Indian Space Program Discussion

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 23 Dec 2009 14:35

Article claims that GAGAN is almost ready (still not !?)

This is where the AAI’s ambitious GPS-aided Geo Augmented Navigation (GAGAN), jointly developed by the Indian Space Research Organisation, comes into play. It will allow for better precision with the GPS-based aircraft position and will allow closer routes and enhanced capacity.

“GAGAN is in the final operation phase and requires some certifications,” he said. "We will also need to connect all ground stations before it can be launched.”

Didnt Raytheon complete the tests way back in 2006 ?

Airports Authority of India approved the project in 2008 Sep and it is yet to provide any practical benefits..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Dec 2009 15:58

Kailash, that was the ground segment that was tested. GAGAN also needs a transponder on a geo satellite. India has setup ionospheric monitoring stations (INRES, Indian Reference Stations) at various locations, besides a Master Control Centre (INMCC) and an Uplinking Station (INLUS) Raytheon built the INRES. A simulated test of the ground segment was performed followed by a user-level integration test using an INMARSAT navigation transponder hired for about a year. Extensive ionospheric studies have been and are being conducted to create a model. The equatorial region introduces a large anomaly in GPS data and a model needs to be built to correct the ionospheric propagation delay. The Indian GAGAN receiver that will be carried on-board aircraft has been flight tested and certified. GAGAN Airport Reference Points have been established for several Indian airports. These precise fixed points on the runway help formulate the approach procdures for the aircraft. The procedures are being tested using the GAGAN receiver on a test a/c. Now, GAGAN is waiting for the India-built transponder to be flown aboard GSAT-8 shortly. GAGAN will be operational by 2010 or 2011.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 23 Dec 2009 18:08

Kailash wrote:Article claims that GAGAN is almost ready (still not !?)

This is where the AAI’s ambitious GPS-aided Geo Augmented Navigation (GAGAN), jointly developed by the Indian Space Research Organisation, comes into play. It will allow for better precision with the GPS-based aircraft position and will allow closer routes and enhanced capacity.

“GAGAN is in the final operation phase and requires some certifications,” he said. "We will also need to connect all ground stations before it can be launched.”
Didnt Raytheon complete the tests way back in 2006 ?

Airports Authority of India approved the project in 2008 Sep and it is yet to provide any practical benefits..

All satellites require extensive tests before launch and some time after launch to be certified to enter formal service. The service provider and the satellite-manufacturer will test if everything is going as planned and that there are no anomalies.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 23 Dec 2009 18:57

SSridhar wrote:Kailash, that was the ground segment that was tested. GAGAN also needs a transponder on a geo satellite. India has setup ionospheric monitoring stations (INRES, Indian Reference Stations) at various locations, besides a Master Control Centre (INMCC) and an Uplinking Station (INLUS) Raytheon built the INRES. A simulated test of the ground segment was performed followed by a user-level integration test using an INMARSAT navigation transponder hired for about a year. Extensive ionospheric studies have been and are being conducted to create a model. The equatorial region introduces a large anomaly in GPS data and a model needs to be built to correct the ionospheric propagation delay. The Indian GAGAN receiver that will be carried on-board aircraft has been flight tested and certified. GAGAN Airport Reference Points have been established for several Indian airports. These precise fixed points on the runway help formulate the approach procdures for the aircraft. The procedures are being tested using the GAGAN receiver on a test a/c. Now, GAGAN is waiting for the India-built transponder to be flown aboard GSAT-8 shortly. GAGAN will be operational by 2010 or 2011.

Shouldn't that be GSAT4 on the next GSLV flight (GSLV MkII)?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 23 Dec 2009 21:34

Russia to help India build manned spaceship.

Russia will help India build a domestic manned spaceship by 2020, sharing the technology used in developing Soyuz spacecraft, a senior official said today.

"The Indian side intends to use the experience of building the manned spaceship Soyuz to advance in building their own spaceship. We will build this spaceship on a similar technical scheme, but it will not resemble Soyuz," he said.

Chief of the department of piloted programmes of the federal space agency (Roskosmos) Alexei Krasnov told Itar-Tass news agency that the Soyuz is heavier and cannot be launched by a light Indian booster.

"These plans are outlined until 2020," he said.

President and designer general of the Russian Aerospace Corporation Energia Vitaly Lopota said the corporation's specialists "possess all space technologies," which they can share with Indian partners.

"With Roskosmos's appropriate support, we will be able to reequip technically and increase the production of the spaceship Soyuz," he noted.

New spaceship Soyuz can also be used for the spaceflights of the first Indian astronauts. This issue has already been discussed with India, Krasnov said.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 23 Dec 2009 21:52

Russia will help India build a domestic manned spaceship by 2020, sharing the technology used in developing Soyuz spacecraft, a senior official said today.

We need Russian help to accomplish this by 2020? Is there an error in the report? Help would mean accomplishing this before 2015. 2020 means that Russia will delay Indian efforts in manned space flight.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 23 Dec 2009 22:03

Vivek K wrote: We need Russian help to accomplish this by 2020? Is there an error in the report? Help would mean accomplishing this before 2015. 2020 means that Russia will delay Indian efforts in manned space flight.

The 2015 date was always considered unrealistic considering that the government had yet to approve the funding and given ISRO's record of not delivering on time. The 2020 date is more of a deadline that ISRO has set to itself rather than the actual launch date. I would personally put the date at 2017-18 if the funding is approved in the next-fiscal budget.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 23 Dec 2009 22:08

We're always stuck on the same record - not enough funding as the excuse for anything and everything. ISRO showed the world how the frontier of space could be conquered on a shoe string budget. Also, this report seems to state that the budget was increased and a manned mission was planned in 2015 with a manned mission to the moon by 2020. Have the facts changed since then?

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 23 Dec 2009 22:24

Vivek K wrote:We're always stuck on the same record - not enough funding as the excuse for anything and everything. ISRO showed the world how the frontier of space could be conquered on a shoe string budget. Also, this report seems to state that the budget was increased and a manned mission was planned in 2015 with a manned mission to the moon by 2020. Have the facts changed since then?

2020 for a manned lunar mission is more than unrealistic. According to ISRO preliminary plans for manned lunar mission, the layout will be similar to the Apollo program ie lander + crew vehicle. Even if we consider that India will send a single person on such a mission ISRO will require a launch vehicle capable of sending at least 75 tons to LEO to do it in one go OR 40 tons to LEO with 2 launches. ISRO presently doesn't even have 1/10th that capability.

According to ISRO's plans it's only choice would be a super-heavy derivative of the UMLV family which itself would enter service only by 2025 at the earliest. So, a manned lunar mission will only be feasible after 2025 (more likely 2030).

ISRO's present focus is on LEO-human spaceflight and is rightly so although I have my doubts over GSLV being an ideal crew-launch vehicle.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 24 Dec 2009 00:17

Article claims that GAGAN is almost ready (still not !?)

The article's author only had two sources: an AAI spokesman and a "senior" ATC who "wished not to be identified."

“Only about 45 per cent of aircraft operating from IGIA had the system on board," said a senior air traffic controller (ATC), who didn't wish to be identified.
“While most aircraft of scheduled airlines have the system, the same is not true of the small aircraft and chartered flights. As a result, we had to constantly shuttle between the old ground-based system and PBNS. This only caused more delays.” An AAI spokesman confirmed the system had been “pushed back” in Delhi.

AND its not even clear which source believes the GAGAN is in the "final" stages. The author should have tried to get a statement from an ISRO spokesperson before publishing the article.

This is where the AAI’s ambitious GPS-aided Geo Augmented Navigation (GAGAN), jointly developed by the Indian Space Research Organisation, comes into play. It will allow for better precision with the GPS-based aircraft position and will allow closer routes and enhanced capacity.

“GAGAN is in the final operation phase and requires some certifications,” he said. "We will also need to connect all ground stations before it can be launched.”

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 24 Dec 2009 02:27

KrishG wrote:
Vivek K wrote:We're always stuck on the same record - not enough funding as the excuse for anything and everything. ISRO showed the world how the frontier of space could be conquered on a shoe string budget. Also, this report seems to state that the budget was increased and a manned mission was planned in 2015 with a manned mission to the moon by 2020. Have the facts changed since then?
2020 for a manned lunar mission is more than unrealistic. According to ISRO preliminary plans for manned lunar mission, the layout will be similar to the Apollo program ie lander + crew vehicle. Even if we consider that India will send a single person on such a mission ISRO will require a launch vehicle capable of sending at least 75 tons to LEO to do it in one go OR 40 tons to LEO with 2 launches. ISRO presently doesn't even have 1/10th that capability.

According to ISRO's plans it's only choice would be a super-heavy derivative of the UMLV family which itself would enter service only by 2025 at the earliest. So, a manned lunar mission will only be feasible after 2025 (more likely 2030).

ISRO's present focus is on LEO-human spaceflight and is rightly so although I have my doubts over GSLV being an ideal crew-launch vehicle.

No big deal - the Moon's not going anywhere, and neither is NASA's moon program either.
The Chinese will likely beat us to the Moon, and probably the Russians too.

I think robots would accomplish a lot more there than human beings for quite some time anyway.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Dec 2009 02:35

[grab another chai biscoot]Slurp!! Nothing is going anywhere![/complete chai biscoot and start looking for another one]

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 24 Dec 2009 07:50

Here's Adimurthy's speech on ISRO's activities at the 60th International Astronautical Congress held in Daejeon, Korea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEEWy7xhLus#t=15m50s

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Dec 2009 09:59

Russia to help India build manned spaceship

New Delhi had asked Moscow to share with it the technologies to build a manned spacecraft and take an Indian astronaut aboard a Soyuz, chief of the Piloted Programmes of Roskosmos Alexei Krasnov told reporters on Wednesday.

The spaceship would be modelled after the Soyuz craft, but it would be smaller to match the lighter Indian boosters.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 25 Dec 2009 10:16

Vivek K wrote:[grab another chai biscoot]Slurp!! Nothing is going anywhere![/complete chai biscoot and start looking for another one]

If India comes out with a hypersonic transport, I would feel much better and much prouder, in comparison to seeing an Indian on the Moon.

The fact is that Moon will not be a significant strategic resource until the latter part of this century. It certainly won't be very accessible for the early part of it. Let others burn themselves out wasting valuable resources on charging at windmills, while we wait for ambient levels of technology to reach a tipping point where the heavens open themselves up to us.

The Chinese are just that kind of big-state-schemes type of state to waste all their money on stampeding towards some foolish endeavour, just like a One Child Policy. Let them do it, and reap the consequences of their own folly and groupthink.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 25 Dec 2009 23:06

Assuming that the Phalcon radar or the RAW's ARC aircraft can pick up cell phone tower signals, sat phone signals from quite a distance say cities in TSP, and DRDO is also developing its own version of AEW, can a constellation of LEO capable of ELINT be deployed for the same covering our immediate neighborhood?

NRSA or likes do the sat down link, Defense services or RAW can take care of decrypting mil communications, CDAC develops the multi lingual speech to text translation, NTRO does the pattern matching

if only tax collection was efficient..., if only managing corruption was efficient...

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 28 Dec 2009 04:22

Any updates on the Avatar ?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Dec 2009 05:37

Sanjay M, the report says the Russia will "help" India in manned space flight to get it done by 2020. If that is true then to a layman it sounds like people in ISRO will have a nice Chai Biscoot session for 11 years!!! My question is - If Russia helps India then why can we not send a manned flight next year?

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 28 Dec 2009 08:00

The Soyuz Re-entry Module + Service Module are 5.5 tons, base diameter = 2.7 m. If ISRO does not like innovation, they could easily put the Soyuz Spacecraft sans Orbital Module on a GSLV-2 (with a hypergolic third stage).

Why are Indians afraid of failure when pursuing something they have never done before? A child cannot walk until it learns to crawl and stumble. Mistakes are unacceptable only if you keep on repeating them, as opposed to learning from them.

Whether we are talking about the LCA, Arjun, Agni program, TN warhead, INSAS etc.. it is always the same story- Why do Indians expect underfunded and internally sabotaged programs to reach milestones on time? It is simultaneously comical and tragic to watch.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 28 Dec 2009 08:16

It's because this isn't being done to advance the nation's interests; it's being done CCCP-ishtyle, to give Sonia & Co something to crow about in regards to how The Family is always leading the nation to higher ground. Then they can inaugurate Rajiv Gandhi Space Centre.

disha · Post by **disha** » 28 Dec 2009 09:32

ss_roy wrote:The Soyuz Re-entry Module + Service Module are 5.5 tons, base diameter = 2.7 m. If ISRO does not like innovation ...

They could do what you say, but they do not want to. Any reasons? I can think of trying to learn something while minimizing variables and ensuring safety. Talking about innovation, space is a risky venture and if Chandrayaan-I was not innovative, what was innovative? Wasn't C-I ISRO's brainchild?

Why are Indians afraid of failure when pursuing something they have never done before?

Umm let's see how the parliament will behave when one or two gaganviharins will loose their lifes because of the bolt attaching the last stage of GSLV could not come in time, that among several thousand sequences and variables that has to come in place in few minutes. Remember NASA is loosing almost an astronaut a year on its Space shuttle program and for innovation the are going back to designs orginating in 1950s and 60s. That is 5 decades back. And yes NASA followed by Soviets have the most experience in manned space program.

Whether we are talking about the LCA, Arjun, Agni program, TN warhead, INSAS etc.. it is always the same story- Why do Indians expect underfunded and internally sabotaged programs to reach milestones on time? It is simultaneously comical and tragic to watch.

It is that because the need of the day is for a better water, sanitation, education etc to the Aam Admi. It is remarkable that such feats have been pulled by the same damn non-innovative Indians inspite of the constant challenge on priorities. Case in point, Brazil - it has better HDI than India but is a zero when it comes to space. Have you wondered why? I surmise that the technocrat Indian has to justify the cost and benefit at every step of the way. Somethimes it is annoying when a technocrat is made to do that, sometimes it is just plain wrong to ask for results, but at the same time such questions do bring the best out of the technocrat. Compare LCA with Gripen for eg.

Sanjay M wrote:It's because this is't being done to advance the nation's interests; it's being done CCCP-ishtyle, to give Sonia & Co something to crow about in regards to how The Family is always leading the nation to higher ground. Then they can inaugurate Rajiv Gandhi Space Centre.

This is classic R&Dh (Rona & Dhona) (tm)

disha · Post by **disha** » 28 Dec 2009 09:48

Vivek K wrote:... like people in ISRO will have a nice Chai Biscoot session for 11 years!!!

Why not? Where is space going away? Into deeper space? A manned space flight does not mean just put a man (or woman) on top of a rocket and light its behind. It means more than that, for example how will you design a space suit that can withstand drop in pressure in the vehicle? How will you design a komode that can be unisex and work in zero gravity? What food will you design and how will you serve it (in zero gravity)? How are going to come up with a cheaper alternative compared to NASA where there is a specialized one of a kind glue gun costing several thousand dollars? All of this takes time.

If every kg of mass is going to cost 10000 dollars, every gm saved saves 10 dollars. It could be an efficient cooling unit or a water recycling plant. Certain things have to happen before a space capsule is launched. It is akin to launching a model vs. launching a product (eg. nano, launched in 2008/2009 and mass produced only in 2010). First man on moon bragging rights is already taken. There is no point in racing towards moon. If you want to join a space race - race towards Mars and for that a whole new infrastructure has to come up even before a space race starts. For India, the goal should be a sustainable habitat on Moon. Moon has minerals and it is not necessarily gold one is mining for. So let ISRO babus have lot of chai-biskoot sessions. Space is not going anywhere.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Dec 2009 10:01

disha wrote:
Vivek K wrote:... like people in ISRO will have a nice Chai Biscoot session for 11 years!!!
Why not? Where is space going away? Into deeper space? A manned space flight does not mean just put a man (or woman) on top of a rocket and light its behind. It means more than that, for example how will you design a space suit that can withstand drop in pressure in the vehicle? How will you design a komode that can be unisex and work in zero gravity? What food will you design and how will you serve it (in zero gravity)? How are going to come up with a cheaper alternative compared to NASA where there is a specialized one of a kind glue gun costing several thousand dollars? All of this takes time.

Errr.........I thought that's why we needed "help" in the first place. So you mean the "help" will take 11 years? And so how long would it take without the "help" since space isn't going anywhere!

disha · Post by **disha** » 28 Dec 2009 10:18

Vivek K wrote:Errr.........I thought that's why we needed "help" in the first place. So you mean the "help" will take 11 years? And so how long would it take without the "help" since space isn't going anywhere!

I could be easily condescending on you, but will resist

Read up on how long the cryogenic technology took us to master (Hint: it is still not mastered yet) and the "help" in its process started in early 90s. That is way back 20 years. In fact some of the babus who signed those papers and the engineers who came up with the design of the infrastructure are way retired now. Human spaceflight is in the realm of cryogenic technologies in terms of complexity, so go figure.

If you are so critical of ISRO, criticize constructively. Like why are they not considering submariners for first astronauts? The conditions on a confined space craft are similiar to a submarine.

Added later: We need help because we may want to solve the chicken/egg problem. In some aspect you want to build up a technology initially so that other things riding on it can proceed. Once there is confidence on those other things, one can move the technology more ahead. Case in point work on RLV going in parallel to Soyuz kind of capsules. Maybe ISRO is not interested in pursuing Soyuz kind technology 50 years hence and would like to use RLV, but then RLV has not arrived! So one hedges the bets by learning to master one technology from an existing player for "short" term while working on the long term.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 28 Dec 2009 10:28

Vivek, he makes a legitimate point that Space isn't going anywhere. We still need to maintain the pursuit of human progress obviously, but this could also be done by first pursuing more relevant earthly programs such as hypersonic intercontinental transit, which would provide much more immediate benefits to the world economy by allowing people to cross the globe much more conveniently. This technology could itself then serve as a stepping stone to easier access to orbit and to space travel, before long. You've got to walk before you can run. I'm in favour of earthly rapid transit solutions first, and these will then facilitate our move outward into space.

Rapid intercontinental travel would be a great advantage in the competitive global economy, and those who can achieve it and offer it would then be able to help re-shape the world, preferably in their own favour. Imagine how many business opportunities we could pursue through hypersonic transportation -- especially if there weren't many competitors in this field. To me, this dwarfs the immediate economic benefits of space. And don't forget, hypersonics could be a stepping stone to convenient space access.

We should focus our efforts in conjunction with international partners, whether the Europeans, the Russians, the Japanese, etc. I believe that development of hypersonic transport is a challenge that's probably too big for one country, and so partnership in this pursuit would be crucial, in order to share the burden. India just doesn't have enough aerospace experience on its own, and the fact is that even experienced aeronautical power would find development of hypersonic transport challenging.

And again, space isn't going anywhere. It's not fleeting or temporary - but real-world business opportunities are.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 28 Dec 2009 10:43

disha wrote:
Sanjay M wrote:It's because this is't being done to advance the nation's interests; it's being done CCCP-ishtyle, to give Sonia & Co something to crow about in regards to how The Family is always leading the nation to higher ground. Then they can inaugurate Rajiv Gandhi Space Centre.
This is classic R&Dh (Rona & Dhona) (tm)

No it isn't, man. Everytime I see how ISRO is used by the decaying political establishment to prop up their dying carcasses, it makes me wince.
I especially notice it during these launch videos, where you see these fat-assed VIPs sitting in the viewing gallery, clapping on cue. They don't even know what the hell they're watching. Somebody claps, and they also clap, like the pot-bellied kin of tribal chieftains they in fact are.

This isn't the way it's done in other countries, that's for sure. If that's lost upon you, then I'm sorry for that.

After sending Chandrayaan, now India is making a big fuss about sending Aditya to study the Sun. As far as I can see, there's no big imperative for studying solar phenomena right now, it's only that the common man in India is aware of the 2 basic objects in the sky - Sun and Moon - so that a solar mission will afford the politicians bragging rights to the masses that "now aphter vijhiting Moon, vee arr vijhiting Sun"
(try to explain to the common man about a mission to Mars, and you'll be straining the public knowledge base beyond any political milking capacity)

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Dec 2009 11:14

Disha, get off your high horse and reread my posts again!! I am criticizing "deliberate slow Russian Assistance" and not ISRO. Having solved the tougher propulsion, guidance problems, ISRO could easily master know-how for manned mission and fly manned missions if the tech was provided.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 28 Dec 2009 11:32

After sending Chandrayaan, now India is making a big fuss about sending Aditya to study the Sun. As far as I can see, there's no big imperative for studying solar phenomena right now, it's only that the common man in India is aware of the 2 basic objects in the sky - Sun and Moon - so that a solar mission will afford the politicians bragging rights to the masses that "now aphter vijhiting Moon, vee arr vijhiting Sun"

Sanjay,

By studying the sun one can understand the subtle effects on long term climate as well. There is a vested interest in doing so. Understanding the effects of solar flux and climate deserves legitimate study and one can't rely entirely on data from the west. Having probes studying the sun also allows one to improve the radiation hardening of individual components in an aerospace application - IMHO, more so than earth orbiting satellites. Case in point. In the 1970s, the USSR sent probes in to the hostile climate of Venus where it collected data and took photographs on the surface. The US defense & aerospace community was impressed that these probes could survive such extreme pressures and temperatures. At the end of the day you buy technical respect that strategic planners of adversaries must have the input of.

disha · Post by **disha** » 28 Dec 2009 11:36

Vivek K wrote:Sanjay M, the report says the Russia will "help" India in manned space flight to get it done by 2020. If that is true then to a layman it sounds like people in ISRO will have a nice Chai Biscoot session for 11 years!!! My question is - If Russia helps India then why can we not send a manned flight next year?

Vivek K wrote:Disha, get off your high horse and reread my posts again!! I am criticizing "deliberate slow Russian Assistance" and not ISRO. Having solved the tougher propulsion, guidance problems, ISRO could easily master know-how for manned mission and fly manned missions if the tech was provided.

Please re-read your posts again with the highlighted parts. Where are you not condescending? Prove that first and then prove that there is "deliberate slow Russian Assistance". Or just refrain from posting and read and try to understand first.

disha · Post by **disha** » 28 Dec 2009 11:41

Sanjay M wrote: This isn't the way it's done in other countries, that's for sure. If that's lost upon you, then I'm sorry for that.

After sending Chandrayaan, now India is making a big fuss about sending Aditya to study the Sun. As far as I can see, there's no big imperative for studying solar phenomena right now,

Hmmm, like Al Gore invented internet. Maybe you are so dis-illusioned with Indian Political class (of course they are a breed apart), that you do not see any positives in them. But that is your personal problem to solve.

Aditya is necessary. Remember the overheating problem in C-I? That was near moon. If a solar flare happens when humans are in the space capsule, how will you protect them? Rather how *effectively* will you protect them? Maybe study of the Sun may help you understand and maybe provide enough data to effectively protect humans in space capsule. Such data will not be given for free and is never part of technology assistance.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 28 Dec 2009 12:08

^^^
Not only that, polarity of sunspots during heightened solar activity can potentially bring down power grids and cause global blackouts. (There was a discovery channel documentary on this one - cant seem to find the links). They were proposing a satellite mid way between the earth and sun to sense and transmit the polarity of incoming storm. But Aditya can be used to study solar phenomenon in much greater detail than any ground based observatory in India.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Dec 2009 20:53

Disha, your understanding of my posts is incorrect. Please start from the beginning and not the middle. That "may" help you see them differently instead of what you have deduced by taking them out of context.

1. We need Russian help to accomplish this by 2020? Is there an error in the report? Help would mean accomplishing this before 2015. 2020 means that Russia will delay Indian efforts in manned space flight.

----Let me clarify the post for you - IMHO ISRO could do it by itself in the time frame indicated. So what benefit does the Russian help provide?

2. We're always stuck on the same record - not enough funding as the excuse for anything and everything. ISRO showed the world how the frontier of space could be conquered on a shoe string budget. Also, this report seems to state that the budget was increased and a manned mission was planned in 2015 with a manned mission to the moon by 2020. Have the facts changed since then?

--- Again this post applauds ISRO's achievments.

3. Sanjay M, the report says the Russia will "help" India in manned space flight to get it done by 2020. If that is true then to a layman it sounds like people in ISRO will have a nice Chai Biscoot session for 11 years!!! My question is - If Russia helps India then why can we not send a manned flight next year?

---Perhaps you have misunderstood the intent of this post. or maybe I did not spell out my intent clearly. The point was this - if ISRO worked by itself for 11 years it would be able to send a manned mission by itself. Then what benefit (i.e. redction in time of research and development) does Russian help provide?BTW in this age, developing a unisex "space-potty" will not take ISRO 11 years to develop.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 29 Dec 2009 02:01

So what benefit does the Russian help provide?

Safety I guess. We are designing a manned spacecraft for the first time and it will be only wise to take the consultation of an established player in the field who would be by our side to tell Hey buddy u are going wrong there

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 29 Dec 2009 21:58

X Posted - Indian Space Program Discussion // ABM/Missile Defense Discussion // Beam Weapons and Future of Deterrence - Hope it’s not OT.

Hello everyone,

I would like to draw your attention to a radio programme that will be broadcast on tonight’s/today’s ‘Coast to Coast AM’ show. The guest is William B. Scott, who has researched and authored “Space Wars: The first Six Hours of World War III” and “Counterspace: The Next Hours of World War III”. The author will be discussing many aspects of ‘Future Weapons’, surely to include HAARP, the US-SDI and ‘Rods-from-the-Gods’. His book notes…

"Although the characters and actual events depicted in Counterspace are fiction and bear no relationship to actual person living or dead the action and weapons depicted herein are based on actual technologies and war gaming strategies used by the United States military and civilian war planners in preparation for the types of events depicted".

For those in North America, the broadcast starts at 1am EST on Wednesday, December 30, and can be heard on many AM radio stations. For those in India, the broadcast can be heard over the internet starting at 11:30am IST on Wednesday, December 30. If you don’t know where you can hear it, simply go to the show’s website www.coasttocoastam.com and follow the link along the top labelled ‘Radio Affiliates’ (under regular host George Noory’s picture). This link will bring up a map of the United States, and you can click on the map to find the radio stations that carry the program (there are well over a hundred affiliate broadcasts). If all of these radio stations are beyond your area of reception (which is likely for those in India), you can find a radio station that has a ‘Listen Live’ or ‘On-Air’ internet audio capability, as most do, and listen-in over the internet.

Enjoy!

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 29 Dec 2009 22:25

A futuristic article on the "Inner Solar System Economy"

http://www.4frontierscorp.com/dev/asset ... -Rev11.pdf

The opening of the space frontier is creating an emerging inner solar system economy. Over the
next half century, its influence on the Earth based economy, already profound, will continue to
increase and expand. It will be driven by long-term trends of the expanding human biosphere, as
well as advances in technology. By examining historical trends of world gross domestic product
and extrapolating through the initial decades of space frontier development, one can create a set
of economic models of the process. The cluster of models considers both the positive effects of
increasing knowledge, productivity, transportation technology, and population while incorporating
the effects of needs of the Earth’s stressed ecosystem, decreasing availability of Earth resources
and decreasing living space through a set of defined variables. These will be developed, using
both historical analogies and a variety of assumptions concerning social and scientific progress.
The main elements and behavior of the inner solar system economy will be evaluated using trade
dominant models. The basic elements of the model set will consist of Earth and the projected four
frontiers of Earth orbit, Moon, Mars system, and asteroid belt. An overall space gross domestic
product profile is offered as a possible tool for space related strategic business planning. The
effect of various interventions on inner solar system economic trends and, in particular, a
permanent human presence on Mars as proposed by 4Frontiers will be evaluated.
Authors:
Richard Sylvan M.S., M.D.
Affiliations: Medical Fellowship, Johns Hopkins; M.S. Immunology and Microbiology New York
Medical College, Columbia, Cornell; Mathematics/Physics undergraduate, MIT; Cofounder MIT
Strategic Games Society (Political, Economic, and Military Modeling)
Contact Information: 11505 Medlock Ridge Road, Unit 124, Duluth, GA 30097, 770-622-5858
RLSylvan@aol.com
Narayanan M. Komerath, Ph.D. - Professor, School of Aerospace Engineering, Georgia Institute
of Technology, Atlanta, GA 30332-0150, 404-894-3017
narayanan.komerath@aerospace.gatech.edu
Kirk Woellert, Technical Operations Manager, The Arlington Institute, 1501 Lee Highway, Suite
204, Arlington VA 22209, 703-650-1243
kirk.woellert@arlingtoninstitute.org
Mark Homnick, CEO, 4Frontiers Corporation, 4315 Sanddollar Court, New Port Richey, FL
34652, 727-815-1779
mhomnick@4FrontiersCorp.com
Joseph E. Palaia, IV - VP R&D, 4Frontiers Corporation, MS Nuclear Engineering MIT, 3 Elm
Street, Apt. 2, Framingham, MA, 01701, 508-561-2232
joe@4FrontiersCorp.com

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Jan 2010 04:24

GSLV, PSLV flights put off

CHENNAI: The launch of the Geo-synchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV-D3), scheduled for December 2009 from Sriharikota, has been postponed to March.

...
The Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV), planned to be launched prior to the GSLV-D3 flight, has also been postponed. It will now take off in March to put in orbit Cartosat-2B; Alsat, a small satellite from Algeria; two nano-satellites from the University of Toronto, and another nano-satellite, Studsat (Students’ satellite), built by several Indian universities. The Cartosat-2B, to be built by the ISRO Satellite Centre in Bangalore, is also not ready.

....
The GSLV’s first stage had reached Sriharikota, they said then. But the work on building the GSLV-D3 stages in the second launch pad at Sriharikota was now “suspended,” ISRO engineers said. It is a three-stage vehicle, and the first stage was built in the launch pad. “There are several small issues relating to the indigenous cryogenic stage. It takes time to understand cryogenic engines. We want to ensure that everything is reliable,” they said.
...
...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Jan 2010 07:23

So, there was (and is) a PSLV flight along with the GSLV. When I posted this here a few months back, it was discounted.

The Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV), planned to be launched prior to the GSLV-D3 flight, has also been postponed.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Jan 2010 15:18

vivek ji, when lives are at stake we should get all the help/advice we can get. so why not get some consultancy from the russians when ISRO and glavkosmos already has considerable relations and the russians also have a very good safety record.

what exactly is the problem with russian help other than H&D ?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 01 Jan 2010 20:17

If there are issues with a GSLV stage and its launch is postponed its understandable, but why is PSLV launch also postponed?

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 01 Jan 2010 20:31

Vipul wrote:If there are issues with a GSLV stage and its launch is postponed its understandable, but why is PSLV launch also postponed?

Could it be that they are diverting man power and other resources from the PSLV to GSLV?