Rahul M wrote:I'm personally not sure of the long term implications of gujral doctrine but his look east policy was a long-overdue course correction in India's foreign policy.
but we are steadily going OT here.may I'll move these to the foreign policy thread.
Paul wrote:Thanks, On this forum I hold the IP for this.I.K. Gujral with his Gujral Doctrine unleashed the unravelling of TSP. Its going to be years later that his contribution will be properly evaluated.
My post on 24 sept, 2008.
The inability of this forum to understand and appreciate Inder Gujral and Jaswant Singh's brilliant and unconventional tactics show it's intellectual limitations.My hunch is future generations will look at the implementation of Gujral Doctrine (not 9/11) as the catalyst which caused Pakistan to unravel. The cross-LOC trade and traffic taking place now which is attributed to JN Dixit is actually a continuation of this doctrine....as are our future efforts to get more transit points in Kokhrapar-Munnabao in Rajasthan or the ferry beween Karachi and Mumbai.
Gujral doctrine was ridiculed a lot when during it's inception, but in it's other versions it has gained acceptance across the spectrum.
History will probably judge IK Gujral a lot favorably than BRF
The liberal/leftist RAPES form the outermost core of the onion. They have already opened lines of communication with their counterparts across the border from the days when IKGujral was the PM. India needs to start working through it’s RAPES to influence the events in Pakistan to ensure there we have our own surrogates when the Radcliff line starts getting softer. This could take anywhere between 3 – 10 years at the most.
The other segments that India could work with are:
1. The pakjabi politicos like the PML-N would be the next group to work on as they are part of Pakistani civil society. They would not averse to breaking away from the strangle hold of the Army/Allah combo.
2. The PPP could be even easier as they have their base in the Sindh and are percived as the party of the masses. The liberal RAPES see this party as the great hope to usher in democracy in Pakistan
3. MQM will be even more willing to be an Indian surrogate as Althaf Hussain has already gone on record regretting partition. They are keen to rejoin thir IM brothers.
4. The PA army and Pakiban will be the hardest nuts to crack. Military option for them onlee. Other segments need to be softened through diplomatic, cultural, and economic incentives.
The snowball will get bigger and gather speed as it starts rolling downhill. Let India not be caught napping as happened with the Berlin wall collapse. When TSP failing health gethers speed, not even the combined efforts Unkil, Saudi, or PRC can be of much use.
Point is:
A strategy similar to the used being used by the west wherin left wing thought( naxalism/marxism) is being used to wean Indic civilization away from it’s roots can be crafted to wean Pakistan away from the disease that we know all about.
To understand these so called intellectualsI was referring to Najam Sethi, Khaled Ahmed, Tariq Ali etc, we need to go back to the days of Kishen Chander. Both Pakjabi and Punjabi marxists are displaying eerily similar thought processes. Punjabi marxists should be encouraged to help their pakjabi marxist brethren gain more strength as they will be our surrogates in taking on the pakiban and their taliban masters.
Johann, the same analogy was precisely in my mind. This is why the USSR elites erected the Iron curtain and held families of soviet citizens hostage when their family members were visiting the west.
The Gujral doctrine has initiated the breakup of the consenus between pakistani civil society, the military, and the clergy about India being the main enemy and this in the future will help in peeling of the onion. Zardari cannot expect to liberlize the visa process and simultaneiously have the military identify India as the chief adversary. Pigs will fly before this shift in Pakistani thinking takes place.
Remember reading some time ago - The starting point is in theSAARC charter wherein it is specified that "eminent citizens" do not need a visa to visit other SAARC countries. This was dicovered accidentally in the 90s by a bright spark in MEA and the rest is history.
Rest assured the Indic mind will keep finding a way to circumvent the bet efforts of her enemies and short sighted wellwishers to undercut it’s interests.
What is up with this lady? Tantrum after tantrum since last yearA director of Research and Analysis Wing has been arrested by police here after she allegedly trespassed into the residence of one of her colleagues and damaged his car and window-panes.
Nisha Priya Bhatia, under suspension now, was arrested at her Sector 18 residence after a case under Section 451 (trespassing), 427 (mischief causing damage to property), 323 (voluntarily causing hurt) and 268 (public nuisance) of IPC was registered.
According to the Station House Officer of Section 16 police station, Inderjit Singh, a complaint had been received from RAW Director (Training) alleging that Bhatia had been pressing his door bell in the dead of night besides throwing flower pots, breaking window panes and smashing the wind screen of his car.
She was arrested and produced before a court here which remanded her to 14 days’judicial custody.
Yup...was on a Burkha show on NDTV discussing India's option a few days after 26/11... Mishra-ji went ballistic at Tavleen Singh for suggesting that all our covert ops were wound up in Pak.Brajesh Mishra, in a moment of "furious" candour, once hotly contested this fact (that we do not anymore have covert capabilities agaionst Pak) on a TV programme...He stopped saying anything more than that, but really it is highly unlikely that India's establishment would "turn around" on something as fundamental so quickly..
Now,these Indian fishing boats and fishermen are threat to national security and show that how much poreous is the Indian Maritime borders."As per records in Navy, 35 Indian fishing boats with 200 fishermen have been apprehended by the Pakistani Navy,"
Kerala piggybacked on Bangalore copsExpress News Service
First Published : 10 Dec 2009 11:13:34 AM IST
Last Updated : 10 Dec 2009 12:37:45 PM IST
THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The delay in transmitting intelligence input from the Centre to the State in not a new issue. A recent remark by Home Minister Kodiyeri Balakrishnan in this regard has kicked up a row.
However, it is a fact that Kodiyeri had stressed the need for strengthening the intelligence sharing mechanism more than once, the latest of which was at a meeting of Chief Ministers and Home Ministers convened by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh earlier this year.
"There has to be considerable degree of inter-state cooperation in matters relating to intelligence and investigation with the concerned state police forces. There has to be regional coordination, instantaneous exchange of information and immediate verification of internal security matters having inter-state ramifications,’’ the Home Minister said in his speech at the meting.
In the case of the arrest of Thadiyantavide Nazeer, the Home Minister says that the state police received a formal information about the arrest from the Union Home Ministry only after media reports came in. It was the state police which had tipped off the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) about the presence of Nazeer in Bangladesh and had even provided his mobile phone number earlier in April.
The Home Minister had stressed the need for quick sharing of intelligence input at several forums at the national level, said sources close to the Minister.
Highly placed sources in the Police Department also shares a similar opinion. ``In many cases, the intelligence inputs from the Centre are not specific, but only general in nature,’’ says police sources.
With a view to strengthening the intelligence-sharing mechanism, several steps are being initiated, including the formation of a common portal among the southern states that was mooted at a conference of senior police officers held here recently.
The portal has already been set up and training is being provided to police personnel from various states in Bangalore. Moreover, the Home Department is also working on various proposals for strengthening the intelligence gathering mechanism with Central assistance, said sources.
Ajay Kanth
First Published : 10 Dec 2009 01:41:00 AM IST
Last Updated : 10 Dec 2009 08:38:16 AM IST
KOCHI: The State Home Department finds itself in an unenviable situation with some senior police officials stating that the Kerala Police have done “nothing solid” to trace LeT operative Thadiyantavide Nazeer and that it was the Bangalore police that conducted exhaustive investigation and alerted the Centre about his presence in Bangladesh.
Highly placed police sources said the investigation into Nazeer’s activities was in a ‘frozen condition’ with no higher-ups showing interest in it even after the Special Investigation Team unearthing clear leads in the case.
“After the serial blasts in Bangalore, it was the Bangalore police that traced Nazeer to Bangladesh and provided vital information to Research and Analysis Wing on his passport and whereabouts in Bangladesh,” they said.
When contacted, Bangalore Joint Commissioner of Police (Crime) Alok Kumar said: “We do not want to comment on any topic related to Nazeer and the investigation at this juncture. Any controversy will adversely affect the probe.” Meanwhile, the sources said, the Kerala Police may have to wait for a month or so to get Nazeer in custody. “The Bangalore police have registered 10 cases against him. They need minimum 20 to 30 days to complete the interrogation. And they are likely to seek an extension of his custody,” they said.
The Kerala Police have submitted the court order, seeking Nazeer’s custody, to the Bangalore police. “We believe we’ll have to wait a little longer.
We will approach the Bangalore polce again once Nazeer is handed over to the Central Prison there,” the sources added.
IIRC, Nazeer and co should never be given to Kerala Police for even one day since it will only be a R&R for Nazeer ( just like Hafiz Sayeed is "arrested" by Pak). If these scum are handed over to Kerala, they will surely go the Madhani way and enjoy a happy retired life there.KOCHI: The State Home Department finds itself in an unenviable situation with some senior police officials stating that the Kerala Police have done “nothing solid” to trace LeT operative Thadiyantavide Nazeer and that it was the Bangalore police that conducted exhaustive investigation and alerted the Centre about his presence in Bangladesh.
The police had picked up Nazeer twice, but then he "mysteriously" escaped. Local Malayalam dailies report that this had even caused anger in the lower rung of policemen, as it is believed that Thadiyan was released due to pressure from higher ups. Unless, this "catch-put a tag-release" was a kind of intelligence operation to have Thadiyan permenantly tracked.sum wrote:IIRC, Nazeer and co should never be given to Kerala Police for even one day since it will only be a R&R for Nazeer ( just like Hafiz Sayeed is "arrested" by Pak).
Exactly. The current ruling ministry (LDF), especially many of its high level leaders have shared the dias with a suspected anti-nationals like Mahdani, and have mollycoddled with him during the last elections. Thadiyan's close company with Mahdani family is getting revealed day by day. That being the case, the current Kerala Govt. and its agencies cannot be taken into confidence.If these scum are handed over to Kerala, they will surely go the Madhani way and enjoy a happy retired life there.
This has already been posted by someone in this thread earlier...Prabu wrote:Well, here is the scoope news from THE WEEK, dt Dec 13, 2009. I have read the cover story from the hard copy. Here are the online links, but I am not sure if it is full story. Some one who has net access to THE WEEK , please post the full story. This shows us atleast as far as Nepal is concerned , we have not compromised on RAW's external covert capabilities !
Very Interesting read ! (I hope it s not posted earlier !)
By Iftikhar Gilani
NEW DELHI: An Indian judicial tribunal on Saturday came to the rescue of a top Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) agent for his alleged involvement with a suspected Chinese female spy while being posted in China during 2007-08.
Despite holding the officer in question, MM Sharma, the two-member Central Administrative Tribunal (CAT), headed by vice-chairman Justice M Ramachandran, asked the government to review the penalty of denial of pension or even compassionate allowance.
The tribunal told the government to keep in mind that “a former officer of the Indian government should not have to bear a begging bowl for his livelihood”, pointing out that the officer may have a family to support and his advanced age may bring him financial responsibilities. It directed the government to communicate its decision to the officer within four months.
It pointed out that Sharma had been dismissed just two years before his retirement, with no adverse reports being filed against him in his service records.
The government counsel alleged that the officer had given access of his computer to a Chinese woman, enabling her to read secret documents.
“By permitting free hand to a person who held a position in the Communist Party of China to peruse the documents without any restraint was shocking,” the tribunal noted, while agreeing with the government counsel.
Sharma, who was posted with the Indian mission in China on July 2, 2007, was recalled in May, 2008 and put under suspension on September 5, 2008. He was subsequently dismissed on December 22 last year.
WTF is this?The tribunal told the government to keep in mind that “a former officer of the Indian government should not have to bear a begging bowl for his livelihood”, pointing out that the officer may have a family to support and his advanced age may bring him financial responsibilities. It directed the government to communicate its decision to the officer within four months.
The charge against him clearly states that he even gave access to his official comp to the "prostitute" (who must be a Chinese operative). This makes it even worse and the order of the CAT(that he is old man and doesn't deserve to beg for a livingM M Sharma, a Director of Science & Technology Division of RAW was videotaped by the Chinese intelligence officials while having sex with a prostitute in Beijing where he was posted in the Indian Mission. He was declared Persona Non Grata and sent to India. No disciplinary or criminal action has been taken against him so far.
) even more ludicrous.Errr, doesnt ever country do so (under cover of political counselor etc)? There will be few NOC operatives also but that doesn't mean few with diplomatic cover wont exist in embassies.It is strange that RAW still uses official embassy operatives.
Well I heard recently from well informed sources and also from some people who posted here that RAW doesn't use agents in embassies in Pakistan. I would imagine they would have the same practice in China, Bangladesh etc as well. And usually the officers who have official diplomatic cover are just paper pushers who don't have access to Top Secret or Secret information that can be leaked because they are the ones who are usually under heavy surveillance by foreign intelligence agencies.sum wrote:Errr, doesnt ever country do so (under cover of political counselor etc)? There will be few NOC operatives also but that doesn't mean few with diplomatic cover wont exist in embassies.It is strange that RAW still uses official embassy operatives.
IIRC, Paki behavior is not seen in other countries and they do not manhandle diplomatic operatives like in Pak.Well I heard recently from well informed sources and also from some people who posted here that RAW doesn't use agents in embassies in Pakistan. I would imagine they would have the same practice in China, Bangladesh etc as well. And usually the officers who have official diplomatic cover are just paper pushers who don't have access to Top Secret or Secret information that can be leaked because they are the ones who are usually under heavy surveillance by foreign intelligence agencies.
M P Prashanth
First Published : 13 Dec 2009 01:50:00 AM IST
Last Updated : 13 Dec 2009 08:50:42 AM IST
KOZHIKODE: Home Minister Kodiyeri Balakrishnan’s claim that the state government had informed the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) about the activities of Lashkar-e-Toiba operative Thadiyantavide Nazeer in Bangladesh is inconsequential as the central agency already had the details.
In his article in Deshabhimani, Kodiyeri said the State Special Branch DIG wrote a letter to RAW on April 17, 2009, informing the intelligence agency that Nazeer and Shafaz had escaped to Bangladesh.
The Minister said the phone number used by Nazeer in Bangladesh was also handed over to RAW. But the fact is that RAW had details of the LeT terrorists’ movements well before that. RAW agents had picked up Sarfaraz Nawaz, another accused in the case, from Oman in February 2009 in a secret operation.
He was brought to Bangalore on a special flight from Oman.
Nawaz gave the interrogators all the details of Nazeer’s escape to Bangladesh. He told RAW that LeT leader Wali had told Nazeer to flee to Bangladesh after news of the killing of four Malayalis in Kashmir appeared in the newspapers.
After leaving Kerala Nazeer travelled all over the country.
He contacted Nawaz by phone several times from Maharashtra in November 2009 (from 0251 2200885 on September 2, 022 69809058 on September 3 and 9987956953 on September 14 and 16).
The escape to Bangladesh was arranged by a person called Salim on Wali’s instructions.
One Shaidul was entrusted with receiving Nazeer and Shafaz in Kolkata from where the duo crossed the border and reached Dhaka.
Nawaz contacted Nazeer after he reached Dhaka and was told by Nazeer that he was “going in the right direction to achieve the objective”.
RAW had all these details about Nazeer’s movements in March itself and Express had reported these pieces of information in the same month.
Therefore there was no need for the central agency to be ‘enlightened’ by the Kerala police on April 17.
Al-Qaeda operative Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who allegedly had tactical control of the September 11, 2001 attacks in the United States, made at least one visit to India in 1996, documents show.
But, The Hindu has found, India’s intelligence services made no effort to determine when he came, what travel documents he used, where he stayed and with whom he met with.
The Union Home Ministry has blamed lax visa procedures for the clandestine reconnaissance by Pakistani-American jihadist David Headley prior to the November 2008 Lashkar-e-Taiba Mumbai terror attacks. But the poor investigative follow-up of Mohammed’s visit suggests there are serious systemic gaps in the country’s internal security.Later, in the now-declassified testimony given to the Combatant Status Review Tribunal at Guantanamo Bay on March 10, 2007, Mohammed admitted he was “responsible for surveying and financing the destruction of the Israeli embassy in India, Azerbaijan, the Philippines and Indonesia.”
In Malaysia, Mohammed met with Jemaah Islamiyyah chief Riduaan Islamuddin, forging an alliance that provided the foundation for several terrorist attacks across East Asia and the west. And in the Philippines, he set up “Operation Bojinka,” a plot to blow up 12 airliners carrying passengers from Asia to the U.S.
But Indian investigators failed to explore evidence that corroborates Mohammed’s claims that al-Qaeda was engaged in targeting India prior to the September 11 attacks.
Back in August 2001, the Delhi Police filed charges against Sudan national Abdul Raouf Hawas for conspiring to blow up the U.S. embassy in New Delhi. Hawas, the police claimed, was linked to al-Qaeda operative Muhammed Omar al-Harazi, also known as Abdul Rehman al-Safani.
Pakistani Harkat-ul-Jihad-e-Islami operative Qamar Mohammad Ayub, held by the Jammu and Kashmir Police in December, 2001, was also alleged to have been working to facilitate an al-Qaeda attack on the Israeli mission in New Delhi.
Many jihadist leaders in the past have escaped scrutiny by Indian immigration and internal security authorities.
For example, Jaish-e-Mohammad leader Mohammad Masood Azhar arrived in New Delhi from Dhaka, using an illegally-obtained Portuguese passport, on January 29, 1994. “The duty officer at the Indira Gandhi airport,” he later told interrogators, “commented that I did not look Portuguese. However, when I told him I was Gujarati by birth, he did not hesitate to stamp my passport.”
Lack of surveillance meant that no credible prosecution could be mounted against the jihadist leader, who was eventually released in a hostages-for-prisoners swap after the hijacking of an Indian Airlines jet in 1999.
Lashkar-e-Taiba financier Mahmoud Mohammad Ahmed Bahaziq, a Saudi Arabia national, later sanctioned by the United Nations Security Council, also travelled in and out of India until at least 1999. He is known to have met with Lashkar clandestine operative Mohammad Ishtiq at the President Hotel in Mumbai. Precisely how Bahaziq obtained an Indian visa remains unknown.
Just thought I'd add the fact that Stasi officials in the former East Germany routinely engaged in physical encounters of the aggressive kind with diplomats from NATO countries. Having read a book called BRIXMIS by Tony Geraghty I can confirm that British and American officials operating under full diplomatic cover in East Germany were routinely subject to "traffic accidents", illegal detention, threat of use of force, psychological operations mounted against wives and kids, etc.Rahul M wrote:brando, TSP is an exception rather than the rule. ISI used to manhandle/torture the semi-official intel operatives which no other country does. even during the worst periods of cold war US and FSU maintained resident intel operatives at the embassies. clearly, such gentlemanly ROE can't be expected from a depraved country like TSP.
sum wrote:
2. Why on Earth would the British openly talk to a known terrorist within a INDIAN jail when everything they say can be recorded by our agencies? Why did we even allow it?
The blueprint unveiled today included setting up by 2010 end a National Counter Terrorism Centre (NCTC) whose objectives will be to prevent a terrorist attack, containing such a strike if one takes place and responding to a terrorist attack by inflicting pain upon the perpetrators.
The Central Government is implementing an ambitious scheme called “Crime and Criminal Tracking Network System (CCTNS).” The goals of the system are to facilitate collection, storage, retrieval, analysis, transfer and sharing of data and information at the police station and between the police station and the State Headquarters and the Central Police Organisations.
In order to remedy the deficiency, the Central Government has decided to set up NATGRID. Under NATGRID, 21 sets of databases will be networked to achieve quick, seamless and secure access to desired information for intelligence/enforcement agencies. This project is likely to be completed in 18 – 24 months from now.
NCTC’s mandate should be to respond to violence unleashed by any group – be it an insurgent group in the North East or the CPI (Maoist) in the heartland of India or any group of religious fanatics anywhere in India acting on their own or in concert with terrorists outside India. NCTC would therefore have to perform functions relating to intelligence, investigation and operations. All intelligence agencies would therefore have to be represented in the NCTC. Consequently, in my proposal, MAC would be subsumed in the NCTC. Actually, MAC with expanded authority will be at the core of the new organisation and will transform itself into NCTC. The functions that will be added to the current functions of MAC are investigation and operations. As far as investigation is concerned, Government has set up the National Investigation Agency, and that agency would have to be brought under the overall control of NCTC. The last function – operations – would of course be the most sensitive and difficult part to create and bring under the NCTC. But I am clear in my mind that, without ‘operations’, NCTC and the security architecture that is needed will be incomplete. It is the proposed ‘operations’ wing of the NCTC that will give an edge – now absent – to our plans to counter terrorism.
Some agencies would naturally have to be brought under NCTC and what come to my mind readily are NIA, NTRO, JIC, NCRB and the NSG. The positioning of R&AW, ARC and CBI would have to be re-examined and a way would have to be found to place them under the oversight of NCTC to the extent that they deal with terrorism. The intelligence agencies of the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Finance would, of course, continue to remain under the respective Ministry, but their representatives would have to be deputed mandatorily to the NCTC. NATGRID would obviously come under NCTC. So also, CCTNS would have to be supervised by the NCTC.
IIRC, NSG already performs "sort of covert" ops in J&K where they are paradropped into forests to hunt pigs. So, that part shouldnt be so tough. ( IMHO, of course)Will NCTC now be tasked with sending covert operatives outside the borders? NSG is a specialised SWAT team, it simply cannot be everywhere and its not even their training/mandate....
Well if we go by what Mr. Chidambram has said about NCTC then I think it includes covert operations. These covert Operatives may not necessarily be NSG commandos. They might be drawn from different agencies & then trained specifically for covert operations.Will NCTC now be tasked with sending covert operatives outside the borders? NSG is a specialised SWAT team, it simply cannot be everywhere and its not even their training/mandate....
Inflicting pain upon the perpetrators might be a full declaration of war like US did in case of Iraq or covert operations like Israelis did in retaliation for Munich.National Counter Terrorism Centre (NCTC) whose objectives will be to prevent a terrorist attack, containing such a strike if one takes place and responding to a terrorist attack by inflicting pain upon the perpetrators.
Never heard of that..I know NSG was called in for a few hostage rescue situations in J&K, but paradropped into forests? Have even the Army paras ever been "para dropped" in J&K? IMHO the terrain wont be favourable for paradrops there..sum wrote: IIRC, NSG already performs "sort of covert" ops in J&K where they are paradropped into forests to hunt pigs. So, that part shouldnt be so tough. ( IMHO, of course)
Agreed sir. Actually what I meant was that phrase "inflicting pain" could mean declaring war under PM's authorisation or covert ops under the authorisation of MoH (if RAW comes under MoH)Sunny, declaring war is the President's prerogative, in effect in India the PM's...No arm of the govt has the authority to do that..
