Indian Army: News & Discussion

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 22 Dec 2009 19:41

The Sri Lankan Def.Min and army websites, their briefings were very crucial to break the LTTE propaganda machine during height of the last Eelam war. They had these 'war correspondents' that reported from 'frontlines' - all well organised and orchestrated. Very good effect on morale.

Much of the TV propaganda victory we achieved during Kargil was due to most of it was the private media initiative - the briefings in New Delhi were adequate but we have not really move on in terms of technology and sauviness have we?

There was a mention of media relations in the Kargil review committe report too.

Reporting on the campaign revealed a lack of public information about the command structure of the Armed Forces and how responsibilities are distributed within the national intelligence framework. While arrangements were made for official briefings at Delhi, there were inadequate arrangements at the Corps, Division and Brigade levels. Nor were there arrangements to brief officers and men at the ground level on daily developments nor to interface with the civil authorities.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 22 Dec 2009 19:51

While I totally agree that the PR is lousy, remember Bakra Dutt and Kargil? How did that old dame, Harjinder Baweja get the 'inside' info? I found her supping with people all coy and cute!

Nor were there arrangements to brief officers and men at the ground level on daily developments nor to interface with the civil authorities

Incorrect.

There are the Daily Sitrep (Situation Reports) at times twice a day that give a total picture!

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 22 Dec 2009 21:17

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/senior_a ... uption.php
(Un)well

, Is this going somewhere,
or it is around and round like
"ringa ring of roses ....... all fell down. "

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 23 Dec 2009 05:53

RayC wrote:However, it is proved that they are brutes and not soldiers!

Fie on them!

You don't kill surrendered people!

While I agree on a wholistic level, You have to look at the fact the the SLA lost a ton (and more) of its people relative to its size. It had a 95k strength in 2001, and by then lost 18,000 soldiers killed in action (And 23k by end of the whole fighting).

In terms of percentage Thats like the Indian Army losing 2,00,000 soldiers in an insurgency lasting 17-20 years. My mind boggles at the type of carnage that must have happened.

While this high casuality rate doesnt excuse their behaviour, I certainly understand how ruthless that war had become towards the end. Niether side could expect mercy from the other.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Dec 2009 11:08

After the liberation of Bangladesh, the Bengalis wanted to kill the Razaakars and soldiers of the Pakistani Army.

The Indian Army prevented such a reprisal.

As per the Geneva Convention one cannot kill surrendered soldiers of the enemy country.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Dec 2009 11:24

RayC wrote:After the liberation of Bangladesh, the Bengalis wanted to kill the Razaakars and soldiers of the Pakistani Army.

The Indian Army prevented such a reprisal.

As per the Geneva Convention one cannot kill surrendered soldiers of the enemy country.

True and it is the same Razakars who led BD ( and indirectly India's NE and mainland due to BD inspired terrorists) down the self destruct path when they could have been nipped in the bud.

It is due to our sticking to the law while all and sundry around us break it to hurt us which causes India to be the loser. The fact that we didnt eliminate Masood Azhar, Omar Sheikh and tons of other Paki pigs citing " Humane justice systems" which came to bite us in the @$$ (Just like Prithviraj chauhan was bitten after citing "Geneva conventions" and letting Ghazni off)...

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Dec 2009 11:37

Genocide is the answer and not Conventions?

Hitler too had no qualms against the Jews!

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 23 Dec 2009 11:50

This whole so called Sukhna scam is a mares nest.

The court of inquiry proeedings havent even been finalised, and the media is insisting that they are guilty!

Someone is behind all this for sure. Issuance of an NoC for construction on private land adjacent to defence land is certainly not grounds for court martial. Even if the NoC was wrongly issued, (I dont see why), at the most, it would under ordinary circumstances invite a mild censure, possibly a written reprimand if necessary (also very unusual). Now, noone who owns ANY land next to defence land will EVER be able to build on it, because noone will want to be the one to give permission.

What security was compromised by the building of structures on this land? Was any? If not, why this ruckus? But noone has asked THAT question.

Who is driving this case? And why is the media swarming around it like a pack of piranhas? 2008-2009 has been a year when the armed forces have been savaged by the media, on relatively minor and flimsy excuses.

Why? I want to know the answer. Because somebody is behind it, and whoever it is, is acting completely against the national interest.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Dec 2009 13:22

http://idrw.org/?p=2122

New improved Remotely Operated Vehicles (ROV) made in the United Kingdom have been inducted by Indian Army to use it against Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) in Jammu and Kashmir.
“For the defusing of IEDs planted by the militants and avoid causalities in blasts, latest state-of-the-art technology of UK-made ROVs has been inducted in the operations here,” according to a media report.
“The ROVs, remotely-controlled tracked vehicles designed to conduct investigation and deal with the IEDs, have recently been delivered to 115 engineers in the state along with several other Engineering units,” an army official was quoted as saying.
Latest technology of ROVs has a cable drum up to 150 meters and fiber optic cable up to 200 meters and can be controlled up to a distance of one km. They have chains like a tank or a JCB which make it different from the old ones.
“There is full-fledged command station, which acts as a control centre for remote operating and monitoring ROV. The station has several latest tools to deal with IEDs, including manipulator shotgun, disrupt laser, mechanical grab, car towing equipment and X-ray system,” the official said.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Dec 2009 13:28

Daksh is an electrically powered and remotely controlled robot used for locating, handling and destroying hazardous objects safely. [1]Daksh speaks for the ingenuity of the R&DE(E). It is a battery-operated robot on wheels and its primary role is to recover improvised explosive devices (IEDs). It locates IEDs with an X-ray machine, picks them up with a gripper-arm and defuses them with a jet of water. It has a shotgun, which can break open locked doors, and it can scan cars for explosives. Daksh can also climb staircases, negotiate steep slopes, navigate narrow corridors and tow vehicles. Alok Mukherjee, a scientist, said: “With a master control station (MCS), it can be remotely controlled over a range of 500 m in line of sight or within buildings. Ninety per cent of the robot’s components are indigenous. The Army has placed orders for 20 Dakshs.”
Daksh

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 23 Dec 2009 14:37

RayC wrote: As per the Geneva Convention one cannot kill surrendered soldiers of the enemy country.

RayC, don't these conventions only apply to those nations that are signatories and who are clearly noncombatants ? Terrorists and sundry militia groups are not signatories and therefore legally no nation would be obliged to extend the provisions of the Geneva Convention to them. Thus, Guantanamo Bay!

Technically, all captured terrorists in J&K can be just lined up and shot without any violation of any International laws.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 23 Dec 2009 14:46

ASPuar wrote: What security was compromised by the building of structures on this land? Was any? If not, why this ruckus? But noone has asked THAT question.

Who is driving this case? And why is the media swarming around it like a pack of piranhas? 2008-2009 has been a year when the armed forces have been savaged by the media, on relatively minor and flimsy excuses.

Why? I want to know the answer. Because somebody is behind it, and whoever it is, is acting completely against the national interest.

I don't think the media spot light on this "scam" is anything nefarious at all. ALL government servants must be accountable in their actions to the people of this country. Military personnel more so. If Generals are let off to do as they please with the resources under their command, there is no telling how dangerous that can be to national security and the Indian citizenry's faith in the military. Everything in the government is about checks and balances, the military should be no different. The military is supposed to be the model that average citizens emulate. Controversies like these tarnish not only individuals but the entire establishment. How can that generals look his fellow colleges in the eyes or the thousands of jawans under him and hope to command them when he is accused of stealing from his country ?

If this scam is really a lot of hot air and there is no truth to these allegations, then more power to the military but if it that is not the case I am with those who would seek to tear this man down.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Dec 2009 17:59

Brando wrote:
I don't think the media spot light on this "scam" is anything nefarious at all. ALL government servants must be accountable in their actions to the people of this country. Military personnel more so. If Generals are let off to do as they please with the resources under their command, there is no telling how dangerous that can be to national security and the Indian citizenry's faith in the military. Everything in the government is about checks and balances, the military should be no different. The military is supposed to be the model that average citizens emulate. Controversies like these tarnish not only individuals but the entire establishment. How can that generals look his fellow colleges in the eyes or the thousands of jawans under him and hope to command them when he is accused of stealing from his country ?

If this scam is really a lot of hot air and there is no truth to these allegations, then more power to the military but if it that
is not the case I am with those who would seek to tear this man down.

Have you bothered to check the antecedents of the case as available in open or gone through what ASPaur is trying to say before pontificating? What resources are the Generals charged with misusing and stealing?

For starters, do you know that the Land does not belong to the IA?That NOC was given and subsequently withdrawn?That COI and Summary of Evidence will only suggest further course of action and do not amount to "guilty as charged"?And without some one from inside leaking the proceeding details these things cannot reach the public? And media has gone to town saying,"MS likely to be sacked/Another general to be court martialled"......BS

Please read up a bit before you jump the gun.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Dec 2009 18:04

Terrorists and sundry militia groups are not signatories and therefore legally no nation would be obliged to extend the provisions of the Geneva Convention to them. Thus, Guantanamo Bay!

Technically, all captured terrorists in J&K can be just lined up and shot without any violation of any International laws.

Correct.

If you had observed the posts, it was about LTTE.

They wore uniform and therefore were an irregular force. Terrorists wear NO uniform.

You may peruse the Geneva Convention on Google.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 23 Dec 2009 18:34

NSG commando's were in Germany for training with the GSG-9. Paanwallah sources.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 23 Dec 2009 20:53

^^ Great news Shyam. German special forces are one of the best in the field. NSG and German special forces can share huge knowhow.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Dec 2009 21:13

ashish raval wrote:^^ Great news Shyam. German special forces are one of the best in the field. NSG and German special forces can share huge knowhow.

i dont think this is new. there have been links between the 2 groups for a long time now

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 23 Dec 2009 22:44

RayC wrote:After the liberation of Bangladesh, the Bengalis wanted to kill the Razaakars and soldiers of the Pakistani Army.

The Indian Army prevented such a reprisal.

As per the Geneva Convention one cannot kill surrendered soldiers of the enemy country.

While the reprisals were prevented on a mass scale, they did occur at a smaller scale. Remember the video I posted earlier of the Pak Surrender, the first part of it shows the Mukti bahini leader Tiger Siddiqui beating up the razakars. what the TV cameras didnt capture (and what regular photographers did) were the bayonetting of those guys immediately thereafter. The story goes, all four or five of them were done in by bayonet.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Dec 2009 22:52

Jagan wrote:
RayC wrote:After the liberation of Bangladesh, the Bengalis wanted to kill the Razaakars and soldiers of the Pakistani Army.

The Indian Army prevented such a reprisal.

As per the Geneva Convention one cannot kill surrendered soldiers of the enemy country.
While the reprisals were prevented on a mass scale, they did occur at a smaller scale. Remember the video I posted earlier of the Pak Surrender, the first part of it shows the Mukti bahini leader Tiger Siddiqui beating up the razakars. what the TV cameras didnt capture (and what regular photographers did) were the bayonetting of those guys immediately thereafter. The story goes, all four or five of them were done in by bayonet.

You are right.

Let me assure you that it takes time to take charge of an area. It is not instantaneous.

But once a charge has been taken of an area, then things can be controlled.

In SL, when things were under control, it is said that the surrendered were killed. I go by what is being said since I was not there! It is supposed to have been mentioned by the Army Chief of SL.

Pirabhakaran's photos also gave rise to doubts!

I have no love lost for him for he tortured and killed quite a few of my boys when the ops started. Yet....

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 24 Dec 2009 00:28

How can an organisation of more than a million people not find competence in it to maintain a decent website with regular updates? It's a shame. Darn it, man, we're celebrating Independent India's greatest military victory - only the public would get to know so little of it.

Sri Lanka is just an example - no point going on and on about HR abuses or exterminations. It's the IA we're worried about now. Tomorrow if somebody accused the IA of rampant HR abuses whilst fighting a war we'd have zero institutionalised capacity to respond and communicate our perspective.

Speaking of PR here is a striking example of how callous the IA handles a case that can cause immense damage to its repute.An eight line press release.

This with reference to the coverage by electronic and the print media about Sukhna land Case and the ongoing Court of Inquiry at Headquarters, Eastern Command.

The Court of Inquiry has been completed and received by Army HQ today. The proceedings of the Inquiry will now be analyzed as per the existing Standard Operating Procedures in accordance with the military law.

It is reiterated that, the Army is amongst the few organizations which is very sensitive to any irregularities and have proactively sought immediate and timely action against those indulging in any wrongs.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 24 Dec 2009 00:38

Brando wrote:
I don't think the media spot light on this "scam" is anything nefarious at all. ALL government servants must be accountable in their actions to the people of this country. Military personnel more so. If Generals are let off to do as they please with the resources under their command, there is no telling how dangerous that can be to national security and the Indian citizenry's faith in the military. Everything in the government is about checks and balances, the military should be no different. The military is supposed to be the model that average citizens emulate. Controversies like these tarnish not only individuals but the entire establishment. How can that generals look his fellow colleges in the eyes or the thousands of jawans under him and hope to command them when he is accused of stealing from his country ?

If this scam is really a lot of hot air and there is no truth to these allegations, then more power to the military but if it that is not the case I am with those who would seek to tear this man down.

Indeed? Admirable sentiments, Im sure, but perhaps you should apprise yourself of the following facts before expressing desires to "tear people down".

A. The land in question was not a "resource under his command". It was private land, situated near the cantt area. And the media trying to make it sound like it was defence land, is wrong.

B. The NoC was issued simply because it is a statutory permission required when building near defence land. So no government land was "transferred" or "misused".

C. Courts of Inquiry are not the end all of matters. And the media trying to make it sound so, is wrong.

D. Reliance on heresay for printing damaging statements is libel. "Sources in army HQ say" stinks to high heaven of an orchestrated whisper campaign to me.

E. You ask "how can this general look his colleagues in the eye when he is accused of stealing from his country?". I say that accusations are free, but they dont mean anything until proven. Otherwise tomorrow you or I could be accused of anything also, whether we have done it, or not, and be ruined because of it, because some hack felt that the most interesting thing to do, would be to publish a series of articles on Brando's misdemeanours, whether it is true or not.

F. You say if there is nothing in this then more power to the military. But will the newspapers publishing this stuff issue a formal apology? Will the editors and reporters who began this campaign be fired? Will they make good the loss of reputation to those affected if nothing comes of the charges?

Tell me.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 Dec 2009 00:40

ASPuar wrote:This whole so called Sukhna scam is a mares nest.

The court of inquiry proeedings havent even been finalised, and the media is insisting that they are guilty!

Someone is behind all this for sure. Issuance of an NoC for construction on private land adjacent to defence land is certainly not grounds for court martial. Even if the NoC was wrongly issued, (I dont see why), at the most, it would under ordinary circumstances invite a mild censure, possibly a written reprimand if necessary (also very unusual). Now, noone who owns ANY land next to defence land will EVER be able to build on it, because noone will want to be the one to give permission.

What security was compromised by the building of structures on this land? Was any? If not, why this ruckus? But noone has asked THAT question.

Who is driving this case? And why is the media swarming around it like a pack of piranhas? 2008-2009 has been a year when the armed forces have been savaged by the media, on relatively minor and flimsy excuses.

Why? I want to know the answer. Because somebody is behind it, and whoever it is, is acting completely against the national interest.

ASPuarji,

Without meaning to add fuel to an already raging fire,

Is it not altruist of one to suppose that a soon to be retiring general issued an NOC to a private company from entirely selfless motives?

Dal me kuch kaala hai.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 24 Dec 2009 12:05

1. He wasn't a "soon to be retiring" general, he was a soon to be DCOAS.

2. Officers of Lt. Gen. rank are among the seniormost in the army, and their post retirement options are better than mere school governing body memberships. Some become governors, some get RS nominations, some join the UPSC as members, some get on any of a thousand other government committees, PSU boards, commissions, etc. Most are on the board of several private corporations. So officers of that rank are not likely to be swayed by a small thing like a school in Sukhna's governing body!

Does anyone really believe that a mere membership of the board of a yet to be established school is something that an officer of Deputy Chief rank would be tempted to ruin his career with? If he was a colonel or something, I might even say that this argument might be a little bit credible, but for such a senior officer, it seems strange, to say the least.

3. I say, let the system decide, why is the media showing such extreme interest in a routine enquiry for an NoC issued for construction on what is not even defence land? If he's guilty, the system will find out, and issue the appropriate punishment. Before that is found out, why the media circus? That is my question.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Dec 2009 12:37

RayC wrote:I have no love lost for him for he tortured and killed quite a few of my boys when the ops started. Yet....

Ray sir, I was only aware of 3 instances of IA soldiers captured in SL (1 from Sikh LI, a bunch from Mahar(?), and 1 from unknown unit) - were there more such incidents?

or are you referring to the 2nd one? I recall once you posted about that incident on B-R during your pre-admin days.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Dec 2009 12:52

^^^ Merits of this case notwithstanding, the amount of media manipulation by vested interests in the MoD as well as in the servces is comparable to politics and bureaucracy today...The services as an institution have gotten media savvy, and motivated individuals take advantage of that in full measure...

Was speaking to someone who is an editor on the defence and tech pages in a large media outfit. His impression of MoD was that it does not yield to anyone, not politicians, not bureaucrats in terms of exploiting things like "access" to individuals and access to news, so important to the media for "scoops" to plant its own stories..

There are many instances one can think of where vested interests seem to have been behind the "campaign" run by the media, or a section of it..The so-called casteist bias in promotions during Mulayam Singh Yadav's time as RM, implicitly implicating an officer who apparently had a stellar record, leaks in a certain magazine about Adm Arun Prakash's relations with someone implicated in the Navy war room leak (insinuations completely farcical even prima facie) are a couple of examples among many..Some of these stories these days are also planted by rival vendors looking to curry favours with or trying to get back at someone..

One needs to therefore take these allegations in the media withquite a bit of salt, unless sufficient research and documentary evidence is being published, which is rare..the number of journalists doing that is also fairly small..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Dec 2009 13:22

Just for records:

1. The 'soon-to-retire' officer is MS-Lt. Gen. Avadesh
2. NOC was given and subsequently withdrawn by the 33 Corps HQ. Lt. Gen.Rath was the GoC-in-C of 33 Corps when the NOC thing happened. He is the DCOAS designate.....before he could proceed to the new job, the case was blown up in the media.....

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 24 Dec 2009 13:22

somnath wrote:unless sufficient research and documentary evidence is being published, which is rare..the number of journalists doing that is also fairly small..

You can say that again!

Your post is correct. What I am saying is, that this media maelstrom is simply evidence (to my eye), that precisely such a manipulation of the media is currently in progress.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 24 Dec 2009 13:26

Wait and see!

However, feel good that it is only that the Indian Armed Forces will nail the guilty. And that too, fast!

The others go scot free!

Any comments?

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 24 Dec 2009 14:03

RayC wrote:Wait and see!

However, feel good that it is only that the Indian Armed Forces will nail the guilty. And that too, fast!

The others go scot free!

Any comments?

Very true indeed. The military has acted swiftly to take the guilty to punishment as it usually does. Contrast this with the Bofors case. Monitorily, a miniscule amount involved, it has held up artillery procurement for 25 yrs & we are yet to see a single bureaucrat nailed.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 24 Dec 2009 15:33

Ha. Contrast it even with the latest SS Rathore, IPS case, where the ex-DGP of Haryana molested a girl, caused her to commit suicide, got the abetment to suicide case dropped against him, harassed the girls family members till the girls brother also nearly committed suicide, got the case verdict delayed for 19 years, and after all this, got only 6 months simple imprisonment!

And this when the previous DGP said that there was prima facie evidence of both molestation and abetment to suicide, and the Haryana Home Secretary concurred.

I think the army takes its justice much more seriously than the rest of the nation.

Anyway, as I say, this Sukhna lake media campaign smells rotten. Someone is manipulating the media to get their way. Seems unlikely that any Lieutenant General is going to bend the rules, and that too for a sop as small as the board of governorship of a small time school. They have much bigger fish to fry.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 26 Dec 2009 12:23

ASPuar wrote:
somnath wrote:unless sufficient research and documentary evidence is being published, which is rare..the number of journalists doing that is also fairly small..
You can say that again!

Your post is correct. What I am saying is, that this media maelstrom is simply evidence (to my eye), that precisely such a manipulation of the media is currently in progress.

The problem is though that a lot of the "maelstrom" is the handiwork of "insiders", or disgruntled officers...The number of cases being filed on promotions by services officers in recent times have just shot up (at least anecdotally seems like), this despite a big increase in the numbers of "senior" ranks in the force..Part of the collateral damage now i in the form of using the media..The Gen Panag affair was another such incident..

To me the sense of balance has to be restored to the whole thing...For an organisation as massive in terms of size and financcial outlays, there will always be instances of corruption..They need to be handled, but this whole nonsense of horrified outrage without clear facts in the media will get "normalised" over time, as people see through the news..The problem is that the media tends to muddle up and confuse larger national security issues with semi, or non issues like these and screws up the discourse..

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 27 Dec 2009 13:42

detailed information by Suman Sharma ...

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2009/12/o ... cadre.html

To strengthen the support cadre of the Indian Army, and to tackle shortage of officers, a proposal has been put up with the Ministry of Defence (MoD), to increase the intake of short service commission (SSC) officers into the army, by making the entry more lucrative. The AG Branch of the army has made the move to reverse the ratio of the regular cadres as against the support cadre officers. The regular cadre is formed by the permanent commission officers, mainly through ex-NDA (National Defence Academy) and ex-ACC (Army Cadet College) officers, while the supporting cadre is the SSC entry, SCO (Special Commission Officers) and SL (Special List) entries.

...

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 27 Dec 2009 14:34

Aditya G wrote:detailed information by Suman Sharma ...

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2009/12/o ... cadre.html

To strengthen the support cadre of the Indian Army, and to tackle shortage of officers, a proposal has been put up with the Ministry of Defence (MoD), to increase the intake of short service commission (SSC) officers into the army, by making the entry more lucrative. The AG Branch of the army has made the move to reverse the ratio of the regular cadres as against the support cadre officers. The regular cadre is formed by the permanent commission officers, mainly through ex-NDA (National Defence Academy) and ex-ACC (Army Cadet College) officers, while the supporting cadre is the SSC entry, SCO (Special Commission Officers) and SL (Special List) entries.

...

This is great stuff. One had argued many moons back in this forum about the efficacy of a vastly expanded SSC cadre that can address the officer shortage in IA..And this SSC cadre handling the "tail" jobs while the permanent commission officers man the "teeth" jobs...It wasnt all that warmly received in the forum then

Seems that IA is looking on similar lines..

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 27 Dec 2009 19:12

It would not be fair for me to comment without having the knowledge as to what has been presented to the MOD.

However, going by the article, reversing the ratio of regular and support cadre, to me appears debatable, that is if regular cadre means combat arms and support cadre means the services.

There are many in the SS cadre who join explicitly to volunteer for combat arms. They will be disappointed and such people may not volunteer to join in the first place as SS, if they have missed the boat for NDA.

To my mind, what could be done is have adequate volunteers through better creature comfort and perks and allow them to leave at the Lt Col stage. There are Environment Battalions. More could be raised for afforestation and guarding the forest from the timber mafia. Those allowed to leave could be gainfully employed in these Battalions including the retiring PBOR. There could be Road Construction Regiments where the PBOR would be of great use and released Engineer officers could lead such Battalion/ Regiment. The ASC released officers could be gainfully employed for PDS and FCI and so on.

While one would not expect released officers to edge out the legitimate civil authorities/ aspirants, they could be used to augment them as separate units and a healthy competitive spirit could be built.

Released officers and PBOR could be employed to train the police in military skills and firing of weapons, more so in these days where policing and soldiers is almost merging!

Just my musing at first glance.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 28 Dec 2009 09:07

RayC wrote:To my mind, what could be done is have adequate volunteers through better creature comfort and perks and allow them to leave at the Lt Col stage. There are Environment Battalions. More could be raised for afforestation and guarding the forest from the timber mafia. Those allowed to leave could be gainfully employed in these Battalions including the retiring PBOR. There could be Road Construction Regiments where the PBOR would be of great use and released Engineer officers could lead such Battalion/ Regiment. The ASC released officers could be gainfully employed for PDS and FCI and so on.

IMHO PDS/FCI/Env battns are too limited (and in some cases, shrinking) islands of "post-retirement" opportunities for ex-servcemen..The pvt sector is a bigger pool..

the support services v/s combat arms example is moot..ASC, Military Police, DSC, Ordnance Corps - do these arms require the same "staff quality" personnel? Or for that matter, does the Army really require all its platoon and company commanders to be the sort that can go to staff college? If not (and I would strongly suspect that), the idea would be to man these arms/functions with SSC cadre, while creating a smaller (and therefore by probability definition better quality) permanent cadre of officers..

Kids with a real passion for the services and high aptitude will get into the latter..Those for whom the services is one of the many "options" would get diverted to the SSC..

The SSC should be made shorter in terms of tenure, 5 years ( instead of the 7 years now?), followed by a 2 year study leave for them to get absorbed in the civvie pvt sector. They will then be well placed both in terms of age (abt 27-28 years) and experience - a stint in the ASC with a decent tertiary degree will place them well in a number of industries - logisticcs, retail etc..A stint in Ordnance Corps with a similar degree will open up opportunities in defence pvt sector and so on..

This will also allow the services to really improve "creature comforts" from Lt Col upwards, as the numbers in the PC cadre would be smaller..Smart guys with real passion to serve will then not worry about being "left out" compared to their peers when they join the services..

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 28 Dec 2009 13:08

somnath wrote:
IMHO PDS/FCI/Env battns are too limited (and in some cases, shrinking) islands of "post-retirement" opportunities for ex-servcemen..The pvt sector is a bigger pool..

the support services v/s combat arms example is moot..ASC, Military Police, DSC, Ordnance Corps - do these arms require the same "staff quality" personnel? Or for that matter, does the Army really require all its platoon and company commanders to be the sort that can go to staff college? If not (and I would strongly suspect that), the idea would be to man these arms/functions with SSC cadre, while creating a smaller (and therefore by probability definition better quality) permanent cadre of officers..

Kids with a real passion for the services and high aptitude will get into the latter..Those for whom the services is one of the many "options" would get diverted to the SSC..

The SSC should be made shorter in terms of tenure, 5 years ( instead of the 7 years now?), followed by a 2 year study leave for them to get absorbed in the civvie pvt sector. They will then be well placed both in terms of age (abt 27-28 years) and experience - a stint in the ASC with a decent tertiary degree will place them well in a number of industries - logisticcs, retail etc..A stint in Ordnance Corps with a similar degree will open up opportunities in defence pvt sector and so on..

This will also allow the services to really improve "creature comforts" from Lt Col upwards, as the numbers in the PC cadre would be smaller..Smart guys with real passion to serve will then not worry about being "left out" compared to their peers when they join the services..

I agree the private sector would be the best for personnel getting released. However, one has to have an MBA or have technical degrees.

Service support should have officers of the same calibre as those of the combat arms since logistics is as important as operations. Without a good logistic support, no operations can be conducted successfully. As you will remember Musharraf came to grief in Kargil, even though he had an audacious plan, all because he did not bother to dot the ‘i’s and cross the ‘t’s as far as logistics is concerned. Along side there is the example of Siachen, which is a logistic war. Without high calibre service support personnel, it would be very difficult to sustain the operation in Siachen and make it cost efficient and operationally sustainable. Therefore, to my mind, I would not say that there should be lesser qualified officers in the service support. It is just that combat is more glamorous and hence, even in the Army, the service support people don’t get their due!

I would like to believe that going to Staff College is really not that difficult. Of course, qualifying is a career landmark and a QR for upward mobility. One has to merely swot and regurgitate. Even a dullard, if he studies one hour a day throughout this service can achieve this. It is no index of intelligence or brilliance. There are General Officers who have not done Staff College, but have reached the flag rank and even Lt Gens based on their ACRs!

There is no doubt that there is a serious requirement to downsize the Armed Forces and lateral exit points with career guarantee requires to be addressed!

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 29 Dec 2009 01:02

Ray sahab,

In the article on the blog, the words regular and support cadre refer to Permanent Commission (PC) and SSC respectively. It also mentions that the IA is looking to phase out the SSC in due time, with the PC having a minimum requirement of 20 years of service.

Apart from the fallacies you pointed out on the "teeth" and "tail" categorization, there is also the matter of ASC personnel serving in CI areas as combat troops. So where does one draw the line between PC-worthy cadre and not PC-worthy cadre??

Regarding gainful employment of SSC officers leaving service, I think that with increasing internal security duties, States will have to absorb personnel leaving the SSC into the armed police force either directly or through a budgetary contribution to the MHA for expanded Central Paramilitary forces. There could be a concurrent decrease in the direct recruitment for these forces, so that people who would have joined that stream make a different career choice early in life, as opposed to in their 30s. This way, we won't be spending resources training people twice - once for CPMF and once for the IA.

Ultimately, with an increasing youth bulge in search of employment and continuing internal security duties that suck up manpower, there seems to be no easy answer to this problem.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Dec 2009 01:05

Anoop

Good to see you active.

I will answer on email!

Have you not read the very book that you so kindly sent me and was such an eye opener to me?

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 29 Dec 2009 02:03

Ray sahab,

Look forward to your email. I did not read that book fully, I admit! I did go through some sections of it.

I am currently reading through the Lightening over Water article you posted. What struck me at first glance are the elaborate simulation tools the authors used to arrive at a realistic combat outcome. Extrapolating that to the Indian context seems doomed to failure, unless one has access to those same simulation tools. I'm still reading it to get a feel for the challenges that a light force faces in deployment.

Anoop

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 29 Dec 2009 07:33

RayC wrote:Service support should have officers of the same calibre as those of the combat arms since logistics is as important as operations. Without a good logistic support, no operations can be conducted successfully. As you will remember Musharraf came to grief in Kargil, even though he had an audacious plan, all because he did not bother to dot the ‘i’s and cross the ‘t’s as far as logistics is concerned. Along side there is the example of Siachen, which is a logistic war. Without high calibre service support personnel, it would be very difficult to sustain the operation in Siachen and make it cost efficient and operationally sustainable. Therefore, to my mind, I would not say that there should be lesser qualified officers in the service support. It is just that combat is more glamorous and hence, even in the Army, the service support people don’t get their due!
....

There is no doubt that there is a serious requirement to downsize the Armed Forces and lateral exit points with career guarantee requires to be addressed!

I agree completely that logistics is the most important part of any ops, as they say "dilletantes talk strategy, professionals talk logistics"! The reference to ASC is a question of details, the bigger picture is whether the services, that have a total officer strength of 60-70k (this is IA, plus more for IAF/IN), can keep spreading the "butter", both in terms of talent as well as perks so thin across so many...

The fact is that services as a calling is relevant to a small, and declining minority of our youth..For the rest, it is a career option, just like many others on the civvie street..

Its not just about support arms...Does the IA need each platoon or company commander to be in the same bracket of "elite" officers? To me, for a lot of the "less elite" kids, a career option in the IA which is 5 years commitment + 2 years paid study leave has a fair chance of being up there in their options list..

We can keep bemoaning the lack of commitment in today's youth, rank parities or disparities, and keep insisting that every single of the 30k officers "short" need to be a potential FM Sam Manekshaw in the making..Or we can smell the coffee and reorient given the realities and constraints...

A lot of countries, including most tellingly, Israel, make do with reservist officers and troops even for elite formations (paras)...I dont see why IA cannot make do with an expanded SSC cadre!