Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) - Dec 30 - 2009

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 14 Jan 2010 13:24

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Much of the criticism over this sort of stuff comes from within the Hindu community. It is rare that a Non-Hindu comments, internally or externally.

New York Times and US State Dept (e.g. Strobe Talbott) have often offered negative comments on India's society/policies.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jan 2010 14:13

times now was showing the aman ki asha loathesome ad.

ticker at bottom said "BSF arrests 15 yr old lashkar suicide bomber near wagah border"

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 14 Jan 2010 14:15

Hakimullah reported killed in Waziristan missile attack

http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=96106

Chief of Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) Hakimullah Mehsud has been reportedly killed in a drone attack in North Waziristan, unconfirmed media reports said on Thursday.

Senior journalist Rahimullah Yousufzai while talking to Geo News said reports from some sources said Hakimullah Mehsud was present in the area at the time of attack and there are conflicting reports about his killing. The Taliban sources have denied the reports.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jan 2010 14:38

The statements in the Declaration at the just concluded India-Pakistan Peace Conference {Jan 10-12, 2010, New Delhi} can be classified under five broad categories as follows:

Exhort India to make concessions
Wherever possible, treat India and Pakistan as equals (example, terrorism, hate speech, curriculum)
Remain completely silent on Pakistan's atrocities.
Give free advice to India
Make insidious attempts to extract more concessions for Pakistan

Category 1. Exhortations to India

3 B. India must unilaterally open the borders to further facilitate border trade.
3 D. India must take initiative to build the trade between the two countries and with the rest of South Asia.{Why bring in the rest of South Asia in an India-Pakistan Peace Conference ? This is to paint India as a villain for all countries of the region.}
4 F. The Indian government should repeal the Armed forces Special Powers Act.
4 D. Strengthening of democratic institutions and establish an independent tribunal to ensure Article 370 for Kashmir. Reinstate Article 370 in its original form as a step towards building confidence and goodwill.{Nothing is needed on the PoK side where there is no democracy, the so-called Prime Ministers of PoK are appointed whimsically by the President of Pakistan, where non-Kashmiris are settled as a matter of state policy etc.}
4 E. Allow Kashmiris to live and work in Pakistan if they wish.
11 C. India should assist Pakistan to develop a low carbon strategy and facilitate the transfer of
regenerative technologies to Pakistan

Category 2. Equality

2 A. Both countries should work together to counter terrorism and fundamentalism which are common challenges.
4 B. Firstly both India and Pakistan must jointly agree to de-militarize Jammu & Kashmir.
5 G. Revision of curricula in both countries to encourage friendship, not hate.

Category 3. Equality
There is absolutely no mention of terrorism inflicted on India, not even a mention of non-state actors lest it offends Pakistani sensibilities.

7 . Roll back on the nuclear program in both countries to establish a nuclear free South Asia and cooperate jointly towards global disarmament.
10 A. Reduce military spending by at least 10% per year, . . .

Category 4. Free Advice to India

1 D. There should be coordination amongst the various ministries of the government of India involved and concerned with India-Pakistan relations and policy.
4 F. Protect the interests of minorities in J&K.Take the opinions and aspirations of people in all areas in J&K when working out solutions.{No mention of massacre of Shias in Balawaristan ? More likely, the Conference deferred to Pakistani sensibilities once again and considered Balawaristan as not part of J&K at all}

Category 5. Attempts to extract benefits & concessions from India

5 B. The flow of information, software, know-how, knowledge {as all these could only flow from India to Pakistan} should be opened up.
6 D. Free exchange of scholars, students and technical experts {Scholars & Technical Experts will go from India and Terrorists will come from Pakistan under the garb of Students}
9 A. Joint management of water resources
9 B. Revisit the Indus Water Treaty in the light of new factors like climate change and its implications based on the principles of equitable sharing rather than division of waters.{Already Pakistan gets 142 Million Acre Feet, or MAF, and India 33 MAF. What more equitable distribution is expected ? The Indians who signed this declaration have been inimical to Indian interests}
11 C. Joint approaches towards transfer of technology on renewable energy, adaptation and mitigation. {What can TSP bring to the table in these areas ? Zilch, nada, Big ZERO.}

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 14 Jan 2010 14:46

SSridhar wrote:The India must unilaterally open the borders[/b] to further facilitate border trade.[*]

Pakistanis keep saying that India is full of slums and poor people. Then why should India unilaterally open her borders?

It appears that Indian participants in this conference were completely retarded.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 14 Jan 2010 14:48

SSridhar wrote:The statements in the Declaration at the just concluded India-Pakistan Peace Conference {Jan 10-12, 2010, New Delhi}

This is a charade. Somehow I wish that whatever BIG the Army thinks pakis are upto,pakis better try it. That way atleast all this snakeshit can end.Whatever it is, I dont want our Army to look as a paranoid peace stallers.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jan 2010 14:48

Don't know if this old report was earlier posted,but the TSP top dogs are sure enjoying life in true sub-continental style while the state crumbles around them!

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... ory--bi-10

Gwadar gala most expensive in country’s history
By Khaleeq Kiani
Friday, 01 Jan, 2010

Prime Minister Gilani had flown from Islamabad one day ahead of the meeting on a special C-130 plane, along with more than 80 officials and about two dozen media personnel.—Photo by APP Front Page
Case registered against held US consulate employees Case registered against held US consulate employees ISLAMABAD: The federal cabinet meeting held on Wednesday on a Navy ship anchored near the Gwadar port is estimated to have cost the nation over Rs5 million, making it the most expensive cabinet meeting in the country’s history.

It was held just 10 days after the government had approved austerity measures to reduce its expenditure.

“This indicates how seriously Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani and members of his cabinet take their own decisions and how they are going to give up their elitist lifestyle,” a senior official of the Ministry of Finance told Dawn.

He said the ministry did not know exactly how much had been spent on the cabinet meeting because provincial governments, federal ministries and departments used their own resources for travelling, lodging, boarding and other expenses.

However, he said that according to a safe estimate the meeting must have cost the national exchequer more than Rs5 million in just two days.

About 200 government leaders and officials, including the prime minister and his entourage, federal and provincial ministers and chief ministers and their secretaries and supporting staff, travelled by air from the four provincial capitals and Islamabad to attend the meeting.

Other officials suggest that the expenditure on the joyride was even higher.

The government’s objective to sign a consensus NFC award could have been better served had the meeting been held in Quetta at a much lower cost and higher political benefits.

Interestingly, only a day after the Arabian Sea cabinet meeting, the federal government notified formation of a high-powered committee headed by Finance Minister Shaukat Tarin to ensure implementation of the austerity measures approved by the cabinet on Dec 17.

When contacted, Mr Tarin declined to comment on the austerity measures and expenses incurred on the cabinet meeting held on board PNS Babar. He, however, said that a “strong booster” was required to make the government give up its princely lifestyle and implement the austerity measures.

Information Minister Qamar Zaman Kaira did not respond to calls and text messages seeking his comments.

Informed sources said that Prime Minister Gilani had flown from the federal capital one day ahead of the meeting on a special C-130 plane, along with more than 80 officials and about two dozen media personnel.

The prime minister’s own team comprised about 10 personal security staff and 12 civil and military secretaries and physicians. A number of other media teams travelled from Karachi and Quetta to cover the signing ceremony of the NFC award and the cabinet meeting.

The chief ministers travelled with equally strong ancillary staff. The federal and provincial finance ministries had brought with them their own teams.

Besides, a large number of officials and personnel of intelligence and security agencies had taken over the entire area much ahead of the cabinet meeting or arrival of the prime minister.

It was for the first time that Gwadar Pearl Continental Hotel had hosted such a large number of guests since its completion a few years ago. The only five-star hotel in Gwadar has 94 rooms all of which had been booked for the prime minister’s entourage.

For some cynics in the government it was sort of a picnic on the shores of Gwadar arranged in the name of a cabinet meeting.

An official of the hotel said that previously only two floors of the hotel were operational, but because of the prime minister’s visit two more floors were opened. The normal rate of a room in the hotel ranges between Rs10,500 and Rs15,000 per day.

Six-course meals were served to guests staying at the hotel and in navy residences, government rest-houses and other hotels around the port.

This was a glaring deviation from one of the austerity measures approved by the cabinet that allows only one dish at lunches and dinners.

An official said that an unfortunate accident took place when a journalist staying close to a high-tension transmission line was seriously injured because of electric shock and he had to be flown to Karachi for treatment.

Tags: Gwadar,Navy ship,gwadar cabinet meeting

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Jan 2010 14:59

abhishek_sharma wrote
SSridhar wrote:
The India must unilaterally open the borders[/b] to further facilitate border trade.[*]
Pakistanis keep saying that India is full of slums and poor people. Then why should India unilaterally open her borders?

It appears that Indian participants in this conference were completely retarded.

See this where I have the problem, nobody would do this to thier country.

Why is so difficult that the WKK group is nothing but representatives of foreign interests and they get paid for it. Many of the WKK have thier children settled in countries which they consider as thier homeland and have Visa arrangements to the flee the country if the manage to bring it to the state of Congo, Sierra Leone or Angola in Africa which seems to be thier main aim.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 14 Jan 2010 15:05

Gagan wrote:If this threat is credible, before this got leaked to the press, you can bet there are sky marshals on the flights.

The question is how many sky marshals can India put in the air. My guess is that they'll be on the major routes connecting the metros only, since these are high value targets. Although the frisking at Indian airports makes flight in India very safe.

There are quite a number of them deployed.

Most are fairly easily identified because our [deleted] cabin crew treat them very differently.

They are often denied food and drink and treated like menial staff.

Little realising that when push comes to shove it is these guys who will pull their collective musharrafs out of the fire.

That's our class system for you.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 14 Jan 2010 15:09

Aditya_V wrote:
See this where I have the problem, nobody would do this to thier country.

Why is so difficult that the WKK group is nothing but representatives of foreign interests and they get paid for it. Many of the WKK have thier children settled in countries which they consider as thier homeland and have Visa arrangements to the flee the country if the manage to bring it to the state of Congo, Sierra Leone or Angola in Africa which seems to be thier main aim.

Similarly, since Pakistanis claim that their race is "martial race", therefore they should cut their military budget and destroy their nuclear weapons. If India's military budget is 10 times more than theirs, then we would be in comparable position.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 14 Jan 2010 15:11

The behavior of these WKK & elites stems from a fervent & deep rooted desire to be accepted by the west as their own. No need to dig deep into the dictionary to explain their actions. They act like west appointed neutral observers in South Asia, who do not treat India as their motherland. They will look at the rest of the Indians who do not share the same pedestal of class with them, with disgust & shame. Whenever an Indo-Pak piss summit happens, these non-state actors behave completely neutral, so there is nobody left to pitch for India's interests while these 'westerners' will agree to anything that the Pakis want to put into the agenda. The difference between the RAPE & Indian WKK elite is that the RAPE wants to be accepted by the Arabs, so India is a legitimate target, and the WKKs want to be accepted by the West & defending India is a self goal as far as that is concerned. Jmtc.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 14 Jan 2010 15:14

There's a list of participants in the conference here -

http://focusweb.org/india-pakistan-conf ... l?Itemid=1

PROGRAMME DETAILS
India Pakistan Conference – A Road map towards Peace
Auditorium, India International Centre, New Delhi

10th - 12th January, 2010
10th January

09.00 – 10.00
Registration

10:00 – 10.30
Welcome & Inaugural

Kuldip Nayar (Chairperson, Organizing Committee & Veteran Journalist)
10.30 – 1145
A Road map towards Peace

Aitzaz Ahsan (Former President, Supreme Court Bar Association, Pakistan)
Mehbooba Mufti (President – People’s Democratic Party)
Admiral L. Ramdas (Former Chief of Naval Staff, Indian Navy)
Mani Shankar Aiyar (Former Union Minister)
Chair: Seema Mustafa (Senior Journalist)

11.45 – 12.30
Questions, Comments, Discussions

12.30 –13.30
Lunch

13.30 – 15.00
Peace and Security in South Asia

Iqbal Haider (Former Law Minister, Pakistan)
Salman Haider (Former Foreign Secretary, India)
Kamal Chenoy (Prof. of International Relations, JNU)
Chair: A. H. Nayar (Physicist & peace activist, Islamabad)

15.00 – 16.00
Questions, Comments, Discussions

16.00 – 16.30
Tea

18.00 – 20.00
Book release “Bridging Partition: People's initiatives for peace between India and Pakistan”

Edited by Smitu Kothari, Zia Mian, Kamla Bhasin, A.H. Nayar and Mohd. Tahseen at India Islamic Cultural Center

India Pakistan Conference – A Road map towards Peace
Auditorium, India International Centre, New Delhi

10th - 12th January, 2010
11th January
09.30 – 11.45
Issue of Autonomy: Balochistan
Asma Jehangir (Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, UN special rapporteur on freedom of religion & belief)
Malik Siraj Akbar (Senior Journalist, Quetta, Pakistan)
Bizenjo Hasil Khan, (Senator, Balochistan, Pakistan)

10.30-11.45
Issue of Autonomy: Kashmir
Yasin Malik (Leader, JKLF)
Sajjad Lone (President, Peoples Conference)
Chair: Rajendra Sacchar (Retd. Chief Justice, Delhi High Court & PUCL)

11.45 – 12.30
Questions, Comments, Discussions
12.30 –13.30
Lunch

13.30 – 14.30
Climate Change and its impact on Indo-Pak Relations
Dr. Abid Suleri (Executive Director, Sustainable Development Policy Institute, Pakistan)
Dr. Vandana Shiva (Founder, Navdanya)
Farooq Tariq (Spokesperson, Pakistan Labour Party)
Amb. Chandrashekhar Dasgupta (Distinguised Fellow, TERI)

Chair : Lalita Ramdas (Chair of the Green Peace International Board)

14.30 – 15.00
Questions, Comments, Discussions
15.00 – 16.15
Trade as an instrument of peace
Muchkund Dubey (Former Foreign Secretary, India)
Ravi Wig (Chairman SAARC, ASSOCHAM)
Akbar Zaidi (Leading Pakistani Economist)

Chair: Dr. Biswajit Dhar (Director General, Research and Information Systems for Developing Countries)

16.15 – 17.00
Questions, Comments, Discussions

17.00-17.30
Tea
India Pakistan Conference – A Road map towards Peace
Auditorium, India International Centre, New Delhi

10th - 12th January, 2010
12th January
09.30 – 11.30
Militancy, joint mechanism and role of the US
Amitabh Mattoo (Prof. International Politics, JNU & Member of the National Knowledge Commission)
Ayesha Siddiqa (Security Analyst, Strategic Affairs Columnist, Pakistan)
Rajiv Sikri (Former Secretary, MEA, India)
Sajjad Lone (President, Peoples Conference)

Chair :
11.30 – 12.30
Questions, Comments, Discussions

12.30 –13.30
Lunch
13.30 – 14.45
Media & Culture in War and Peace

B. Murlidhar Reddy (Journalist , The Hindu , based in Sri Lanka)
Liaqat Ali Toor (Journalist, Associated Press of Pakistan, based in Delhi)
Kuldip Nayar (Veteran Journalist)
Mahesh Bhatt (Film Maker)
Madeeha Gauhar (Theatre Director and Women Rights’ Activist, Pakistan)
Chair: Ved Bhasin (Editor, Kashmir Times)

14.45 – 15.30
Questions, Comments, Discussions
15.30 – 17.00
Declaration & plan of action
Chair : Kamla Bhasin (Peace, Human & Women Rights activist)
Organisations :

ANHAD, Centre for Policy Analysis, COVA, Hyderabad, Focus on the Global South, India, Heinrich Boell Stiftung, Hind-Pak Dosti Manch, Peace Mumbai, Sangat, South Asian Peace Alliance, South Asians for Human Rights

ANHAD is run by Shabnam Hashmi

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 14 Jan 2010 15:22

One would expect that Admiral L. Ramdas (Former Chief of Naval Staff, Indian Navy) , Salman Haider (Former Foreign Secretary, India) and Muchkund Dubey (Former Foreign Secretary, India) would know about Pakistan's kundali and speak about it.

What happened to these gentlemen?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Jan 2010 15:22

Birds of same feather flock together, Hmmm, SO Mr. Rajendra Sachar is so open about what he is?... Suprising no A Roy, B Dhutt, Sardesai(represented by key Anchor's Father in law), J Anand, T Sevtalnand, Karat, N Das,Aktar &Co.

That would have made the whole family more complete.

The whole group knows what Pakistan is about but they know they are selling poison to India- a country which is not thiers, so they are happy to do it.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jan 2010 15:23

There are mostly known WKKs there. No wonder there is Ramdas and his wife chairing sessions. I am also surprised to see some other big, distinguished names. It will be interesting to know if they subscribe to the Joint declaration and if so, we should question them. However much one hopes to the contrary, such SeS-like declarations slowly and surely pull the rug under our feet.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jan 2010 15:27

More on the CIA's misfortune and sly Paki glee at that event.

Low blow for the CIA By Mahir Ali
Wednesday, 13 Jan, 2010 What the CIA really needs to worry about is the relative ease with which an individual clad in low-tech weaponry was able to strike such a devastating blow against an agency with the latest technology at its command. –File Photo Seldom before has the Central Intelligence Agency experienced such a lethal dose of blowback. The earliest reports following a suicide bombing at Forward Operating Base Chapman in Khost on Dec 30 suggested eight fatalities among agency operatives.

That would have made it the deadliest attack since the same number of CIA officers were killed when the US embassy in Beirut was bombed back in 1983.

The Afghan Taliban were quick to claim that the perpetrator was an officer of the Afghan National Army.

As the picture became clearer (although several aspects of it remain hazy), several intriguing details began to emerge. The deceased, it turned out, included five bona fide CIA employees plus two men hired from Xe, the firm better known as Blackwater. The eighth victim was an officer of Jordan’s General Intelligence Directorate — and a distant cousin of King Abdullah.

Captain Sharif Ali bin Zeid was apparently “running” Humam Khalil Abu Mulal al-Balawi, the Jordanian doctor of Palestinian origin who evidently gained access to the base without being searched. (Although CIA chief Leon Panetta has said that Balawi was about to be searched when he blew himself up, that seems unlikely on the face of it, given that he managed to murder relatively senior agents without harming any of the guards on the periphery of the base.)

The encounter was not unplanned on the CIA’s side. In fact, it was rather tantalised by the prospect: the agency’s deputy chief of mission had arrived from Kabul specifically for a purpose, and the White House had been informed. Balawi had purportedly claimed that he had lately met Al Qaeda’s deputy head Ayman al-Zawahiri and wished to convey information on his whereabouts.

Not surprisingly, Al Qaeda too claimed credit for the attack, followed by the Pakistani Taliban — whose version of events was buttressed by a video dated Dec 20 that showed Balawi fraternising with Hakeemullah Mehsud and vowing vengeance for the killing of Baitullah Mehsud last August by a missile fired from a CIA drone.

Following the Chapman base attack, the CIA too promised to exact revenge, and drone strikes have been stepped up in the past fortnight.

It is presumably no coincidence that the base was used to gather information employed in choosing targets for drone attacks, although its focus was on the Haqqani network in North Waziristan. Of course, that’s where the Mehsud Taliban have been driven in the wake of the Pakistan Army’s operation in South Waziristan. Has this helped to tighten the nexus between the militant factions? Was the Balawi operation a joint venture? Did Al Qaeda chip in?

Whether or not he met al-Zawahiri, Balawi wasn’t clueless about Al Qaeda — reports suggest that for about a year he had been feeding Sharif Ali fairly accurate information about low-level operatives. But, although he has been described as a double or even a triple agent, his final act suggests he never had any doubt about which side he was on. And chances are that Baitullah Mehsud was incidental to his incendiary resolve.

Balawi was arrested in Jordan, apparently on the basis of his contributions to jihadist websites, during Israel’s assault on Gaza last year, but released after three days. Whereupon he left for Pakistan. Which isn’t a good sign these days. It’s unclear whether he was let off lightly by the Jordanians and allowed to travel because he had promised to spy for them and their American friends, although that seems likely.

What he did thereafter, where he went, whether he travelled back to Jordan in the interim, and whether he had any previous direct contact with the CIA — all that is so far a mystery. Amman could probably shed some light on some of these areas, but it is being characteristically coy.

Although close collaboration between Jordan’s intelligence services and the secret police on the one hand and American agencies on the other is hardly a secret, with Jordan having served as a destination for rendition flights and a torture site for their occupants, Abdullah’s government is understandably not keen to publicise the more sordid aspects of its relationship with the US. (It has claimed that Sharif Ali was in Afghanistan as part of a “humanitarian mission”.)

Chances are the CIA will henceforth be a little more wary about Jordanian tips and informants, but what it really needs to worry about is the relative ease with which an individual clad in low-tech weaponry was able to strike such a devastating blow against an agency with the latest technology at its command. The loss of life has also entailed a loss of intelligence: for instance the Khost base chief, one of two women killed in the explosion, was a veteran of the CIA’s Al Qaeda-tracking Alec Station who reportedly boasted an encyclopaedic knowledge of its top leadership.

But well before George Bush’s war on terror thrust it into a particularly nasty role, the CIA had been involved in activities that extended beyond espionage and intelligence analysis, ranging from assassination programmes to the routine destabilisation of governments deemed to be inadequately subservient to Washington’s diktat.

Its deployment in the AfPak theatre is far from the first time it has served as an instrument of war: from Angola to Vietnam to El Salvador (and in numerous other countries) it has dedicated itself to all manner of nefarious activities, with Operation Phoenix merely the most notorious of its initiatives. And it was, of course, intricately involved in the mayhem in Afghanistan in which the Taliban and Al Qaeda were incubated.

The reprehensible nature of its adversaries in the present instance hardly means the CIA’s character has changed or its tactics can be condoned.

Reacting to the Khost tragedy, Panetta said in a message to employees: “Those who fell yesterday were far from home and closer to the enemy....” Which prompted the thought: had CIA operatives, over the decades, stayed closer to home, the US may well have had far fewer enemies.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -310-zj-10

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 14 Jan 2010 15:43

Ikram Sehgal writes, no not about India, but on Karachi -
The battle for Karachi

this was collateral damage in the battle for turf in Karachi raging between the PPP and the MQM.

The population of Karachi is best estimated at about 15-16 million. Accordint to approximate figures, the largest segment of Mohajirs, or New Sindhis (six million-plus), is followed by Pathans (three million), Punjabis (two million), Sindhis and Baloch about two million together. Immigrants from other areas include those of Bangladeshi origin (1.6 million), Afghans (300,000), Iranians (100,000), Burmese (100,000), and others.

The MQM wants a crackdown on the Pakhtoon population on the one hand and the PPP's power base in Lyari on the other. The federal government is stuck somewhere in between the need for MQM support and satisfying the hardcore ethnic Baloch and Sindhis of the PPP.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Jan 2010 15:51

The difference between the RAPE & Indian WKK elite is that the RAPE wants to be accepted by the Arabs, so India is a legitimate target, and the WKKs want to be accepted by the West & defending India is a self goal as far as that is concerned. Jmtc.

No most WKK types are knee jerk anti Western/ US. Most of these sessions will include plenty of West bashing and sympathy for drone attacks and Western interference and blah blah. There is great bhaichara emanating specially from the Indian WKK. Don't know buyt some pertinent posts towards understanding this seem to be missing.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jan 2010 16:00

Jaswant Singh joins the WKK gang

"I will work for peace in South Asia - in Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh - and I want to expand the constituency of peace in our land," Singh told journalists . . . Declaring South Asia to be in its most "perilous state" in 62 years, Singh outlined his credentials as a regional peacemaker, saying it was he who came up with the idea that then Prime Minister Vajpayee travel to Lahore in a bus.

Singh said he persisted with peacemaking even though he was "betrayed" by Pakistan's subsequent attack on Kargil and terrorist strikes on the Jammu and Kashmir assembly and the parliament. {OK. What has he learnt from these, then ?}

"We persisted. We invited (then Pakistan President) Pervez Musharraf to Agra. Vajpayee said, 'why are we doing this'? I said 'insaniyat ke liye (For the sake of humanity)'.

"Musharraf engaged in grandstanding in Agra - otherwise we would have achieved something," he added.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Jan 2010 16:03

^^ And still we here are thinking the WKK brigade is left and jhollawalla types? What can be more obvious than bringing in the pseudo secular feudal mindset to the equation?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jan 2010 16:17

harbans wrote:No most WKK types are knee jerk anti Western/ US. Most of these sessions will include plenty of West bashing and sympathy for drone attacks and Western interference and blah blah.

Very true, indeed. The Indians among the Indo-Pak WKKs cannot be straitjacketed into a simple definition. They defy that. Some of them are Marxist JNU-jholawallahs, some retain memories of their places of birth and teenage on the other side, some are hopeless dhimmis, some want their two-minute glory, some are anti-establishment, some have religious connotations, some have Pakistani sons-in-law etc. etc. They come in a variety of ways.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 14 Jan 2010 16:29

The Indians among the Indo-Pak WKKs cannot be straitjacketed into a simple definition. They defy that. Some of them are Marxist JNU-jholawallahs, some retain memories of their places of birth and teenage on the other side, some are hopeless dhimmis, some want their two-minute glory, some are anti-establishment, some have religious connotations, some have Pakistani sons-in-law etc. etc. They come in a variety of ways.

Everybody has their skeletons in their closets. These people can be made public enemy like SPS Rathore. There might be 30 such people who make a regular appearance in such slumber partys. Expose these traitors and then continue to nip the bud when new crop comes. These people make a perfect profile of child abusers, pedophiles, domestic violence etc..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2010 16:59

SSridhar wrote:The statements in the Declaration at the just concluded India-Pakistan Peace Conference {Jan 10-12, 2010, New Delhi}

Tell you what is missing - at least I think it is missing. Who were the Einsteins who made up this laughable document?

I recall a similar slew of recommendations that I made to my vet when I took my pet hamster to him for certain corrective measures. My vet, whom I still keep haranguing has been unable to do it but I won't stop trying. Just like Pakis.

"Here is my pet Chichi. I need a few changes to his face so that at the end he looks like the one in this picture. I also need some changes in his forepaws so that they look more like what is visible in this picture. The fur coat needs some servicing so that it ends up looking like the hair in this picture"

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2010 17:25

The more I read of this document, the more I realise that this is a very civilized and forward looking vision and all you biased people on here are missing out on all the things that Pakistan can and will implement easily which jingoistic Indians will not do.

I am glad this document has been created with the consensus of tens of millions of Indians.

The statements in the Declaration at the just concluded India-Pakistan Peace Conference {Jan 10-12, 2010, New Delhi}

Pakistan is ready to go more than halfway to meet its obligations in the following areas and I don't see why India cannot reciprocate

There must be no militarist/chauvinist statements from political or
military leadership of the two countries.

Withdrawal of troops and punishment of those guilty of crimes
against people

There has to be a self censorship stop hate speech, war
mongering in the media

Roll back on the nuclear program

Reduce military spending by at least 10% per year, and divert the
savings to the social and development sector

India on the other hand has to do only a few minor things

Demilitarize the border
share intelligence
unilaterally open the borders
India must take initiative to build the trade
Reinstate Article 370 in its original form
Allow Kashmiris to live and work in Pakistan
Protect the interests of minorities in J&K.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2010 17:44

SSridhar wrote:There are mostly known WKKs there. No wonder there is Ramdas and his wife chairing sessions. I am also surprised to see some other big, distinguished names. It will be interesting to know if they subscribe to the Joint declaration and if so, we should question them. However much one hopes to the contrary, such SeS-like declarations slowly and surely pull the rug under our feet.

Actually I am quite happy to see "track 2 and track 3 dialogue" to be conducted in this manner because like Ajit's liquid oxygen the "peace process and dialogue" are alive in the oxygen but the liquid makes sure that it will never ever live - worded the way it is.

It would be easier for me to ask my aunt to become my uncle by growing the necessary accessories, but no matter how many such declarations are made India is not going to move on such ridiculous recommendations. Bu leave alone India - there are things in that which Pakistan will never be able to comply with. So if you have a set of recommendation that neither country is going to comply with exactly what are this group indulging in other than vaporware.

On the other hand nobody can accuse India of not talking peace and going that extra mile to foster dialog - by allowing such people to meet and say stupid things. Talk really is cheap.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jan 2010 18:06

Do not demonise Jinnah: Jaswant Singh

Describing Jinnah as a man of great determination, Singh said his transition from ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity to Quaid-e-Azam was fascinating.

"But before he could give shape to Pakistan of his conception he was out," Singh said.

The next two sentences in the above report are very revealing. Anyway, I will not go into them.

I am aware that we have beaten Jinnah to death in various threads. But, Jaswant Singh is proffering a new yardstick for measuring Jinnah, determination. If determination alone makes a man great, there are people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Zarqawi, Ayman al Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden and a multitude of others. The question is 'determination to do what'.

Again, it may be fascinating for him to see the transformation of Jinnah. However, his path of transformation was through hatred, whipping up unmanageable communal passion, massacre, unbridgeable division, enduring hostility, greed for power and a vision-less, unstable country. Such a transformation cannot be fascinating by any stretch of imagination. It can only be a nightmare.

Jinnah knew quite well two things: one, his end was near and two, there were no able hands within Pakistan to take the country forward. And yet, he went ahead with his plan to create a Pakistan. The terrorism problems that the world faces today can be traced directly and mainly to Jinnah.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 14 Jan 2010 18:09

shiv wrote: On the other hand nobody can accuse India of not talking peace and going that extra mile to foster dialog - by allowing such people to meet and say stupid things.

Its an insult to the people who laid their lives on 26/11 and thousand such instances over two decades. GOI is bowing to public pressure to talk tough to Pakistan at the same time taking the stick up its ass from the Americans by doing antics such as this one. Its only a tamasha. People of India are no longer foolish to buy the snake shit these people sell. That era ended on 26/11. Luckily,GOI realized this. Its the Americans who needs to get into their heads. The sooner they accept the reality, the better assessment they can make on ground realities and chnage their ridiculous policies in south asia.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 14 Jan 2010 18:34

Shivji, you may want to clarify that your post is dripping in sarcasm, though of course, it spoils the fun for rest of us.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 14 Jan 2010 19:06

US to provide $1 bn to bail out energy sector

----

India to US: Ensure your aid to Pakistan not misused
New Delhi, January 14, 2010

Ruling out any Indian threat to Pakistan, Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao on Thursday urged the US to ensure that the billions of dollars of American aid given to Islamabad is not diverted for anti-India activities.

A day after External Affairs Minister SM Krishna spoke to his Pakistani counterpart Shah Mehmood Qureshi and asked him to bring the perpetrators of the 26/11 Mumbai terror attack to justice speedily, Rao made it clear that any normalisation of relations with Pakistan is possible only when the patronage extended to anti-India forces is stopped in that country.

"The phenomenon of cross border terrorism has also illustrated the difficulties that we face in dealing with Pakistan," Rao said at the launch of the India Initiative of the Centre for a New American Security and the ASPEN Institute India.
...

Underlining the linkage of terrorists and militants who target India with patronage from powerful forces and institutions in Pakistan, Rao said: "It is vital that this support must stop forthwith."

"Any viable process of normalization of our relations with Pakistan is essentially dependent on this requirement since it is unrealistic to think otherwise," she stressed.
....
"It is equally critical for the US and the international community to pay adequate attention to and realise that the situation both in Afghanistan-Pakistan and the cross-border terrorism that emanates from Pakistan against India are manifestations of the use of terrorist ideologies to promote unscrupulous political or institutional agendas," she said.

Rao firmly denied any threat to Pakistan from India, a fear that is often whipped up by vested interests in the neighbouring country.

"Pakistan's concerns of the perceived threat in the east and on Indian activities in Afghanistan need to be unequivocally rebutted," she said.

"We have reiterated a number of times that we harbour no aggressive designs on Pakistan," Rao added.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Jan 2010 19:17

Singha wrote:times now was showing the aman ki asha loathesome ad.

ticker at bottom said "BSF arrests 15 yr old lashkar suicide bomber near wagah border"

You should have taken a screen grab and posted it.
In fact these obvious contradictions need to be posted and given wide publicity.

It would be great to have the "Chaman ki Asha" moniker with the Srinagar lal chowk head line / pic in the ticker, Mushy meeting ulfa terrorists, and the suicide bomber caught at wagah - these incidents all happened while chaman was going on.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Jan 2010 19:40

These meetings are keeping the Kashmir issue alive unnecessarily.

These kashmiri leaders need to be brought to attend chai biskoot meetings on development in Kashmir instead of with the packees.

I am sure any such meeting does not take place where even a fraction of such demands are made on pakistan. Then what is the tearing need for these guys to only involve india and that too give the enemies of India a platform to run riot with their packeeness?

The uncharitable view is that the retired high and almighty need something to ward off the boredom of their retired lives - they need to select better avenues to direct their efforts.

Firstly no ordinary citizen of India desires this unusual peace with India.
Secondly every citizen of India knows that J&K belongs to India - they won't be willing to compromise.
Thirdly, this is a futile effort to build bridges with pakistani chatterati class. If people in India are really desirous to peace, they need to get the pakistani army leadership - the real arbritors of power into an = = arrangement. That is to say, the pakistani army does this and this, and India will do this and this. The people who attend this from the pakistani side are all a bunch of useless freeloaders who when they go back to pakistan can't do jackshit about state policy.

Ultimately who foots the bill for this jaunt? All travel and 5 star stay would have been provided by private companies and advertisers and to what end? To criticize and sermon India ON INDIAN SOUL PAID FOR BY INDIANS ?

Shameful to say the least.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Jan 2010 20:28

All that was a side show, this is reality
Ensure your aid to Pakistan not misused: India to US

Ruling out any Indian threat to Pakistan, Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao Thursday urged the US to ensure that the billions of dollars of American aid given to Islamabad is not diverted for anti-India activities.

A day after External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna spoke to his Pakistani counterpart Shah Mehmood Qureshi and asked him to bring the perpetrators of the 26/11 Mumbai terror attack to justice speedily, Rao made it clear that any normalisation of relations with Pakistan is possible only when the patronage extended to anti-India forces is stopped in that country.

'The phenomenon of cross border terrorism has also illustrated the difficulties that we face in dealing with Pakistan,' Rao said at the launch of the India Initiative of the Centre for a New American Security and the ASPEN Institute India.

'We face hostile forces across our border with Pakistan, although we have consistently stressed our support for the advancement of democracy, the growth of civil society, and economic development in an atmosphere of peace in Pakistan - goals that the US also identifies with,' she said.

...

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 14 Jan 2010 20:47

800 pukis enjoy Indian hospitality

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Jan 2010 20:56

shiv wrote:
Here is my pet Chichi. I need a few changes to his face so that at the end he looks like the one in this picture. I also need some changes in his forepaws so that they look more like what is visible in this picture. The fur coat needs some servicing so that it ends up looking like the hair in this picture"

Good taste Shiv ji.

Protect the interests of minorities in J&K.

Are they serious? Who are minorities in J&K?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2010 20:57

Altair wrote: Its an insult to the people who laid their lives on 26/11 and thousand such instances over two decades. GOI is bowing to public pressure to talk tough to Pakistan at the same time taking the stick up its ass from the Americans by doing antics such as this one.

Well it's difficult to tell whether Indian stick or American stick is going up. Indan sticks are as effective.

The point I have been trying to stress is that when you have a billion people you are never going to have an exact agreement on viewpoints.

For example if there is a vocal minority who shout "Peace with Pakistan" - shutting them up is bad diplomacy. Let them have their say, give them their 15 seconds of airtime and then do what is in India's interests. I do believe that 26/11 was a huge stick up the backsides of the mindless peaceniks.

On a different note I see faint signs that Pakistan is asking for help. For a person who has read Paki rhetoric since the 1960s - this makes an refreshing change. But let me make a prediction here that will not be liked by most. I foresee that Pakistan will ask for help and get help from India in future. I think that is inevitable. But Indians have to make sure that it is done under conditions that we lay down.

There are several moves that India can make that can screw Pakistan, but none of them will get full support in India. I am afraid that India will settle for a stoppage of terrorism as the condition to help Pakistan. That is not enough. Pakistan must wind up its nuclear weapons program. IMO The best way to do this would be to make Pakistan a nuclear threat to China and the US. Don't know how that can be achieved.

shaunb · Post by **shaunb** » 14 Jan 2010 21:20

Congress dismisses Thackrey for severing cricketing ties with Australia(from Hindu)
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/article80 ... epage=true

Will this set precedence for starting cricket with TSP?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2010 21:25

shaunb wrote:Congress dismisses Thackrey for severing cricketing ties with Australia(from Hindu)
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/article80 ... epage=true

Will this set precedence for starting cricket with TSP?

If it does we can thank Thackray

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Jan 2010 21:58

We have to thank Thackrey.

It is only because of people on the extreme right that the congress can appear to be a moderate.

See the analogy, a 'kamal ka phool' is not an extraordinary flower, it doesn't have much of a scent either. But the fact that makes it most endearing is that it grows in a swamp.

These guys act as 'balancers' and at times as the moral conscience because they have an unwavering stance and are not mindful of people's sensitivities to blurt out the dirty truth. The mega problem is when people such as him start to implement their extreme views.

I am completely secular period, but I can't disagree with what these guys say sometimes.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 14 Jan 2010 22:03

ravi_ku wrote:
shiv wrote:But ravi India is a free enough country for people to start that sort of stuff, so "stopping it now" cannot be done. Stopping similar initiatives in the future can only occur by winning over people to the viewpoint that such initiatives are wrong/misguided.

There is a "Catch 22" here. Pakistan is not a free enough country for India to interfere with Pakistan's internal politics as easily as India's freedom allows Pakistan to play in India. Yawn can pay money to ToI to take out those moronic ads.
So all it will take to manufacture opinion in our country is to buy off a newspaper outlet and we can do NOTHING about it?

Today opinion = India- Pak equal-equal, tomorrow give away Kashmir, day after tomorrow .......?

What can you/one do to counter that shit?

The important thing is not to be provoked into a fight where we are disadvantaged, but concentrate on the results we want to achieve.

Shiv is absolutely correct when he says there is a vast, undecided middle-ground of people between the WKKs and ourselves. These are people for whom Pakistan-Shakistan is not that important, and who just want to get on with their lives. Their main priority is ensuring conditions where they can get on with their lives with the least inconvenience, and anything that inconveniences them for the time being, they oppose transiently. The key thing to remember about this vast middle ground is that their opinion is like water... it is fluid, taking the shape of the environment offered with least resistance. It is very possible to change, but once changed, it is nearly impossible to keep in its new shape unless one is powerful enough to control all extrinsic factors all the time.

Neither we, nor the WKKs are that powerful... so what we see instead is a constant shifting flux in the opinions of the undecided majority. The most important goal (and only achievable one) is to make sure that the incremental state of their opinion is in the region of where we want it to be at the appropriate time.

When a 26/11 happens, the undecided majority feel threatened by Pakistan and their opinion would coincide more with our point of view. When an Aman ki Tamasha is staged, most will be neutral while some of them might get sentimental and be drawn towards the WKK point of view. But if we (for example) staged dharnas and beat up WKKs, the undecided majority would oppose us, seeing us as a threatening, destabilizing force who would at the very least inconvenience them from getting on with their lives. Even if we speak up angrily and argue loudly that the peace process is a sham, some percentage of the undecided majority will look upon us with suspicion (simply because in their Desi way they don't want to inconvenience anybody else and they don't want to be inconvenienced themselves, so what is wrong with peace only?)

The WKKs know that in such situations, they have the upper hand. We are on the defensive. The WKKs paint us as "RSS-vadis" and "Hindoo fundamentalists" etc. so that the undecided majority will become wary and distrustful of us when we argue that Pakistan is a threat and no peace is possible. That sort of slander and tarnishing is exactly what the Indian media is engaged in, with the help of things like "pink chaddi campaign"... making patriots look like troublemakers, disruptors of the status quo who don't care if the undecided majority are inconvenienced. So that when we speak out against the Aman ki Tamashas, a section of the undecided majority will suspect our motivations. If we up the ante with demonstrations, public venting of bile etc. it only makes the undecided majority more wary of us, and more prone to support the WKK point of view.

So now we have two things:
(A) An Aman ki Tamasha campaign carried out with tremendous amount of publicity, bought and paid for by very powerful media outlets.
(B) The attempt to create opinion among the undecided majority, favourable to major concessions by the GOI towards Pakistan on J&K and perhaps other issues.

When you say

So all it will take to manufacture opinion in our country is to buy off a newspaper outlet and we can do NOTHING about it?

You are both right and wrong.

We can do very little about WKKs buying off of the newspaper outlet to carry out a peacenik publicity campaign.... (A) above. Yes, we can and should register our dissent by posting online comments, etc. in a steady and sober tone. But keep it sober and well-reasoned, because if we start raging and venting the WKKs only acquire more sticks to beat us over the head with. Charging uphill to stop the WKKs from doing (A), is a losing battle... because the undecided majority will side against us, the more loud and aggressive we are. It amounts to fighting the enemy on hostile ground, at a time and place of *their* choosing.

What we need to focus on instead, is that no attempt to create (B) above must ever succeed. As I explained, we cannot do this just by getting loudly and visibly angry about (A)... that will only get us negative points among the undecided majority. We should not spend all our energy *reacting* to (A), the Aman ki Tamasha campaign... but rather, spend it creating and spreading awareness about the J&K issue, the absolute and permanent legality of J&K's accession to India, the nature of J&K as an integral part of India, the genocidal ethnic cleansing of non-Muslims from J&K, the plight of Kashmiri Pandits, etc. I did this just a few days ago with a friend of mine who was one of the "let Kashmir go, why are we occupying them" types. I quietly explained to him the history of the conflict, the instrument of accession, the aversion of the National Conference to joining Pakistan, and the J&K elections leading to a constituent assembly that ratified the accession to India in 1956.

All the facts are on our side. Emotions favour the WKK... that's why they try to make it a war of emotions, appealing to the sentimentality of Hindi-Paki-bhai-bhai, and making us look like monsters when we react in rage. So don't fall into their trap. Instead... focus on pre-empting and thwarting (B). Arm yourself with the facts on J&K, put up blogs, put up Youtube-casts, write Op-Eds and submit them. Send out emails. Even talking one-on-one to an acquaintance belonging to the "undecided majority" will make a difference.

Don't attack (A) head-on. Focus on preparing the ground so that (A) does not successfully lead to (B). Because that's where we have the advantage.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Jan 2010 22:09

Here the problem is, that Aman ka Tamasha is halaal and kosher.
Any attempt to educate the aam junta to the real face of Pakistan will be decried as building mass hysteria.

More subtle methods - humour, soft power etc need to be used - but educate we must.