Indian Military Aviation

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Dec 2009 08:58

symontk wrote: Also in the morning, saw one oversized flatbed truck covered around HAL premises.
Hope something good is happening

Was carrying a huge turbine....not sure for what it was.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Dec 2009 10:01

Kersi D wrote: MY QUESTION. INANSWERED SINCEA LONG TIME.

WHAT IS CRYSTAL MAZE ?????

link

The Crystal Maze missile is a new development based on the Popeye air-to-surface standoff missile manufactured by Rafael. The Crystal Maze air-to-surface missile has been designed to destroy bunkers and buried fortifications from ranges of 80 km to 100 km with an impressive Circular Error Probable (CEP) below 3 meters. The airborne-launched, TV-guided missile carries an 80 kg warhead/penetrator. The Crystal Maze aircraft-launched missile was sold to India in 2005 thus that country gaining outstanding precision offensive capabilities over its closest neighbors China ad Pakistan.

and this was reported way back in 2005

Crystal Maze loses its way during second test
Rahul Bedi JDW Correspondent
New Delhi

The Rafael Armament Development Authority¹s medium-range stand-off AGM-142 Raptor Have Nap/Popeye missile, specially configured for the Indian Air Force (IAF), has proved unsuccessful in its second 'validation' test, which took place in April in the western Rajasthan desert.

Fired from a Mirage 2000H fighter, the missile - codenamed Crystal Maze by the IAF - missed its target and exploded 50 m away.

In its first 'validation' firing, which took place in December 2004, the missile struck the reinforced concrete target accurately, piercing it to a depth of 2 m, but did not detonate due to an apparent problem with the fuze.

Under the December 2001 contract for 30 AGM-142s, worth around Rs2.70 billion ($62.7 million), two validation test firings were required by mid-2005. Thereafter, 15 missiles were to be delivered by June and the balance by December.

Ministry of Defence sources indicated that the penalty clause for delayed delivery would come into effect due to the two failed tests, with another round of launches likely before year-end.

The AGM-142/Crystal Maze missile is powered by a solid-propellant rocket motor and has an inertial guidance system equipped with datalink and a TV/imaging infra-red homing device. The datalink provides for single aircraft operation but the munitions guidance system can be turned over to a second aircraft, allowing the first to leave the operational area. The missile is intended to arm the IAF's Mirage 2000H fighters.

Meanwhile, the IAF has issued a request for information involving 100 advanced air-to-surface missiles with a 200 km range. The request has gone to Israel Military Industries, Boeing of the US, Denel of South Africa and France's MBDA.

and a very detailed article by Carlo Kopp on the AGM-142 Popeye from which the Crystal Maze is derived

link

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 16 Dec 2009 11:21

I know that the yanks had conducted a detail study of the Mig-21. But that was sometime ago....can someone point me to an area where how would a current US like a Mig-21 to be so that it can be sold in the market.

That I think I have not seen that.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 16 Dec 2009 20:51

sum wrote:
symontk wrote: Also in the morning, saw one oversized flatbed truck covered around HAL premises.
Hope something good is happening
Was carrying a huge turbine....not sure for what it was.

for Wind Tunnel?? for High Altitude testing facility??

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 16 Dec 2009 21:51

viveks wrote:I know that the yanks had conducted a detail study of the Mig-21. But that was sometime ago....can someone point me to an area where how would a current US like a Mig-21 to be so that it can be sold in the market.

That I think I have not seen that.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 17 Dec 2009 03:04

IAF refuelling aircraft wait gets longer

...
...
The Finance Ministry took objection to the selection of the Airbus 330 MRTT, given that the deal would cost upwards of Rs 8,000 crore against the estimated budget of Rs 5,000 crore set by the Defence Ministry. On the other hand, the fleet of Russian-built IL 78 would have cost the exchequer Rs 4,800 crore.

The Finance Ministry also pointed out that the IAF already operates a fleet of the IL 78 refueling aircraft, the last of which was inducted in late 2004, making it easier to induct a larger number of the aircraft.

Sources said that the ministry could now go in for a fresh procurement process and call more contenders for the trials in order to get a better deal. As per the rules governing defence deals, the government can at any time cancel an ongoing procurement without giving any reason for the change.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 17 Dec 2009 03:09

Oh Great. So the whole IAf is stuck with just 6 refuellers for now.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 17 Dec 2009 03:19

vavinash wrote:Oh Great. So the whole IAf is stuck with just 6 refuellers for now.

Why rebid? Just go with the entry that lost the original bid. Guess there is no real hurry!

CM.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 17 Dec 2009 03:28

In all fairness A-330 is superior but IAF already has logistic for Il-78. Makes sense to get 6-8 more quickly.

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 17 Dec 2009 07:39

In all fairness A-330 is superior but IAF already has logistic for Il-78. Makes sense to get 6-8 more quickly.

It does make sense if the IAF wants the aircraft quickly but wouldn't it make more sense to order the A-330 and over the years just standardize the A-330 for the tanker fleet?? The A-330 is more versatile anyway.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 17 Dec 2009 07:47

HAL’s global projects hit air pockets after aircraft crashes
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/HA ... es/555052/

Sukhoi's crash India's defense
http://asiasentinel.com/index.php?optio ... Itemid=164

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Dec 2009 09:12

The Finance Ministry also pointed out that the IAF already operates a fleet of the IL 78 refueling aircraft, the last of which was inducted in late 2004, making it easier to induct a larger number of the aircraft.

Kind of agree with this logic though the reasons for IAF dissatisfaction with Il-78 are not known to me

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 17 Dec 2009 10:44

Is This thing permissible i mean MOF is just concerned about the price do they actually now that how and where A 330 is superior and hidden costs Russians put across you in terms of delays and all ..

I am really surprised that re bid is even thought of . IAF and MOD should have the selection to their discretion to chose the best . Few more dollars are no bigger then human life and national security

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 17 Dec 2009 11:47

parshuram wrote:Is This thing permissible i mean MOF is just concerned about the price do they actually now that how and where A 330 is superior and hidden costs Russians put across you in terms of delays and all ..

Can you elaborate on the "hidden costs" with the russians? WHile at it could you also let us know if and how mil hardware from other countries are not ever delayed etc?

I am really surprised that re bid is even thought of . IAF and MOD should have the selection to their discretion to chose the best . Few more dollars are no bigger then human life and national security

"few more dollars" could very well be to the tunes of 100s of millions. Afterall, the millions who could use basic services in the country (including food and sustenance) are human too or are they expendable? The MOF, and for that matter the GOI has to balance a lot of things, and for most nations, esp. India, hardware is not easy to buy irrespective of how badly the IAF "wants" it. Perhaps the IL-76 meets the need while the 330 meets the want according to the MOF. Afterall, the VVS manages with the Candid despite the vast reaches it has to deal with.

Lets just be patient and see where the wind blows shall we?

CM.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 17 Dec 2009 12:04

Cain Marko wrote:
parshuram wrote:Is This thing permissible i mean MOF is just concerned about the price do they actually now that how and where A 330 is superior and hidden costs Russians put across you in terms of delays and all ..
Can you elaborate on the "hidden costs" with the russians? WHile at it could you also let us know if and how mil hardware from other countries are not ever delayed etc?

I am really surprised that re bid is even thought of . IAF and MOD should have the selection to their discretion to chose the best . Few more dollars are no bigger then human life and national security
"few more dollars" could very well be to the tunes of 100s of millions. Afterall, the millions who could use basic services in the country (including food and sustenance) are human too or are they expendable? The MOF, and for that matter the GOI has to balance a lot of things, and for most nations, esp. India, hardware is not easy to buy irrespective of how badly the IAF "wants" it. Perhaps the IL-76 meets the need while the 330 meets the want according to the MOF. Afterall, the VVS manages with the Candid despite the vast reaches it has to deal with.

Lets just be patient and see where the wind blows shall we?

CM.

Cain if that was so hard to deject of IL 78 then why would IAF even considered A 330 even for the first time providing that we are not only handling IL 78 but have a logistic setup already .

I guess the comparison has already been put here by gurus regarding that that had prompted IAF to go with A 330 and there has been instances from couple of years where Russians has dented our confidence Sukhoi's, AG which has seen intervention from PMO to resolve that and even that has ended in we giving them more money and delay

At least stats say that french are more credible

and of course when you buy a airplane that is going to cost you millions aka few dollars but for me if i spend more and really get state of art and performance i am all for it

i am not against a regulatory body over the purchases but just because your simply denying the buy just because it cost more is not done.

IAF knows what they are doing and they should be given a thought

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Dec 2009 13:15

IMHO, LCH( or some other thin helo) buzzing around HAL today.
Saw a helo from far away distance and it looks thinner than our usual ALH. Could anyone confirm?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 17 Dec 2009 13:34

parshuram wrote:I guess the comparison has already been put here by gurus regarding that that had prompted IAF to go with A 330 and there has been instances from couple of years where Russians has dented our confidence Sukhoi's, AG which has seen intervention from PMO to resolve that and even that has ended in we giving them more money and delay

The comparison was about performance as a motivation for the IAF to choose the 330. AFAIK the comparison was NOT about motivation due to RUssian's denting confidence in anything, least of all the Sukhois. The MKI has a stellar record in the IAF and the last two crashes hardly changes that - 2 in 12 years is frankly amazing for a new type.

Price hikes: how much does russian hardware cost after all price hikes vis a vis western counterparts - shall we use the M2k-5 vs Baaz example? After haggling for two years the IAF is still stuck at paying $ 1.8 billion to upgrade 50 M2ks.

Delays: There are delays in Scorpenes as well with reports about the french being a little reluctant to part with technology. World over, east or west, delays are quite common in procurement, the russians hardly have any monopoly on this.

At least stats say that french are more credible

What stats? Can you put them up?

IAF knows what they are doing and they should be given a thought

What makes you think that the IAF is not given a thought? If the GOI thinks any more than they already do, i don't think they'd ever buy anything. Considering today's global economic woes, prudence is not a bad idea. Like I said before, there are a lot of things that have to bewighed bfore $$$s are allocated. And for all you know the cancellation could be because of a totally differenct reason. So lets not jump to conclusions and make like the ruskis are armtwisting or the MOF is being capricious.
P
CM

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Dec 2009 17:15

AoA,

Scans courtesy Vayu

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Dec 2009 17:15

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Dec 2009 17:17

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 17 Dec 2009 21:35

High-level inquiry into PM's aircraft damage

http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20091217/8 ... inqui.html

Prime minister's two special aircrafts are known as Agra & Khajuraho.
I think this is the first time any report has mentioned the official names of the two aircrafts .

Others may already know it, so if moderators feel this is off topic, they can delete this post.

Apologies in advance.

Thanks

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Dec 2009 23:32

thank you Nayak !

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 17 Dec 2009 23:38

sunny y wrote:High-level inquiry into PM's aircraft damage

http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20091217/8 ... inqui.html

Prime minister's two special aircrafts are known as Agra & Khajuraho.
I think this is the first time any report has mentioned the official names of the two aircrafts .

Others may already know it, so if moderators feel this is off topic, they can delete this post.

Apologies in advance.

Thanks

These two aircraft are the old Air India Boeing 747s and they were named that by Air India around 15 years back. These are now being withdrawn from active service and are being used only for Hajj flights, and VIP flights. There were some reports that the IAF had taken 3 Boeing 747s from AI for VIP flights. It might be these aircraft

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 18 Dec 2009 12:34

These two aircraft are the old Air India Boeing 747s and they were named that by Air India around 15 years back. These are now being withdrawn from active service and are being used only for Hajj flights, and VIP flights. There were some reports that the IAF had taken 3 Boeing 747s from AI for VIP flights. It might be these aircraft

Thanks for the info sir. I thought these were the names of the new BBJ's that we recently bought.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 Dec 2009 18:16

sum wrote:IMHO, LCH( or some other thin helo) buzzing around HAL today.
Saw a helo from far away distance and it looks thinner than our usual ALH. Could anyone confirm?

Sir,
Are you talking about a white thin heli??? it could have been the hughes bird operated by the HAL's flight school... been watching the skies over HAL airport for any activity from my 6th floor perch in Manipal Hospital over the last couple of weeks but couldn't find the LCH in air at any time...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Dec 2009 18:28

Bala Vignesh wrote:
sum wrote:IMHO, LCH( or some other thin helo) buzzing around HAL today.
Saw a helo from far away distance and it looks thinner than our usual ALH. Could anyone confirm?
Sir,
Are you talking about a white thin heli??? it could have been the hughes bird operated by the HAL's flight school... been watching the skies over HAL airport for any activity from my 6th floor perch in Manipal Hospital over the last couple of weeks but couldn't find the LCH in air at any time...

The HAL flight school operates Schweizer 300C and Schweizer 330SP.
Chetak and ALH.

No Hughes saar

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 Dec 2009 18:40

parshuram wrote:Is This thing permissible i mean MOF is just concerned about the price do they actually now that how and where A 330 is superior and hidden costs Russians put across you in terms of delays and all ..

I am really surprised that re bid is even thought of . IAF and MOD should have the selection to their discretion to chose the best . Few more dollars are no bigger then human life and national security

Parshuram sir,
I am pretty sure that the FinMin commissions its own guys to analyze the request from the DefMin (based on what my uncle said)... and based on both the reports the fund is allocated to the project... so may be the FinMin thought that the Midas was doing a yeoman job for the price we pay for it... and decided that the although the A330 MRTT is a much more advanced aircraft the same role can be efficiently done with the Midas ( ignoring the multirole capability of the A330)...

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 Dec 2009 18:44

chetak wrote:
The HAL flight school operates Schweizer 300C and Schweizer 330SP.
Chetak and ALH.

No Hughes saar

... Got confused between the schweizer300c and the hughes 300 (currently sirkoski 300)...

.. Thanks for the clarification.. And also no sir-ing required...

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 23 Dec 2009 17:56

IAF to induct more than 150 Sukhois

The Indian Air Force (IAF) will soon induct more than 150 Sukhoi Su-30 MKI combat jets and 80 Mi-17-1V medium-lift helicopters as part of a massive drive to boost its capabilities, a top military commander said on Wednesday.

http://sify.com/news/IAF-to-induct-more ... aaabe.html

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 Dec 2009 21:57

^^^ is this part of the 230 odd birds ordered???

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 23 Dec 2009 22:22

Has to be. Our penny pinching style of procurement will never permit thinking like a regional power!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Dec 2009 00:19

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 375024.cms

Of the total 175 who graduated today, 105 cadets were trained as pilots, 12 were trained as navigators and 58 were given administration, Air Traffic Control, Accounts and other branches. Air marshal V R Iyer was also present during the function.

Which course is this?

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 25 Dec 2009 05:25

Aditya G wrote:Which course is this?

It was a mix of the flying and the administration branch. They may have graduated on the same day, but are from different courses.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 25 Dec 2009 06:00

More youths joining IAF, says Antony
http://www.assamtribune.com/scripts/det ... c2509/at07
PS: Repost elsewhere, if not right thread, thanks.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Dec 2009 01:07

LCH test flight anytime soon I hope ? they said that it would be flown around 26-27th Dec..weather is obviously not an issue in Bangalore, so I really hope that they get it up soon. would end the year on a good note for us jingos.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 27 Dec 2009 09:39

same feelings here too... Last night around 2200 hrs there were sounds of engines being run on the HAL tarmac, couldn't see what aircraft it was but it sure as hell didn't land or take off.. so i am hoping they were taxiing tests and all that..

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Dec 2009 11:25

Chimney Hill residents lose battle for access

The harrowing time for the residents of Chimney Hill began after losing the legal battle against the IAF, which has radar installed there. The IAF wanted to prevent civilian movement in a radius of at least 500 metres from its radar station owing to threat perception.

A road connecting the residential locality on Chimney Hill had been an eye-sore for the IAF, because it was passing too close from the radar station. It was the only road to connect the residential locality with rest of the City. Soon after legal victory, the IAF started barricading its area including the road. It also prohibited vehicular movement on this stretch.

Now the IAF has instructed the residents not to stray into its territory from Jan 1. “ We have no other alternative road connecting to the City,” lamented Srikanth, a resident..
He added that the land where they constructed their houses is a converted one and the BDA has given a no objection certificate to the residential layout and the local panchayat has approved.

Amazing that such a big colony was allowed to come up so close to a major radar station.

kit · Post by **kit** » 28 Dec 2009 11:59

Cain Marko wrote:
parshuram wrote:Is This thing permissible i mean MOF is just concerned about the price do they actually now that how and where A 330 is superior and hidden costs Russians put across you in terms of delays and all ..
Can you elaborate on the "hidden costs" with the russians? WHile at it could you also let us know if and how mil hardware from other countries are not ever delayed etc?

I am really surprised that re bid is even thought of . IA F and MOD should have the selection to their discretion to chose the best . Few more dollars are no bigger then human life and national security
"few more dollars" could very well be to the tunes of 100s of millions. After all, the millions who could use basic services in the country (including food and sustenance) are human too or are they expendable? The MOF, and for that matter the GOI has to balance a lot of things, and for most nations, esp. India, hardware is not easy to buy irrespective of how badly the IAF "wants" it. Perhaps the IL-76 meets the need while the 330 meets the want according to the MOF. After all, the VVS manages with the Candid despite the vast reaches it has to deal with.

Lets just be patient and see where the wind blows shall we?

CM.

Would we rather do something that is sufficient or something more efficient ? If lives are at stake or it is of something that would given proven strategic advantage then yes.But if the cost benefit ratio is not so good ,ie, <2:1 , the sufficient thing is the more appropriate choice. (But again if you are filthy rich ...

)

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Dec 2009 15:16

Some welcome (old) news on India's own PGM development. Before reading this the only reference i had was an India Daily report

But the acquisition of french AASM is still a surprise to me.

http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Air ... India.html

Indian sources indicate that the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), part of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), is developing a new guided stand-off weapon, known as the 'ER-PGM' (Enhanced Range Precision-Guided Weapon). The ER-PGM initiative is being driven by an Indian Air Force (IAF) requirement for long-range weapons to equip its Sukhoi Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000H and other combat aircraft. The ER-PGM is believed to be a precision navigation and range-extension kit that can be fitted to existing general purpose 'dumb' bombs. Several such systems already exist and it is not at all clear if India's ER-PGM programme is an entirely indigenous effort. Separate to the ER-PGM, India is acquiring other stand-off precision guided munitions such as the SAGEM AASM and the Crystal Maze (a derivative of the Rafael Popeye missile).

http://www.mail-archive.com/ppiindia@ya ... 28447.html

Monday, 5, September, 2005 (01, Sha`ban, 1426)

India Developing Precision Bomb
Shahid Raza Burney, Arab News

PUNE, India, 5 September 2005 - Keeping pace with the
development of missile technology by its archrival Pakistan, India's Armament
Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) in Pune is developing a
450-kilograms long-range precision-guided (ER-PGM) bomb packed with high energy
explosives. After being released by an aircraft, the bomb can glide up to 100
km before hitting its target with pinpoint accuracy.

Although Pakistan has bought a similar bomb from South
Africa, Indian scientists are giving final touches to a better indigenous
version.

The new bomb is designed to have a "tail" equipped with
global positioning system-cum-inertial navigation system (GPS-INS) coupled with
guidance and a "glide kit" (a pair of retractable wings) to ferry the bomb for
up to 100 km before hitting its target with an error margin of not more than 3
to 4 meters.

A.S. Rajagopal, director of ARDE, said at a news conference
here on Saturday that scientists at the institute were working on the bomb, but
it would take some time before actual tests were carried out. Refusing to give
any time frame for the development of the bomb, ARDE officials said a
functional model could be ready by the end of next year, although the system
configuration was complete.

Asked how the bomb compared with the one in Pakistan's
possession, an ARDE official said the Indian version would be fitted with tail
and retractable wings to give it gliding and navigational functions. Once the
bomb is released from the aircraft, the wings will unfold and the bomb will act
like a high-speed un-powered glider. Besides, the bomb will be guided by a
GPS-INS program controlling its tail unit. After traveling the required
distance, the bomb strikes its target with great accuracy.

Elaborating on the advantages of the bomb, the official said
the long-range bomb would be capable of delivering the payload (explosives) to
the designated target with minimal risk to the carrier aircraft. The bomb also
carries an element of surprise as it cannot be easily detected by the enemy.
The precision GPS-INS guidance systems, the official said, also helps to
maintain minimum collateral damage.

The official said the cost of a single unit would be much
more than a conventional bomb, but its accuracy made it cost effective as the
target need not be carpet bombed with a barrage of convention bombs. The bomb
is designed exclusively for use by the air force but it can later be adapted
into a barrel-launched army and navy version also, he said.

The ARDE is also developing a bunker buster which will first
penetrate a hard layer of concrete and then explode to destroy bunkers and
underground targets. Maintaining the traditional secrecy of the test date of
the bunker buster bomb, ARDE officials said it would take "some time".

Commenting on the rapid development of weapons programs by
India, defense analysts said Indian scientists had developed several
technologically advanced weapons, missiles and ammunitions in recent years,
which may surprise not only its neighbors but also the West.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2009 18:11

sum wrote:
Chimney Hill residents lose battle for accessHe added that the land where they constructed their houses is a converted one and the BDA has given a no objection certificate to the residential layout and the local panchayat has approved.
Amazing that such a big colony was allowed to come up so close to a major radar station.

I have highlighted the reason why illegal constructions can come up anywhere in Bangalore. If you find that someone has sold land on either side of the airstrip at Yelahanka - it will be the same reason.

Too many suckers with money and crooks in local government