Strategic leadership for the future of India - II

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 12 Nov 2009 19:56

Pulikesi:

If I read your line of argument right, it is that India has failed in developing "thought leadership" comparable to what existed thousands of years ago. The evidence is that Harvard, Stanford etc have done so as examples, but there is no comparable entity in India.

Also, that the "scientific coolie" generation has achieved nothing that is notable.

OK, here is my counter to that:

1. Inside one generation (around 40 years) from 1947, India changed from a begging bowl to a food exporter, even as population more than doubled.

2. Inside one generation, a bullock cart economy generated nuclear and space technology that put India among the top 10 nations in those fields, definitely.

3. These were done without the help of major national cataclysms. THAT was thought leadership.

"Leadership" implies willingness to recognize NEW directions and ways of doing things and thinking about them. NOT the ability to imitate and parrot Harvard or Stanford or anyone else. So I would seriously question your definition of the problem, and whether you are not exemplifying what you describe as "scientific cooliness".

Someone also mentions a few western Nobel Prize winners as "thought leaders". So that is a criterion? That few Indians have won the Nobel Prize? Unlike POTUS Obama for his Potential?

India has NO lack of corrupt organizations like the Nobel Prize Committee. India DOES have a lack of people who recognize that going along the "Road less traveled" and staying out of the news while doing so, is a far better definition of "thought leadership".

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 12 Nov 2009 22:27

enqyoob wrote:Pulikesi:

If I read your line of argument right, it is that India has failed in developing "thought leadership" comparable to what existed thousands of years ago. The evidence is that Harvard, Stanford etc have done so as examples, but there is no comparable entity in India.

Oh Boy! if you boil down my sentences into its bare bones it may end with what you have up there...
How can I compare the 1000s or years old thought leadership with lack of modern Western Institutions?
Seems a bit silly if you bare bone it doesn't it?
Would it be better if I asked where is Nalanda and Takshashila or modern India?

enqyoob wrote: Also, that the "scientific coolie" generation has achieved nothing that is notable.

OK, here is my counter to that:

1. Inside one generation (around 40 years) from 1947, India changed from a begging bowl to a food exporter, even as population more than doubled.

Right the Rockefeller foundation and Normal Borlang had nothing to do with it.
Perhaps, folks in India at that time were still grappling with the red book and not heard of Malthus yet.

Note the recent research on why the Green Revolution may risk failure in India.

enqyoob wrote: 2. Inside one generation, a bullock cart economy generated nuclear and space technology that put India among the top 10 nations in those fields, definitely.

I'd argue this had more to do with Nehru's foresight, even if the SCs implemented it.
However, secular India's thought leadership lies in an ash heap called the Non-Aligned movement.
Even Bangladesh does not buy it!

enqyoob wrote: 3. These were done without the help of major national cataclysms. THAT was thought leadership.

"Leadership" implies willingness to recognize NEW directions and ways of doing things and thinking about them. NOT the ability to imitate and parrot Harvard or Stanford or anyone else. So I would seriously question your definition of the problem, and whether you are not exemplifying what you describe as "scientific cooliness".

Where did I ask us to parrot Stanford, Harvard, etc. All I hear is bombast of the last 60 years.
A large swath of Asia if not Europe itself benefited from the thought leadership of what was Bharatvarsha - are you telling me we are back to where this civilization was and what it is capable of already?

For the Indian nation-state to hold, the civilizational thought leadership has to be resurrected -
We have a long way to go, but you are welcome to live on 60 years of achievement.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Nov 2009 22:39

a quote appeared at the top of my gmail.
posting FWIW as I've not followed the discussion.

In politics it is necessary either to betray one's country or the electorate. I prefer to betray the electorate.
Charles de Gaulle

amritk · Post by **amritk** » 12 Nov 2009 23:35

ramana wrote:Would creating a portal for Indian ex-servicemen and their families and interested people be a useful work?

We have so many web savvy experts here on BRF who can be involved in this task.

Great idea. Why not make it a wiki? That way it will have a large number of contributors and will have broad acceptability.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 13 Nov 2009 08:16

Pulikesi:

Your thesis seems to have got a bit into disarray. So per your argument, the Indian agricultural revolution was all the doing of the Rockefeller Foundation and Dr. Borlaug. Why hasn't this made Africa as rich as India then? Why is there so much famine in Somalia and Sudan and Ethopia?

The other rather petulant position in your post is that I am somehow "preferring to live on the past 60 years" whereas you would like to dismiss any achievements of those 60 years, in order to prove that there has been no thought leadership. Of course, one can "prove" the absence of anything by simply ignoring it.

I could say, by similar logic:

Why has the USA never managed to achieve any prosperity?

and if you tell me that there is a history of 230 years of prosperity, I would retort:

you may prefer to live in the past 230 years!

So, if I read your present position:
1. It does not count that India managed to transform from chronic famine basket case to net food exporter inside 40 years. That was all Rockefeller Foundation and Norman Borlaug.

2. It does not count that India managed to rise from a bullock cart economy to become a spacefaring power with a strong nuclear capability - that just one man's vision (JN's, but he wasn't a "thought leader")

3. 60 years of managing to hold an incredibly diverse nation together as a democracy, and steadily moving forward towards becoming a respected quasi-superpower, does not count as good thinking and planning, because we don't want to live in the past 60 years.

4. We should not parrot Harvard and Stanford, but we should instead

that Nalanda and Takshashila are not any more the world's leading universities.

Hello? What is the remaining takleef pls?

So if India had developed "thought leaders" we should have instead have had a few civil wars, and then had a few guys write

novels on the horrors of these wars, like the gay cat-lover Ernest Hemingway. Maybe Ernestoswamy Hem Singh Way?

For Whom The Bull Bellows

?

In 1984, right after the assasination of Indira Gandhi, the resident dummy Editor of the Atlanta Fishwrap, one Robert Ackerman, wrote a long column titled:

If it took an Indira to rule it, India is no democracy

The Editor's theme was that India was about to crumble - a theme that reflected the Fishwrap's oft-expressed PRC-funded dreams.

My evil 4th cousin thrice removed, well.... wrote a response that the Fishwrap, amazingly, published. Sort of ripped the Editor a few new musharrafs. 25 years later, it turns out that my 4th cousin was right, and Ackerman was just an idiot.

But the fact is that it is a miracle that India has held together. A far better miracle that there has actually been a gradual upward movement.

And for all this, Indians deserve no credit? A generation of "scientific coolies"? As opposed to Thought Leaders a.ka. "Scientifically illiterate junkies"? "Superstitious holies"? "Pompous drunks"? (What else were Hemingway, Thoreau, Cervantes, Lenin, or Marx?) Or "educated mass murderers"? What else was the Sorbonne-PhD Pol Pot? Does Thought Leadership get any more exclusive than Le Docteur de la Sorbonne?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Nov 2009 09:19

We dont even have a football stadium

huh ! send him to kolkata. yuva bharati krirangan once hosted a mohun bagan - east bengal football match that had 1,35,000 spectators ! beat that !

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 13 Nov 2009 10:23

enqyoob wrote: Hello? What is the remaining takleef pls?

Me what worry?

As my arguments with you before - you rarely have a position, but happily work at trying
to tear down anyone else who does - unless they agree with you.
And what is that you have proposed other than status quo that I have to agree to?
All I want is change we can believe in...

1. I guess you have not read much about why India's green revolution seemed to work
and why there is a great danger in it regressing. But I guess its ok to be proud and ignorant.
Please do not defame the work efforts of folks like Norman who helped more than just India.

2. Bullock cart economy to spacefaring nation - but we are pissed off at technology denial
and we never got anything from anyone else to achieve this? We are pindigenous only!
What is this civilization board game? Is this the pnly measure for what a civilization can achieve?

3. Respected quasi-power -

yes that is good enough for us.
Just like our current ODI position. Heck even Bangladesh does not respect India!

4. So Harvard, Stanford, etc. are useless and worrying about not having Nalanda and Takshashila or such fine institutions is not an issue. What is your point really?
We can keep producing secular Scientific Coolies who have no imagination -
no, why change that? It has done us so well that we are electing brilliant leaders who deliver.
Perhaps proof that we don't need such useless conversations?
What me worry about what civilization - oh wait, this is Indian Civilization -
never mind the very word India, Hindu etc. are pindegious terms.
Rats! I missed it we are the secular ONE! Neo, wake up!

5. Where did civil wars come into this? I never went there - so quit these digressions.
This has nothing to do with my arguments

6. You rambled among other things: "Does Thought Leadership get any more exclusive than Le Docteur de la Sorbonne?" Since you seem to fancy yourself a thought leader and all is well with India. Why worry about folks like me who think we can do better... Rest assured enqyoob there is no reason to clash your ego with mine.
You chose status quo, why get pissed off that I did not?

Notice what you have done on this thread. I had an abstract thought. You made concrete
statements (which I did not bring in but to illustrate a point) and now
we are arguing specifics that has nothing to do in my mind with the abstract thought.
This is a parallel argument that is futile.

If India in its current incarnation is so great - we both have nothing to worry about.
However, I believe truth to be otherwise, please allow me to worry about it loud here!

You don't perhaps like my worrying and way of thinking, that is your problem not mine.
Since you think we have nothing to worry about India, why worry about what I worry about India?

Ipso facto - what is your takaleef? It must be me!
Dieu (enqyoob) est grand, je suis toute petite

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 13 Nov 2009 11:26

India has competent people, but unless the current setup collapses no one will listen to them.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 14 Nov 2009 07:09

ss_roy wrote: India has competent people, but unless the current setup collapses no one will listen to them.

There are many who do listen. But why arent these competent people speaking at all on REAL problems like poverty, corruption in policemen, corruption/nepotism in judges etc? I dont at all doubt the competency of people, but their silence on pressing problems shows a total lack of concern and nothing else.

If the existing administrative setup collapses, then US, UK, China will pick up parts of India and there will be nothing left to speak about even of there are people to listen at that time. If a person is waiting for things to worsen, hoping that people will listen when things worsen then I really doubt his competence. When things worsen, there will be so many crises in each one's lives that they will have lesser and lesser patience and time to listen. At that time, they only want some NaMo like "strong leader" and chances are high that foreigners will be able to place a strong leader of who will appear as pro-Indian but would actually implement pro-MNC agenda. So if the competent people have concern, the BEST time to speak up is NOW.

=============

RayC wrote:If China could do it, I wonder why we cannot!

And lets add, "If US can do it, so can we".

.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 14 Nov 2009 07:54

nukavarapu wrote: - Most of the indian girls dont wear jeans

I would laugh at his face and call him retarded. What dumb points

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 10 Dec 2009 06:02

Don't know if this is directly relevant to this thread. But I came across this interview of IG from 1971 that I had not seen before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OdRm7AS ... re=related

India has not had a more clear-headed leader before and after her. How I wish we had somebody with that clarity of thought and purpose in these times of great challenge and great opportunity.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Dec 2009 09:17

Sridhar wrote:
India has not had a more clear-headed leader before and after her. How I wish we had somebody with that clarity of thought and purpose in these times of great challenge and great opportunity.

Indian society has been socially engineered using media and education to prevent such a clarity in the leadership

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 10 Dec 2009 10:27

Actually I believe PVNR was in the same league as her. He got India through a number of crisis.
I differ from others in this regard where ABV is concerned. His policies were short sighted and the BJP government acually hurt India in the long run. They really need to cook more in CM roles before they are ready for national leadership

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 18 Dec 2009 19:43

L K Advani steps down as leader of opposition, Sushma takes over : http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 88061.aspx

Sushma was apparently conspiring with the Bellary Reddy brothers to bring down the BJP gov't in Karnataka - Karnataka government crisis is a proxy for BJP-RSS war : http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ka ... ar_1307805

So it seems that the Advani coterie is thick with the mining mafia. Janardhan Reddy had apparently teamed up with Jagan Reddy (YSR's son) to blow up the Sunkulamma temple. YSR was also financially linked with the Reddy Bros. The links of the YSR group to evangelical forces are well-known.

On the other hand, it was the Congress gov't of AP that recently took some action against the mining mafia.

Sushma is also well-known for theatrical antics like threatening to shave her head, and for calling the Ram temple issue an "encashed cheque".

The BJP is in a pathetic condition.

Mohan Bhagwat provides some hope, but the jury is still out on that. In any case his influence seems limited.

By the way, there is a nice new article by Koenraad Elst on the BJP, Babri etc - The BJP Hypocrisy : http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?263310

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 18 Dec 2009 21:01

Pranav wrote: Sushma was apparently conspiring with the Bellary Reddy brothers to bring down the BJP gov't in Karnataka - Karnataka government crisis is a proxy for BJP-RSS war ... So it seems that the Advani coterie is thick with the mining mafia. Janardhan Reddy had apparently teamed up with Jagan Reddy (YSR's son) to blow up the Sunkulamma temple. YSR was also financially linked with the Reddy Bros. The links of the YSR group to evangelical forces are well-known.

Mining mafia is sub-mafia. The main mafia are MNCs. Just as Mukeshjee's is Rockefellarjee's puppet, the mining mafia of bellary are puppets of MNCs in iron and steel business. All this proves what I suspected since LKA started singing Jinha-bhajans -- he has officially accepted to become EJ-MNC agent in India. Many are now pinning hope on Modi, who is only BJP leader who is still not an EJ agent. Little do they know that Modi has already become an MNC agent and it is matter of time before he becomes EJ agent as well.

On the other hand, it was the Congress gov't of AP that recently took some action against the mining mafia.

Thats because MNCs want to trifurcate AP and Jagan is opposing. Just as Dawood may try to clip the wing of a junior who may have become too powerful, MNCs do want to ensure that Jagan doesnt grow too big after YSR was accidented successfully.

1. The BJP is in a pathetic condition.

2. Mohan Bhagwat provides some hope, but the jury is still out on that. In any case his influence seems limited.

Yes, but there is some hope. Most BJP workers are pro-corruption and joined BJP for patronage only. But many who joined BJP were anti-corruption, and now they are moving en-masse towards Bharat Swabhiman Trust. The laws Bharat Swabhiman proposes are terrible, but Ramdevjee is doing an excellent task --- he is politicising all spiritual people and making them think about politics, And he is making all BJP-RSS people think about laws and administration. Before this, BJP-RSS leaders would give bhashans on moral value, national character etc and suppress all debates on laws, courts, administrative structures etc. But Bharat Swabhiaman is welcoming debate on these topics en-masse in all their meetings. As more and more BJP workers get pulled by Bharat Swabhiman Trust, BJP will be forced to debate on laws, courts, administrative structures and this may result into some improvement.

I wont put too many hopes on MB. MB systematically evades all debates on laws, drafts, administrative structures, court systems etc. He makes no attempt of informing RSS workers about flaws in administrative structures and how west fixed them. The RSS workers are committed and clueless as they have been since 1920s, and Bhagwat is not making any change.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 18 Dec 2009 22:21

At some point people were having *rgasms on Laloo's vision.

Mamata's white paper on Railways paints Lalu black

The actual position of the state of finances of the Indian Railways does not endorse the claims of turnaround during the five-year tenure of Lalu Prasad as minister, says an official report released on Friday.

The white paper, tabled in parliament by Railway Minister Mamata Banerjee, says changes were made in the accounting procedures during her predecessor's tenure to show some questionable cash surpluses, which were also not stacked away but spent.

And a comment summarizes the leadership aspect of this nonsense!

The same SONIA-SINGH DUO praised Lalu's all bugwash with the artificial smile in the Parliament, as at that point of time he & his Hon'ble (sheep of MPs) were all required to avoid the collapse of the Govt ! Now when he's discredited, the Duo are using Didi's stick to beat him with !!

The Media too played its part in heaping praises & eulogies on Lalu as the unlettered genius, doctorate, etc .. Why even from the USA, MBA students started pourig in to hear him at the Rail Bhavan & Delhi auditoria as to his techniques of making the white elephant--rather Juggernaut--a profitable venture .. that is all nothing but a MIRAGE !!

As for the passengers, his classifying ten months out of a year as the PEAK and the remaining two as the Non-Peak periods for concessional fare, etc, is nothing but FARCE .. Biggest amongst his short-sighted policies was to RESERVE NEARLY ONE-THIRD OF THE NORMAL QUOTA FOR "TATKAL" Scheme, thru' which the Public was simply LOOTED. In order to please Lalu, the Southern Rly Management OVERDID this Tatkal business to maximum extent, as to deprive the genuine passengers even before five days of the journey!!

Didi's white-paper shd be treated as the genuine legal document to proceed against Lalu in an appropriate Court of Law for all his misdeeds !!

**Ram & Ravi**

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 18 Dec 2009 23:10

The PoliticsParty site says the CBI is investigating the Reddy miners and that the arrest of Sushma and the Reddy's is due soon.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 18 Dec 2009 23:36

IG knew how to deal with TSP as she was very clever.
But political chicanery was at its highest at IG times. Clerks like RK Dhawan and Yashpal Kapoor were de-facto deputy prime ministers. Even top IAS/IPS officers and Chief Ministers used to Sir-Sir Dhawan and the whole culture of independent administration and judiciary was spoilt during that time.
Dhawan was a Clerk and now he lives in poshest of the posh Golf Links which speaks for itself. Less said about Dhirendra Brahamchari the better.
NRao was definately the finest PM India ever had and it was unfortunate that he never had a full majority like RG or IG had.

Sridhar wrote:Don't know if this is directly relevant to this thread. But I came across this interview of IG from 1971 that I had not seen before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OdRm7AS ... re=related

India has not had a more clear-headed leader before and after her. How I wish we had somebody with that clarity of thought and purpose in these times of great challenge and great opportunity.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 18 Dec 2009 23:37

Rahul Mehta wrote:Many are now pinning hope on Modi, who is only BJP leader who is still not an EJ agent. Little do they know that Modi has already become an MNC agent and it is matter of time before he becomes EJ agent as well.

I haven't made up my mind about this as yet. But the way Modi was making statements supporting the Global Warming Fraud was not a good sign.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Dec 2009 06:42

Pulikeshi wrote:
Ipso facto - what is your takaleef? It must be me!

Most of the problem is only this. Takleef of people posting here.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 19 Dec 2009 07:24

Some areas India needs to take the lead..Sorry if this is offensive, but it's my faith to express this too!

Christopher Hitchens in Sydney!

http://www.youtube.com/user/hitchenscha ... tNjgjdzoyY

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Dec 2009 11:28

Pranav wrote:
I haven't made up my mind about this as yet. But the way Modi was making statements supporting the Global Warming Fraud was not a good sign.

Modi is being Moody!

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 10 Jan 2010 08:52

Fantastic "eulogy" for the still-alive Jyoti Basu:

Destroyer of West Bengal by Kanchan Gupta: http://www.dailypioneer.com/228148/Dest ... engal.html

Had it been Jyoti Banerjee lying unattended in a filthy general ward of SSKM Hospital in Kolkata and not Jyoti Basu in the state-of-the-art ICCU of AMRI Hospital, among the swankiest and most expensive super-speciality healthcare facilities in West Bengal, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh would not have bothered to arrange for a video-conference for top doctors at AIIMS to compare notes with those attending on the former Chief Minister of West Bengal.

Jyoti Banerjee, like most of us, spent his working life paying taxes to the Government. Jyoti Basu spent the better part of his life living off tax-payers’ money — the conscience of the veteran Marxist was never pricked by the fact that he appropriated for himself a lifestyle shunned by his comrades and denied to the people of a State whose fate he presided over for a quarter century. Kalachand Roy laid what we know today as Odisha to waste in the 16th century; Jyoti Basu was the 20th century’s Kala Pahad who led West Bengal from despair to darkness, literally and metaphorically.

Uncharitable as it may sound, but there really is no reason to nurse fond memories of Jyoti Basu. In fact, there are no fond memories to recall of those days when hopelessness permeated the present and the future appeared bleak. Entire generations of educated middle-class Bengalis were forced to seek refuge in other States or migrate to America as Jyoti Basu worked overtime to first destroy West Bengal’s economy, chase out Bengali talent and then hand over a disinherited State to Burrabazar traders and wholesale merchants who overnight became ‘industrialists’ with a passion for asset-stripping and investing their ‘profits’ elsewhere. A State that was earlier referred to as ‘Sheffield of the East’ was rendered by Jyoti Basu into a vast stretch of wasteland; the Oxford English Dictionary would have been poorer by a word had he not made ‘gherao’ into an officially-sanctioned instrument of coercion; ‘load-shedding’ would have never entered into our popular lexicon had he not made it a part of daily life in West Bengal though he ensured Hindustan Park, where he stayed, was spared power cuts. It would have been churlish to grudge him the good life had he not exerted to deny it to others, except of course his son Chandan Basu who was last in the news for cheating on taxes that should have been paid on his imported fancy car.

Let it be said, and said bluntly, that Jyoti Basu’s record in office, first as Deputy Chief Minister in two successive United Front Governments beginning 1967 (for all practical purposes he was the de facto Chief Minister with a hapless Ajoy Mukherjee reduced to indulging in Gandhigiri to make his presence felt) and later as Chief Minister for nearly 25 years at the head of the Left Front Government which has been in power for 32 years now, the “longest elected Communist Government” as party commissars untiringly point out to the naïve and the novitiate, is a terrible tale of calculated destruction of West Bengal in the name of ideology. It’s easy to criticise the CPI(M) for politicising the police force and converting it into a goons brigade, but it was Jyoti Basu who initiated the process. It was he who instructed them, as Deputy Chief Minister during the disastrous UF regime, to play the role of foot soldiers of the CPI(M), first by not acting against party cadre on the rampage, and then by playing an unabashedly partisan role in industrial and agrarian disputes.

The fulsome praise that is heaped on Jyoti Basu today — he is variously described by party loyalists and those enamoured of bhadralok Marxists as a ‘humane administrator’ and ‘farsighted leader’ — is entirely misleading if not undeserving. Within the first seven months of the United Front coming to power, 43,947 workers were laid off and thousands more rendered jobless as factories were shut down following gheraos and strikes instigated and endorsed by him. The flight of capital in those initial days of emergent Marxist power amounted to Rs 2,500 million. In 1967, there were 438 ‘industrial disputes’ involving 165,000 workers and resulting in the loss of five million man hours. By 1969, there were 710 ‘industrial disputes’ involving 645,000 workers and a loss of 8.5 million man hours. That was a taste of things to come in the following decades. By the time Jyoti Basu demitted office, West Bengal had nothing to boast of except closed mills and shuttered factories; every institution and agency of the State had been subverted under his tutelage; and, the civil administration had been converted into an extension counter of the CPI(M) with babus happy to be used as doormats.

After every outrage, every criminal misdeed committed by Marxist goons or the police while he was Chief Minister, Jyoti Basu would crudely respond with a brusque “Emon to hoyei thaakey” (or, as Donald Rumsfeld would famously say, “Stuff happens!”). He did not brook any criticism of the Marich Jhapi massacre by his police in 1979 when refugees from erstwhile East Pakistan were shot dead in cold blood. Till date, nobody knows for sure how many died in that slaughter for Jyoti Basu never allowed an independent inquiry. Neither did the man whose heart bled so profusely for the lost souls of Nandigram hesitate to justify the butchery of April 30, 1982 when 16 monks and a nun of the Ananda Marg order were set ablaze in south Kolkata by a mob of Marxist thugs. The man who led that murderous lot was known for his proximity to Jyoti Basu, a fact that the CPI(M) would now hasten to deny. Nor did Jyoti Basu wince when the police shot dead 13 Congress activists a short distance from Writers’ Building on July 21, 1993; he later justified the police action, saying it was necessary to enforce the writ of the state. Yet, he wouldn’t allow the police to act every time Muslims ran riot, most infamously after Mohammedan Sporting Club lost a football match.

Did Jyoti Basu, who never smiled in public lest he was accused of displaying human emotions, ever spare a thought for those who suffered terribly during his rule? Was he sensitive to the plight of those who were robbed of their lives, limbs and dignity by the lumpen proletariat which kept him in power? Did his heart cry out when women health workers were gang-raped and then two of them murdered by his party cadre on May 17, 1990 at Bantala on the eastern margins of Kolkata? Or when office-bearers of the Kolkata Police Association, set up under his patronage, raped Nehar Banu, a poor pavement dweller, at Phulbagan police station in 1992? “Emon to hoyei thaakey,” the revered Marxist would say, and then go on to slyly insinuate that the victims deserved what they got.

As a Bengali, I grieve for the wasted decades but for which West Bengal, with its huge pool of talent, could have led India from the front. I feel nothing for Jyoti Basu.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 10 Jan 2010 09:22

A very apt description of JB and his regime!

Jyoti (Light) to Andhakar (Darkness)!

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Jan 2010 16:54

Thought leader Baba Ramdev's life under threat?

Ramdev faces threat to life
http://www.dailypioneer.com/230382/Ramd ... -life.html

Navin Upadhyay | New Delhi

Terrorist groups, MNCs targeting Baba

Yoga guru wants security to be upgraded

Yoga guru Baba Ramdev is facing threat to his life and intelligence agencies are keeping a close watch on his security.

Alarmed by a spate of emails, letters and independent feedback that pointed to the ever growing threats to his life, Baba Ramdev has informed the Home Ministry and intelligence agencies that he could be targeted by Islamic militant groups and multinational agencies.

“Yes, Baba has informed the Government about the threats to his life,” says Bala Krishna, a close associate of the Yoga guru.

Talking to The Pioneer over phone, Bala Krishna said IB sleuths have been visiting the Patanjali Yogpeeth at Haridwar and trying to assess the nature of threats. “They have met the guru and discussed the whole issue of threats and security with him. We feel that Baba’s security must be upgraded,” Bala Krishna said.

The man who has revolutionised yoga teaching and taken the Indian tradition of medicine and cure to different corners of the world, has been provided Y-category security that involves protection by nine policemen.

Sources said that Baba has specifically identified two potential threats; one from Islamic militant groups, and the second from MNCs. Baba is reported to have told IB sleuths and officials that based on personal knowledge and feedback received from his well-wishers, he apprehends that he was on the hit list of Islamic groups for preaching religious tolerance and communal amity.

At the same time, he has expressed fears that several MNCs could be keen to see him eliminated because his preaching of ‘swadeshi’ and campaign to avoid harmful consumer goods produced by these multinationals.

Baba has been in the centre of many controversies in the past. He has repeatedly lashed out against colas and advised the people to use them as toilet cleaners. His advocacy of Indian medicine and his claim that he could cure AIDS and cancer with yoga and pranayam has also won him many detractors.

Talking about threats from extremist outfits, Bal Krishna said, “Baba’s thrust on reaching out to even the Muslims has angered several fanatical elements. They think he is a kafir who should be eliminated for teaching yoga to the Muslims.”

Bala Krishna added that Baba’s campaign against corruption has also earned him many enemies. A section of people are threatened by him, and they have every reason to eliminate him. We have repeatedly drawn the attention of the Government to the threats, but adequate steps have not been taken to protect him.”

Bal Krishna said that ‘hate’ emails and letters could have been dismissed as handiworks of ‘cranks’, but independent inputs from different sources have suggested that certain elements were actively plotting to eliminate Baba.

“We hope that the Government will take the threat seriously and act accordingly by upgrading his security cover,” Bal Krishna said.

There are plenty of people who have takleef with Ramdev Baba - not just multinational and Jihadist interests but also entrenched corrupt types. Ramdev Baba is a deeply subversive phenomenon.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 19 Jan 2010 18:44

enqyoob wrote:So if India had developed "thought leaders" we should have instead have had a few civil wars, and then had a few guys write novels on the horrors of these wars, like the gay cat-lover Ernest Hemingway. Maybe Ernestoswamy Hem Singh Way?
For Whom The Bull Bellows
?

In 1984, right after the assasination of Indira Gandhi, the resident dummy Editor of the Atlanta Fishwrap, one Robert Ackerman, wrote a long column titled:
If it took an Indira to rule it, India is no democracy
The Editor's theme was that India was about to crumble - a theme that reflected the Fishwrap's oft-expressed PRC-funded dreams.

My evil 4th cousin thrice removed, well.... wrote a response that the Fishwrap, amazingly, published. Sort of ripped the Editor a few new musharrafs.

But the fact is that it is a miracle that India has held together. A far better miracle that there has actually been a gradual upward movement.

And for all this, Indians deserve no credit? A generation of "scientific coolies"? As opposed to Thought Leaders a.ka. "Scientifically illiterate junkies"? "Superstitious holies"? "Pompous drunks"? (What else were Hemingway, Thoreau, Cervantes, Lenin, or Marx?) Or "educated mass murderers"? What else was the Sorbonne-PhD Pol Pot? Does Thought Leadership get any more exclusive than Le Docteur de la Sorbonne?

Please do remember, "Only the paranoid survive!" The objective of this thread is to get us thinking and induce a certain sense of positive paranoia about Bharat and its strategy for the future. In considering strategy, it always has to be "pound wise and penny foolish". I'll leave it to you to debate on how you choose to interpret that.

Bharat has already had its civil wars and its Ernestoswamy Hem Singh Way's and its "For Whom The Bull Bellows"! Remember, ancient Lanka and Kurukshetra, remember Valmiki and Vyasa, remember Ramayana and Mahabharatha?

Robert Ackerman was just kissing Nixon and Kissinger's a%$es when he wrote that piece, dont even waste your grey cells talking about him, btw Nixon and Kissinger used to refer to IG as "the b#!%h" and Indians as "don#^ys"! All three of them were pro-PRC as well!

These so called "miracles" that you are referring to are nothing more than the law of probability making its presence felt. We had been trounced and beaten down a zillion times before and so we managed to stick together. I appreciate the fact that we held together and I also appreciate the position that you take with regard to this but you must understand that there are certain forces at work which are beyond the comprehension of simple mortals like you and me and the rest of the "humans?" on BRF. The simple fact is that the world cannot afford India not holding itself together and regressing back into the 16th century, when most of the country was like today's NWFP anyway.

You have taken all the more popular examples of literary and political greats as examples of "thought-leaders". I am not disputing your selection but wish to put forward another name: Howard Zinn. Here is an author who, after his initial book has written a lot of works on the way forward for USA. He has also vehemently expressed his displeasure (about the Iraq War) in books on Operation Desert Storm and the like, in these works a stark discrepancy between the author's America and the real America is evident. There are other examples, such as Jules Verne, H.G Wells and Herman Melville. These authors may be far from perfect, personally and professionally, they've left their mark nevertheless.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 19 Jan 2010 19:00

Pranav wrote:Thought leader Baba Ramdev's life under threat?

There are plenty of people who have takleef with Ramdev Baba - not just multinational and Jihadist interests but also entrenched corrupt types. Ramdev Baba is a deeply subversive phenomenon.

On the same note, you could also say that the Dalai Lama's life is also perennially under threat because he is a thorn in PRC's side? Doesnt that make the Tibetan cause worthy of salvation? Or are we Bharatiyaas going to stick to some "boundary" which was decided within a "blink of an eye" as far as the history of this civilization is concerned and say that Tibet is none of our business?

I'm not going OT here, I'm just trying to get the others to see the "bigger picture". In thinking of strategic future, one must encourage lateral thinking, I say that instead of thinking "outside the box", we Bharatiyaas just demolish the box and think "outside"!

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 19 Jan 2010 19:33

In fact, there may be a hidden benefit to these "scientific-coolies" as some ppl here like to call them. If any of you know the routine within the elite business/management schools in India or anywher else, they teach you that it is more important to have good questions rather than good answers (this is taught in courses such as Managing Leadership and Growth, Strategy Management etc). Many times, the only way to good answers is through thoughtful, insightful and probing questions.

WE never lacked the insight, it was always within us. However it takes the right questions to bring it to the forefront of our awareness. Hope the ppl here understood why I think the "scientific-coolie" (only those finishing business school btw) might finally be able to provide us with a strong enough "why"!

For the uninitiated, a "why" is the "strategic vision" for the future of India.

Another adage is that "A person with a strong enough why can bear with almost any how!"- Courtesy of a world-famous Austrian author, you can find out who he is easily enough!

We must carry out a detailed SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats) analysis of the country and our present situations! The problem with a lot of us is that we suffer from "excusitis"-which is the failure disease. The Indianised version of this disease is known as "chaltha hai" attitude!

To carry the discussion forward, I'd like to add that Jaswant Singh (shortly after his expulsion from the BJP and the release of his book, I dont remember which came first!) said that Jinnah (& reportedly Mahatma as well, I'm not sure about the Mahatma's part though) dreamt of India as a "federal republic", there is a newspaper article on this as well. Now I'm not a Jinnah supporter whatsoever, I'd just like to take this thread forward by requesting all of you to post your views on whether such a federal republic would have (or will be in the future) satisfied (satisfying) our appetites from a strategic POV (strategic vision) as a sustainable entity.

Sorry for the triple posts, hopefully the admins will not think I'm an opportunist and BAN me?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Jan 2010 19:45

Klaus wrote: On the same note, you could also say that the Dalai Lama's life is also perennially under threat because he is a thorn in PRC's side? Doesnt that make the Tibetan cause worthy of salvation? Or are we Bharatiyaas going to stick to some "boundary" which was decided within a "blink of an eye" as far as the history of this civilization is concerned and say that Tibet is none of our business?

I'm not going OT here, I'm just trying to get the others to see the "bigger picture". In thinking of strategic future, one must encourage lateral thinking, I say that instead of thinking "outside the box", we Bharatiyaas just demolish the box and think "outside"!

Hmmm ... did not quite get you. Can you spell out how your point applies to the specific circumstance of Ramdev Baba's thought-leadership, and the discomfort it is causing in some quarters?

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 21 Jan 2010 01:18

^ You will have to combine-read all my 3 posts to see what I am getting at! I'm sorry I did not write it out in a single post as my train of thought was interrupted on that day.

While I accept that Baba Ramdev is trying to change the status quo in more ways than one, the same does apply to the Dalai Lama as well. He may not be socially engineering India but his campaign has a veiled message which prompts us to go back to our roots.

Any radical thought leadership has always met with overwhelming opposition and the case of Ramdev Baba is no different! The country could use his thought leadership as a springboard to sweeping change in mentality if it chooses to do so, otherwise it is going to be a case of he was not the first and he is not going to be the last.

I apologize if my explanation is still vague but thought needs to be translated into actions on the ground for any kind of distilled path to emerge!

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 21 Jan 2010 22:09

Narender Modis definition of progress

Coke, Booz and Monsanto

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/biz/ ... 482520.cms

US cos tell Modi to lift prohibition

interest of business development in the state. A presentation by top consultancy firm KPMG before Modi, made on behalf of the American Chamber of Commerce in India (AMCHAM) on Wednesday, mentioned this as one of the key concerns for improving American investment prospects.

KPMG has also served as a key consultant of the Gujarat government for Vibrant Gujarat investors summits every alternative year since 2003. During the interaction with Modi, at least two other members of the delegation also asked the CM to lift prohibition. They believed, it would improve the prospects of American business in Gujarat and generate high revenues for the state government.

The interaction with the chief minister was led by Tejpreet Singh Chopra, president and CEO, General Electric (GE) India, who is also the AMCHAM chairman. Representatives from Boeing International, Quaker Chemical, Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu India, Marriott Hotel, Brown Forman Worldwide, Crown Worldwide Movers, Cognizant Technology Solutions, DuPont, Exxon Mobil, Monsanto, PriceWaterHouseCoopers, Coca-Cola and Intel were also present.

GE showed keen interest in setting up a nuclear power plant in Gujarat. The Coca-Cola representative informed Modi about the companys decision to double the capacity of its Goblaj plant with an additional investment of Rs 100 crore.
Monsanto, a key factor in the sharp rise in Bt cotton output in Gujarat, as also DuPont, showed interest in value-addition in farm produce. They wanted to enter into developing biotechnology devices, drought proofing and weed control, a senior official said.
Modi, on his part, invited the MNCs to invest in environmentally safe technologies, health and education in Gujarat. Though he has been denied a US visa in the past, he wanted American presence in Gujarat to further go up.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 21 Jan 2010 22:16

^^ For the cost of those useful MNCs to the environment - Coke, Monsanto esp., we could easily build heavy industry to develop infrastructure and generate sustainability.
But I guess that kind of thinking is hard to ask for from our politicians.
And why American MNCs, why not a good old german engineering firm? Why these non essentials, why not a lockheed martin?

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 23 Jan 2010 15:21

Strategic leadership is a never ending quest, it is like trying to find meaning in one's life. As far as Baba Ramdev's BSA mass campaign is concerned, it has certainly got many prepared minds in its followers, the intrinsic property of leadership implies that BSA's goals should be multilayered.

This means that each goal should have a set of objectives with a definite plan of action, feasibility studies included.

Strategic leadership for the future of any nation is very much like formulating corporate company policy, the only areas where it is different is in the scale and scope of operations. One has also to think of managing benefits and risk, so there is a Type 1 and Type 2 objective to every goal which is formulated.

Type 1: Feasibility Analysis, Risk Analysis, Plan of action, Marshalling resources and allocating them, Execution, Feedback.
Type 2: Benefit Analysis, Risk analysis of any possible after-effects of action, real-time damage minimisation etc.

Again this is the reason why I think that the "scientific-coolies" from B-schools will be our key sources, as they would have competencies in the above areas during their working lives

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 23 Jan 2010 18:25

I just wanted to point out that today Jan 23, 2010 is the 113 birthday of Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose. Please remember him. The Congress Party governments have caused an institutional loss of his service and memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhas_Chandra_Bose

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 24 Jan 2010 17:51

Jarita wrote:^^ For the cost of those useful MNCs to the environment - Coke, Monsanto esp., we could easily build heavy industry to develop infrastructure and generate sustainability.
But I guess that kind of thinking is hard to ask for from our politicians.
And why American MNCs, why not a good old german engineering firm? Why these non essentials, why not a lockheed martin?

http://business.rediff.com/column/2010/ ... -areas.htm

I do not know whether Rajni Bakshi is yet another Barkha Dutt but this article seems to bring a lot to the fore. Not sure whether this is a novel attempt or not, certainly a lot of hands and heads working in the background so that Vineet Rai could come so far in his crusade!

I guess the problem with heavy industry is the mindset, the founders generally invest so much over a protracted period of time that they aggressively seek out returns, one can really not make an Aavishkaar out of Lockheed Martin unless there is groundbreaking paradigm shift.

Pranav, with regard to your query about Baba Ramdev, it is this kind of inclusiveness which is necessary for strategic leadership to succeed. It is the compulsion to explore "wierd" trains of thought such as "Will yoga result in improved performance in taekwondo in the Olympics and result in a gold medal?" OR "With the strengths that we Indians have in boxing (even at the Olympic level), can we use those strengths and competencies to train key atheletes in Greco-Roman mat wrestling? (in which India has hardly fielded anybody, let alone win medals)". Obviously, you understand that these thought offshoots involve assumptions that we will be able to obtain the best in training, advice and funding etc, but as the saying goes "A thousand mile journey begins with a single step"

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 25 Jan 2010 06:25

Wow! Surprised to see these people speaking abt issues dear to moi

http://www.newkerala.com/news/fullnews-37304.html

RSS chief criticises Pakistan and China

Kolkata, Jan 24 : Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS) chief Mohan Bhagwat has voiced his anguish over Pakistan and China for deceiving mutual faith.

Addressing a gathering of RSS here, Bhagwat criticised Pakistan for its hostile attitude towards India despite the government's supportive and friendly approach to its neighbour.

Bhagwat said, "Attacks like 26/11 happened on India, Pakistan struck our Parliament, then also India did not say anything, what have we got out of it."

"I read it somewhere that ministers from Pakistan are saying that they cannot guarantee no other terror attack on India," added Bhagwat.

Bhagwat further said India should teach a lesson to Pakistan and take strong steps against China while highlighting the problem of infiltration from Bangladesh.
Bhagwat expressed apprehensions about China and suggested all efforts should be made to stop China usurping the Indian territory.

The RSS chief accused China of betraying India in the name of friendship, usurping the northeastern land seeking influence in the Indian territories.

Bhagwat also spoke against acquisition of land for industry and farmers getting dependent on genetically modified seeds.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Jan 2010 13:58

RSS -- has always taken a stand for secular (as opposed to pseudo one), liberal and nationalist values -- their painting as a radical knee jerk organization or the lack of knowledge of what they stand for is something which can not be explained short of some harsh truths.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2010 00:40

K.M. Pannikar in his book "Asia and Western Dominance" says in the chapter on India and the Islands, the same root cause was at play in Deccan after death of Asaf Jah, the death of nawabs Anwer Din of Arcot and Aly Verdi Khan: the principle of converting an official post to a heriditary princedom. This caused dissension and disloyalty to the claimant and into the breach stepped in the colonial traders and gained ascendency.
In all these cases the claimants wanted to convert an appointed post into a heriditary post and found dynasties. In the old way dynasties were founded by dint of hard work and arms. In the declining days of the Mughal Empire the prinicple was to convert an appointed post to that of heriditary rule by conspiracy or other means.

We see the same effort in the gradual conversion of the Nehru family from elected politicians to a ruling dynasty and others in same manner in the different states.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Jan 2010 01:04

ramana wrote: This caused dissension and disloyalty to the claimant and into the breach stepped in the colonial traders and gained ascendency.
In all these cases the claimants wanted to convert an appointed post into a heriditary post and found dynasties.
We see the same effort in the gradual conversion of the Nehru family from elected politicians to a ruling dynasty and others in same manner in the different states.

We need to remove this colonial practice and imposed political power structure.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2010 22:50

A forgotten chapter of modern India's history: How was the transition from Gandhi family handled. Its the psychophants/courtiers who perpetuate this.

Natwar Singh on PVNR's rise to power

NEW DELHI: The Congress brass’ conspicuous refusal to comment on the P V Narasimha Rao era during the party’s 125th foundation day anniversary function last week once again demonstrated the leadership’s cultivated disconnect with the former party president-cum-prime minister.

Giving a new twist to this enduring political puzzle, former external affairs minister and one time insider of the Gandhi family, K Natwar Singh said it was not Mr Rao but then vice president Shankar Dayal Sharma who was 10 Janpath’s first choice for the post of prime minister in 1991 in the immediate aftermath of Rajiv Gandhi’s assassination. It was only after the late Sharma politely declined the offer on health grounds, did Mr Rao’s candidature come up, he added.

Mr Singh’s disclosure brings a new insight into the backroom moves that culminated in the dramatic elevation of Mr Rao as the Congress president and the prime minister. It brings forth some hitherto unpublicised twists and turns behind the eventual coronation of Mr Rao after Ms Sonia Gandhi turned down the Congress Working Committee appeal to take over the party presidentship soon after her husband’s assassination. Mr Singh’s close association with Congress and the Gandhi family abruptly ended in the wake of the Volcker oil scam that consumed his ministership and Congress career in 2005. Mr Singh is now a self-proclaimed “gentleman at large with no desire to return to active politics”.

Maintaining that he felt, at the age of 80, the need to put in right perspective a historic behind-the-scene-event that took place almost two decades ago, Mr Singh told ET in an exclusive interview: “After Rajiv Gandhi’s assassination, Sonia Gandhi, in grief, conducted herself in an extremely dignified manner and like a Hindu widow. She, rightly, turned down the CWC appeal to become the Congress president which also, then, meant the post of the prime minister of the new government. At the same time, she received, in a very composed manner, the many world leaders who had called on her when they came down to attend Rajiv Gandhi’s funeral. I, along with Rahul and Priyanka, was present with Sonia Gandhi during those meetings at 10 Janpath”.

Even in the midst of the national tragedy, Mr Singh said, he was aware, as were other party colleagues, of the emergency task to choose a new leader to head the party and the government. It was also clear to every Congress leader, he added, that even though Ms Gandhi had turned down the CWC request, only she could make the process of selecting the new leader acceptable to all. “So, after the funeral, I broached the subject with Ms Gandhi. I told her she was right in not accepting the CWC appeal but then the fact remained we had to address the issue of choosing someone to lead the party and the new government. She listened but kept quiet. Then I suggested that she discuss the matter with P N Haksar (the late key advisor of Indira Gandhi who was also a trusted family confidant) too. She asked for 24 hours to think about it,” Mr Singh said.

"A day after, Ms Gandhi asked me to tell P N Haksar to meet her. Then Haksar and me met her and discussed the leadership issue. At some point, Haksar told her that the then vice-president Shankar Dayal Sharma might be the right person to lead the party and the country at that juncture. She paused for a while, though about it, and then agreed with the suggestion. Soon (late) Aruna Asaf Ali and me called on Shankar Dayal Sharma with the proposal. We were in for a big surprise," said Mr Singh.

“When Arunaji and I met the the then vice president, we told him that we were placing the proposal before him as the emissaries of Ms Gandhi. Mr Sharma thought for a while and said, given his advanced age and failing health, he would not be able to do full justice to the post of the prime minister which required at least 20 hours of work every day. He said he felt honoured by the proposal and asked us to convey to Ms Gandhi his respectful gratitude. Both Arunaji and I were completely surprised by his response. After all, how many leaders turn down a proposal to become the PM! Arunaji and I returned to 10, Janpath to convey the news," Mr Singh said.

{ I guess SD Sharmaji wasnt power hungry like both these courtiers!. He was honest and deserved to be the President which he later became}

He said another round of discussion then took place between Ms Gandhi, Haksar and himself. “Then Haksar felt P V should be the next choice and she agreed. Here I must say I was not involved in discussing the matter with Mr Rao. Some others did that. Once Mr Rao, who was denied a RS re-nomination and was ready to return to Andhra Pradesh, agreed and after Sharad Pawar was made to bow out of the race, the CWC and Congress Parliamentary Party (CPP) met to elect him as the new Congress president and the prime minister”, Mr Singh added.

{See the double deal. Nominate Rao who was down and out and make Pawar bow out. BTW, PVNR was then a known diabetic and heart patient. I think PN Haskar chose people with health problems in order to ensure they dont get too powerful and supplant the family. Interesting that Notwar doesnt talk about how Arjun Singh was kept out. }

Mr Singh refused to comment on the nature of Ms Gandhi’s relations with Prime Minister Rao and on the reports that she was unhappy about the manner in which the ex-PM dealt with the investigations into the Rajiv Gandhi assassination. But then he said there were occasions later when Ms Gandhi became the Congress president she would ask him or Manmohan Singh, from time to time, to show the draft of some important statements to P V who was a skillful draftsman. “Whenever, Manmohan Singh or me took those draft to P V he made some alterations that really improved the contents”.

{Yet he mangaes to get a favorable impression of a kind Rajmata consulting the slighted former PM! Courtiers never lose their courting.}

BTW did he pay Indian taxes on those bribes from Saddam Hussian in the Oil for Food scam?