Music and Ice-Cream Mart. The vibration alone is truly worth paying big bucks to experience, esp. if they manage to stall the compressor.

Apparently one has to also offer Made in China "Zhu-Zhu Hamster" Robotic Rodentsto attract the Well-Diapered Customer this year.

But you want independent control of temperature, since
ishtandard temperature above 11,000 meters up to 25,000 meters is essentially constant, while pressure goes down quite a bit. Operating procedure may be to evacuate down to the lowest pressure you dare to reach, and then gradually allow it to rise back to ambient. When the injin operates, it will greatly heat up the whole place. The walls are definitely not adiabatic.

Actually in India, the bigger problem is higher density altitude, which means low pressure but NOT so low temperature. Maybe thrown in the odd water-hose (THIS may be the problem in Bengalooru?) to add humidity, ice etc.

OTOH, the above scheme would fit well with the Usual Operating Schedule, since they could argue that in summer it is just too hot to simulate the conditions properly, so they just hang out at the Dasaprakash Mart.

I think in Siberia they just need to lower pressure, the cold is provided free, and the Visiting Team tends to work hard and leave as soon as their hangover will permit.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby enqyoob » 27 Nov 2009 18:46

SriniY: good question. Let me check my madarssa math, on what triggered me:

From Karthik (see previous page):
Actually i read in an article that building an High altitude facility would cost atleast 300 to 400 crores.


In guvrmand projects it is criminal to come in under the estimated upper limit, so we take 400 karod. At $1=Rs. 40 (dividing by 50 is beyond my madarssa math), that is dus karod dollar. Ek karod = sau lakh. So dus karod = hajaar lakh = sau million dollar. If dollar goes up to 50 rupee, only assee million. But dollar is going down and cost will inflate.

Re: High altitude simulation. AFAIK the issues are:
1. Max compression ratio, because this is limited by blade stall, and many other things. At low levels, one may argue that 20 is too much because engine walls must then be built to withstand 20 atmos, so you never go to max pressure ratio. At 11,000 meters, pressure is only 0.22 atmos. So 20 times that is only 4.4 atmos and you can push the limits until the compressor stalls.

2. Minimum pressure for efficient combustion. Combustion rate is proportional to pressure ^n, where n is something like 0.2 or so, if I remember my 4th grade Radiant Way Reaction Kinetics and Arithmetic Reader. At 19,000 meters (I assume ceiling is around there?) pressure is only 0.063 atmos. So combustion rate is only about half of what it is at sea level for the same pressure ratio. The combustion chamber may not work very efficiently.

3. Flameout and re-lighting.

If you now go to a sudden power demand and stall the compressor, or you go up to high angle of attack and flow separates in front of the compressor and the compressor stalls, the pressure will suddenly fall in the combustor, and flame may go out. Then they have to see how to re-light it, to generate the heat which can run the turbine to produce the right pressure to keep the flame lit, before the compressor spins down too low.

All of these have to be simulated, I assume, in a high-altitude engine facility. The pitching effect on compressor stall may have to be faked, but I don't think that is very tough.


As for hw and sw cost, its no tougher than programming a rocket test stand, and anyone who understands FORTRAN and some C and can decipher what the IISC supersonic wind tunnel experts have to say, can't have much difficulty with it. I would say 6 months tops for about 4 people, provided they are not on speaking terms. :mrgreen:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby jaladipc » 27 Nov 2009 18:54

Arey yaaar...
If the facility is built using the indian components and 90% desi made,at most it will cost 100 crore.This includes all the necessary instruments and simulators.But does not include the name plate("HIGH ALTITUDE AERO-ENGINE TESTING FACILITY).

And this name plate alone will cost the rest 300 crores just like NHAI is spending 5 lakh on a MMS and sonia banners along side national highways. :P
since this is defence related and will test the costly engines,the name board should imply the pun intended behind the facility.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby karthik » 28 Nov 2009 03:44

SriniY wrote:^^ Where is it mentioned that it a test facility would cost $100 mil. Just asking out of curiosity, could not find a source in the previous page


This one does not state the cost but merely mentions it will run in the hundreds of crores but i am sure i read some where the number 300 to 400 cant remember or may be it was an memory lapse on my part.

India has no facilities for altitude-testing and flight-testing jet engines. GTRE estimates it will take several hundred crore rupees to create such test facilities in India. Meanwhile, each test campaign in Russia costs Rs 50-60 crores.


http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ht/369298/

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 28 Nov 2009 03:56

so 10 times you go to russkies, you spend as much... btw, why is that DRDO is not even planning to have this setup at home? something fishy!

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby karthik » 28 Nov 2009 04:06

SaiK wrote:so 10 times you go to russkies, you spend as much... btw, why is that DRDO is not even planning to have this setup at home? something fishy!


I guess the answer is how many jet engines are being designed in India! We have just one project and its various derivatives, So much of it depends on how the Kaveri turns out. Its more of investor confidence on the governments part and may be incentive based as well. GTRE has to prove itself that India can be an design destination even without the proper facilitates, however contradictory it sounds i guess thats one of the reason the government is not yet investing.

May be if we invested in these things earlier we may actually could have had the Kaveri by now but then what can we expect from an institution that runs our Indian Railway and the local Taluka.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 28 Nov 2009 04:08

if you ask me, that shows the confidence in GTRE folks.. we have tons of a/cs that need upgrades from migs, jaguars, sukhois etc.. Kaveri baseline is very very important.

if I can see a future.. why not DRDO and everyone out there?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby karthik » 28 Nov 2009 04:17

SaiK wrote:if you ask me, that shows the confidence in GTRE folks.. we have tons of a/cs that need upgrades from migs, jaguars, sukhois etc.. Kaveri baseline is very very important.

if I can see a future.. why not DRDO and everyone out there?


We still cant get our priorities right thats why! I think Mani Shanker Aiyer expressed the mind set well, when he was asked why we have not taken the Common Wealth infrastructure seriously, he said "Common Wealth games is irrelevant to the common man!" so may be the Kaveri Engine is also irrelevant that way. He may be partially right with the Common Wealth games but the mind set of how to allocate funds is still stuck in the 70s.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby enqyoob » 29 Nov 2009 09:56

I bet if they gave this engine component development as a challenge project to engineering student teams, all the issues would be solved within 3 years.

This is how the autonomous UAV problem was solved. Open the competition to international teams too. Grand Prize Brand New Ambassador Mark V Luxury Sedan with velvet curtains.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rahul M » 29 Nov 2009 10:15

I don't think this was posted ?
http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstyp ... sid=157679
Tejas to fly on indigenous Kaveri engine next year

The city-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), which is indigenously developing various types of aero engines, would be fitting its flagship product Kaveri engine to the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) 'Tejas' in the next one year.

Disclosing this to reporters at the 23rd convention of aerospace engineers here GTRE Director T Mohana Rao said the establishment had overcome all obstacles and one of the engines, originally built for the LCA was taken to Russia for testing. Once it passes the test another engine would be shipped later for flying test, he said.

He said the engine would be ready by March or April next year and it will be fully ready for integration in one year's time. ''We are also looking to develop a marine version of Kaveri engine and Indian Navy would be our working partners. This includes financial participation. Indian Navy is working with us for Kaveri marine project,'' he said.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby KrishG » 29 Nov 2009 10:34

The city-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), which is indigenously developing various types of aero engines, would be fitting its flagship product Kaveri engine to the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) 'Tejas' in the next one year.


Would have been happier if it met all it's design specs.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rahul M » 29 Nov 2009 10:38

according to reports it does meet its design specs, just that it is no longer enough for the LCA ending up heavier than expected.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby KrishG » 29 Nov 2009 10:49

Rahul M wrote:according to reports it does meet its design specs, just that it is no longer enough for the LCA ending up heavier than expected.


But, it is overweight. I remember having read that it's weight was around 1100 kg against the design weight of 950 kg, lowering the T/W ratio considerably.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby RKumar » 29 Nov 2009 15:57

KrishG wrote:
Rahul M wrote:according to reports it does meet its design specs, just that it is no longer enough for the LCA ending up heavier than expected.


But, it is overweight. I remember having read that it's weight was around 1100 kg against the design weight of 950 kg, lowering the T/W ratio considerably.


BUT f404 is also 1,036 kg

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby karan_mc » 29 Nov 2009 16:43

so when will be seeing LSP-3 with MMR fly ? i am most eagerly waiting for it

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby enqyoob » 29 Nov 2009 16:46

It meets "design specs" and would have been a world-beating engine to power the Messerschmitt 252 or even the Gloster Meteor. Would have eliminated the need for Area Ruling on the Convair F102. Trouble is, it's a few million Coffee Breaks too late to reach that level of development.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vina » 29 Nov 2009 17:48

Diyar Mullah en-qyoob-ud-din-e-Gas-Turbiney.. Our very own Shook Law has started a "Choose the best yinjin for the YellCeeYea" in his blog and has promised to take the "aam junta's" "democratic choice" to the powers that be.

Maybe you should put in your thoughts on A1-Dasaprakash ice cream machines and RR Avons and such vintage 1960s wines (oops Yingins) as suggestions, including uttam tackneeks about fully shocked :shock: Kombressors and Pressure Ratios and erect while garam things there in a phamily and pharlie mentary language onree.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby KrishG » 29 Nov 2009 18:34

Diyar Mullah en-qyoob-ud-din-e-Gas-Turbiney cant be start our own poll with reasoning of course !

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 29 Nov 2009 19:13

we need an orange alert when people go mullah speak. /ot.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vasu_ray » 29 Nov 2009 22:44

if Kaveri even with original specs is ready, are we to assume that the blades are stable at higher temperatures? that would definitely be a manufacturing breakthrough

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 29 Nov 2009 23:16

Would not a "ready Kaveri - to original specs" include blades stable at high temp? Or did the original specs not include such blades?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby SaiK » 29 Nov 2009 23:32

I think the question was under the assumptions that K-II to have SC blades. BTW, anything that goes in should have to clear the test hours been spent to establish all requirements criteria.

The more aspects its tested and the more hours it does, the better is a product. Its a matter of vital important to get the first version of Kaveri into LCA as a need basis, and just for the sake of doing the testing hours.

Once, we get the russian test clearance, the faster we should move to get TDs with Kaveri-I, higher the chance of Kaveri-II happening earlier.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby NRao » 29 Nov 2009 23:43

So, is "original specs" = "assumption of Kaveri-II"?

IIRC the original Kaveri refers to the specs established some 10-20 years ago.

Where do the JV (with proposed Snecma) and this Russia tested one are WRT the "original spec" engine is beyond me as I post.

But then confusion is part of the game I guess.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Patrick Cusack » 30 Nov 2009 02:20

So Kaveri really works? surprising development. I guess it is part of some strategy

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2009 07:22

Patrick Cusack wrote:So Kaveri really works? surprising development. I guess it is part of some strategy

:lol:

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby geeth » 30 Nov 2009 17:51

>>>But, it is overweight. I remember having read that it's weight was around 1100 kg against the design weight of 950 kg, lowering the T/W ratio considerably.

But the overall T/W ratio of the aircraft won't be affected too much - That is what determines the performance of the a/c. But then, if there is an increase of weight by 500-600 kgs in every segment, that is a different matter.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby enqyoob » 30 Nov 2009 22:49

Our very own Shook Law has started a "Choose the best yinjin for the YellCeeYea"

I am way too ignorant. Who is Shukla and why is military engine selection a matter of blogs and democratic choices?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby vina » 01 Dec 2009 10:38

Who is Shukla and why is military engine selection a matter of blogs and democratic choices?


You are right. I was just pulling your leg on this. As one poster replied tartly in the blog it seems like an Infinite Monkey Theorem exercise.

Shukla is Ajai Shukla , a former Colonel in the Indian Army, who is now a journalist and reports on defense matters in Business Standard and also NDTV (dont know if he still does the NDTV bit, havent' seen him on it in a while). One of the few guys who actually does leg work and takes the pain to visit the labs and talks to HAL etc and unlike most defense correspondents seems to have some gray matter between his ears and not perfect vacuum like the other worthies on the beat.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Dec 2009 11:02

it doesnt need to be > F404IN, just > WS10x.

H&D is important and so is matching the local a/c industry there ...

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby enqyoob » 03 Dec 2009 02:16

No, vina, seriously, where is his Blog? Too lazy/ short of time to browse back in the thread, sorry. This may be a good place to set up a few "pooch"es.....

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby negi » 03 Dec 2009 02:20


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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Dhanush » 12 Dec 2009 17:23

Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters


http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/12/ ... power.html

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Daedalus » 16 Dec 2009 14:52

I am just thinking out loud here, don't know if this was discussed here earlier.

Can the Kaveri core, Kabini, be used to develop a turboprop. If this can happen may be it can be used in Saras or in aircrafts with similar kind of configuration(using prop) which we may develop in the future.

Added later;

Does anybody know what are the specs for Kabini, and what all tests should it go through to achieve it. Please enlighten me.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Rahul M » 16 Dec 2009 16:16

going by jet engine cores that have been used to make turboprops or turboshafts (don't forget those !) kaveri based turboprop or turboshaft will probably be too big.

however if they create a smaller version, that can be used as a basis for a number of projects, UAVs, UCAVs, turboshafts for helos and turboprops for fixed wing aircraft.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby Daedalus » 16 Dec 2009 16:18

^^ Any study/attempt towards that you know of.

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby aditp » 16 Dec 2009 19:06

Wallah, Grand ayatollah mullah enqoob-ud-din-al-gas-turbiney may pardon the young SDRE mujahid's haraam attempt to tread on his turf.

You see, a turbojet / turbofan engine built for high speed flight employs axial flow compressor / turbine design for their relatively low drag. However, stage compression ratio being lower, several compressor stages are required ~ which increases the length before combustion chamber.

Aft of the combustion chambers, the axial turbine extracts the bare minimum work from the garam hawa that is required to keep the compressor or the turbo pankha running. This is followed by a longish tube called jet pipe to streamline the turbulent hawa from turine exit before nozzle entry.

Jihadi logic : lesser the work taken out of the hawa by the turbiney, lesser the prejjer drop, more garam the hawa at nojjle entry, more the scope for higher thrust = halal injun perphormance.

therephore --> axial combrejjar + turbiney (more length) = halal dejine for high speed flight

Turboprop

underlying priciple : Convert as much energy to mechanical work as possible to drive large pankha - whether for hawaijahaj or helikaptar.

Now, since much leeser amount of air passes through the the injun (okay it does, but only to the extent of 10% or so), drag induced by the compressor is not mucch of an issue. So one tends to use a centrifugal compressor for more compact front end dejine. Ditto for the turbiney - again centrifugal disc type turbiney. Now remember, dejine has been made to extract as much work as possible. This means the hawa at turbine exit will be very thandha and slow speed onree. No need to stabilize the flow through a jet pipe and no nojjle.

Overall shorter dejine onree, while ensuring all power of the jihad is being routed to the pankha by a halal shaft.


If you create a turboshaft out of the Kaveri, at best the turbine will be replaced. Replacing the compressor also, will be tantamount to an all new engine. No point there. Better start a new injun project with a separate jihadi team.

Clear hain?

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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Postby enqyoob » 16 Dec 2009 19:37

Totally halal, sweet as the ghazals of shrilleen. But note that I am powerless, no pun intended, to save you from Pingrej-Predator Al J-Gunullah etc.

If Kabini Kore is Konverted to turboshaft, it will be like the Original George Washington Axe: new handle, new blade, new pin, but otherwise totally original. Then again, based on performance figures, one could argue that the Kabini may not be designed for a jaldi-hawa jehadi-hawai-jehaj, but may be optimized for a marine engine. JUST KIDDING!! :eek:


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