Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 13 Dec 2009 14:46

I can't think of any advantages that Dhanush offers over K-15 or Shaurya. Why is it still being tested unless DRDO is validating some other technology in guise ?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 13 Dec 2009 18:04

It is a user trial. Unlike the K15, the Dhanush is actually in service.

In future, when SLBMs begin to carry the naval component of the nuclear deterrent triad, we may see the Dhanush system evolve into a ship-borne ABM one.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Dec 2009 18:37

But it is interesting you have 1/2 ton payload on dhanush for surface(sea) based targets!, why?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Dec 2009 23:17

wherever did you get the idea that dhanush is meant for sea based targets ?
it's a land attack missile.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Dec 2009 03:49

Rahul M wrote:wherever did you get the idea that dhanush is meant for sea based targets ?
it's a land attack missile.

So its ddmities then!!

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12071
'Dhanush' has a payload capacity of 500 kilograms and is capable of carrying both conventional and nuclear warheads. It can hit both sea and shore-based targets.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 14 Dec 2009 04:53

SaiK wrote:But it is interesting you have 1/2 ton payload on dhanush for surface(sea) based targets!, why?

Maybe its a step towards developing multiple warhead carrying capacity.

jamwal wrote:What's the use of Dhanush ? It has neither range nor a big payload.

I don't think 500 kgs can be considered a small payload.
Also, it doesn't hurt to master multiple technologies its much better than keeping all our eggs in the Brahmos basket.
And it would have a different trajectory then the cruise missiles, I think that would present a different challenge to anyone trying to stop them.

In any case, congratulations to DRDO and the Navy on this successful test.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Dec 2009 06:06

The difference between the Dhanush and the Prithvi I guess would be a system that is compatible with the high salinity environment of the sea. (OTOH the land based Prithvi's have to survive the rigors of road transportation and the dust.

Since there will not be pre-surveyed spots for the Dhanush to fire off, I suppose there will be some sort of sat navigation in there. Or at least the launch platform will have such a system.

The rest is the L&T stabilizer cum launcher which can keep the missile stable and still launch it in mildly rough seas.

Finally, the Dhanush are N tipped. Because the navy is saying that they are a Nuclear force. Only the sukanya class carry the system.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Dec 2009 06:55

Dhanush has liquid propellant? On a sea based missile wouldn't a solid propellant be better?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Dec 2009 07:27

Some more info on the Dhanush test by TSS

It was fired by Navy personnel as part of a user-training exercise.. . . The sources said the 350-km-range missile met all the velocity, height and guidance parameters. The radar systems of the Integrated Test Range (ITR), located along the coast, monitored the entire trajectory of the vehicle, which flew for 520 seconds before zeroing in on the target with a circular error probability (CEP) of below 10 metres. . . . Rear Admiral C.S. Patham, who is Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Strategic Forces Command, were aboard INS Subhadra to witness the launch.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Dec 2009 09:23

may be its an aircraft carrier killer?

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 14 Dec 2009 09:48

If it has a range of 1000 km atleast then ok else does not serve the purpose.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Dec 2009 10:15

May be Dhanush-II would be having that range?.. and CEP of around 10meters is not good for sea based moving targets, imho.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Dec 2009 10:23

If it has radar scene correlation, and terminal guidance, it can theoretically be used on a big ship too.

I don't expect the stated CEP to be accurate. If the scientists say 10m it has to be better.

But the most probable use is on stationary land targets.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 14 Dec 2009 11:09

SaiK wrote:May be Dhanush-II would be having that range?.. and CEP of around 10meters is not good for sea based moving targets, imho.

ummm, respectfully sir, when a 500 KG warhead is going to detonate within 10 metres of any ship, I am guessing it will cause more than minor plumbing issues in it.

vavinash wrote:If it has a range of 1000 km atleast then ok else does not serve the purpose.

The Pakistani Navy is going to hug the Karachi ports like they have always done, in which case we don't need 1000km missiles to target them. 350 km, is much more than the distance between Delhi and Agra. We just need to get a few ships close enough to launch. In any case we need to have a mixture of small, medium and long range missiles. Even U.S. and Russia have short range missile systems. So, why can't a successful well tested missile system such as this be part of our arsenal?

kit · Post by **kit** » 14 Dec 2009 12:35

VijayKumarSinha wrote:
SaiK wrote:May be Dhanush-II would be having that range?.. and CEP of around 10meters is not good for sea based moving targets, imho.
ummm, respectfully sir, when a 500 KG warhead is going to detonate within 10 metres of any ship, I am guessing it will cause more than minor plumbing issues in it.

vavinash wrote:If it has a range of 1000 km atleast then ok else does not serve the purpose.
The Pakistani Navy is going to hug the Karachi ports like they have always done, in which case we don't need 1000km missiles to target them. 350 km, is much more than the distance between Delhi and Agra. We just need to get a few ships close enough to launch. In any case we need to have a mixture of small, medium and long range missiles. Even U.S. and Russia have short range missile systems. So, why can't a successful well tested missile system such as this be part of our arsenal?

Tactical nukes .. Neutron warheads

but most likely themobaric warheads ?

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 14 Dec 2009 13:29

kit wrote:
Tactical nukes .. Neutron warheads but most likely themobaric warheads ?

My point is simply that if apparently a 1000 lb jehadi Inc. shape charge is able to inflict the kind of damage that it did on USS Cole, than a 1100 lb military warhead -whatever it might be- should inflict significant damage to a ship or a shore based asset, if it explodes within 10-50 metres of it.

NRao wrote:Dhanush has liquid propellant? On a sea based missile wouldn't a solid propellant be better?

The wiki page for it

says that the Prithvi variants make use of either liquid or both liquid and solid fuels. It doesn't provide any link to that information. So maybe the person who wrote it was only as enlightened as me.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 14 Dec 2009 13:45

vavinash wrote:If it has a range of 1000 km atleast then ok else does not serve the purpose.

The first thing that comes to mind when I think of something similar to Dhanush is the RIM-161 SM-3. SM-3 serves as an Antisat and ABM weapon. Maybe in addition to being deployed as an land-attack missile, DRDO wants Dhanush to eventually evolve into an ABM similar to how Prithvi evolved into PAD. Dhanush could well serve as a ship based ABM. But, only destroyers on the higher end and cruisers can deploy this missile in the numbers required.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Dec 2009 14:09

Some random thoughts:

If they are looking at sea based targets, 1000km range does you no good. Thats around 7 minutes till impact, enough for a ship to have moved 2-3km or more in an unknown direction (unless of course you can do some realtime tracking and guidance). More importantly, the possibility of finding targets within 1000sqkm is v.difficult.

Otoh, something like the Dhanush may find use in theater level ops within its range ~ 200km. It is much faster than a Brahmos and will cover the distance within a minute or so, wherein the target(s) could not have moved too far away (perhaps about 500-1000 meters in a given direction). That should be enough area to be covered by a warhead with cluster munitions at worst and possibly MIRV or guided munitions. Plus, reentry speeds won't allow PlaN/PN ships to counter it.
JMT

CM.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Dec 2009 14:25

REAL TIME TARGETING !!
without that there can be NO anti-ship version of a missile. dhanush does NOT have such a thing. THEREFORE it is meant for static targets. ships are NOT static targets !

I don't know where this idea of anti-ship dhanush comes from ? as of now there is no such thing, all targets of dhanush have been on land. in the absence of a submarine launched BM this was the best IN could have.

AFAWK solid fueled prithvi is as real as the yeti, bigfoot and the B-3 stealth bomber.

Otoh, something like the Dhanush may find use in theater level ops within its range ~ 200km. It is much faster than a Brahmos and will cover the distance within a minute or so, wherein the target(s) could not have moved too far away (perhaps about 500-1000 meters in a given direction). That should be enough area to be covered by a warhead with cluster munitions at worst and possibly MIRV or guided munitions. Plus, reentry speeds won't allow PlaN/PN ships to counter it.

only nukes and big ones at that will do.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Dec 2009 14:42

Rahul M wrote: Otoh, something like the Dhanush may find use in theater level ops within its range ~ 200km. It is much faster than a Brahmos and will cover the distance within a minute or so, wherein the target(s) could not have moved too far away (perhaps about 500-1000 meters in a given direction). That should be enough area to be covered by a warhead with cluster munitions at worst and possibly MIRV or guided munitions. Plus, reentry speeds won't allow PlaN/PN ships to counter it.

only nukes and big ones at that will do.[/quote]

In all problity yes, wonlee nukes will do. Steel rain type stuff ain't going to cause much damage to a destroyer. Although might take a toll on human and marine life!

CM.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 14 Dec 2009 15:42

LRSAM and MRSAM costs

The cost of project for LRSAM is Rs. 2606.02 crore and cost of project for MRSAM is Rs. 10075 crore. Both the missiles being developed are comparable in performance and cost to missiles available in their class in the world market.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Dec 2009 17:06

From the PIB link above

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Asaduddin Owaisi in Lok Sabha today.

Just noticed that the said gentleman above has been in the past asking a lot of questions regarding price of defence purchases, details and collaboration with Isearel a lot in the past.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 14 Dec 2009 17:28

Aditya_V wrote:From the PIB link above
This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Asaduddin Owaisi in Lok Sabha today.
Just noticed that the said gentleman above has been in the past asking a lot of questions regarding price of defence purchases, details and collaboration with Isearel a lot in the past.

I did a simple google search of his name and found a plethora of videos on Youtube where he seems to be raising some valid points about communal violence in India.

But the fact that he has also been asking questions about our military co-operation with Israel has me disconcerted.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 Dec 2009 18:07

IMHO if the Navy has indeed fielded the Dhanush system, it is a good sign with regards to capacity building within the navy. The navy needs to be equipped with a nuclear capable weapon, and needs to train and develop procedures.

The nuclear capability at sea is a major milestone for India. When push comes to shove IN can launch a nuclear strike against an enemy flotilla.

Note that the a three star officer from the Strategic Forces Command was witness. Rest assured he wasnt there to enjoy a cuppa tea.

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Dec 2009 18:18

Any info on the Nirbhay? Even 2009 is drawing to a close...

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 14 Dec 2009 18:26

Aditya G wrote:IMHO if the Navy has indeed fielded the Dhanush system, it is a good sign with regards to capacity building within the navy. The navy needs to be equipped with a nuclear capable weapon, and needs to train and develop procedures.

The nuclear capability at sea is a major milestone for India. When push comes to shove IN can launch a nuclear strike against an enemy flotilla.

Note that the a three star officer from the Strategic Forces Command was witness. Rest assured he wasnt there to enjoy a cuppa tea.

Aditya, that is what I was thinking as Rahul has said, this system is ineffective against a single ship but can definitely be used a flotilla or Panda's aircraft carrier group advancing towards India If nukes have already been used. Also, If Panda uses nukes against us, we could hit back at all their ports in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Myanmmar.

sumshyam wrote:Ok...guyz here is a typical link....! [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwpWRty6AVg[/youtube]

I am sorry to be off the topic...I could not resist posting it...!

Sumshyam your link is not working. You havn't put the link in the [youtube] tag the right way. It was a good propaganda piece on his part. He obviously has a beef with Israel. Good Video.

Singha wrote:for those of you who havn't piloted.....

Sir, I salute you.

Tussi amazing ho!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Dec 2009 19:27

very very unlikely that dhanush is intended for use against a flotilla at sea. its capabilities don't add up and the returns for taking such a huge and risky step will be minimal. using brahmos is a much more realistic and probable option.

dhanush is out and out meant for nuclear and conventional attacks against targets in pakistani mainland, nothing more, nothing less.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 14 Dec 2009 19:33

Rahul M wrote: dhanush is out and out meant for nuclear and conventional attacks against targets in pakistani mainland, nothing more, nothing less.

hmmmmm....Indian Hard liner....

!

I liked it...

!

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 15 Dec 2009 10:50

Rahul M wrote:very very unlikely that dhanush is intended for use against a flotilla at sea. its capabilities don't add up and the returns for taking such a huge and risky step will be minimal. using brahmos is a much more realistic and probably option.

dhanush is out and out meant for nuclear and conventional attacks against targets in pakistani mainland, nothing more, nothing less.

Let IN and DRDO start working on a naval Agni III. We can use our older about-to-be-discarded ships as a trial platform e.g. Leanders. Imagine that we have say 6 ships each with say 4 - 6 IRBMs / XYBMs. They may not be as "stealthy" as a submarine. But I assume that they offer a better second strike capability than land based IRBMs / XYBMs.

Second Phase : Let us have some ships, say the Kashins, with say 4 Dhanush and 8 Brahmos launchers. Afte we get P 15Bs the Kashin may probably be on their way out.

I am letting my imagination run wild. Let us have strategic attack ships capital ships, each with say 8 Agni III IRBMs (Agni V ICBMs) AND 8 Nirbhay or K 15 or Sagarika (or whatever-you-call-it) a long range cruise missiles. This will give us abetter punch than a 'Suknaya' class with Dhanush. These could fit into a 7,000 - 8,000 MT vessel along with the usual LR/MR/SR radars, SAMs, CIWS, ASW helicopter etc. Call it P 18 !!!

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 15 Dec 2009 10:54

** Double Post deleted **

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 15 Dec 2009 14:25

Agni-II tests and Agni-III tests coming up in January

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 15 Dec 2009 17:22

deleted.

arya · Post by **arya** » 15 Dec 2009 23:07

Kailash wrote:Agni-II tests and Agni-III tests coming up in January

shubh kamna, [hindi] goodluck[all of u know]
dahi machali [in kanpuriya style ]

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 16 Dec 2009 02:58

Kailash wrote:<span>Agni-II tests and Agni-III tests coming up in [url=<a linkindex="78" href="http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... kuKw=&SEO=]January[/url]" class="smarterwiki-linkify">http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... kuKw=&SEO=]January[/url]</a></span>

The reporter misquoted the throw weight of A-III
its not 1500kg,its actually is 2450Kg.
And more over the development trails of A-III were over.Probably this test might be the one to enhance confidence in the user.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 16 Dec 2009 03:36

jaladipc wrote: The reporter misquoted the throw weight of A-III
its not 1500kg,its actually is 2450Kg.
And more over the development trails of A-III were over.Probably this test might be the one to enhance confidence in the user.

I am sure we have complete confidence in the USER (Indian armed forces), I think it might be to enhance confidence in the missle system instead...
I could be wrong though

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 17 Dec 2009 16:01

Armed Forces Lose Sleep over Delivery Systems
The Times of India

There have also been reports in recent days that Pakistan now has a nuclear arsenal of 70-90 warheads compared to India’s 60-80. (WTFu )

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 17 Dec 2009 17:09

Juggi G wrote:Armed Forces Lose Sleep over Delivery Systems
The Times of India
There have also been reports in recent days that Pakistan now has a nuclear arsenal of 70-90 warheads compared to India’s 60-80. (WTFu )

The article as usual claims info only from "top military officer" , "sources" or "reports". This should never be trusted , especially with the ToI , of late their sensationalism has no bouds. The only names mentioned are Kakodkar , Saraswat and Santhanam , all that they had to say is already well known.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 17 Dec 2009 19:44

^^ K.Subrahmanyam has already clarified on that aspect, if i'm not wrong.

As per media reports, the developement trials of Agni-3 are over and probably the next trial could be a user trial. Atleast we Indians are doing what we are saying - with increasing experience and simulation, the no. tests actually needed are coming down.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 17 Dec 2009 23:34

Nihat wrote:
Juggi G wrote:Armed Forces Lose Sleep over Delivery Systems
Rajat Pandit, TNN 16 December 2009, 03:43am IST
The Times of India
There have also been reports in recent days that Pakistan now has a nuclear arsenal of 70-90 warheads compared to India’s 60-80. (WTFu )
The article as usual claims info only from "top military officer" , "sources" or "reports". This should never be trusted , especially with the ToI , of late their sensationalism has no bouds. The only names mentioned are Kakodkar , Saraswat and Santhanam , all that they had to say is already well known.

What else can one expect from Rajat Pandit. As always take this cr@p with a truckload of salt, iodized variety onree

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 18 Dec 2009 00:02

It's hard to fault the reporter for stating the obvious. There have been precious few user trials for missiles and none for the N-bombs.