S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

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vina
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by vina »


"Not allow Indian per capita emissions to exceed that of western nations". That is not very hard, because winter heating needs are nearly negligible in India, and most developed nations are in the colder latitudes
Ah Mullah. You were just booted out from the Binori Madrassa and stripped off your Grand Mullah positions for quoting the wrong scriptures to the wrong folks.

Our Mulk ij very garam. Bhyphor to make it more garam ?. We need more thanda in garam dins.

Now phrom doosra-qanoon oph Dharam-o-dynamix , thanda needs work (kaam , not the Yindoo love but called in Inglees as work) . Since Kaam is a more ooncha form of Jinn Energy than Garmi , just like Arap is more ooncha than Mohajir, and just like 1 arap is equal to multiple mohajirs, 1 work equals mutliple garmis.

So net result, you need lot more Jinn Energy to get to comfortable temp of 25 degrees or so in garam mulk than it usually does to make thanda mulk to 25 degrees.

Temperate folks have an advantage here. As garam mulk beebul get more wealthy and they start buying airconditioners like Cheenis, then your math goes out of the khidki.

What we need is more ephhicient thanda takneeks.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Hari Seldon »

Hilarious doesn't even begin to describe this piece. Enjoy!

Mark Steyn: It's settled; climate circus was a fairy tale
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by enqyoob »

vinaji:

Running A/C units with Inverters using power bled off the grid into storage batteries, is an even worse thing. GOI could mandate that any sales of A/C units go with say, a 4 KW solar panel.


All the stuff about Higher Forms of Energy etc notwithstanding, heating bills in New Bilayat, Kufr-istan, are astronomical.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Sanjay M »

Journalist Complains China Sabotaged Copenhagen Talks

Tsk, tsk - Atlanticists won't appreciate seeing their awaited G2 partner China being savaged by undisciplined liberals who don't know how to toe the Atlanticist line.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Jarita »

Much as we all may bemoan the politics of Copenhagen, the fact remains that climate change is a reality and likely to damage our world significantly.
I do believe that India needs to adopt an energy policy that moves us away from fossil fuels for several reasons
- Environmental Imperative - Not just climate change impact but the health costs of pollution driven by fossil fuels. There are several reports that attempt to quantify the health impact which is more than tangible.
- Energy Independence - Does India even have a long term energy strategy? We desperately need to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels if we are to retain some modicum of independence in the long run. Powerful oil lobbies may not want that. BTW China has vast deposits of oil (exploration is on) in the Xingxiang province and potentially Tibet. Imagine the implications if the world does not migrate
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Shankk »

Suraj, I just wish that you had not mentioned the last sentence in your post.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Sanjay M »

I think India's #1 environmental concern is in worrying about looming water resource shortages and not in worrying about sea level rises. A rising sea level will screw up Bangladesh, not India. I don't even mind seeing W.Bengal commies having to swim and tread water to stay afloat.

I've heard that Global Warming changes would actually make the monsoon stronger, rather than weaker. I wouldn't mind that, although we saw the recent drought in Bihar, etc.

People have to move beyond worshipping cows and start worshipping cars and computers anyway.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by vera_k »

enqyoob wrote:All the stuff about Higher Forms of Energy etc notwithstanding, heating bills in New Bilayat, Kufr-istan, are astronomical.
A lot of this energy is being voluntarily spent on heating up air in homes that are larger than they need to be. People could live in ISI standard places - like their grandparents used to do in 1955 - and cut their bills in half.

Given the security scenario, elimination of the oil based economy should come first for India. Reduction in coal and gas based energy use would be second. Do Copenhagen type deals take this into account or are they simply distracting resources from focusing on the top priority?
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Pranav »

Jarita wrote:Much as we all may bemoan the politics of Copenhagen, the fact remains that climate change is a reality and likely to damage our world significantly.
"Climate change" has been a reality for millenia and it has nothing to do with human activities. Where did you get the idea that the global warming alarmism was anything other than a 400% fraud? Basically it is one more brick that the western oligarchs are trying to put in the New World Order edifice that they are building.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by enqyoob »

Do Copenhagen type deals take this into account or are they simply distracting resources from focusing on the top priority?
Good question, but I hope the answer is that in the short term, India has plenty of emissions reduction to be made in just cleaning up the coal-fired thermal plants, so again, taking credit for this at present, is good strategy. The situation is like saying:
I will clean up my room to have only 50% as much dust on the floor as I have today
This is good strategy for those who have not swept their rooms for the past 2 years, because a cleanup is long overdue. In fact a basic sweeping may achieve a 75% improvement, which puts me way ahead of the Target.

If you first clean up, and then next day you are forced to come up with a Dust Reduction Plan, things get much tougher. This is the beauty of MMS' unilateral promise.

This is the most important lesson I learned when I was exiled to a week-long Total Quality Management Leadership Short Course way back. The reward system rewards those who achieve PERCENTAGE improvements, and hence heavily rewards past incompetence, laziness etc. Those who conscientiously strive to stay as clean and efficient as possible always, get screwed.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by enqyoob »

Basically it is one more brick that the western oligarchs are trying to put in the New World Order edifice that they are building.
True, but for some people the effects are dramatic and undeniable. Several islands incl, the Maldives are becoming submarines in the next few years.

However, no amount of CO2 Reductions is going to save those, and if the intent is to save them, effort is much better spent on dredging the sea floor and building up their coastlines, like the Netherlands.

The melting of the north polar ice cap is another undeniable effect. The NorthWest Passage has opened up. Oil and gas mining wars are erupting on newly-exposed islands.

The death of the Kilimanjaro ice cap is a huge blow to the survival of communities in the watershed of that mountain. Similar problems are reported in the Himalayas. There may be innovative solutions to such issues, such as artificial ice dams at high altitude (spray water to freeze there, and build walls that keep more ice from sliding down to lower altitudes, hence cool the whole mountaintop substantially). There's an old Indian engineer demonstrating this in the Himalayas.

So I agree that there should be concerted action to adopt practical solutions.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by vera_k »

Enqyoob wrote:The reward system rewards those who achieve PERCENTAGE improvements, and hence heavily rewards past incompetence, laziness etc. Those who conscientiously strive to stay as clean and efficient as possible always, get screwed.
You said it. The trick then is in choosing when to go down this road. It would be far more affordable for India to start down this road after having been lazy and incompetent for a few more decades.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by enqyoob »

Why would you do that? Lack of infrastructure is driving away investment to China, where they are busy modernizing. Dirty coal plants and dirty autos are choking and poisoning the population, both urban and rural.

In the past 1,700,000 years I have seen quite a few turning points/ forks in the road that faced India. Esp. in past 60 years. Right now is another of those. Ride the wave and get over the obstacles and become a modern nation? Or catch down with Africa and Pakistan?

Indian economic recovery post 1990 went something like this:
1. Invite Foreign Investment at incredibly favorable terms to get over the lack of infrastructure and the political risk and the 19th century bureaucracy. See ENRON experience.
2. Sell off raw materials to generate cash.

Both of the above had terrible consequences for the exchange rate of the Rupee, and it was a race for the bottom.

3. The TCS/InfoSys miracle bloomed, esp. as the "Y2K" scam loomed, and blooming western economies hired lots of desi contract workers for software. Huge success in building first foreign exchange, and then vast reservoir of experience in doing projects all over the world, and in people comfortable working anywhere.

4. Outsourcing to India for India-based work. This is what really built B'lore and H'bad, and started the infrastructure boom.

5. Zooming land values paid initially with NRI-inflow cash, then with Arab petro-cash, then exploding due to Indians going deep into large debt, courtesy of freer and cheaper credit, based in turn on the certainty of land appreciation. The US Mortgage Bubble, magnified a thousand times. This gave a rocket boost to economic activity as the Indian Middle Class changed from scrimping and saving to put into Arab gold around their daughters' necks, to becoming free spenders living off land appreciation.

6. Foreign investment pouring in, seeing the Biggest Free Middle Class Spending Market. Hunting high and low for Indian companies to buy. Stock Market zooms, putting more cash, real or imagined, into the Consumer market.

7. Much more smokestack industry coming up, basically shifting the problem factories such as chemical, automobile assembly etc into India. There's a reason why Detroit, even at the height of the auto industry boom, was considered the pits to live, compared to say New Mexico, Arizona etc.

All of these have outpaced Quality of Life development, such as good poo-poo-places, roads, water quality, air quality, electric supply, and green areas. The clock is ticking. Without swift and major cleanup, wealth can leave India a lot faster than it came in. May be happening already with the Dubai bust, which has dampened construction, maybe to be followed by a real estate crash as the debt becomes unsustainable by property appreciation.

Other nations are quick to learn a lot of things from India, in terms of efficiency in cutting down per capita allocations of living space and convenience. So pretty soon, there will be hajaar other places that are better places to invest, unless India cleans up.

What will happen if India waits, say another 5 years?

Then the cut will have to be, to "25% below 2005" - to be done in, say 2014. Far tougher. Without these "Voluntary, Moderate and Enlightened" cuts, the UNFCCC will go with Oirope and slap tariffs on all nations not going by enforced quotas. Would you want to try to clean up industry at a time of crashing profit margins?
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Sanjay M »

Exactly - it's a race against time, a race against shifting goalposts. The longer we wait, the higher the bar will be raised against us.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Hari Seldon »

Great post by Sri N^3. However, as is moi wont, some nitpicks.
Zooming land values paid initially with NRI-inflow cash, then with Arab petro-cash, then exploding due to Indians going deep into large debt, courtesy of freer and cheaper credit, based in turn on the certainty of land appreciation. The US Mortgage Bubble, magnified a thousand times. This gave a rocket boost to economic activity as the Indian Middle Class changed from scrimping and saving to put into Arab gold around their daughters' necks, to becoming free spenders living off land appreciation.
Would mostly agree except that the US situ is not toto comparable with Desh's. IN Desh, Land is still something they don't make anymore of, so land price appreciation in real terms is not a loony assumption. Further, the nominal inflation rate in Desh has been regularly clocking 6-7%+ on the CPI front (and probably a few 100 basis points more in the asset markets), hence nominal value appreciation is another given, more or less.

Put 2 and 2 together and we have some reasonable grounds to believe our realty crashdown to reality won't be nearly as dramatic (and traumatic) as that in the khanate. We'll suffer multiple soft, small bubble bursts rather than a volcano burst as happened Dec'07 onwards in the khanlands. Recovery and rejuvenation after small bubble pops==much easier, manageable and non-governmental than the aftermath of a volcano burst, IMHO.
All of these have outpaced Quality of Life development, such as good poo-poo-places, roads, water quality, air quality, electric supply, and green areas. The clock is ticking. Without swift and major cleanup, wealth can leave India a lot faster than it came in. May be happening already with the Dubai bust, which has dampened construction, maybe to be followed by a real estate crash as the debt becomes unsustainable by property appreciation.
400% agree. Its not as if pre-liberalisation these things were plentiful but post-'91 the allocation of new investment veered further away from these essentials.
Other nations are quick to learn a lot of things from India, in terms of efficiency in cutting down per capita allocations of living space and convenience. So pretty soon, there will be hajaar other places that are better places to invest, unless India cleans up.
Philippines already doing a Banglore on Yindia in the lucrative (voice) BPO space.

But overall, the era where phoren capital did us favors by coming here may well be passing. Things have changed in this decade. The FRBM Act (2003) - the NDA sarkar's single-most important contribution to nation-building - ensured that in a few yrs (by 2005-06) the domestic savings rate had breached the 25% mark (it now exceeds 30%) and coupled with a historically better ROCE than PRC (we take some 4% of savings to generate 1% GDP growth compared to PRC's 5% average), Desh now generates most of the capital required for investment internally. Sure, we could always do with more and hence the specter of all our pujya mantris pulling out begging bowls and whine-fests at first opportunity on foreign shores.
Bottomline: - we're not as totally and desperately dependent on FDI as desis often like to think.

Overall, can't agree more than Desh better cleanup its act in its own interest, not merely because the west is holding a gun to our collective heads.

Jai Ho.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Pranav »

enqyoob wrote: True, but for some people the effects are dramatic and undeniable. Several islands incl, the Maldives are becoming submarines in the next few years.

However, no amount of CO2 Reductions is going to save those, and if the intent is to save them, effort is much better spent on dredging the sea floor and building up their coastlines, like the Netherlands.

The melting of the north polar ice cap is another undeniable effect. The NorthWest Passage has opened up. Oil and gas mining wars are erupting on newly-exposed islands.

The death of the Kilimanjaro ice cap is a huge blow to the survival of communities in the watershed of that mountain. Similar problems are reported in the Himalayas. There may be innovative solutions to such issues, such as artificial ice dams at high altitude (spray water to freeze there, and build walls that keep more ice from sliding down to lower altitudes, hence cool the whole mountaintop substantially). There's an old Indian engineer demonstrating this in the Himalayas.

So I agree that there should be concerted action to adopt practical solutions.
These sorts of claims are generally based on fraudulent data. There has been no increase in sea levels, and polar ice has been increasing, not decreasing. The northwest passage has also opened up in the past. The temperatures during the medieval warm period were much higher than they are today.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by V_Raman »

whether fraudulent or not, we need to reduce our oil dependency. even a temporary period of warming lasting 1 decade will be crippling for india.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by enqyoob »

I can't disagree that the data may be suspect (the proponents of the panic are certainly not above suspicion), and the trends may be within the uncertainty bounds, but the Pacific islands (Vanutu? Nauru?) and the Maldives seem to be very very worried and resigned to disappearance. Why if there is no real rise in sea level? Kilimanjaro and Himalayan glacier recession also appear to be based on harsh reality, and can't be attributed to false data. Of course, 3 good winters with massive storms may turn these around, I guess.

But Ramanji, why do you say that a warming trend for a decade would cripple India? Asking out of ignorance on this point. The editorials in the desi newspapers seem to be all hype and no help in understanding this.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by brihaspati »

Rising temperature in India does not necessarily mean disaster. It depends on the source of the rise, and exactly where it is rising. Geological records shows that it all depends on which part it is rising and the source.

If the rise is part of regular cycles linked to South Pacific circulations, then it may mean droughts because of weakening monsoon. But monsoon is weakening for a long time now anyway.India falls within the megadrought cycles of East Asia.

If rise is not due to El Nino patterns, then it can actually work in the opposite direction to counter aridity caused by falling temperatures in the sub-polar regions, especially north Atlantic.

Retreating glaciers could also be caused by weakening monsoon. It has been steadily doing so for the last 6-8,000 years. It appears decreasing, becausethere was a high point in the post-glacial period between 8-10,000 years.

For India, main concern is precipitation in the Himalayas and the Ghats and central ranges. Rise in temp is linked in a complicated way to this. Sea temprise, could be more than expected if the north Atlantic thermohaline pull weakens.That could mean some coastal area loss and severe storm damages.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by V_Raman »

a decade of erratic monsoon like this year will wreak havoc to food supply in india. global grain supplies are at bare minimum reserve levels (6 months from what i hear) and will be the case for years to come. if there is an extended drought like conditions, global food stocks are just not there. india will have starvation and social unrest.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Suraj »

India sees a really bad monsoon every 10 years or so. The last major shortfall in monsoon was in 1987, with smaller cases in 1995 and 2002. Then there were bad years in 1966 and 1975 . One year of bad monsoon is not sufficient data to make sweeping statements about future years.

Further, the correlation of monsoons to economic growth has fallen markedly, since agriculture only accounts for 17% of the overall economy, and less than half of rural GDP. Those who've lived through 1966 and 1987 drought years would have a better perspective on just how much worse things were then. For this year, GoI estimates around 7-7.5% GDP growth and foodgrain production little changed from last year despite a bad monsoon, due to excess rabi crop sowings driven partly by an enhanced minimum support price.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Mort Walker »

This is somewhat off-topic, but about 50% of food production, after harvesting, is lost due to spoilage from poor storage conditions and slow distribution, and pests. Cold storage requires energy and proper implementation as seen in the west takes time and money as well. India has been blessed with the most fertile soil for thousands of years. Historically, extreme food shortages have been caused by the colonialists and poor distribution.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Pranav »

enqyoob wrote:I can't disagree that the data may be suspect (the proponents of the panic are certainly not above suspicion), and the trends may be within the uncertainty bounds, but the Pacific islands (Vanutu? Nauru?) and the Maldives seem to be very very worried and resigned to disappearance. Why if there is no real rise in sea level? Kilimanjaro and Himalayan glacier recession also appear to be based on harsh reality, and can't be attributed to false data. Of course, 3 good winters with massive storms may turn these around, I guess.

But Ramanji, why do you say that a warming trend for a decade would cripple India? Asking out of ignorance on this point. The editorials in the desi newspapers seem to be all hype and no help in understanding this.
There is an increasing in erosion along coasts when dams stop the flow of silt, but no increase in sea level so far, AFAIK. As far as Kilimanjaro is concerned, there could be local anomalies, but global temperatures have been on a downward trend for the past ten years. It's more related to the sun, and the same trends can be observed even on Mars.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by brihaspati »

The climate models etc, should be taken in perspective. One of the great ways to cross-validate is with past geological records. Sea-core records from the Arabian sea, are in the public domian. Same are cave deposit rainfall estimates from Oman, and the Dandak caves in India. Further east, record from south central and east China are also available.

There are persistent centuries wide drought records in the whole of east and south Asia. We may very well be into one now or beginning one. However it is still not as dry as in the late 13-th to 14th century for India. Although past climates still managed to leave sufficient food for Indians, the situation could be difficult now because of population pressures.

The megadroughts appear to be globally devastating in at least one cycle of approximately 1500 years (roughly 1470). the last one, at least for India, appears to stretch from mid 600- mid 800. This roughly brings to the next one peaking around 2200. But the cycles are tempered by alot of different other cycles.

It is possible that China has already entered one of its classic megadroughts, and India need not lag behind.

As for deserts becoming wet, etc, there are plenty of geological proof for such things. However, it all depends roughly on how much moisture is available in the atmosphere. Typically cooling, when it locks up water into ice, there is general aridity. This was also the reason that ice-age and immediate post-glacial northern Indian plains were quite dry. So long term cooling may actually reduce rainfall in India.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Sanjay M »

New tactic from eco-activists:

Carbon Litigation
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by enqyoob »

Most of the Indian coast suffers erosion at least for the past 100 years, AFAIK. Which to me means rising sea level.

Pacific sea level data, however, tell a different story, as Pranav indicated.

A few places claim 1 mm/yr rise from instruments whose HOPED-FOR resolution is 1mm/yr, but others show 24mm/yr decline in sea level. Hard to look at those data and conclude that there is any rise in mean sea level.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Jarita »

^^^ Could the erosion be driven by thinning of the coastal mangroves?
That was cited as one of factors that exacerbated Tsunami impact
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by AnimeshP »

Brahma Chellaney's take on India @ Copenhagen ...

The India Climate-Change Calculus
Aligning with China only undermines New Delhi's negotiating position and costs its people dearly.
Past experience should have taught India that whenever it has joined hands with China on environmental issues, it has been let down by Beijing's proclivity to jettison principles in the ruthless pursuit of self-interest. Take the 1989 Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer: China teamed up with India in the negotiations, only to reverse its stance and agree to abide by the protocol if it were compensated for the compliance costs. India was forced to follow suit.

India not only aligned itself with the wrong group, but also it presented itself inadvertently as a major global polluter by making common cause with China, whose developmental path threatens to unleash a carbon tsunami on the world. After all, had the situation in Copenhagen been reversed—with India's per-capita emissions four times higher than China's, and with India in the line of international fire—would Beijing have helped provide New Delhi diplomatic cover?
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Yayavar »

I'm puzzled. It appears that post-Copenhagen the world is discovering that there is really no issue. It does not compute.....
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by sumishi »

viv wrote:
I'm puzzled. It appears that post-Copenhagen the world is discovering that there is really no issue. It does not compute.....
Of course it does compute. It was all a setup to impose global taxes citing carbon footprints and channel all moneys to the IMFs and the WBs, the financials of which have no democratic oversight. It was an international bureaucracy con game for more control over sovereign nations and their people. :|

"Will you walk into my parlour," said the spider to the fly ...
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by nithish »

BASIC Four to meet in Jan to firm up climate stand
The high-octane Copenhagen climate talks may have ended but global negotiations are going to get into a greater frenzy in 2010. To be on top of the game, the BASIC four countries — China, India, South Africa and Brazil — are going to meet in January itself to sort out common positions ahead of the frenzied formal talks that are bound to run through the year.

China has written to India requesting an early ministerial round of the BASIC countries, which emerged as the most influential alliance sealing the Copenhagen Accord along with the US and other developed economies.

Members of the BASIC group have expressed apprehensions that the next few rounds of meetings running through 2010 would be far more problematic and challenging than even the discordant Copenhagen round. They have warned that a greater level of cooperation would be required in the coming months to counter pressure from an angry Europe (which felt slighted at the Copenhagen talks) on one side, the resurgent and jubilant US administration (having steered the talks in its favour) on another and an upset fraternity of G77 countries completing the triangle.

-----

To add to the conundrum, the confusion over the status of the Copenhagen Accord has to be sorted out by January end. The hosts of the just-concluded talks, Denmark, will soon be formally requesting countries to indicate if they wish to be associated with the Copenhagen Accord. Under the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, the accord would have become a legally binding agreement only if all the 192 member countries had signed on to it. As four countries — Bolivia, Venezuela, Sudan and Tuvalu — refused to accept the accord it became a ‘noted’ document of the convention. It was decided that countries which wish to back it would be given time to sign on to it.

The meeting of the BASIC four will also help cement a common position on the accord and the procedural and larger implications of accepting it. The consultations at various levels would also be required with other G77 developing countries, many of whom have already expressed reservations about letting the accord become the template for future negotiations.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Yayavar »

sumishi wrote:
viv wrote:
I'm puzzled. It appears that post-Copenhagen the world is discovering that there is really no issue. It does not compute.....
Of course it does compute. It was all a setup to impose global taxes citing carbon footprints and channel all moneys to the IMFs and the WBs, the financials of which have no democratic oversight. It was an international bureaucracy con game for more control over sovereign nations and their people. :|

"Will you walk into my parlour," said the spider to the fly ...
I find it hard to agree that various scientists deliberately looked away because some 'western elites' expected to make more money - grants notwithstanding. The global warming, the recession of glaciers etc. have been in the news for the last 20 years if not more. The reality is somewhere between the fear scenarios and all is normal.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Gerard »

The Independent - March 2000
Snowfalls are now just a thing of the past
According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia,within a few years winter snowfall will become "a very rare and exciting event".

"Children just aren't going to know what snow is," he said.

The effects of snow-free winter in Britain are already becoming apparent. This year, for the first time ever, Hamleys, Britain's biggest toyshop, had no sledges on display in its Regent Street store. "It was a bit of a first," a spokesperson said.
The Telegraph - January 2010
Britain facing one of the coldest winters in 100 years, experts predict
Considerable amounts of “showery snow” is expected over Scotland and eastern England over the coming days, he said, whilst the rest of the United Kingdom would remains dry but very cold.

He added that temperatures in the Scottish highlands could dip to minus 16 degrees while even southern areas of England could see lows of minus 7.

The cold weather comes despite the Met Office’s long range forecast, published, in October, of a mild winter. That followed it’s earlier inaccurate prediction of a “barbecue summer”, which then saw heavy rainfall and the wettest July for almost 100 years.
sumishi
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by sumishi »

Gerard wrote:The Independent - March 2000
Snowfalls are now just a thing of the past
According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, ...
Ho! Mr Research scientist of University of East Anglia :(( , just wait for Climategate 9 years into the future :mrgreen:

Back to the future...
Pranav
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Pranav »

x-posted from Neta-Babu-Judiciary thread:

This article about the global warming fraud mentions some interesting laws regarding whistleblower rewards that should also be enacted in India.
Climategate: Michael Mann's very unhappy New Year
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/james ... -new-year/

By James Delingpole Politics Last updated: January 3rd, 2010

220 Comments Comment on this article

As I said yesterday, one of our jobs this year is to wipe the complacent smiles off the smug faces of the lobbyists, “experts”, “scientists”, politicians and activists pushing AGW.

This is why I am so glad to report that Michael Mann – creator of the incredible Hockey Stick curve and one of the scientists most heavily implicated in the Climategate scandal – is about to get a very nasty shock. When he turns up to work on Monday, he’ll find that all 27 of his colleagues at the Earth System Science Center at Penn State University have received a rather tempting email inviting them to blow the whistle on anyone they know who may have been fraudulently misusing federal grant funds for climate research.

Under US law, regardless of whether or not a prosecution results, the whistleblower stands to make very large sums of money: it is based on a percentage of the total government funds which have been misused, in this case perhaps as much as $50 million. (Hat tip: John O’Sullivan of the wonderful new campaigning site http://www.climategate.com)

Here’s that email in full:

Hi,

Greetings and best wishes for a prosperous New Year.

National Search
After the recent whistleblower revelations of emails between climate researchers and data from the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit, there are on-going investigations into potential fraudulent use of grant funds in Climate Research in the US. I am assisting interested parties who may have details of fraud in climate research to make contact with the proper authorities, and to share in the rewards paid when the funds are recovered.

Whistleblower Rewards Program
The federal government has established vigorous programs to identify and prosecute fraudulent grant applications and administration. The US Department of Justice (DOJ) administers the False Claims Act. It allows rewards for those who come forward with details of grant fraud to share in the recovery of federal funds. This reward can be as much as 30% of the total amount reclaimed. The program is almost completely reliant on insiders to report their knowledge of the fraud in their institutions.


Attorney Literally “Wrote the Book” on Fraud Recovery Lawsuits
Joel Hesch, Esq., of Hesch and Associates, literally wrote the book on how to report federal fraud. He has an extensive background in representing whistleblowers in all types of federal funding fraud cases, including Educational/ Research Grant Fraud. According to Mr Hesch: “Many institutions receive grants, whether for research or educational purposes. When they lie to get the grant or keep the grant or if they use the funds for purposes outside the grant, they are liable under the DOJ program. There have been many grant cases brought by whistleblowers. ”

If you know of anyone who might have details about fraudulent statements or actions by recipients of federal grant funds for climate research, please have them contact me immediately at the below email or cell phone. Alternatively, they may also contact Mr Hersch directly, and let him know that they were referred by me. All communications are completely confidential. They may want to consider using a third party email service (Yahoo, Hotmail, or other) instead of work email to communicate.

30% of $50 million is more than $12 million. Ask your friends to do the right thing, and be rewarded for doing it.
Our country, and in fact, the entire world is counting on someone to stand up and tell the truth about climate research. The effects of moving forward with taxes and policies based on fraudulent science could potentially cripple the US economy and cost lives and jobs for generations.

Look forward to hearing from you.

All the best

Kent Clizbe

Happy New Year, Climategaters.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Jarita »


Does not mean much. Climate change is likely to cause erratic weather patterns. Many factors beyond latitude and altitude influence weather including Ocean currents and ocean temps.
There could be a period of cooling in spots before actual warming takes place.
Fact of the matter is that sea levels are rising due to release of polar icecaps.
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by Yayavar »

sumishi wrote:The Independent - March 2000
Snowfalls are now just a thing of the past
According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, ...
Ho! Mr Research scientist of University of East Anglia :(( , just wait for Climategate 9 years into the future :mrgreen:

Back to the future...
Well, there was the coldest winter in 20yrs when I was in London in '90 after 7 snowless years. Global warming does not mean there cannot be climatic variations in different parts of the world. There seems to be a spate of 'no global warming' set of articles now, no CO2 effect, no this or that -- which is complete reversal from earlier. I still dont think it computes right ...if Himalayan glaciers are receding then there is global warming. The question is how much is man-made; iirc, I had read in National geographic that in the last 150 yrs the average temperature of the globe has gone up by 1.5 degrees. Need to find that and more details on how/what is this average.
ramana
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Re: S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

Post by ramana »

I think MMS stalled at Copenhagen and saved the future.
According to this expert

Copenhagen is a recipe for failure

And Climate change regulations in accords wont last as in future India and China wont accept rationally any punitive measures.
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