Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Austin]

^^ K.Subrahmanyam has already clarified on that aspect, if i'm not wrong.

As per media reports, the developement trials of Agni-3 are over and probably the next trial could be a user trial. Atleast we Indians are doing what we are saying - with increasing experience and simulation, the no. tests actually needed are coming down.

Well as long as these user trials are successful no one will dispute it but if they start tumbling from skies like Agni-2 then there will be eyebrows raised.

[kit]

The armed forces probably still have no clue whether the Indian nukes provide psycological or strategic deterrence if push comes to shove ! And honestly would china be deterred by an untested indian nuke ?

[ramana]

The armed forces probably still have no clue whether the Indian nukes provide psycological or strategic deterrence if push comes to shove ! And honestly would china be deterred by an untested indian nuke ?

As they become more propserous they could fear a untested TN.

[svinayak]

As they become more propserous they could fear a untested TN.

That is a good one.

[NRao]

The armed forces probably still have no clue whether the Indian nukes provide psycological or strategic deterrence if push comes to shove ! And honestly would china be deterred by an untested indian nuke ?

As they become more prosperous they could fear a untested TN.

Are the Chinese genetically immune to a non-TN by any chance?

[Marut]

An untested TN would mean they will have to guess the yield of a single warhead. This will need to be factored into their war games/plans on how much destruction will happen as and when India uses them. So the element of uncertainity/doubt will be at a higher level than for the non-TN warheads whose yields are more or less known and sort of confirmed. You can run permutations on how many non-TN can be used & their results with a higher degree of confidence than for TN.

The armed forces probably still have no clue whether the Indian nukes provide psycological or strategic deterrence if push comes to shove ! And honestly would china be deterred by an untested indian nuke ?

As they become more propserous they could fear a untested TN.

So I guess the way forward is to make China more prosperous and hence more vary of our untested TNs. Well, then more flied lice, melamine milk powder and lead paint toys for everyone.

[Gagan]

Or we could do a deal with them where they will tell us the actual yield of the warhead that went off when we fire that N tipped missile at them.

It might turn to this, since no GoI is going to test overtly any time soon. The only testing will be when nuclear war breaks out.

[Gagan]

So I guess the way forward is to make China more prosperous and hence more vary of our untested TNs. Well, then more flied lice, melamine milk powder and lead paint toys for everyone.

You folgot the fake anti malalial dlugs.

[Craig Alpert]

Crucial test for Agni-II and III in New Year
One of the key reasons identified for the failure of Agni II (night trial) is confirmed as a Production Issue..

[koti]

What is a production Issue?
Does this mean other systems(A2's already produced) maybe equally vulnerable to failure because of a particular subsystem?

[Rahul M]

What is a production Issue?
Does this mean other systems(A2's already produced) maybe equally vulnerable to failure because of a particular subsystem?

possibly. we can be fairly certain that those production samples have been triple checked by now.

[Rishirishi]

Crucial test for Agni-II and III in New Year
One of the key reasons identified for the failure of Agni II (night trial) is confirmed as a Production Issue..

Who actually mass produce the missile?

[sunny y]

Who actually mass produce the missile?

AFAIK Bharat Dynamics Limited

[Craig Alpert]

Crucial test for Agni-II and III in New Year
One of the key reasons identified for the failure of Agni II (night trial) is confirmed as a Production Issue..

Who actually mass produce the missile?

Parts come in from various vendors... BDL, BEL, DRDO, Midhani, Godhrej, and many other small start ups... The problem is when the things are transitioning from a LIMITED variants into full blown Production, there is a disconnect in the QA (quality assurance) testing as DRDO cannot babysit every little thing.. Hence it is the job of the QA inspector to ENSURE that parts are 100% safe and meet the standards as in the Limited versions..

SPECULATION ALERT ON many times in India, people (especially small companies) bribe to get the contracts in their favor and sometimes it is due to this loop hole (which occurs in other countries as well) there are issues every now and then in the Quality Assurance. SPECULATION ALERT OFF

[Sagar G]

The nag missile's seeker is an indigenous one or of foreign origin

Have read conflicting reports regarding it hence asking this question.

[vasu_ray]

Hence it is the job of the QA inspector to ENSURE that parts are 100% safe and meet the standards as in the Limited versions..

QA Managers are a harassed lot in PSUs already neck deep in delivering production volumes by deadlines, the upper management is typically biased towards meeting production goals, in high tech/precision products, this strategy backfires.

[SaiK]

Process driven QA initiatives should not let any feeling of harassment if the job done is per requirement specifications under a well defined set of scope and planned schedule.

[Rishirishi]

SPECULATION ALERT ON many times in India, people (especially small companies) bribe to get the contracts in their favor and sometimes it is due to this loop hole (which occurs in other countries as well) there are issues every now and then in the Quality Assurance. SPECULATION ALERT OFF

Just my thoughts as well. Most probably the manufacturing instructions / material used has been substandard. Goventment PSU's are notorius for producing substandard stuff. From scoters, hotels, airliners etc.

[Rishirishi]

Hence it is the job of the QA inspector to ENSURE that parts are 100% safe and meet the standards as in the Limited versions..

QA Managers are a harassed lot in PSUs already neck deep in delivering production volumes by deadlines, the upper management is typically biased towards meeting production goals, in high tech/precision products, this strategy backfires.

I think part of the explanation lies in the lack of good vocational training. In Germany a plumber, mechanic, or electrition has to be follow an elaborate programme of training. First 3 years of vocational training, then 2 years of apprentership, under a "skill master". Finally the person is given a practical task to prove his/her skill. Finally the person is awarded a certificate. Even the cleanres have to undergo training.
The person takes pride in his job and is respected.
While I stayed in a hotel in India, I had problems with the hot water tank. An "electrition" came in to fix it. I would call him a self thought unprofessional. His skilles of wireing and mounting was just way below standards. When he left the gyser was not placed in level, he had made large holes and the work was just horrible.
I suspect the manufacturing sector has to do with an untrained workforce. An engineer may be good at the design board, but he is not trained for parctical cabling.

[vasu_ray]

we are going OT,

process driven methodologies require correct work force levels,

PSUs have a lesser percentage of delivering personnel
private companies scrooge on hiring enough people

on vocational training I think we have more engineering colleges than ITIs, quality ITIs are even less as are really equipped ones, in general folks in these trades are dirt poor and learn by practice than by listening to 'lectures', making this education 'free' ala German style would help and entry should be enabled from class 7 (did you notice kids manning roadside air compressors)

hopefully, on the job training alleviates the quality problem to some more extent, the unions are more into politics than welfare issues

and then the theme of pride in one's work that's more a culture challenge, to start with at the least they should be provided with correct work gear only few big companies have anything close to this an example would be, so many trucks ply Indian roads never have I come across one with a fork lift

[Rahul M]

I think part of the explanation lies in the lack of good vocational training. In Germany a plumber, mechanic, or electrition has to be follow an elaborate programme of training. First 3 years of vocational training, then 2 years of apprentership, under a "skill master". Finally the person is given a practical task to prove his/her skill. Finally the person is awarded a certificate. Even the cleanres have to undergo training.
The person takes pride in his job and is respected.
While I stayed in a hotel in India, I had problems with the hot water tank. An "electrition" came in to fix it. I would call him a self thought unprofessional. His skilles of wireing and mounting was just way below standards. When he left the gyser was not placed in level, he had made large holes and the work was just horrible.
I suspect the manufacturing sector has to do with an untrained workforce. An engineer may be good at the design board, but he is not trained for parctical cabling.

not true at all. you are doing a gross mistake of thinking that a industry technician gets the same level of training as your neighbourhood one.
all industry technicians need to hold vocational degrees in their trade to get jobs in the industry. to get an idea get hold of the jobs page of the nearest english daily and look up the required qualification for technician jobs. competition to be enrolled at these vocational courses is fierce and in many places candidates have to show proof of prior work experience at trainee level to be considered in the first place.
forget industry, even large housing complexes and offices do not employ unqualified people.

[brihaspati]

If subsystems/components fail on pre-trial inspection, how strong are the penalties? Or are there binding commitments to accept subproducts, so that even if they fail on inspection/trial the supplier is not really penalized? In sensitive productions, typically there appears to be binding contracts that guard for losses of either parties because of security reasons, the tight community of producers, and hence mutual dependency. In many contracts I have seen, inclusion of financial and next-order penalty clauses actually improved QA, even if its a tight and mutually dependent community. We had modeled this once, and it is indeed more efficient than those without such clauses.

[Sagar G]

To all Gurus here, please answer this trainee's nadaan question too

The nag missile's seeker is an indigenous one or of foreign origin

[Rahul M]

To all Gurus here, please answer this trainee's nadaan question too

The nag missile's seeker is an indigenous one or of foreign origin

french for the moment IIRC, work on desi seeker is on-going. check the aero India thread in archives.

[Sagar G]

french for the moment IIRC, work on desi seeker is on-going. check the aero India thread in archives.

Found about it in the aero india thread but it doesn't mention about the country of origin. A bit disappointed, I thought that we are using desi one as info about it was published in techfocusfeb 2003 so I thought that it must have been developed by now.

Any idea saar that when the desi one will be completely developed

[Ankit Desai]

BrahMos phase II: Deadline for land set

Last week, the government held a meeting and assured that necessary land will be found for the Airports Authority of India (AAI) by March 31. We hope everything will go smoothly,’’

BATL CEO and managing director and DRDO chief controller (R&D) Dr A. Sivathanu Pillai said

Ankit

[nishug]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=12146
What the hell is this ?

Steps are being taken to modify the BrahMos missile to be used both by the Air Force and Army, Dr Siva Thanu Pillai, Chief Controller (R&D , Defence Research and Development Organisation said here today.

Brahmos still needs to be modified ???? It is not ready today for induction in army ?

[Nihat]

Very likely case of DDM-ites , Brahmos land version was successfully tested twice not once and a certain official at the time was quoted as saying that they have confidence in the missile and will start inducting it soon.

I'll try and dig out that article.

[Rahul M]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=12146
What the hell is this ?

Steps are being taken to modify the BrahMos missile to be used both by the Air Force and Army, Dr Siva Thanu Pillai, Chief Controller (R&D , Defence Research and Development Organisation said here today.

'this' is called DDM-itis, a frequent malaise that ails Indian media when monkeys with keyboards do defence reporting for them.

they are talking about the improved brahmos for army which was tested (first test failed, 2nd test successful. both very demanding tests) early last year i.e 2009.

the original land-attack version of brahmos has been inducted long back.
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/02/15/stor ... 230400.htm

The missile was inducted into the Army’s 861 Missile Regiment in June 2007.

[Kanson]

India readies 'satellite killer'

"India is putting together building blocks of technology that could be used to neutralise enemy satellites," Defence Research and Development Organisation Director General V K Saraswat told reporters on the sidelines of the 97th Indian Science Congress.

However, he added that the defence scientists have not planned any tests but have started planning such technology which could be used to leapfrog to build a weapon in case the country needed it.

[Singha]

I was about to post the same article. good baring of long yellowed fangs here.

the current ABM radar used by PAD is said to be capable to 1000km range. so it should be easily able to target LEO (150km) and MEO/Polar (550km) type satellites. even the APAR type naval radars are able to track satellites per reports, which isnt surprising given future aster30-tbmd plans and the SPY3/SM4 will be there too.

but we will need a good network of these radars on tatra trailers to provide advance warning
and prime up the interceptor missiles. for a satellite coming over india from the north, best to
detect it from a mountain-top radar when its over CAR and ready up the missile shooters down south and in central india.

if we can target the IMINT and EW sats in MEO, that will break the enemy's back.

[vavinash]

The swordfish radar I thought had a range of 650 km. The swordfish-2 for Ad-1 and 2 was supposed to have a range exceeding 1000km, right?

[Vinito]

India readies 'satellite killer'

"India is putting together building blocks of technology that could be used to neutralise enemy satellites," Defence Research and Development Organisation Director General V K Saraswat told reporters on the sidelines of the 97th Indian Science Congress.

However, he added that the defence scientists have not planned any tests but have started planning such technology which could be used to leapfrog to build a weapon in case the country needed it.

Wont the US of A and other countries raise concerns around this statement as everyone including the GOI has been against the supposed "weaponisation of space" when the Chinese tested their ASAT and now we are also making statements like this?

[ramana]

It means GOI has decided its going to happen anyway and better be prepared for it.


Besides he is talking of building blocks only.

[Rahul M]

Wont the US of A and other countries raise concerns around this statement as everyone including the GOI has been against the supposed "weaponisation of space" when the Chinese tested their ASAT and now we are also making statements like this?

technically speaking, this is not weaponisation of space, which refers to weapons placed in orbit which can be used to targets on earth.

[VijayKumarSinha]

I don't know if this has already been posted:

Air-launched BRAHMOS to be test-fired in Dec-2010

I would also like to thank the BRAHMOS corporation for revealing my email address to hundreds of other people, through the newsletter by not putting it in the BCC option.

Thank You, Brahmos! Thank You!

I will now go and spam the over 360 email addresses that I received!

[hnair]

Wont the US of A and other countries raise concerns around this statement as everyone including the GOI has been against the supposed "weaponisation of space" when the Chinese tested their ASAT and now we are also making statements like this?

technically speaking, this is not weaponisation of space, which refers to weapons placed in orbit which can be used to targets on earth.

If we test, it shall be a "technology demonstrator" of the "Peaceful Satellite Killer".

Kind of like that Aegis-SM3 launch to pop the septic tank of junk satellites, so that "environment will be saved" from a few grams of burned out hydrazine

[nsarma]

"BrahMos missile to be inducted into Air Force in 2012 " - ToI news.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 416420.cms

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The country's prestigious 'BrahMos' missile would be inducted into the Air Force in 2012 that would ensure all the three wings

of the military are equipped with the supersonic cruise missile, a top defence official said on Wednesday.

"We have developed the airborne missile part, and process of integrating it with the aircraft 'Sukhoi' was progressing", BrahMos Aerospace Ltd CMD A Shivathanu Pillai said at the BrahMos Aerospace's facility here.

Trial run of airborne BrahMos missile would be held next year and the target was to integrate it with the aircraft in 2012, he said.

As far as integration of the missile was concerned, the original designers of the aircraft were also involved, he said.

"We are working with them (Sukhoi). Some changes are necessary and once the alteration is identified, we will introduce the same in the aircraft," Pillai said.

With that, all the three wings of Indian military -- Air Force, Navy and Army -- would have the supersonic missile 'BrahMos', he said.

Development of a new version of BrahMos missile, involving a technology that would discriminate the target and attack, in 2009 was a major achievement, he added.

Three flights on the new version had proved successful and the army would be inducting two more of this version shortly, Pillai said.

On the next generation cruise missile, he said hypersonic BrahMos missile was in design stage.

[bodhi]

I don't know if this has already been posted:

Air-launched BRAHMOS to be test-fired in Dec-2010

The article says that the 2 acs to be sent back will have to be strengthened to carry the missile underbelly.

So all the MKIs or MKIs assigned to squadrons to deliver Brahmos have to undego this process? This would mean an extra cost. Was this a part of the deal earlier?

[Gagan]

The Air launched Brahmos weighs ~ 2 tons approx.
Can the MKI's landing gear stand the aircraft landing back with a brahmos strapped underneath?

I think the strengthening refers to the landing gear too.