Treatment of Indians Abroad

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 05 Jan 2010 18:14

On the topic of Indians discriminating against Indians, Goa would no doubt be at the forefront. From the police to the residents there have such disdain for 'outsiders', specially north Indians. This behavior is quite evident in clubs & restaurants, where the white folks are treated like their masters. I was in Goa some years back, and while sitting in a sea side restaurant the manager there asked us to vacate the table so that the firangs would not have to wait. And this was not the only experience that I had there. The point is that when these foreigners go back to their countries, they would carry these perceptions with them.

Also, am I the only one who feels that we Indians still suffer from some kind of inferiority complex vis a vis the westerners?

niran · Post by **niran** » 05 Jan 2010 18:26

I will narrate one, once upon a time, in a far off "land of smiles" an Indian working as a clerk
was crossing a pedestrian over bridge, there he saw a gora begging, when he passed the gora
raised his coffee cup, he gave all the money in his pocket(around 3900 INR) and snapped a picture.
Later on when he narrated his story, people asked why all that money, he answered - his boss is a gora,
he acts as if goras own the world, the snap was the proof he gave to his boss, since then his boss has at least
behaved properly with him.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Jan 2010 20:28

Chandragupta wrote:On the topic of Indians discriminating against Indians,

I think it is quite OK t tell stories of Indians discriminating against Indians in a thread entitled "Treatment of Indians abroad" but I am making this post only to make a point. This is the mother of all equal equals - and nobody need have any takleef with the equal-equals I intend to make in topics where making equal equal is bound to cause extreme takleef. Such opportunities abound and I look forward to the opportunity with glee. Where's the icon for rubbing one's hands together?

But I digress..

A long time ago on this form there was news of a coup in Fiji in which an ethnic Indian PM was removed. There were demands that the Indian Navy should be sent and laments of how India did not care for her own. In the last year or so - Bill Clinton went to NoKo and got two US citizens released and I recall posting a whiny comment about how the GoI could do nothing.

But when I read the varied comments on here I am amazed at the fact that Indians do not really give a damn for other Indians. Here is a brief summary of the statements that I have seen that support this thought

Indians mistreat each other so it's OK for Indians to get mistreated
Indians do have faults (and odors) and must learn to behave before going abroad
Indians being mistreated abroad is not a problem - life is hard and one must learn to live with it

This thread is a learning experience for me. From the comments that I see here I believe that it is safe for any Indian to reach the conclusion that he cannot expect help from other Indians if he is in trouble when he goes abroad and that he can only depend on himself. It's every man for himself

What does a man do under such circumstances? Bending to the dictates of others is certainly a good survival solution in an environment where protesting will get you nothing and you have no support from compatriots or your government.

Of course it can also be construed that one of the hallmarks of a great power is its ability to care for and protect the most egregious and ill behaved of its own citizens. Leave alone the Indian government, even Indians people do not really care about the treatment of Indians abroad and are ready with excuses as to why other Indians do not need help or protection.

I fell a little sad inside me - but I also know that India will not progress to become a world power with these dhimmi like attitudes. Power will come from a people who are proud of themselves. Indians are a noisy, smelly and farty burpy people. Most Indians are like that and are proud to be that way because they feel no embarrassment from these things. Only the Macaulayised among us find this disgusting and change our behavior to suit the sensibilities of what we think are required from us - but India is what it is and it will dominate the world in a farty-burpy smelly way with its own rules. Not by Indians bending to rules set by others.

munna · Post by **munna** » 05 Jan 2010 21:04

shiv wrote:
Chandragupta wrote:Only the Macaulayised among us find this disgusting and change our behavior to suit the sensibilities of what we think are required from us - but India is what it is and it will dominate the world in a farty-burpy smelly way with its own rules. Not by Indians bending to rules set by others.

Could not resist Shivji, but that sir is a "Bolti Band" (mouth shut) post of yours!
This post addresses my angst against all those conformists/"good boy" and "ooh la la" variety of NRIs who would gladly smile at all and sundry but the moment they notice a fellow Indian in the train or hotel they go all glum and serious. Once again thanks for this post.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 05 Jan 2010 21:21

1. Our family was visiting Alaska. At one "touristy" spot; we had to park our car quite far away from the entrance. It was a long way back as we were walking back to the parking lot a car went past us stopped and came in reverse to stop near us. A cheerful person poked his head out and offered us a lift. We exchanged pleasantries, he was a telugu speaking Christian priest. He was glad to see us and offer us the little help.

2. Same Alaska trip, we were walking in Anchorage downtown. I see a Sardarji walking from the other way; we smile at each other but he beams a great smile, and stops to talk a little bit more and then hugs me out in the open. Then offers to spend time with us and taking us through the downtown area. We thank him and politely refuse.

3. As we were planning to make an India trip, I was looking for contractors who could mow our lawn. So I end up chatting with my neighbor (not next door) about potential contractors. He said he will gladly do the mowing. I reminded him that I would be gone for four + weeks. He said he did not mind and would mow the lawn once a week. I offered to pay him. He refused. As he did not have to do it for me, I gave him a bottle of wine. He is White. There is another White neighbor who reminds me often about how tall my grass on the lawn grows.

4. It was a snowy month, I was driving to pick my kid from the school. On the street the school was located, I missed the school entrance. So I drove little further and decided to turn my car right at the road - it is a low-traffic area, so making sure I was not causing danger to any other car I turn thinking my car would be able to climb up the snow piled on the sides. Lo, the wheels of the car get stuck. I can't get it out and I am thinking what to do. A truck stops, a cheerful head pokes itself out sizes the situation and eventually using ropes pull my car out. I thank him profusely. He is White.

Good and bad people live everywhere.

ps: The only desis I try to stay away are those prowling the stores trying to make contact and give us the opportunity to make lots of money - ahem ahem the Amway kind of people. I had no idea the effort and art that goes into making such professionals.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 05 Jan 2010 21:46

Very nice thread. Shivji has a knack for starting threads with relevence to the issues. However one thing i've noticed in my travels over the last 2 decades. The Indian passport is gradually getting more respect. I can see a marked change in attitudes at immigration controls in various countries.

However there's probably another introspective thread very relevent to BRF and India, if i may suggest. How Indians treat Indians in India. An example, we blame mostly leftists for being WKKs, but there's an obvious constituency that still clings to a feudal mindset thats constituting a large portion of the WKKs. Most WKKs are not commies. They are feudal mindset folks and a deep yearning for a TFTA image. Thats why they misbehave with SDRE natives while being lavishing servile to white and TFTA types.

I'll give an example in a restaurant, next time please observe: Someone's talking very nicely, normally to you. However when he or she wants the waiter, demeanor changes and becomes bossy or dominating, certainly unpleasant. Such people don't treat humanity with equanimity. I don't see why under perfectly normal circumstances one should be polite one minute to X and snappy at Y and back to being polite with X next second. I find it amusing and assunme it's a feudal mindset at play. Why i call this a mindset is even waiters at restaurants have this TFTA/ SDRE complex. Goa has changed a bit in recent years, but in the 90's i noticed a lot of servility towards white folks in the service industry. The example can be seen across homes in the way we treat our maids and mali's. I understand things are changing, but if we link up this mindset with WKKism for example we start seeing things more clearly. If we don't we risk confusing WKKism for example with the leftist. That's the reason i thought this is very relevent to our strategic realm too.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 05 Jan 2010 21:49

shiv wrote:
Chandragupta wrote:On the topic of Indians discriminating against Indians,
Only the Macaulayised among us find this disgusting and change our behavior to suit the sensibilities of what we think are required from us - but India is what it is and it will dominate the world in a farty-burpy smelly way with its own rules. Not by Indians bending to rules set by others.

Shiv ji, I think you misunderstood my post. We are on the same side here. I was only bringing out the observation that we are not proud of ourselves enough. I never intended my post to mean

Indians mistreat each other so it's OK for Indians to get mistreated

Of course not. That is the most quoted reason that is given by apologists for them racists.

I don't think the Chinese sit back & take as much shit as Indians do. And from what I have been told, I don't think the Chinese give two hoots to 'blend in' either. Where does the problem lies, then?

munna · Post by **munna** » 05 Jan 2010 22:05

Chandragupta wrote:Chinese give two hoots to 'blend in' either. Where does the problem lies, then?

Allow me sirji!
The problem lies at the deeper level of a yearning for feudal overlordship. In India the social hierarchies remain very strong both the historic ones like caste, money and position in gobermund and also the new found ones like your college, company and areas where you live etc etc these fill most upper class Indians with a sense of superiority. Technically speaking these hierarchies afflict the most powerful and empowered migrants from India with a strong "minority in majority sundrome" whereby they refuse to identify with the burpy, farty, 12th pass Indian but consider the 6th pass khanian as their equal. They seek to identify themselves with the majority in the fond hope that they have ultimately found their true blue blooded couterparts instead of them ill behaved desis. Once the people who are in a position to speak and can afford to do so go quiet or native then it is very hard to expect a subsistence worker from India in foreign lands to holler for his rights. We face a similar problem as we had with "Raibahadurs" in British times!

No matter who you are, no matter what you do, its all your fault---(One word guide to all visitors/migrants/workers/diplomats/officials from India in phoren lands)

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 05 Jan 2010 22:21

Would we still have these 'Macaulayites' and these wannabe whites, if we our freedom struggle was not non-violent and we had kicked the British in their balls instead? Just a random thought.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 05 Jan 2010 22:54

Chandragupta wrote:Would we still have these 'Macaulayites' and these wannabe whites, if we our freedom struggle was not non-violent and we had kicked the British in their balls instead? Just a random thought.

I would rephrase it, if the general perception was that our freedom struggle was non violent this issue would not exist, this is surprising also because in fact to a great degree it was not, the British gave in to Congress because it was a party which believed in collaborating with the British as a measure of face saving.

However the real move was due to a fear of not being able to suppress a armed rebellion if it breaks out (post WW II)

It is a sad reflection on the "macaulayized" that they strive to keep the false images of a pure non violent struggle alive at the cost neglecting many others.

I am increasingly convinced that the only issue that the Indians have is the prison of their own minds.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 Jan 2010 02:15

The problem lies at the deeper level of a yearning for feudal overlordship.

Munna ji, very well said. I've been trying to get across this even on the TSP thread with respect to WKKs. A moderator did not understand the link i was trying to make and this is a very important link to understanding WKKism and Aman ki Asha crap being doled out. The desire for feudal overlordship remains and it's maybe diinishing remnants clearly visible in Page 3, WKKisms and Asha and Aman crap. This is totally different from the lefties or jhollawala brigade. Fact is many of these jhollawala's emerge from this feudal setup. Rest are too busy to do humanities and stuff and concentrate on hard core bread n butter professions.

We face a similar problem as we had with "Raibahadurs" in British times!

Thats why i suggested a similar thread for Indians in India. We have too many Rai Bahadurs still here amongst us. Specially those even amongst us who think little of our maids, pan wallahs, or anyone that we deem below a certain stature. We don't hesitate using unnecessary harsh, dominative language against those..that we deem we can control. This also does in a way translate into Govt policy at a certain level. Lets make no bones about that. But that fails with the TFTA feudals..our Kuldip Nayyars, IK Gujrals, Advani's, TOilet honcho's melt away when meeting minds of fellow feudals commences. This is not Aman ki Asha, it's a deeper psychological imperative amongst feudals both sides of the border to make peace. This has to be understood in it's strategic context. Because it goes against the common folks this side of the border.

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 06 Jan 2010 03:16

You will only get respect if you believe that you deserve it.

To believe that you deserve it, you must like who you are (not in a defensive way, but because you believe that you are worthy). Indians who keep on seeing their shortcomings, but ignore those of others, do it because they think they are not good enough. Unless that changes, nothing else will- and it is changing!

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Jan 2010 03:22

Interesting info about WKK Raibahadurs , no doubt they are impressed with Naukar, Chakars of thier counterparts across Wagha.WKK can useful if used as bait to catch RapeFish and make fresh Sushi. One thing is sure, once Indian economy boom and Desis become rich , the preception will change and so will be the reality of prejudices and treatment at home and abroad. $ is great leveler.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 Jan 2010 04:22

the preception will change and so will be the reality of prejudices and treatment at home and abroad. $ is great leveler.

It's changing a few, not all. Look at the latest WKK..Jaswant Singh. Monied and landed guy. Used to tell others working in South Block to park their cars half a mile away. Arrogant bearing, yet when it came to TFTA fuedals this guy melted away and went on unwarrantedly praising Jinnah.

I agree that normal folks earning will negate the WKK types, we've seen it in the TOI responses to AKA (Aman ki Asha). However thats a mindset thats in vogue and in command of strategic affairs in addition to being predominant in foreign affairs. they've been giving into massive land grabbing by China and possibly Pakistan. They're responsible for getting Tibet off the negotiating table and much more. That mindset has to be identified, nailed, ridiculed and put on the backburner.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 06 Jan 2010 04:35

harbans wrote: We face a similar problem as we had with "Raibahadurs" in British times!

Thats why i suggested a similar thread for Indians in India. We have too many Rai Bahadurs still here amongst us. Specially those even amongst us who think little of our maids, pan wallahs, or anyone that we deem below a certain stature. We don't hesitate using unnecessary harsh, dominative language against those..that we deem we can control. This also does in a way translate into Govt policy at a certain level. Lets make no bones about that. But that fails with the TFTA feudals..our Kuldip Nayyars, IK Gujrals, Advani's, TOilet honcho's melt away when meeting minds of fellow feudals commences. This is not Aman ki Asha, it's a deeper psychological imperative amongst feudals both sides of the border to make peace. This has to be understood in it's strategic context. Because it goes against the common folks this side of the border.

That will lead to discussing of castes and faith and will lead to somebody being labeled hindutwavadi (whatever that means), some one bashing IMs and ICs. Mods will have to work overtime. "Know Your India" thread is great for now. JMT.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 06 Jan 2010 06:56

Shiv ji,

It is all about communications!! To be a real global player you have to effectively communicate and put your point across in many different situations and cultures. We Desis are learning about how to be global players and will come out strong. In my opinion... too many youngsters too fast (vast majority only in last 5 years) immigrated to Australia and both cultures (Indians/Australian) are trying to cope up with this change. There wasn't such issue earlier in Australia.

Saudi Arabians are indeed racist and will never tolerate anybody (even Indian Al Qaeda Jihadi) who is not of their race.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jan 2010 07:26

http://www.indianexpress.com/comments/p ... sw/563609/

Partially burnt body of Indian migrant found in NSW

Melbourne: A partially-burnt body found in Australia's New South Wales province last week is believed to be of a 25-year old Indian national, police said on Tuesday, in what might be the second fatality in a slew of vicious attacks on Indians.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 06 Jan 2010 08:16

Shiv ji,

What can you expect of the colony of convicts.. Australia has lots of land and mass!! and not enough people!! this land is ripe for Indians to fill and occupy!! as we do not have enough land for 1.2 billions to fill in the current India (After giving away Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma, etc). So.. as more and more Indians migrate to Australia, New Zealand (only natural place for indians as all other avenues are closed) we will increase our influence in world politics.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jan 2010 08:39

SBajwa wrote:Shiv ji,

What can you expect of the colony of convicts.. Australia has lots of land and mass!! and not enough people!! this land is ripe for Indians to fill and occupy!! as we do not have enough land for 1.2 billions to fill in the current India (After giving away Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma, etc). So.. as more and more Indians migrate to Australia, New Zealand (only natural place for indians as all other avenues are closed) we will increase our influence in world politics.

Bajwaji - you are starting a new thread (of thought, if nothing else). Australian land was sacred to the Aborigines in the same way that India is sacred to Indians. But some humans made new laws for themselves in which any land they occupied was sacred for them. Those people found it easiest to grab the sacred land of others and make it their own.

Indians have to decide whether they find the foreign lands they grab as sacred or not - because only when the land you live on is sacred to you will you fight to protect that land with your own life.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 06 Jan 2010 08:50

MEA issues travel advisory to Indian students in Aus

The Ministry of External Affairs cautions Indian students who are planning to study in Australia that there have been several incidents of robbery and assault on Indians in Australia, particularly in Melbourne, which has seen an increase in violence on its streets in recent years, with the offenders suspected to be mainly young people in their teens and early 20s,’’ the MEA said.

The advisory noted that the most recent incident of this kind was the fatal stabbing of a 21-year-old Indian in Melbourne on 2 January as he was walking to his part-time workplace late at night from a train station through a public park. It further pointed out that the incidents are occurring without any pattern or rationale and despite the efforts of the local police. ``Increasingly also, the acts of violence, are often accompanied by verbal abuse, fuelled by alcohol and drugs,’' the advisory said. The Australian authorities have maintained that there is no evidence to suggest a racial motive to the attacks.

The advisory also said that a majority of Indian students, especially those in universities and reputable institutions, have a positive Australia experience, but warned that the incidents of assault and robbery against Indian students and members of the larger Indian community in Australia, were on the rise.

``Keeping these factors in view, the Government of India advises Indian students studying in Australia as well as those planning to study there, that they should take certain basic precautions in being alert to their own security while moving around,’’ the advisory said.

The list of dos and donts released includes a warning against traveling alone late at night and carrying expensive items. The advisory, which includes the contact details of the Indian consuls in Sydney and Melbourne and a diplomat in the Indian high commission in Canberra, also asks students to check out their routes of travel carefully and to keep to well-lit populated areas. The advisory also asks students to inform others of their plans.

``Make sure that someone knows where you are going and at what time you are expected to return,’’ the advisory said. ``Don’t carry more cash with you than what is required; do not make it obvious that you are in possession of expensive items, such as ipods or laptops,’’ were some of the other donts on the list.

-----------
This is a very significant moment. With this, MEA (and India) has crossed one important Macaulite redline that Indians haven't crossed for centuries.

Australia gets the honor!!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jan 2010 08:54

Indians have to decide whether they find the foreign lands they grab as sacred or not - because only when the land you live on is sacred to you will you fight to protect that land with your own life.

This is a gem Shiv-ji. People had severe heart burns when I made the same statement in Sub-continental context.

AWMTA

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Jan 2010 09:34

Not Onlee Australia, But Canada too. Let their destiny be Indic.
RamaY, what happen when all that is held sacred is outside of the domicile?

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 06 Jan 2010 09:53

I once went to a store in England, to pick up a sandwich for lunch. The clerk (Polish) was very rude, and offensive, and kept saying "What you want, huh? What you want!? You go! You go!". At this point, I called the manager and complained about her absolutely unprovoked rudeness. He was a bit flummoxed himself, and served me himself eventually.

I was very, very annoyed. Ive noticed that the "New" Europeans in England, are amongst the rudest and most racist. Im afraid Ive developed a bit of a prejudice against them.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 06 Jan 2010 09:59

ASPuar wrote:I once went to a store in England, to pick up a sandwich for lunch. The clerk (Polish) was very rude, and offensive, and kept saying "What you want, huh? What you want!? You go! You go!". At this point, I called the manager and complained about her absolutely unprovoked rudeness. He was a bit flummoxed himself, and served me himself eventually.

I was very, very annoyed. Ive noticed that the "New" Europeans in England, are amongst the rudest and most racist. Im afraid Ive developed a bit of a prejudice against them.

This is what I am mostly afraid off in these issues.

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 06 Jan 2010 10:46

Indians do not receive any race related training at home in a sense that our parents do not teach about the evils of other races. Indian government does not issue any travel advisories. Of course, Australia is the first one to get the honor. So this leaves us pretty much on a trial and error.

I have visited following countries:
Thailand
Japan
Germany
USA

I will not recommend Thailand. I personally have no desire to set my foot there again. The airport officials are rude. Prostitutes knock on your door all day and all night. The hotels are filled with male guests from North America and they seem to be there to play and I am not talking about cricket.

Japan is a beautiful country. People are polite. I could relate to them. I would highly recommend Japan to anyone who is interested in visiting Japan for business or leisure. However, in my experience, Japanese folks do not like to joke too much. So try to avoid unnecessary jokes and you should be fine.

Everyone tells me that Germans are racist and history books have quite a few unsavory chapters devoted to them but I have always had pleasant experiences in Germany. I get along well with Germans. I noticed one thing about Germans; they come across as very timid about themselves in the beginning. But if you feed them enough rope, they become very cocky and overbearing. So, the key is in balance.

I have very heavy duty experience with USA. I had one violent experience in USA. Someone attempted to rob me at a knife point. I was hurt badly in self defense and the guy was arrested. He was sentenced for nine years in prison for armed robbery if my memory is correct. The crime was not race related. However, one thing Indians have to realize about USA is crime rate is very high there, especially in the big cities. Compton, East Los Angeles, South Central Los Angeles, Boyle Heights, Inglewood, Vernon and City of Industry are a few of many areas in Greater Los Angeles that should be avoided. Las Vegas attracts lots of Indians. Actually tons of Indians tour Las Vegas annually. But many of them do not know that Las Vegas ranks number one in USA as far as per capita crime rate is concerned. If you are in Vegas as a short term tourist, try to stay in the strip area and do not venture in the industrial neighborhoods of Las Vegas. If wish to stay long term, stay in Summerlin and North West Las Vegas. They are good areas. Downtown areas in any big US city is trouble. Suburbs are usually safer. If you are a permanent resident, check out the local gun laws and consider owning a gun. They can save your life in crisis like home invasion. After Al Queda attack on New York, Americans are very wary of Arabs. Large number of Americans even the educated ones are unable to tell the difference between Indians and Arabs. So, as an Indian you may be at the receiving end of their anti Arab fury. Avoid lower income areas. These people tend to get very emotional about Arabs. On the subject of racism, I will give USA a pass mark. I had some bad experiences with rednecks but I quickly learned that those are the folks I needed to avoid. In a nutshell if you play your cards right and if you are not unlucky, you should have no problem coming back to India alive.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 06 Jan 2010 14:47

On the topic of Indians discriminating against Indians, Goa would no doubt be at the forefront. From the police to the residents there have such disdain for 'outsiders', specially north Indians. This behavior is quite evident in clubs & restaurants, where the white folks are treated like their masters. I was in Goa some years back, and while sitting in a sea side restaurant the manager there asked us to vacate the table so that the firangs would not have to wait. And this was not the only experience that I had there. The point is that when these foreigners go back to their countries, they would carry these perceptions with them.

Also, am I the only

this used to happen because more goras used to visit goa for smoking weed and paedophilia. to cover their sins they used to leave large sum as tips and thus natural bias for goras in goa.

the scenario has changed in a very big way. most the time you will see either equal or more indians in restaurants and hotels in goa nowadays. goras leave less tips coz in many of the recent raping incidents the local goan waiters also include a minister have been allegedly involved.

there used to be many restaurants in my city only serving beefs and porks frequented by goras to full capacity. now the things are different altogether - goras dont get a place to sit as these restaurants are occupied by desi, ugly, various language speaking, beer drinking, arrogant looking, smart indians. they also tip well.

the new waiters still think that goras are the first priority guests and should be treated well but the truth sets early.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 06 Jan 2010 19:36

by Shiv ji
Bajwaji - you are starting a new thread (of thought, if nothing else). Australian land was
sacred to the Aborigines in the same way that India is sacred to Indians. But some humans
made new laws for themselves in which any land they occupied was sacred for them. Those
people found it easiest to grab the sacred land of others and make it their own.

Indians have to decide whether they find the foreign lands they grab as sacred or not -
because only when the land you live on is sacred to you will you fight to protect that
land with your own life.

In my opinion Vasudev Kutumbkam in the truest sense means that indian thought and philosophy needs to be popularized around the world. Only way this can happen is when large number of Indians raise their families in far away lands.

Indians are not invading Australia, Canada or USA. We are immigrating lawfully (in most cases) to improve individual economy and to raise kids with better opportunity (noble prizes, olympic gold medals, etc). This is not like colonizing these lands as Europeans did earlier.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 06 Jan 2010 21:46

shiv wrote:Indians have to decide whether they find the foreign lands they grab as sacred or not - because only when the land you live on is sacred to you will you fight to protect that land with your own life.

I cannot resist but comment that far from making foreign land sacred & "protect that land with your own life", Indians have failed to protect even their own lands---lands where they have lived since the dawn of history. We beleive in peace, we beleive in generosity, we beleive in giving up land of our ancestors to get peace & prosperity in return. You are embarassing us by talking of Indians protecting the lands with their own lives.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 06 Jan 2010 21:56

The land as sacred is a prominent Hindutva concept...therefore best not discussed on the forum!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Jan 2010 22:15

^^^
What about the Holy Land and Crusades?

Land held (and still does in some cases) a deeper value in several cultures. Corporations and current way of life has caused some level of disconnection. When we are physically removed from the effects of our thoughts and actions we tend to think & act differently than what we would if we had the connection.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 06 Jan 2010 22:39

The Crusades had more to do with a sense of fanatical unity that swept Latin Christian Europe than anything else. When those feelings subsided in a couple of centuries, so did the crusades.

The Venetians who transported the crusaders were largely in it for the trade opportunities and the transport fees they charged the crusaders. They were quite happy to let the crusaders get themselves killed while they traded with the Muslims in Egypt.

The crusaders achieved nothing other than killing large numbers of locals (Christian, Muslim and Jewish alike - hence the phrase, 'kill them all, let god sort them out'), as well as getting themselves killed.

The Venetians, Genoese, etc on the other hand not only got rich playing every side but helped spark the intellectual and artistic explosion of the Renaissance which led to the Enlightenment and in turn the Industrial Revolution, while stemming the Islamic conquest of the Mediterranean for almost 500 years.

Three cheers for blind fervour, clearly the way to prosper and succeed.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Jan 2010 22:42

^^^
Are you saying there is no concept of Holy Land or a piece of land being sacred in the Christianity, Islam or Judaism?

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 06 Jan 2010 22:49

Swamy,

Of course not. I'm saying dont confuse the idea of the 'Holy Land' with the Crusades.

I'm saying that intense fervour that the Crusades represent is episodic. Christians outside Latin Europe (and there were a lot!) were not involved in the Crusades, and even within Europe there were huge differences in the level of commitment to the cause.

I'm also saying that kind of fervour is not necessarily what gets societies ahead in the long run. Societies that exhaust themselves on fundamentally unproductive areas (like tearing each other to bits over religious questions) only hold themselves back.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 06 Jan 2010 23:10

SwamyG wrote:^^^
What about the Holy Land and Crusades?

Land held (and still does in some cases) a deeper value in several cultures. Corporations and current way of life has caused some level of disconnection. When we are physically removed from the effects of our thoughts and actions we tend to think & act differently than what we would if we had the connection.

Fine, call it religious concept then. My concerns are that Shiv's definition -

1. Excludes Indians who do not subscribe to the same value system
2. Goes against the definition of Indian as enshrined in the 1951 Indian constitution
3. Seems to suggest that Indians would be incapable of swearing loyalty to another constitution - thereby providing fodder for the same kind of treatment that is sought to be prevented.
4. Opens the door to a discussion that is OT for this thread and forum.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Jan 2010 07:20

surinder wrote:
shiv wrote:Indians have to decide whether they find the foreign lands they grab as sacred or not - because only when the land you live on is sacred to you will you fight to protect that land with your own life.
I cannot resist but comment that far from making foreign land sacred & "protect that land with your own life", Indians have failed to protect even their own lands---lands where they have lived since the dawn of history. We beleive in peace, we beleive in generosity, we beleive in giving up land of our ancestors to get peace & prosperity in return. You are embarassing us by talking of Indians protecting the lands with their own lives.

Well that certainly says something doesn't it Surinder?
Anyhow I digress.

Here is one news item - I post only the headline
Indian set on fire in Oz, again cops say no race angle

By pushing the "race" angle too far I believe the Indian press is losing the plot. The argument is moving over to whether the attacks are "racially motivated" or not which is a diversion from the main point that Indians are being attacked.

For years we have seen and for a decade or more we have discussed the treatment of Indians. Indians have developed the reputation of being soft targets and I would like to look at possible reasons. I belive the simplistic explanation is "the GoI does nothing". That is perfectly true but Indians as a "race"

ooops! wrong word - Indians as a nationality do not get blindly uptight about transgressions on other Indians if it is no skin off their own nose. It all fits in well with what that old hag wotzername Crosland (or is it Barbara Crossbones) writes about India having "anemic influence"

In the seventies - all Indians were kicked out of Uganda. Now whoda thunk that was "racist"? Kaloo kicking out kaloo. That ain't racist. But it was Indians that got kicked out, not Norwegians. In Fiji there was a coup specifically against an Indian led government supported by the nearly 50% (I think) Indian ethnic population. What was that guy's name? "Sitiveni Rebuka" I think. kaloo vs kaloo again. And now in Australia we are told that it is the Vietnamese or some other set of Yahoos attacking Indians.

After 9-11 we saw Sikhs being blindly attacked in the US. I recall we had a thread about that on here. If you start dissecting piskology the story about Indians gets too uncomfortable for words. Many of these things have come up on the forum. Ultimately if you start looking at minor characteristics like diet, smell, clothes, behavior, language etc you can find so many differences between you and your neighbor that you can convince yourself that he is a menace. So a line has to be drawn somewhere. At some point people have to get together and say "This person is Indian, and he is being treated badly". It is all too easy to look for differences between that guy and oneself and say "Hey that guy has these deficiencies - so it's OK for him to be treated that way"

I will not speak of the Chinese - I don't think China has done a great deal to protect Chinese in any place other than in Pakistan. The US actually consists of people from a diverse background of ethnic origins. It the US really really concerned about its citizens or is it just an impression that I have gained from some high profile noise made by the US about its citizens? I note that the six US citizens who recently turned up in Pakistan do not seem to be getting the kind of consular support that I was taught to believe that every US citizen got.

So what's up? Does it matter if Indians as a group are mistreated? What help can an Indian get for being Indian? Does it help to unite as a group of "Indians for Indian" is is it better to follow a policy of every man for himself because the offender may not have known how to behave properly.

Who would make such a policy? What sort of policy can be made? Can guidelines be put up? Can Indians (in India - who have the most to lose) develop the basic sense to collect and issue guidelines about what can be expected in various nations of the world. After all a large number of Indians do travel abroad and a huge number are searching for vegetarian food, or spicy food and water to wash ass. ( I don not say this irreverently. A shift from water to paper is not easy)

Can anyone draw up guidelines staring from Angola and ending with Zimbabwe? Can we use this thread to make a set of guidelines for Indians on what to expect and what behavior/dress is considered rude and general safety guidelines for Indians?

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 10 Jan 2010 07:56

Shiv,

Very good idea. If you or someone can prepare a skeleton (template) document then rest of us who have extensive experience with specific countries can start to fill up the document with meat (data texts). For example, I feel I can be of help regarding a few countries but I am unable to formulate a format in which I will write my advisory. I hope I am making sense.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Jan 2010 08:02

It is important to note that a large numbers of Indians going to Australia are students.

About 30% of Indians today (300 million Indians) are under the age of 14 years.

Over the next decade all these 300 million will need an education. Foreign universities are already smelling $$$ in India because of this. Many are setting up shop in India for recruits - many faltu third rate and fourth rate "Universities" unheard of in their countries of origin are making craploads of money from India in a country that admires shirts with brand names like "Peter London" and people who buy houses in localities called "Glendale"

The point is that even if 1% of India's 300 million under 14s were to go abroad in the next 10 years there will still be 3 million young Indians going abroad to study for the first time.

Where would they go? They are hardly likely to seek admission in the University of Mogadishu. The US, UK, Ireland, Canada and Australia (as anglophone nations) are big favorites, but increasingly Indians are going to Russia, Germany, France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy and I am sure that as countries smell money Indians will be "invited" by "Universities" in all sorts of places - perhaps Iceland, Mexico, and South American countries.

As long as Indians are paying money their money will be welcome, but not their language, behavior and smells. And they will be attacked merely for being themselves.

If these young Indians were your nieces/nephews what advice could you give them? For example what advice could be given to an Indian going to Germany to study? Or Switzerland? Japan? Russia?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Jan 2010 08:04

Karan Dixit wrote:Shiv,

Very good idea. If you or someone can prepare a skeleton (template) document then rest of us who have extensive experience with specific countries can start to fill up the document with meat (data texts). For example, I feel I can be of help regarding a few countries but I am unable to formulate a format in which I will write my advisory. I hope I am making sense.

Good idea. Will see if I can think up something.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Jan 2013 20:33

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... y/1795415/

A mumbling woman pushed a man to his death in front of a New York subway train. Although this is the second such death in December, an MTA spokesman says these are rare events

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/woman ... urt-311480

Prosecutors said she pushed the 46-year-old India native to his death because she blamed "Muslims, Hindus and Egyptians" for the September 11 terrorist attacks.

"I pushed a Muslim off the train tracks because I hate Hindus and Muslims - ever since 2001 when they put down the twin towers I've been beating them up," Menendez told police, according to the district attorney's office.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 17 Jan 2013 15:34

I consider the Roma people as Indians, and hope others would too, so I am posting it here.

An EU Framework for National Roma Integration Strategies up to 2020