Indian Autos Thread

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 22 Dec 2009 08:55

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 22 Dec 2009 13:45

Honda to Globally Premiere Concept Small Car in India

Desh is turning out to be the Rome of small car marketers the world over. If a small car makes it here, can make it anywhere kinda logic, perhaps.

More interestingly, the global majors would also be interested in putting pressure on tata motors in its home mkt lest it down the line become a small-is-beautiful innovation behemoth. Conceivably, Tata could grow enough using India's domestic mkt to emerge to challenge the biggies in the emerged mkts and all.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 22 Dec 2009 13:51

Mahindra, Partner to Invest $40 Million in Chinese Tractor JV

NEW DELHI -- Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. Monday said it, along with partner [state owned] Jiangsu Yueda Yancheng Tractor Manufacturing Co., will invest $40 million to build a research and development center, an engine manufacturing plant and to modernize factories at their Chinese tractor-making joint venture.

The modernization will consolidate joint venture Mahindra Yueda Tractor Co.'s manufacturing operations and improve productivity and quality, India's largest tractor maker by sales said.

Mahindra last year formed a joint venture with China's state-owned Jiangsu Yueda to make tractors for the Chinese and global markets. The Mumbai-based company holds a majority 51% stake in the joint venture, while the remaining 49% is held by its Chinese partner.

IOW, if Mahindra has any IP or tech worth anything, it will be stolen, copied and mass-produced by the state-owned JV partner. Foreigners can't sue chinese, much less state owned firms in china for breach of anything, as the mighty Goldman sachs found out to its loss recently when the PBoC refused to honor derivative contracts GS had signed with some state owned entities in PRC.

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 24 Dec 2009 23:32

Mahindra distributor reportedly says first U.S. models to hit market in spring

Link has gallery of pics

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/23/repo ... hit-marke/

Global Vehicles USA, the chosen distributor for Mahindra's wares here in the States, is saying that the TR20 and TR40 have now passed U.S. federal safety and emissions standards and the final paperwork will be completed by February.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 27 Dec 2009 17:52

Eko Vehicles claims ET-120 is first production hybrid motorcycle
World’s First Hybrid Motorcycle Heads to India

The ET-120 will be heading to Indian shores and boasts a mpg rating of about 280 mpg and top speed of 40mph. Sure it won’t get you anywhere fast, but who’s going to complain with a retail price of $855?

The ET-120 will be offered by Bangalore based Eko Vehicles. Developed in collaboration with US based Emerging Technologies Inc the ET-120 could set the stage to grow a grass-roots hybrid moto following rather than the trickle-down to the masses approach you’ll see with the Mission One and Mavizen.

If none of that is surprising, a five-year warranty likely is. Is there a single bike on the market today with a warrantee at all let alone for five years? According to their press release, they wanted to demonstrate “quality is not sacrificed even at the incredible pricing.” Well I’d say they got their point across.

Umrao Das · Post by **Umrao Das** » 29 Dec 2009 17:41

Bajaj Chetak was bajaj Cheating.
It is the screwed up copy cat of original Vespa. That too to aviod paying royalties.

If you want real thing look no further

http://www.vespausa.com/

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 31 Dec 2009 23:50

France to Give 20% Discount to Reva, Tesla Purchases

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 01 Jan 2010 19:46

All the major auto companies are reporting strong sales performance for November

Maruti (+50%),Yamaha(+60%), Skoda(+52%), GM India(+101%) Hero Honda (+74%) and TVS (+34%).
Though we have to consider the low base figure(Comparatively speaking, for November 2009), it will be interesting to track the growth in the coming quarters.
BRfites in Delhi are lucky for the chance to go to the Auto Expo starting on the 5th.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 02 Jan 2010 00:57

ArmenT wrote:Eko Vehicles claims ET-120 is first production hybrid motorcycle
World’s First Hybrid Motorcycle Heads to India
The ET-120 will be heading to Indian shores and boasts a mpg rating of about 280 mpg and top speed of 40mph. Sure it won’t get you anywhere fast, but who’s going to complain with a retail price of $855?

The ET-120 will be offered by Bangalore based Eko Vehicles. Developed in collaboration with US based Emerging Technologies Inc the ET-120 could set the stage to grow a grass-roots hybrid moto following rather than the trickle-down to the masses approach you’ll see with the Mission One and Mavizen.

If none of that is surprising, a five-year warranty likely is. Is there a single bike on the market today with a warrantee at all let alone for five years? According to their press release, they wanted to demonstrate “quality is not sacrificed even at the incredible pricing.” Well I’d say they got their point across.

Some one told me that a modern bike can do approx 90 km per liter. TWho would want to purchase a bulky old fashioned bike that offers 120 km per liter.? Sounds like a failure to me.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jan 2010 07:28

> Bajaj Chetak was bajaj Cheating.

during the period of its industrial golden era 1850-1930, the US of A wilfully and deliberately behaved
like the PRC does today and copied/stole/cloned everything from european high tech cos (uk, germany, france) without any considerations of IP.

may a 1000 chetaks grow on our soil

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 03 Jan 2010 19:25

We had a fundamental problem with the copy process. We do the 'fly copy' and never improve on the copy. Engineers trying to improve are stifled, and demanded to 'just copy the original'. Then the product is built forever from those designs. Not a single baby step is taken beyond that.

Then we tom tom our jugaad!!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jan 2010 19:50

true. amirkhan took copy to its logical conclusion of improving and finally coming up with new stuff. bajaj didnt care - until others came to rudely wake them like hero , yamaha and honda and the scooter market dried up.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 04 Jan 2010 15:13

Singha wrote:true. amirkhan took copy to its logical conclusion of improving and finally coming up with new stuff. bajaj didnt care - until others came to rudely wake them like hero , yamaha and honda and the scooter market dried up.

More than that..crooked money bags and lalas bribed the netas extensively to ensure that they have cushy markets where they dont have to innovate and can continue to sell junk with two year waiting list because entry gates were closed.

Nehruvian socialism and license permit raj survived so long in India because the lala class was funding its continuity in a big way..even as they were making public noises protesting against red tape. To the netas it was benefit both ways - their pockets gets lined and they get to show off their dedication to 'socialism'.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jan 2010 15:22

Dec sales report:

Honda Model wise sales break-up:
City: 3269 - impressive success in cities; lets see what toyota etios can do
Jazz: 269 - some mba really ****ed up on the pricing. should be 1.5L less
Civic: 363 - indigenize more, stop ripping customers off.
Accord: 113
CR-V: 47

sinha · Post by **sinha** » 04 Jan 2010 15:42

Singha wrote:Dec sales report:

Honda Model wise sales break-up:
City: 3269 - impressive success in cities; lets see what toyota etios can do

Long wait, it will be confirmed tomorrow at auto expo, but aint hitting the road till late 2010. also rumours have it that it has 1.4 ltr diesel engine (and a petrol later) with sedan coming ahead of hatchback version. Seems more like a competitor for Dzire/Manza than ANHC.
But I may be wrong...Desis have an unnecessary fetish for anything that big T or H produces.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 04 Jan 2010 17:21

sinha wrote:.Desis have an unnecessary fetish for anything that big T or H produces.

And T & H have a nice fetish for India..after all where else will a auto magazine review of Corolla talk of it as a luxury car.

we are such a big and well paying scrapyard..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jan 2010 20:04

the Etios is expected to have a peak rating of 100-105hp at some absurd rpm, while ANHC has 118hp @ absurd rpm. the ANHC looks like its bonnet part is longer. if they can provide an equivalent interior room, wheel size and trunk they can compete by selling higher trim levels. one thing which will help them is ANHC has a rather low set of eqpt and interior for a 10L car.

I dont think 100hp is too bad - the older honda civics in early 90s had around 90hp iirc, and had around 105hp
in late 90s, corolla used to be 120hp in 1997. cars have been increasing in size and hp - todays civics and corollas are a lot bigger than late 90s models.

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 05 Jan 2010 16:03

Singha wrote:Tata finally announces its XOVER as the ARIA -

http://www.autocarindia.com/news/aria-t ... -crossover

head-to-head vs Innova

Sir, with All Wheel Drive, ABS, Traction Control, 6 airbags, 140 bhp engine, all foldable seats, and much better interiors, its going to be a notch above Innova.

Here are some pics.

Interior design seems inspired from Land Rover.

Expected price is 11-13 lakhs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jan 2010 18:49

I wonder why the all-wheel drive for such a large vehicle. unless they give it a posche cayenne type 300hp+ engine and super sharp steering and suspension this thing (and innova) are not going to drive like a bmw.

they should go for a FWD, which will reduce the weight by 150kg and improve the
fuel economy, ... reduces cost also and less moving parts. will make it attractive intercity taxi and company taxi in which the innova has zero contestants now.

the plastics should be soft, like a girls skin to attract the people looking for a family hauler. maybe move the two captains seats in 2nd row together to the right, leaving
the entry to third row as permanently free. use some minivan innovations like under the floor storage spaces. get rid of the cheap looking seatback trays.

a car that costly needs to match the corolla/civic interior std.

these are all minor fixes except the FWD - I am sure a FWD is a must to be a
commercial bulk seller. they must already have something in works I hope.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jan 2010 18:51

for AWD bratboy sports wagon, they should lower the height, shorten the length a
bit, omit the third row and match the toyota Venza or volvo v70 type designs using a 200hp petrol engine and default stanley leather upholstery and 8 speaker sound system with in-dash 6 cd changer.

http://www.lemonfree.com/resources/wp-c ... _venza.jpg

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 06 Jan 2010 17:19

@Singha: My organization was involved in the creation and maintenance of the display zones of several auto majors - just back from AE this morning after 5 days spent on set-up, where I got a really good opportunity to touch-and-feel a lot of these cars.

Believe me, the Aria is something else. Yes, there are plenty of areas that could do with some work (seating space/ergonomics for one), but on the whole this car is like nothing any other Indian co. has done. The Xylo is great VFM, fully loaded etc., but looks like the illegitimate child of a Scorpio that rammed into the walrus that was s*cking itself (see Humour thread).

The Aria looks pretty hot, seriously. This baby is well-equipped and has something for everyone - families (relatively decent space), young hotshots (great looks) and pretty much everything in between.

I also got a chance to check out Tata's Prima range of trucks. This line is fruit of Tata's takeover of Daewoo's commercial vehicle division. Engines range from 210hp all the way up to 560hp! Mahindra Navistar has engine options up to 700hp, but those are screwdriver tech ToT, whereas Tata OWNS their powerplant tech.

There is clearly a LOT of innovation happening at Tata Motors, and the results are for all to see.

PS: TM was NOT one of our clients!

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 06 Jan 2010 17:44

All in all, AE 2010 has some interesting, some mundane, and some outright hilarious displays. Case in point: DC Designs. I cannot even begin to describe the monstrosities he's wrought. One such creature is an extended-wheelbase Tata Winger that has been converted to a Japanese retro-styled tribute to the VW Type 2 van. At least that's what it looks like to me.

Unfortunately pictures were a big no-no at that point, so am unable to (dis)grace BR's pages with visuals.

Hero Honda has a really impactful display - they have the new Karizma mounted inside a gyro that stands in the centre of the stall at a height of some 12 feet. And it turns.

Audi, Skoda and VW are utterly Germanic in their design: uncomplicated, open spaces and clean white lines, detracting nothing from the feast of metal on display. Audi's showcasing the 4.2V8 R8, the TT, and their answer to the MB CLS... BTW, even BMW showcased their Grande Tourer, which perhaps reveals that the CLS has successfully created an entirely new category.

Mahindra is showcasing an export only MM540 derivative called the Thar. Yokohama radials, bull bars, winch, no doors/roof, only roll bars, etc. etc. I asked about the AXE, but rep was like "Saar am SDRE rep onlee, Mahindra Defence stuff top secret onlee" and promptly scurried away.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jan 2010 21:35

yes I noticed in a prima film on tv today their biggest is 550hp. it will have high low end torque being a mining hauler type application.

the BMP and the AS90 SPG both have 550hp type engines. the T72 @ 750hp.

if we play cards right and engage/fund Telco for defence engines, some good things can emerge in 5 yrs.

we dont want to be buying Russian armour and engines till the end of time.

buying up a specialized gearbox maker like Renk would be good.

sinha · Post by **sinha** » 06 Jan 2010 23:15

Jaeger wrote:The Aria looks pretty hot, seriously. This baby is well-equipped and has something for everyone - families (relatively decent space), young hotshots (great looks) and pretty much everything in between.
There is clearly a LOT of innovation happening at Tata Motors, and the results are for all to see.

I did steal the show,, now wait for the pricing - if priced right will smash Innova out - unless it is riddled with unexplicible problems which come in Safari.

Jaeger wrote: Mahindra is showcasing an export only MM540 derivative called the Thar. Yokohama radials, bull bars, winch, no doors/roof, only roll bars, etc. etc.

The problem is they are only "showcasing" Thar for ages and not selling in India. Some folks like me got tired of waiting and got scorp 4wd in the meantime. and too much Bling Bling for all offroader's liking. That bull bar will be the first casualty on any OTR.

CalvinH · Post by **CalvinH** » 07 Jan 2010 00:35

Whats the engine performance of Aria vis a vis Innova?

bart · Post by **bart** » 07 Jan 2010 03:07

Jaeger wrote:
I also got a chance to check out Tata's Prima range of trucks. This line is fruit of Tata's takeover of Daewoo's commercial vehicle division. Engines range from 210hp all the way up to 560hp! Mahindra Navistar has engine options up to 700hp, but those are screwdriver tech ToT, whereas Tata OWNS their powerplant tech.

Are you sure about that? I thought those were Cummins engines.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 07 Jan 2010 05:25

The TATA entries at the auto expo look like state of the art vehicles. I was shocked/pleasantly surprised that they were made in India. I agree GD, the GOI should partner with TATA to free India from importing tank engines. If Renk were available it should be snapped up in an instant but I doubt the German gov't. would want India to have a Renk or MTU for commercial/competative reasons.

BTW the Mahindra entries are quite disappointing and have "third world" written all over them.

vina · Post by **vina** » 07 Jan 2010 07:09

they should go for a FWD, which will reduce the weight by 150kg and improve the
fuel economy, ... reduces cost also and less moving parts. will make it attractive intercity taxi and company taxi in which the innova has zero contestants now.

AWD will be an option only for top end versions I would think. The default will be 2 wd .

The more important question I have for knowledgable folks is this. Is the Aria a true cross over (ie based on a car like unibody) or a body on truck chassis like the Innova . If it is the former, the Aria will be among the likes of Honda CRV and Chevy SUV that competes with it that offer unibodies on MUV. If that is the case, it will easily out handle and out ride the Innova and will run circles around it as far as handling and ride comfort are concerend.

And of course, being unibody will weigh less than the Innova as well while meeting Euro crash levels. I doubt the Hi-Lux /Innova will have been engineered for First world level crash worthiness because that line is not sold in the global markets (US, EU and Japan) and Toyota will not have bothered with crash certifying to those levels.

All in all, with this feature list and finish quality, if the Aria is priced at or just below Innova levels, it is the beginning of "Sayonara" for Innova and Toyota better roll in better models from it's global portfolio at Indian prices rather than this Kaam Chalao excuse .

More improtantly, the Japanese have been "reluctant outsourcers" . They have not moved engineering to India. But with the cost of developing a new platform in Japan/US what it is, the Auto folks are going to have to move their basic engg / new platform development lock stock and barrel in future if the competition for India based guy s like Tata and soon Bajaj and I hope TVS as well intensify.

It has already happenened in small cars. Now for other segments. Hyundai i10 and Suzuki A -Star kind of runaway succeses in global markets where India is the sole production base has already made sure that India is the place to be to make small cars. If the engg moves here as well, it is absolutley great news.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 07 Jan 2010 08:14

There are underbody shots of the ARIA on TBHP. To my SDRE eye, it looks unibody onlee.
Image Here

vina · Post by **vina** » 07 Jan 2010 10:24

Dileep wrote:There are underbody shots of the ARIA on TBHP. To my SDRE eye, it looks unibody onlee.
Image Here

Nah.. It looks like body on frame to me. Look at the thick black member just above the tyre in the picture.

In fact, I am a bit disappointed with the rear suspension setup. The solid axle (but thankfully not leaf springs like traditional trucks) rear setup is definitely not the most cutting edge (Innova has exactly the same set up AFAIK). This one has big up-sprung weight (the entire differential will be a part of the suspension) Would have loved to see a more sophisticated set up even if not fully independent , at least a semi trailing link / twist beam like the Vista/Manza or maybe even a Di Dion suspension with differential fixed to the car body , even if they didn't want to go the unibody way and wanted the body on frame to get synergies between a true blue SUV (like the next Gen safari maybe) and the MUV.

I think it is a missed opportunity. They should have used the Vista platform after suitable modifications to come up with a true cross over (sort of like the Honda Accord, Odyssey and MDX thing) at an Innova price , that would have really landed a punch right on the jaws of the Japanese and maybe knocked them out.

This I am afraid is just a Tata replication of the Toyota IMV platform strategy. Doubt it will be able to be much better than the Innova in terms of weight and handling and ride. It will be very similar at best.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 07 Jan 2010 11:07

bart wrote:
Jaeger wrote:
I also got a chance to check out Tata's Prima range of trucks. This line is fruit of Tata's takeover of Daewoo's commercial vehicle division. Engines range from 210hp all the way up to 560hp! Mahindra Navistar has engine options up to 700hp, but those are screwdriver tech ToT, whereas Tata OWNS their powerplant tech.

Are you sure about that? I thought those were Cummins engines.

I could be wrong about this, but I heard somewhere (no references saar) that Tata Daewoo has their own line of engines.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jan 2010 13:23

yes the rear solid axle is same as innova.

the next step up would have been rear torsion beam of the type corolla uses.

the independent multilink trailing arm type seen on civic is the most complex and costly type at present maybe.

but for rough roads, solid rear axle seems to be best - no surprise trucks use them?

vina · Post by **vina** » 07 Jan 2010 20:59

Singha wrote:yes the rear solid axle is same as innova.

I googled around and checked. The "cross over" in the Aria is because "It offers a great mix of the comfort and theater seating of a MUV and the rough road capability and premium position of an SUV" according to Tata's Marketing speil. It does not refer to a car based platform. There are boasts that the chassis frames are hydro formed etc.. It is a body on frame beast like the Innova and I think a missed opportunity to thump the Japanese in a body blow.

From the pics Dileep posted, the Aria has a Live Axle anchored by a Panhard rod. Kind of okay performance, good packaging efficiency and cheap to make, robust..Downside is huge up spurng weight. The other cars a version of it , the beam axle are M800, Alto, Wagon R , Zen Estilo and Santro .. In Wagon R etc, it sucks big time and the A** of the car bounces around as if was a Paki kicked in the Musharraf.

the next step up would have been rear torsion beam of the type corolla uses.

True. Nearly every car (Swift, Ritz, getz, i10,i20, Vista, Ford Ikon, Fiesta, Linea, Punto, Skoda's small car, the upcoming Polo, Jazz, City, Logan, Chevy Spark, UVA , Corolla, etc.etc.. a really long list here.

the independent multilink trailing arm type seen on civic is the most complex and costly type at present maybe.

True. However, the most "popular" one on the road with this suspension is the outgoing Indica /Indigo series. Those had pretty decent ride and handling when compared to the usual crappy Maruti (except for the Swift and higher spec ones), in fact nearly the best in the Wagon R, Santro, Indica trio.

The other car which has it is the Mitsu Lancer. Pity they didnt follow it up with better models. But it handles and rides like a dream. My kid for instance gets motion sickness in most other cars (esp Wagon R , Indica etc) and starts throwing up. She doesn't get it in my car . Maybe the tall boy's with their higher ship like roll, induces that .

It is partly for that reason of suspension and VTEC engines and shape, the Honda Civics and Accords were always a bit more "sporty" than the equivalent Corolla and Camrys. In fact the older pre 2000 Civics had a cutting edge , unequal arm, independent front suspension, which got changed to a ho hum double wishbone based layout in the interest of packagaing and cost in the 2000 or so versions.

but for rough roads, solid rear axle seems to be best - no surprise trucks use them?

Sure. I can understand that and even if they had to use a semi independant design becauce of cost, rough road and packaging reasons they could have used better options like De Dion Axle or something similar.

But notice, that in most countries with even half way decent roads, even heavy trucks and buses dont use leaf springs in their solid axles anymore. The giant trucks etc (even the Volvo and general Ashok Leyland BMTC buses ) use air suspension. Other than say mining and off road vehicles like Ashok Leyland stallion for defense etc, as decent roads get built out, it will get phased out over the next 2 decades. I think using them in passenger vehicles in this day and age is criminal. We basically are using stuff meant for offroad use in every day road surfaces and putting up with atrocious ride comfort in everyday life in the process .

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jan 2010 21:21

santro back seat has one of the worst rides as the wheels are right below it.
when the rear wheel goes over any bump at speed the occupants are thrown up
near the roof. I feel the problem isnt as bad in M800 , Alto and Palio which I rode.

fortunately the roof is tall....for a 6 ft driver there is still 6" of clearance...so thoughtfool

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 11 Jan 2010 13:30

After checking out the new offerings at auotexpo, i think the best time to buy a new car is in mid-2011
By then most of the new concepts would be available in the market.

etios, Maruti Kizash, tata prima etc

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jan 2010 16:44

I agree. vw polo is drawing good reviews. both sedan (see vw brazil) and hatchback will be sold here.
by Feb2011, picture will be clear.

only hyundai plans for the outdated accent and elantra are not clear. do they think verna to have
replace both?

also maruti baleno replacement - what is the plan if any?

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 11 Jan 2010 17:13

^^ Baleno is not in production since 2007. It was replaced by SX4.

This is the new 2010 Elantra, to be launched worldwide. Already launched in some countries, including US. Though it is not being shown at the expo, but maybe they will launch it.

There was also some talk about launching i30 in India. But no news about it in the expo either.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jan 2010 19:03

very nice and loaded in the usa version per the website. the dashboard is taken as-is from the i30
on sale elsewhere...quite a good one.

this vehicle should be able to deal with the SX4 and Fiesta1.6 and compete strongly with the ANHC.

2.0 / 138hp engine replaced with a 1.5 / 120hp plant.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 11 Jan 2010 22:13

Funny look at Mumbai traffic from WSJ:
Mumbai's Messy Motorways

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Jan 2010 00:24

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?play=1&video=1384384284

http://www.cnbc.com/id/34840413/site/14 ... &par=yahoo