Su-30: News and Discussion

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 06 Dec 2009 13:34

Defunct Humanity: 'Bars' upgrade potential

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 06 Dec 2009 21:13

shiv wrote:I still think it is a good idea to wait for accident investigation reports before reaching any conclusions.

Words of wisdom........

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 07 Dec 2009 14:36

Procurement of Sukhoi Aircraft

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 07 Dec 2009 16:51

Jamal K. Malik wrote:Procurement of Sukhoi Aircraft

but it accounts only for 180 aircrafts...what about rest of them..I think the numbers are as high as 280.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 07 Dec 2009 17:13

sumshyam wrote:
Jamal K. Malik wrote:Procurement of Sukhoi Aircraft
but it accounts only for 180 aircrafts...what about rest of them..I think the numbers are as high as 280.

50+140+40 = 230

Niraj_D · Post by **Niraj_D** » 07 Dec 2009 19:18

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... ukhoi.html

What's wrong with IAF's Sukhoi?

Even if temporary, the grounding of Sukhoi- 30MKI fighters of the Indian Air Force ( IAF) has opened up a huge gap in the country's air defence system.

Our Sukhois are currently located in the following manner - two squadrons in Pune, Maharashtra, two in Bareilly, Uttar Pradesh, and one in Tezpur, Assam. A sixth squadron was forming up in Jodhpur, Rajasthan, and it was from this squadron that the aircraft that crashed this week belonged. Each squadron has roughly 20 aircraft and the total India has is about 105 aircraft at present.

While the crash that took place in April was attributed to a defect in the computerised flight control system, the causes of the recent crash are yet to be determined, though it is supposed to have been caused by a fire in its engines. Whatever be the case, it has led to a grounding of the super- capable, but very expensive aircraft.

Though the Sukhoi, assisted by in- flight refuelling, has a very long range and can be brought into combat in virtually any part of India within a matter of hours, the location of the squadrons indicate that their primary task was, first, air defence over India's western peninsular areas where many of our key industrial centres and assets are located ( Jamnagar refinery, Kandla, Bombay High, Mumbai- Pune industrial belt and so on). The second major focus was air defence of our northern border with China.

What can fill this gap? " Nothing," according to an aviation analyst.

As a second line, India has three squadrons of Mirage 2000s and three of Mig 29s. They are located in Gwalior ( Mirage) and in Adampur and Jamnagar ( Migs). Neither in terms of range or capability can they even hope to fill the sudden gap that has emerged. In addition India has a number of squadrons of Mig- 21s in Rajasthan, Punjab and Kashmir, which can, at best, provide limited air defence over specific targets - an air base or a city.

In some ways the IAF has brought on the situation on itself.

An ideal air force has a pyramid structure with its best cuttingedge fighter on top, a tier- two workhorse and, at the bottom, large numbers of less capable tier- three fighters. By their current plan, the IAF could end up with an inverted pyramid. It could end up with as many as 280

heavy Sukhoi 30- MKI and around 126 medium fighters for which a competition is currently underway.

We have a total of about 250 Mig- 21s of varying vintages that should have been replaced yesterday.

Instead, they will be painfully slowly replaced by the LCA over the next 15 years.

The large number of Sukhois are not only very expensive ( officially $ 45 million, in reality Rs 350 crore per piece) to buy, but they are horrendously costly to operate and their serviceability is poor in any case.

But things don't look too good for the air force in the coming years. They have messed up their Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft ( MMRCA) competition by mixing apples and oranges, as it were. Instead of acquiring a Mig- 21 replacement - a light fighter like the Swedish Gripen, the American F- 16 or the Russian Mig- 29 - they have opened the competition for much more capable, heavier and expensive fighters like the Boeing FA18, the French Rafaele and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Should, for example any of the last named win the competition, we will have an air force of only top- of- the- line fighters, no workhorses.

And, if the LCA fails to measure up, the air force will try to fill the numbers with more MMRCA acquisitions which could complicate the situation further.

What an astute observation?

Somebody tell these media guys that the organization they are criticizing is by far one of the best Air force in on the planet. IAF completely knows its strategy & will never bow down to Govt. or any manufacturer to compromise its pattern.
MKI's serviceability is poor?? even EDITED will think thrice before making such statement.
Who is this aviation analyst??

Any takers for this article?

P.S. Sorry if repost.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Dec 2009 19:44

Niraj_D wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... ukhoi.html

What's wrong with IAF's Sukhoi?

Any takers for this article?

Good catch. My response - don;t know if it will appear
Manoj Joshiji - I think you are bluffing when you say "An ideal air force has a pyramid structure with its best cutting dge fighter on top, a tier- two workhorse and, at the bottom, large numbers of less capable tier- three fighters."

Who told you this? How many Air Forces classify their fighters as "cutting edge", "workhorse" and "less capable"

With respect sir - I think you are talking through your hat. In the old days with print media only - people with your level of knowledge had a free run. Fortunately the internet is changing that. I thank god for small mercies

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 08 Dec 2009 03:12

http://www.hindu.com/2009/12/08/stories ... 811000.htm

India, Russia ink accord on Gorshkov price

Vladimir Radyuhin & Sandeep Dikshit

The two sides also held talks on purchasing an additional 50 Sukhoi-MKI planes as well as fighters of the MiG-29 class for the indigenous aircraft carrier being built at Kochi. They also expressed satisfaction over the transfer of technology agreement reached for a certain type of missiles.

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 08 Dec 2009 17:59

shiv wrote:
Good catch. My response - don;t know if it will appear
Manoj Joshiji - I think you are bluffing when you say "An ideal air force has a pyramid structure with its best cutting dge fighter on top, a tier- two workhorse and, at the bottom, large numbers of less capable tier- three fighters."

Who told you this? How many Air Forces classify their fighters as "cutting edge", "workhorse" and "less capable"

With respect sir - I think you are talking through your hat. In the old days with print media only - people with your level of knowledge had a free run. Fortunately the internet is changing that. I thank god for small mercies

Well this got posted along with mine..

"Dear Sir. I am completely taken aback by the sheer lack of knowledge in your article. I hope you know that the Su30 are grounded as standard operating procedure and are available for use if needed as stated by the IAF. Also the Su30 have the best service record for a figher jet in the history of IAF. . I take it the pyramid structure is a figment of your imagination. This is nothing but extremely poor journalism"

Vivs · Post by **Vivs** » 08 Dec 2009 21:51

Here is a nice cutout of Rambha with details on armaments...Says more than 120 MKI produced so far!

http://en.rian.ru/infographics/20091125/156980751.html

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Dec 2009 21:55

^^ just a nitpick, the image they have used is not that of a mki, it's a su-30K.
note the lack of canards or the number (SB 010)

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 10 Dec 2009 17:27

Niraj_D wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... ukhoi.html
Any takers for this article?

None !!

I dont understand why Journalists venture into subjects that they dont have absolutely no clue or idea about ?

If you look-up just ANY aviation related article in the papers on ANY given day there's a high chance you'd spot at the very minimum one MAJOR discrepancy or misreporting.

One of the more famous recent example was Mid-Day's Front Page UN-Saif Landing about Saif Ali Khan being on a British Airways "AIRBUS 747-400" which landed back mins after take-off due to fire alarm.

Check-out the ludicrous drawings to elaborate something which was far from the truth - http://www.mid-day.com/news/2009/oct/02 ... areena.htm

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Dec 2009 17:39

http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2007/09 ... 402712.htm

We have a ton of intelligence on these type of devices. I guess there is good indigenization work ahead for DRDO labs.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 15 Dec 2009 09:43

Livefist: Sukhois over Kolkata for the first time

Guys, I can't see the canards here

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 15 Dec 2009 09:47

^^ They are parallel to the line of sight. If you strain your eyes you can just about make out.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 15 Dec 2009 09:51

^^^ Murphy ji

moi thinks that the cannards are actually being used and are canted upwards I think

and I am guessing bcoz its really sunny there is no condensation flying off there...

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 15 Dec 2009 10:31

^^^

If you guys could check out this image

The axis of rotation of the canards is quite in the centre of the flat section. Its clearly missing in the Kolkata pic. Don't you think?

Or is it because of poor image quality?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 15 Dec 2009 10:53

^^^ Aiyoo Murphy Ji

in both the above images the canards are in rest position-powered down u can see similar images of ze euro canards too...but in the livefist images Rambha is up in her element doing her thing....although it could quite be poor image quality as well...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Dec 2009 12:54

can you really make them out in the pic ? struck me as well when I saw it.

may be it has gone for a cleaning or re-painting !

"munna ! jao yeh canards harish chacha ka dukan se paint kar ke le ao !"

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 15 Dec 2009 20:23

Dmurphy ji, its possible that the canards are parallel to the line of sight of the photographer. That coupled with the not so sharp quality makes it look like they are missing.
Also note that the rudder is to the left, and the left flap is up while the right is down. The image was bang in the middle of some maneuver and might explain the position of the canards.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Dec 2009 22:08

Dmurphy wrote:Livefist: Sukhois over Kolkata for the first time

Guys, I can't see the canards here

Just the way the light is not reflecting off the plane.

You can very easily notice the flat/straight edge where the canard fits in.

Besides India does not fly around in carnard-less Sukhois. IAF gave up that soother long ago, now they are big boys who do not need such things.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Dec 2009 10:07

Rahul M wrote:can you really make them out in the pic ? struck me as well when I saw it.

may be it has gone for a cleaning or re-painting !
"munna ! jao yeh canards harish chacha ka dukan se paint kar ke le ao !"

its visible..its just that its deflected at such an angle that its almost parallel to the photographer's line of sight and with the poor quality of the image, its blurred..and the thin edge of the canard almost blends in with the background, but if you look closely its visible.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 25 Dec 2009 22:42

shameekg wrote:Dmurphy ji, its possible that the canards are parallel to the line of sight of the photographer.

Exactly !
If you look in the pic below, one has to really go looking to find them due to the angle from which it was shot in respect to position of the canards.

NRao wrote:Besides India does not fly around in carnard-less Sukhois. IAF gave up that soother long ago, now they are big boys who do not need such things.

Which is great except I was on IAF's website just recently, they have a Photo Gallery Section for the Su-30.
Surprisingly, photos are of almost exclusively Canardless ones - http://indianairforce.nic.in/show_galle ... 39&pg_id=3

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 25 Dec 2009 23:07

Vishal Jolapara wrote:
Surprisingly, photos are of almost exclusively Canardless ones - http://indianairforce.nic.in/show_galle ... 39&pg_id=3

the section for Su30 does have MKI shots btw..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Dec 2009 23:08

that is the canardless version (su-30k), not a canarded version that was flying around without the canards !

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 25 Dec 2009 23:26

I'm nitpicking, but the IAF Su-30 gallery has a typo in the photograph description. One of the pics is captioned 'Tale off' which should be take off. I hope they correct it soon. Does not look good on the official website.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 25 Dec 2009 23:40

shameekg wrote:I'm nitpicking, but the IAF Su-30 gallery has a typo in the photograph description. One of the pics is captioned 'Tale off' which should be take off. I hope they correct it soon. Does not look good on the official website.

i noticed it too, however, it is much better/tolerable than the "CURSING range" of 400KM of the al khalid !!

@ Rahul M : which pic are you referring to , Saar ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Dec 2009 01:58

IAF gallery ones, referred to by vishal.

added later : check the link in vishal jolapara's post above !

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Dec 2009 15:10

Excellent page on MKI camo schemes:
http://www.mars.slupsk.pl/fort/sukhoi/su-30-in.htm

Can anyone ID this munition:

By vayusena at 2009-12-28

Perhaps Kab-500 ... but looks different

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Dec 2009 15:27

Aditya G wrote:Excellent page on MKI camo schemes:
http://www.mars.slupsk.pl/fort/sukhoi/su-30-in.htm

Nice site:

Try this for Su lineage

Nah. Something is wrong. It shows Chinese J-11B is a derivative of the Su-27SK. Cannot be. china does not copy anything, since Mao dreamt of these things long before.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Dec 2009 15:41

Aditya G wrote:Excellent page on MKI camo schemes:
http://www.mars.slupsk.pl/fort/sukhoi/su-30-in.htm

Can anyone ID this munition:

By vayusena at 2009-12-28
.......

KH-35 anti ship missile.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Dec 2009 16:49

NRao wrote:Nah. Something is wrong. It shows Chinese J-11B is a derivative of the Su-27SK. Cannot be. china does not copy anything, since Mao dreamt of these things long before.

Whatever be the colour of the cat, it still catches the mouse!

Rahul - are you sure about the Kh-35. I have another picture which shows it has a EO nose. AFAIK Kh-35 is not EO guided.

There is another favorite picture of mine somewhere in BR Aeroindia gallery of Lightnings but cant locate it in the labyrinth.

Edit: the attached pic is by Simon garu

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 28 Dec 2009 17:00

^^^ IIRC that is actually a KH 59 training round the Watson and Camp book of Flanker in Indian service had a few pics of the same as well.

The book reckons that it is a KH59 M training round.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Dec 2009 19:09

andy B wrote:^^^ IIRC that is actually a KH 59 training round the Watson and Camp book of Flanker in Indian service had a few pics of the same as well.

The book reckons that it is a KH59 M training round.

Agreed. That is it.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Dec 2009 20:23

AG, if it has an EO seeker as you say (can't make that out from this pic, could you post the other pic) then Kh-59 is the only possible one. otherwise the kh-35 is a possibility. I do remember reports(telegraph IIRC) from late '98 that the kh-35 was bought by IAF.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Dec 2009 22:59

Hmmm thats likely to be DDM. There is no concrete information that air launched Kh-35 is in service with IAF, though there is some evidence that IN may have inducted it. Now especially with induction of MiG-29K.

The only IAF units in maritime role equipped with MiG-27ML and Jaguar IM, none of which are mated with this missile. And 20 sqn has Kh-31.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Dec 2009 04:19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8C06dHhlXc

The "Irbis-E" is an advanced multi-mode Passive Electronically Scanned Array (PESA) radar system developed by Tikhomirov NIIP for the Su-35 multi-role fighter aircraft. NIIP developed the new radar based on the previous "Bars" radar system which is mounted on the Su-30MKI (used by the Indian AF).

"Irbis" development started in 2004 and the first radar prototype entered flight tests onboard an Su-30M2 aircraft acting as a test bed in early 2007. The resulting radar system provides air-to-air, air-to-sea and air-to-ground (ground mapping, Doppler beam sharpening and Synthetic Aperture radar modes) modes with improved performance in intense clutter environments.

Further info on the Irbis can be found at:
http://www.deagel.com/Aircraft-Warner...

Video source:
Tikhomirov NIIP
http://www.niip.ru/

Vinito · Post by **Vinito** » 29 Dec 2009 06:00

Aditya G wrote:Hmmm thats likely to be DDM. There is no concrete information that air launched Kh-35 is in service with IAF, though there is some evidence that IN may have inducted it. Now especially with induction of MiG-29K.

The only IAF units in maritime role equipped with MiG-27ML and Jaguar IM, none of which are mated with this missile. And 20 sqn has Kh-31.

Wasnt the decision by the GOI to upgrade the IL-38 & Tu-142(which did not happen) with the Morskoi Zmei (Sea Dragon) sensor suite specifically based around the requirement to equip them with the Kh-35 Uran missiles alongwith the other significant upgrades?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 29 Dec 2009 06:22

Hmm...I was going through the Cam and Watson book of SU30 in Indian Service this morning and noticed a very interesting picture of a two seater IN Harrier being flanked by two MKI's on both sides now that would be a very interesting DACT excercise...wonder how would the WVR regime would unfold between the two...

"In Vectored Thrust we Trust....

"

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 29 Dec 2009 06:27

Rahul M wrote:AG, if it has an EO seeker as you say (can't make that out from this pic, could you post the other pic) then Kh-59 is the only possible one. otherwise the kh-35 is a possibility. I do remember reports(telegraph IIRC) from late '98 that the kh-35 was bought by IAF.

Just thinking about the EO seeker weapons that an MKI would ideally carry would be the KH29, KH59, Kab 500, KAB 1500 (cant remember if there is a TV version of the Big KAB) and possibly Popeye/Crystal Maze if the ebil Yindoos have already integrated it with the MKI...what else am I missing???