Discussion on Indian Special Forces

[somnath]

Covert Ops are a delightful intersection of intelligence and special forces, with primacy to the former...Most covert ops do not really need uber quality special forces personnel, they need resourceful intel agents..Even when the final execution requires special forces skills, the heavy lifting before that would be done by intel..

Kidnap of Adolf Eichman in Argentina, the operation to eliminate the Munich terrorists across Europe/Middle East, even our very own Bangladesh operation (before the war started) - primarily intel operation rather than "special forces" ones...

Our ability therefore to mount covert operations against jihadi groups is determined by the level of access and infiltration we have to these groups..Its the most difficult task, as the Americans are also realising...We most likely dont even have a general idea of where (say) a HAfiz Sayeed is - to mount a covert ops, we will need to get very specific info indeed..

[Amit J]

they have done it in Nepal from where quite a few were abducted in and were later released to the law enforcement agencies.

Errr..Nepal isnt also exactly a case of "operation in hostile land" since most of the operations were conducted with full involvement of the local agencies. Our sleuths didn't operate without knowledge of the host (in most cases) and most certainly didnt smuggle out the pigs without informing the locals, unlike the Israelis and Russians have done in the past.

Am not sure if we even have such capabilities since Pak is a different ballgame and is completely hostile to us(unlike Nepal).

I am not equating the territories merely stating that RAW is a capable organisation unlike a lot people who think that they are only paper tigers. Why we havent been able to eliminate Dawood ? It isnt like we are incapable ! That is the point. We can do things if we really put our capabilities to it. Its akin to sending a message that if you are involved in killing our citizens then we are capable of taking you out. The more inactive you are the more prone to further attacks you become. If i have to ask what are the credible results of 'bringing to justice' the perps of mass murders and other criminal attrocities in India are then there is not much we have done. Bombay Blasts, 26/11 etc etc, we havent been succesful in apprehending the master - brains of the ops. If the Israelis and russians can do it, also so does the US, why cant we. There shouldnt be a sense of impunity for such people

[Amit J]

Our ability therefore to mount covert operations against jihadi groups is determined by the level of access and infiltration we have to these groups..Its the most difficult task, as the Americans are also realising...We most likely dont even have a general idea of where (say) a HAfiz Sayeed is - to mount a covert ops, we will need to get very specific info indeed..

It aint easy, no doubt, but it isnt impossible. We havent captured or eliminated any of the big bad daddies of terror that i can recollect

[pgbhat]

Actually unkil/auntie use all those DA types only during invasions and middle of the wars. Bulk of work is seem to be done by CIA/SAD.
This is why RAW/SFF combo is so important.

[vasu_ray]

for every Indian soldier killed in sporadic border firing, take out a Paki post, GOI should treat their life with value by raising the cost

use aircraft delivered glide bombs/cluster munitions with 30-45km range to flatten terror camps across the LOC, these nut cases will be forced to trek at least 30kms inside TSP territory before reaching LOC instead of resting/waiting at staging areas that are 5-10 kms away from LOC

we have the capability to eavesdrop on the terrorists and their handlers conversation we can hijack it and have the terrorists expose themselves for snipers to take out, the handlers are improvising their instructions based on the situation causing more lives to be lost, the terrorists should be left to fend for themselves for most of their fighting time

all those sat phone masking towers close to the LOC need to be destroyed, isn't that strategic enough?

[NehraA]

Special Forces and intelligence operatives should focus on the perpetrators, planners, handlers of terrorist attacks in India either to capture or to eliminate. However not all terrorist camps are just tents and trenches, some are vast complexes those should be distroyed, wired and blown up. A terrorist infrastructures main element is the people behind it eliminate them.

you'r right, imtiaz gul has writen in his book about the sprawling JuD facility in muridke, he says they even have their own farms and fish farms. but that is in mainland TSP, the camps located near the LoC and IB are just for the purpose of transit and low grade ammo dumps . If i may say so, our intel agencies do not have the capability to carry out sabotage within these facilities, that is why hafiz saeed has perpetrated acts of war against india for the last two decades and we havnt been able to do any thing about it

[vasu_ray]

don't know about the moon terrain near bangalore, if ISRO develops rovers that can be remote controlled, they should use similar automatic rovers and with detailed terrain maps, these rovers can trek weeks at a time on the other side of LOC to blow up at designated compounds, in addition they can carry UAVs the size that are man launched for dealing with the 'last mile' problem

hopefully they are getting the Helina and its RPV platform ready, really 20 years is such a long time to realize this

one could also blow up a grenade laden toy sized helicopter in confined spaces to take out terrorists holed up instead of charging and risking lives, the terrorists cell phone emissions can be triangulated to sub meter accuracy and a button camera on the suicide toy heli can be used to navigate to reach the terrorist on call

[jamwal]

You wish

[somnath]

It aint easy, no doubt, but it isnt impossible. We havent captured or eliminated any of the big bad daddies of terror that i can recollect

It is more difficult than just being "difficult".. Its easier if the target is in either neutral or friendly territory (Adolf Eichman, Munich bombers), or leading a battle from a designated area in the conventional sense (Shamil Basayev)..It is mighty difficult if the target is embedded in a populated hostile, or even just an unfriendly territory..

Look at USA's record on getting anyone high ranking in the Al Qaeda in AfPak..Or even the fact that China has not been able to get rid of the Dalai Lama in all these years - surely not for the lack of intent!

Most intel literature show that infiltrating jihadi groups has been the single most difficlut challenge in HUMINT that the intel world has faced..Reasons are many - to start with, these groups do not conform to the traditional, known structures of organsiation and are more fluid and leave less "logisitical" tracks..

[Brando]

^^If getting into a Jehadi group is hard, RAW should just start its own jihadi group in POK by blowing up a few Pakistani army camps and ISI offices, hospitals, schools and mosques in Muzaffarabad or Saikot etc! The Taliban are seen as heros for doing the same, why not emulate them and create public anger against these people? Gain street cred with the mad mullahs and then infiltrate Let or Jaish or whatever and assassinate or bomb their top ideologues. The Israelis hunt people and NAZIs half way across the world ruthlessly without giving a damn about the host country or what people think. Why cant RAW kill a few illiterate savages with a few hundred kms of the LOC ? Hell, I bet if India paid enough money you could get some Pakistanis to attack these camps and kill those mullahs for us. There is no dearth of crazy people willing to die for a cause in Pakistan. Even that psychopath caught in Mumbai was sold as a slave in return for cash to the LeT by his own admission ! Islam is a mask, the real religion is always money and power, if RAW can exploit that, they have the mullah's killing each other for Kashmir instead of Indian soldiers.

[sunny y]

^^If getting into a Jehadi group is hard, RAW should just start its own jihadi group in POK by blowing up a few Pakistani army camps and ISI offices, hospitals, schools and mosques in Muzaffarabad or Saikot etc! The Taliban are seen as heros for doing the same, why not emulate them and create public anger against these people? Even that psychopath caught in Mumbai was sold as a slave in return for cash to the LeT by his own admission ! Islam is a mask, the real religion is always money and power, if RAW can exploit that, they have the mullah's killing each other for Kashmir instead of Indian soldiers.

Who knows RAW might be already doing that in Balochistan. But we have seen many times in the recent history that sooner or later your own dog is going to attack you. US supported Taliban & now see they are spending billions of dollars to fight the very same guys whose fathers & grandfathers were supported by US. Even the Pakis are learning this now.

As you said the real religion for these people is power & money, is there any guarantee that after say 10 years these people won't turn against India when they will be in a position to enjoy mass support. Why would they need India then ??

So I personally believe that supporting such jihadi groups is something that we shouldn't even think about doing. Jihadis might agree to work for India but they will do it for money. As soon as they get more lucrative offer they will stab you in the back. But if you have your own people, patriotism will be the main driving force not the money. We can have our own special teams specialised in assassination etc. Like in the case of Eichman it weren't some Israel supported insurgents who brought him to israel , they were Mossad agents.

In the end you cannot compare patriotism with money.

[Amit J]

It aint easy, no doubt, but it isnt impossible. We havent captured or eliminated any of the big bad daddies of terror that i can recollect

It is more difficult than just being "difficult"..

It aint impossible, tht is my point, and if it is impossible under current circumstances then change the circumstances, change the way the game is played, do out of the box stuff, bomb them, someone was talking payload laden rovers delivered by UAVs as surreal it sounds atleast someone is thinking out of the box and thinking positively, do something with credible positve results

[KiranM]

It is more difficult than just being "difficult"..

It aint impossible, tht is my point, and if it is impossible under current circumstances then change the circumstances, change the way the game is played, do out of the box stuff, bomb them, someone was talking payload laden rovers delivered by UAVs as surreal it sounds atleast someone is thinking out of the box and thinking positively, do something with credible positve results

This is not about writing a sequel to 'Lateral Thinking'. Assasinations and sabotage in foreign territory has far reaching geo-political consequences. India is not USA or Russia to act with impunity. Also India is not Israel to have USA as its sugar daddy to protect its interests.

[Amit J]

It aint impossible, tht is my point, and if it is impossible under current circumstances then change the circumstances, change the way the game is played, do out of the box stuff, bomb them, someone was talking payload laden rovers delivered by UAVs as surreal it sounds atleast someone is thinking out of the box and thinking positively, do something with credible positve results

This is not about writing a sequel to 'Lateral Thinking'. Assasinations and sabotage in foreign territory has far reaching geo-political consequences. India is not USA or Russia to act with impunity. Also India is not Israel to have USA as its sugar daddy to protect its interests.

So all we are going to do is build fences, kill the terrorists after they have killed 100 people, listen in on their handlers calmly telling the to "bring the woman to the door and shoot her thru the head making sure the bullet doesnt stay in her body"; pick up pieces of our countrymen after their railway coach was blown up; release as many dreaded terrorists as possible when our planes are hijacked and wait for them to commit all sorts of atrocities all over again. Why bother doing anything at all we have been doing all this for long. After something like 26/11 happens all we need to say is that the Spirit of Mumbai will survive

Do nothing at all - Why bother

Or

Dont care about the geo political issues - we can handle a war

And go do what needs to be done

[KiranM]

So all we are going to do is build fences, kill the terrorists after they have killed 100 people, listen in on their handlers calmly telling the to "bring the woman to the door and shoot her thru the head making sure the bullet doesnt stay in her body"; pick up pieces of our countrymen after their railway coach was blown up; release as many dreaded terrorists as possible when our planes are hijacked and wait for them to commit all sorts of atrocities all over again. Why bother doing anything at all we have been doing all this for long. After something like 26/11 happens all we need to say is that the Spirit of Mumbai will survive

Do nothing at all - Why bother

Or

Dont care about the geo political issues - we can handle a war

And go do what needs to be done

Bravo! Nice rousing speech. But the fact is, the folks who run the country do not have the cojones to sustain a covert war of assassinations and sabotage. Again read the word geo-politics. Until we grow a huge hairy pair, the few posts above are just wishful thinking. My last post on this 'debate'.

[Amit J]

So all we are going to do is build fences, kill the terrorists after they have killed 100 people, listen in on their handlers calmly telling the to "bring the woman to the door and shoot her thru the head making sure the bullet doesnt stay in her body"; pick up pieces of our countrymen after their railway coach was blown up; release as many dreaded terrorists as possible when our planes are hijacked and wait for them to commit all sorts of atrocities all over again. Why bother doing anything at all we have been doing all this for long. After something like 26/11 happens all we need to say is that the Spirit of Mumbai will survive

Do nothing at all - Why bother

Or

Dont care about the geo political issues - we can handle a war

And go do what needs to be done

Bravo! Nice rousing speech. But the fact is, the folks who run the country do not have the cojones to sustain a covert war of assassinations and sabotage. Again read the word geo-politics. Until we grow a huge hairy pair, the few posts above are just wishful thinking. My last post on this 'debate'.

I was talking about a course of action different to the ones we have been using to date so as to get better results. I did get a bit passionate, only to highlight the problem of not having credible results with the actions taken so far for bringing terrorists to justice. However it is obviously a strategic decision to be taken by the civilian leadership to be implemented by the intelligence agencies with the help of the SF. Perhaps it is time for our leaders to strap on pair. Good jousting

[vasu_ray]

In due course similar robotics stuff would be bought from Israel since they are ahead in the game, between now and then there will be x Indian soldiers dead fighting human robots from the Jihad factories Inc of TSP

x becomes a statistic for politics and additional man power recruitment

[jayaaren]

Good Day

Dear All,

i was wondering all this brouaha about our spec ops/covert ops capabilities. let's look at the following facts:
RAW on the face of it does not seem to have a SAD aka CIA
Our spec ops units - SF Bn, Marcos, SFF have on the face of it never been trained to operate in covert roles
We do not have the political if not military will to initiate and carry out covert ops

as for the israeli model of ops, we need dedicated intel & spec ops assets trained to execute rapier precision strikes. once we go down this line we are talking about a whole lot of assets, some of which are the following:
NSA modeled signit
NMA modeled mapping
USAF SOW modeled units for transportation, refuleling and air cover
USA 160th SOAR modeled assets for infiltration, resupply, evac & air support
a long equipment, clothing, weapons & ammo list that would fill volumes of books

we have these - may sound utopian and pronto we can prevail

[Singha]

equipment and people are not issues in india. lack of political direction to unleash mayhem is.

north korea is a good example

[Amit J]

Good Day
Our spec ops units - SF Bn, Marcos, SFF have on the face of it never been trained to operate in covert roles

Our special forces have been trained to operate behind enemy lines, they might not be trained to be spies - sure. But they can undertake covert roles. They are trained to do irregular activities, sabotage, snatch and grab ops etc etc. The SF Paras, the MARCOs the SFF can do such stuff. BTW the SFF takes care of the role for RAW that SAD plays for the CIA, except that SFF has other roles as well

[Gaur]

Good Day
Our spec ops units - SF Bn, Marcos, SFF have on the face of it never been trained to operate in covert roles

Heard about SG? Read SFF page on BR.

[sum]

i was wondering all this brouaha about our spec ops/covert ops capabilities. let's look at the following facts:
RAW on the face of it does not seem to have a SAD aka CIA
Our spec ops units - SF Bn, Marcos, SFF have on the face of it never been trained to operate in covert roles
We do not have the political if not military will to initiate and carry out covert ops

Actually, i would assume we are capable of all that and more militarily but the civilians and babus controlling them and who are supposed to give orders to them do not have the required strategic knowledge and b@lls...

[somnath]

^^^There are two aspects in covert ops - the first and most important of course is political will..The next is capability..Not just tactical (training of troops, equipment quality etc) but also strategic, ie, structure, doctrine et al..The latter should define the former ideally..

Unfortunately the services themselves have operated in silos..First up, there wasnt even a recognition, till maybe very recently on the need to treat SFs differently. Most IA officers thought that the SF are glorified infantry, and used them as such..Then, despite some "paper movement" in recent times, the SFs develop in stand-alone silos for all three services..The IAF did the unprecedented thing of asking for volunteers for the Garud force through newspaper ads! Special ops is one area where jointsmanship is blindingly obvious - but we are nowhere close to a special ops command even 20 years after the Pak-sponsored insurgency started in Kashmir..

What we therefore have are piecemeal equipment procurement...So C130Js are ordered, ostensibly for special ops, and there is already talk of them being replacement for the declining numbers of IL76s in the fleet! therefore such equipment acquisition dont add up to fundamental shifts in capabilities, at least not in the same measure as they would when implemented as a part of joint strategy..

[AnimeshP]

^^^There are two aspects in covert ops - the first and most important of course is political will..The next is capability..Not just tactical (training of troops, equipment quality etc) but also strategic, ie, structure, doctrine et al..The latter should define the former ideally..

Unfortunately the services themselves have operated in silos..First up, there wasnt even a recognition, till maybe very recently on the need to treat SFs differently. Most IA officers thought that the SF are glorified infantry, and used them as such..Then, despite some "paper movement" in recent times, the SFs develop in stand-alone silos for all three services..The IAF did the unprecedented thing of asking for volunteers for the Garud force through newspaper ads! Special ops is one area where jointsmanship is blindingly obvious - but we are nowhere close to a special ops command even 20 years after the Pak-sponsored insurgency started in Kashmir..

What we therefore have are piecemeal equipment procurement...So C130Js are ordered, ostensibly for special ops, and there is already talk of them being replacement for the declining numbers of IL76s in the fleet! therefore such equipment acquisition dont add up to fundamental shifts in capabilities, at least not in the same measure as they would when implemented as a part of joint strategy..

Somnath ... I am curios to know as to what exactly will be the role of the "special ops command" be in case it does come up?

[Dmurphy]

Indian SF in American plans to take out Paki nuke sites?

Ajai Shukla's post

The United States, according to credible recent press reports, is training Special Forces to “grab” Pakistan’s nuclear weapons if they seem about to fall into terrorist hands. And if the Indian Army is to play a role in the operations, here is how it might play out.


While US Special Forces are heli-dropped onto known Pakistani nuclear missile sites, and the US Air Force suppresses Pakistan’s air defences, the IAF’s newly acquired C-130J Hercules aircraft take off from Udhampur, flying Indian commandos to an unused airstrip near Kahuta which American Green Berets have temporarily secured. The Hercules’ electronic jammers blind Pakistani radars before entering Pakistani airspace; the Green Berets give the all-clear to the airborne Indian commander on secret frequencies that cannot be intercepted or jammed.


The Hercules lands in pitch darkness, satellite navigation directing the aircraft precisely to the landing site. Indian assault teams spill out to secure and deactivate the endangered nukes.

[ashish raval]

^^ very few people in Pakistan knows the exact location/s of Paki nuke bum ! Certainly not the Americans. They might have dispersed it at various locations even friendly nations is a possibility.

[Riza Zaman]

Indian SF in American plans to take out Paki nuke sites?

Ajai Shukla's post

The United States, according to credible recent press reports, is training Special Forces to “grab” Pakistan’s nuclear weapons if they seem about to fall into terrorist hands. And if the Indian Army is to play a role in the operations, here is how it might play out.

Mr. Shukla is fantasizing. I don't even know where to start with punching holes in his little daydream.

(a) The US would never mount a SF op with so many complexities. They learned well from eagle claw, urgent fury, gothic serpent, etc. - they keep their SF ops simple.
(b) pak nukes aren't concentrated in one centralized location (at least 6 different locations from what I've read) so the US would have to conduct multiple / simultaneous SF ops. Keep in mind that this would also involve SEAD at all those locations. Operational / tactical / logistical nightmare
(c) There is no reason to involve IAF / IA when they have enough SF of their own
(d) There is no advantage to be had by involving India. Even geographic proximity is hardly a factor given the US presence in Afghanistan.
(e) Why give up an ideal ingress route thru the Afpak border given it's terrain and comparatively few air defense sites?
(f) I could go on, but what's the point

[NehraA]

I could go on, but what's the point

i totaly agree with u,IMO its more about the CISMOA & LSA... Mr.Gates to AK47 ANTONY -"well if xyz scenario arises we might take u along, but since u havent signed Cismoa things might get messy... So if u want to consider the invitation to denuke pak..we might have to get a bit of paperwork done "....hahahaha

[Ankit Desai]

Coastal commandos for Bengal



A senior official at Writers' said.

The first batch of four teams (30 each) has been training under the Marcos at Vizag since September last year, so that they would be ready by Republic Day,"

Ankit

[sumshyam]

Terror strike: In 30 mins, NSG will be airborne

26/11 Mumbai attack, the National Security Guard (NSG) commandos sent out to combat it would be airborne within 30 minutes.

The home ministry has finalised a new standard operating procedure detailing just how this should be done.

The NSG took seven hours to reach Mumbai when 26/11 occurred, underlining their lack of preparedness for such an attack. This won’t happen again.

The new rules authorise the security establishment to requisition even commercial aircraft, if required, to fly at the earliest to the terror spot. Agreements have been worked out with all local airlines.

“The government has taken all measures to ensure commandos are ferried to an attack site as swiftly as possible. We can get cracking within half an hour of receiving orders,” said NSG director general NPS Aulakh.

The ministry also plans to buy dedicated helicopters for the NSG, which too would help cut down response time. Till now, the NSG depended on agencies like the Border Security Force and the Aviation Research Centre. The requisitioning process took time.

Airport and aviation authorities have also appointed nodal officers for the NSG to coordinate with if a terror crisis arises.

[sum]

If anyone noticed the SPG/black suited secret service style beefcakes of xxx agency lurking around in the R-Day parade, all of them seemed to wear a star on their coat lapel. Is that some sort of identification mark for the SPG folks and like a badge to be worn on plain clothes?

[RameshC]

Mr. Shukla is fantasizing. I don't even know where to start with punching holes in his little daydream.

(a) The US would never mount a SF op with so many complexities. They learned well from eagle claw, urgent fury, gothic serpent, etc. - they keep their SF ops simple.
(b) pak nukes aren't concentrated in one centralized location (at least 6 different locations from what I've read) so the US would have to conduct multiple / simultaneous SF ops. Keep in mind that this would also involve SEAD at all those locations. Operational / tactical / logistical nightmare
(c) There is no reason to involve IAF / IA when they have enough SF of their own
(d) There is no advantage to be had by involving India. Even geographic proximity is hardly a factor given the US presence in Afghanistan.
(e) Why give up an ideal ingress route thru the Afpak border given it's terrain and comparatively few air defense sites?
(f) I could go on, but what's the point [/quote]

Well never say never...the biggest threat if nuke armed pak dis-integrates is to the Us and India and hence a joint special ops between US and India is not too far fetched. Both US and India take their safety very seriously.

[kaangeya]

Riza
(f) I could go on, but what's the point

If nothing woolly headed corny yarns like this one need to be spiked

...the IAF’s newly acquired C-130J Hercules aircraft take off from Udhampur, flying...

So the Indian armed forces will hatch eggs until we acquire a new troop carrier from Massaland? What malarkey!

[k prasad]

X-posted from Military pics thread: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 33#p769733

Refer the pic above ^^^

I have a question for the Gurus here.
I saw on TV today, NSG guards protecting Mulayam Yadav. They had their MP5 barrels pointing skywards. Whereas in the above pic, you have armed personnel, with the same gun, pointing downwards.

What is correct? What the logic behind the two different stances?

I am not a guru but standard gun discipline is that the gun has to be pointed beyond 45 degrees from the horizontal unless there is an intention to shoot. Hence both stances are correct. This is no ensure there is no danger of causalities due to accidental discharge.

Two things... pointing the barrel downwards might cause richocheting bullets to injure people around in case of accidental injury. Pointing it skyward in case of being outdoors is safer, as long as no ones head comes in the way... something i have noticed among Naval V&B teams, but this may be an error on my part.

I do remember however in the Mission Navy episode where cadets were firing live ammo on a ship deck that the instructor took a PYT's case when her barrel drooped, and pointed down. He immediately jumped in with a massive roar and got that piece of metal to point straight.

[Raja Bose]

Found a random amateur clip on YouTube:

[mmasand]

HK MP7 and what seemed like a variant of an M16 rifle spotted with Force One commandos outside Juhu Aerodrome for rahul baba's visit.Whoever said that Force One was exclusive and free of political interference.Must say that their fatigues were shabby and wrinkled,not to mention ill fitting.

[Ajay K]

Folks, its official now that Garuds are glorified body guards of the IAF !!
Like the black cats guard our babus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBm2fTbmBbc

[Shameek]

Folks, its official now that Garuds are glorified body guards of the IAF !!
Like the black cats guard our babus.

What exactly do you mean by that? Those are Aero India pics as far as I can tell. I dont see any in specific SPGesque roles.

[Craig Alpert]

Folks, its official now that Garuds are glorified body guards of the IAF !!
Like the black cats guard our babus.

What exactly do you mean by that? Those are Aero India pics as far as I can tell. I dont see any in specific SPGesque roles.

^^ In addition, there are pics from Red Flag 08 as well... I don't see any Garuds "guarding a neta" or a "significant person of interest."
The Garuds were created to strike Behind Enemy Lines, and provide air defence!!!! Please elaborate on how you see them being misused to guard the babus!!!

[Lalmohan]

rameshc - there is a variant on the scenario... if pak forces are busy watching somewhere else and perhaps even the eggs are being moved from the nest... does it not make them far more accessible to unkil's watching eyes and grabbing claws?