Indian Military Aviation
Re: Indian Military Aviation
excellent idea. the specs look a bit less then f22 engine...which is fine because such perf is
not needed in a strike bomber nor would its boxy airframe and fat wings be designed so much
for raw a2a.
producing 142 kN (32,000 lb) of thrust in afterburner and 86.3 kN (19,400 lb) dry.
not needed in a strike bomber nor would its boxy airframe and fat wings be designed so much
for raw a2a.
producing 142 kN (32,000 lb) of thrust in afterburner and 86.3 kN (19,400 lb) dry.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation
Interesting news -
So much for the HUGE price jump in the MIG-29k (rumors had it that the K would now cost upto $ 75 million)
29 birds @ 1.2 billion dollahs sounds like a bargain deal wonlee -
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... r-29-more-
MiG-29Ks/articleshow/5460879.cms
Russia to ink $1.2 bn deal for 29 more MiG-29Ks
Another good piece of news - Credits to Tango @ AFM
So much for the idea that Phaza was bankrupt and the Zhuk Ms were in trouble (guess someone bailed 'em out). Btw, the Kuznetsov is about to get its fulcrum wing too!
So much for the HUGE price jump in the MIG-29k (rumors had it that the K would now cost upto $ 75 million)

29 birds @ 1.2 billion dollahs sounds like a bargain deal wonlee -
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... r-29-more-
MiG-29Ks/articleshow/5460879.cms
Russia to ink $1.2 bn deal for 29 more MiG-29Ks
Another good piece of news - Credits to Tango @ AFM
So much for the idea that Phaza was bankrupt and the Zhuk Ms were in trouble (guess someone bailed 'em out). Btw, the Kuznetsov is about to get its fulcrum wing too!
CMNew Fazotron Zhuk-ME radars enter production
MOSCOW Jan 15
The Fazotron-NIIR corporation has launched the serial production of Zhuk-ME onboard radar systems designed to be installed on the export version of Russia’s MiG-29 fighter jet.
“The enterprise is expected to deliver approximately ten Zhuk-ME onboard radar systems in 2010,” Anatoly Kanashchenkov, Fazotron-NIIR first deputy general director and general designer, told Interfax-AVN.
Before the end of the year, the corporation will also have to manufacture spare parts sufficient to make “another ten Zhuk-ME radars,” Kanashchenkov said.
Newly made MiG-29K/KUB and MiG-29SMT fighter jets will be fitted with such radars, he said.
Fazotron-NIIR has also been “participating in the modernization of 64 MiG-29 fighter jets owned by the Indian Air Force,” he said.
“Flight tests of India’s modernized MiG-29 planes are expected to begin in Russia at the end of 2010 or at the start of 2011,” Kanashchenkov said.
Source: Interfax-AVN
Re: Indian Military Aviation
Talking about cost of aircraft, I found out about these today
http://prideaircraft.com/flanker.htm
at this rate the squadron worth of Su-30Ks at Pune wont be worth much
http://prideaircraft.com/flanker.htm
at this rate the squadron worth of Su-30Ks at Pune wont be worth much

Re: Indian Military Aviation
CM, that would be aprox $41.5M per mig29k. still steep increase going by the screw driver package, with no AESA, no SC blades nor any new stores.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
and a supply chain that will start ordering parts in ones and twos after it has received the money. God help us if we have a sustained war to fight
Re: Indian Military Aviation
if we are serious of war, rather talking, we should align with NATO forces not just for joint exercise, but actual combat - Iraq, Afpak, etc.
We need to be little bit more aggressive in our plans rather look everything from panch sheel or SDRE angle.
For this, our political system must change from voting babooze to voting for policies.
We need to be little bit more aggressive in our plans rather look everything from panch sheel or SDRE angle.
For this, our political system must change from voting babooze to voting for policies.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation
Vik is supposed to have a compliment of around 16 Mig-29K's so ordering in excess makes sense for it would mean 100% availability of the AC as far as carrier ops are concerned and the rest will be deputed to their land base in Dabolim (or later Seabird) .
Re: Indian Military Aviation
What the hell does that mean? I assume you are referring to a lack of tech transfer of SC blade tech along with Mig-29s. But India never asked for any tech transfer with the 29Ks.SaiK wrote:CM, that would be aprox $41.5M per mig29k. still steep increase going by the screw driver package, with no AESA, no SC blades nor any new stores.
If you are referring to SC blades not being used in the RD-33 engine I am not sure that is true. In any case it makes no difference at all. The MTBO of the new engines has been increased and the Mig-29 never had any issues with the thrust of its engines.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation
Good answer. AFAIK, the RDs do use SCB tech, although I don't think a TOT on this was asked for. Irrespective, this p'cular technology was available via the MKI deal, whether it was actually bought or not was the decision of the indian MOD. Or should we blame their lack of foresight/ absorption period on the Russkis too? $ 41 million for an a/c that provides more bang for the buck than almost any similarly priced fighter is a super deal. It is a great price if true, R&D (rona - dhona) notwithstanding. SaiKji, there simply isn't anything you can get for that price that can provide similar bang, A2A or A2G, period.nachiket wrote:What the hell does that mean? I assume you are referring to a lack of tech transfer of SC blade tech along with Mig-29s. But India never asked for any tech transfer with the 29Ks.SaiK wrote:CM, that would be aprox $41.5M per mig29k. still steep increase going by the screw driver package, with no AESA, no SC blades nor any new stores.
If you are referring to SC blades not being used in the RD-33 engine I am not sure that is true. In any case it makes no difference at all. The MTBO of the new engines has been increased and the Mig-29 never had any issues with the thrust of its engines.
Surya Saar,
The IN deal seems to have covered the spares issue with a great deal of thought and pragmatism; there was a clause to build up storehouses for smooth spares supplies. Supply-chain economies willl further be enhanced with the IAF baaz sharing a great deal of hardware with the Ks. The engine manufacture deal with HAL is another means of getting past similar hurdles of the past.
I know that the late 90s saw a low point in terms of russki supplies (esp. from MiG) but this has not been an issue in recent times, the uptimes for the Baaz as well as the Bison seem to be decent enough.
CM.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
CM
Its never that straightforward.
- based on some past info
this is what happens
IN will ask for X - hoping to get more spares to prevent a drama
MOD will say what for?? and eventually it will come down to Y
bigger problem is what sort of operations will be running out there when they are making 10 spares.
Next time we need spares it will all be mini Goroshkov like situations
first send over the dollars, then we will make the parts
then oh we do not have this or that
All of this is Ok if we are not in a high intensity war
If we are then good luck
Again I hope it is not but I have my doubts
Its never that straightforward.
- based on some past info
this is what happens
IN will ask for X - hoping to get more spares to prevent a drama
MOD will say what for?? and eventually it will come down to Y
bigger problem is what sort of operations will be running out there when they are making 10 spares.
Next time we need spares it will all be mini Goroshkov like situations
first send over the dollars, then we will make the parts
then oh we do not have this or that
All of this is Ok if we are not in a high intensity war
If we are then good luck
Again I hope it is not but I have my doubts
Re: Indian Military Aviation
What caught my attention was some thing elseAL-55I engine test flight 2010
Are we still working on CAT ?AL-55I engine is created for the Indian light training one- engine plane HJT-36 Intermediate Jet Trainer (owned by the HAL corporation) and the heavier two-engine HJT-39 Twin Engine Combat Attack Trainer. The AL-55I has the main version with 1,760 kilo haulage for HJT-36 and increased haulage (2,200 kilos) for HJT-39.
Link
Re: Indian Military Aviation
Article larded with some interesting bits of trivia about MI - 26 helicopter operations in the IAF:
IAF MI-26 attains 100% serviceability status
Punjab Newsline Network
Friday, 15 January 2010
CHANDIGARH: After more than a decade Mi-26, the largest helicopter in the world, possessed by IAF and being operated from this Chandigarh base have attained 100 cent serviceability and flown all together for more than 45 min over the bright sun shined city sky here.
Speaking on the occasion Air Cmde Rajeev Sachdeva , AOC 12 Wing expressed his satisfaction and stated that this is achieved because of most efficient planning .Last such serviceability status was held during the year 1996. ………………
The helicopter has distinguished itself by undertaking a total of 16 live Underslung operations in the high mountain reaches of J&K (at times under enemy shelling), the plains of central India and the seas of Kutch. As a part of sustaining our troops they operate to the Ladakh sector. While doing so it has achieved the sole distinction of landing a MI–26 at Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO) and other high altitude airfields carrying wheeled vehicles, field guns (Medium), Heavy – duty generators, mobile Satcom stations and Bulldozers. MI-26 is the only helicopter in its class, which has carried the Bofors gun. On 09 Sep 86 the MI-26 landed at the world’s highest landing zone (DBO), and in the following weeks the MI-26 air landed a one tonner, a jonga, prefabricated huts, petrol and supplies. Thus the unit achieved the feat of landing the first ever-tracked vehicles at Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO).
In Feb 89, MI-26 helicopter undertook the only of its kind underslung operation taking Pontoon bridge form Ludhiana to Sirhind canal. In Apr 96, two helicopters proceeded on their first overseas flight to Konotop. It took the helicopters 39 hrs of flying and 09 night halts to achieve this task flawlessly. While doing so the unit for the first time flew the longest ever formation flight (4.45Hrs) over high seas.
In Jul 02 the MI-26 recovered the first civilian aircraft (Beach Craft), which had met with an accident at Kangra airfield. Another first was achieved as the unit flew the longest ever underslung flight (3:15 hrs). Subsequently in the coming months the unit recovered a MI-35, MI-17 and a MIG-21 to Pathankot, Srinagar and Ambala respectively from their crash sites. …………………………………..
Punjab News Line
Re: Indian Military Aviation
so it looks like its confirmed that the new batch of MiG-29Ks will get the mechanically scanned array but improved Zhuk-M2E radars instead of the Zhuk-ME..that will be in common with the IAF's MiG-29UPGs. so much for Prasun Chorgupta's articles that lifted word to word Bill Sweetman's article on the Gripen, changed the name to MiG-29K (and previously repeated in the Su-30MKI article) and claimed that the follow-on MiG-29Ks will have AESA radars. maybe someone should go and remind him of that article and how his prophecy turned out to be untrue.New Fazotron Zhuk-ME radars enter production
MOSCOW Jan 15
The Fazotron-NIIR corporation has launched the serial production of Zhuk-ME onboard radar systems designed to be installed on the export version of Russia’s MiG-29 fighter jet.
“The enterprise is expected to deliver approximately ten Zhuk-ME onboard radar systems in 2010,” Anatoly Kanashchenkov, Fazotron-NIIR first deputy general director and general designer, told Interfax-AVN.
Before the end of the year, the corporation will also have to manufacture spare parts sufficient to make “another ten Zhuk-ME radars,” Kanashchenkov said.
Newly made MiG-29K/KUB and MiG-29SMT fighter jets will be fitted with such radars, he said.
Fazotron-NIIR has also been “participating in the modernization of 64 MiG-29 fighter jets owned by the Indian Air Force,” he said.
“Flight tests of India’s modernized MiG-29 planes are expected to begin in Russia at the end of 2010 or at the start of 2011,” Kanashchenkov said.
the article also mentions that the flight tests will begin in end-2010 or early 2011, so the upgrade process is on-going right now. A flight of MiG-29s (6 in total) are in Russia, and have been there since mid-2009, so that’s 6 fewer for the IAF to operate in India through 2010. the IAF must be feeling the pinch even with just one flight of air-superiority Baaz's missing.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
Why didn't IAF think of upgrading the Mig29 with other AESA radars? (like Eltas) cost?
Re: Indian Military Aviation
^ I doubt EADS/Elbit could have matched the $$ that Russians were offering (IIRC 12 mill per AC far lower than M-2000 upgrade offered by the same group). Plus i doubt the Russians would have offered RD-93MK engines separately outside of any upgrade package.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
It’s the RD-33MK engine on the upgraded MiG-29s, not the RD-93MK. the RD-93 was the powerplant that was a modified RD-33 able to power a single-engine fighter like the FC-1 (re-light in mid-air). But you may be right about the radar. MiG may have tied the upgrade to a Russian radar, and it would have been a lot less time consuming and a lot less expensive to go with the Zhuk ME, since it was in the works for several years and would already and much more readily be integrated for Russian BVR missiles and other A2G weaponry. With an Israeli radar, they'd need to do integration all over again for the MiG-29s all-Russian weaponry. that would require a lot of cooperation between Israel (radar source codes are their IP) and Russia (weapons are theirs). going by the delays on the Phalcon AWACS, it’s a much wiser decision to keep the upgrade an all-Russian affair, which makes it affordable and hopefully complete on time.John wrote:^ I doubt EADS/Elbit could have matched the $$ that Russians were offering (IIRC 12 mill per AC far lower than M-2000 upgrade offered by the same group). Plus i doubt the Russians would have offered RD-93MK engines separately outside of any upgrade package.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
Could'nt HAL/DRDO could have upgraded the Mig29s sourcing both from Elta and the Migs? Could have been a nice experience., and a value addition for engineering setup. Of course, we might have taken a little bit more time.. But hey, which project has not had a schedule creep?
Re: Indian Military Aviation
they could have, if there were no other options or if the cost was exhorbitant. Its not that big a deal putting an Israeli radar on the MiG-29. HAL did it for the Sea Harrier, so they could've done it for the Baaz as well, but integrating the Russian weapons with the Israeli radar would've taken more time. besides, the Shar upgrade was not too comprehensive, being meant to keep it current till 2015 or so and primarily meant to give it a BVR capability, and reduce some pilot workload, whereas the MiG-29UPG is a much more comprehensive upgrade.SaiK wrote:Could'nt HAL/DRDO could have upgraded the Mig29s sourcing both from Elta and the Migs? Could have been a nice experience., and a value addition for engineering setup. Of course, we might have taken a little bit more time.. But hey, which project has not had a schedule creep?
But HAL was/is already stretched with several programs concurrently on-going, such as
- Jaguar DARIN II upgrades for the current fleet being implemented
- Future Jaguar DARIN III upgrades for the fleet being worked on
- MiG-27 upgrades (already completed now, but when the MiG-29 upgrade was proposed, these were in development/testing)
- Sea Harrier upgrade with Israeli avionics (I guess completed now, but at that time was in the works/being implemented)
- ALH WSI variant with Shakti engines (complete now)
- Cheetal/ Cheetah re-engining (engineering effort over, airframes being re-engined)
- LCH design
- LUH preliminary design
- Hawk AJT production line
- IJT Sitara LSP production and AL-55I engine certification for in-service date in 2010
- LCA LSP production
- MTA project (future)
- FGFA (future)
- possible Medium Helicopter (future)
- MCA/NGFA (future)
There may be more that I missed out on. The point is, HAL has a finite number of engineers/program managers who can take on a new project. there are already too many on the plate and we know that in the past, the IJT program was so enthusiastically received by HAL that its support for the LCA program reduced and caused delays. No need to take up every project under the sun. In this case, since the Baaz upgrade is based on the well-known and mature MiG-29SMT, with changes to cater to obsolescence, there will be much less development effort and time, both of which are costly and especially so for the IAF which desperately needs multirole fighters.
the first 6 will be done in Russia, after which No.11 Base Repair Depot, Nasik will take up the work and hopefully deliver on time. Point being, there was not much to gain by making HAL come up with a new set of avionics specially for the Baaz. Let them concentrate on the stuff they have on hand (which is more than plentiful) especially when the project is not going to help develop some critical skill and where time is at a premium.
the IAF will get a reinvogorated Baaz at a very affordable price, that can comfortably tackle whatever the PAF has currently and be viable till 2020 at least, although I'd give it 3-5 years more depending on how much it gets used in this decade- given that it will get IFR probes, its mission durations will increase and maybe service life will be used up even faster. by then there will be MRCA's to replace it and the Baaz will retire gracefully (hopefully) rather than being made to linger on and then suffer attrition at the fag end of its life that will cause it to be given horrible nicknames like the MiG-21.
I somehow feel very happy to see this Baaz upgrade going ahead without any major hiccups. I just wish the Mirage-2000s get their due as well.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
India may buy another nine A-50EI early warning aircraft
India plans to buy more A-50EI airborne early warning aircrafts from Russia.
“The Indian Air Force has applied for another nine A-50EI, including three to be supplied under the main contract and six in an option,” a defense industry source told Interfax-AVN on Monday.
Negotiations have just begun, “nevertheless, we expect Rosoboronexport to sign the contract this year,” the source said.
The aircraft will carry Israeli radar systems, he noted.
The first trilateral contract between Russia, India and Israel signed in October 2003 is being implemented successfully. Beriyev, Ilyushin and Vega represent Russia in the contract, while Israel is represented by ELTA Electronics Industries, which supplies the Falcon radar.
The first plane was delivered to India in May 2009. The second and third planes will be supplied in the middle and at the end of the year.
“The new contract will make the production conti
nuous,” the source said.
The aircrafts are based on the Ilyushin Il-76 platform with PS-90A engines.
Source: Interfax-AVN
India plans to buy more A-50EI airborne early warning aircrafts from Russia.
“The Indian Air Force has applied for another nine A-50EI, including three to be supplied under the main contract and six in an option,” a defense industry source told Interfax-AVN on Monday.
Negotiations have just begun, “nevertheless, we expect Rosoboronexport to sign the contract this year,” the source said.
The aircraft will carry Israeli radar systems, he noted.
The first trilateral contract between Russia, India and Israel signed in October 2003 is being implemented successfully. Beriyev, Ilyushin and Vega represent Russia in the contract, while Israel is represented by ELTA Electronics Industries, which supplies the Falcon radar.
The first plane was delivered to India in May 2009. The second and third planes will be supplied in the middle and at the end of the year.
“The new contract will make the production conti
nuous,” the source said.
The aircrafts are based on the Ilyushin Il-76 platform with PS-90A engines.
Source: Interfax-AVN
Re: Indian Military Aviation
^^^
I always had a hunch on the number 12, yes I know that the above is no official confirmation since no contract is yet signed by Gawd I will be one jolly jingo if this order goes through...





I always had a hunch on the number 12, yes I know that the above is no official confirmation since no contract is yet signed by Gawd I will be one jolly jingo if this order goes through...
Re: Indian Military Aviation
12 Phalcons would be awesome. It supported by 12 CABS awacs IAF will have enough AWACS to pakis and chicom at bay. I see that my comments on the "Venerable" M2K have not gone well with some EDIT people.
The M2k is outdated that is why IAf is desperate to have it upgraded to M2k-5.
The original rfp for MRCA was for M2k-5 not the M2K-H IAF operates.
Kargil ops IAF did not face aerial opposition yet Mig-29s were tasked with the job of countering Porki F-16's.
Mirages did well with the LGB's almost all of which were US/Uk or israeli PGM's.
Our Mirages don't have any real long range missile like MICA or R-77 and unless upgraded soon are quiet obsolete.
The M2k is outdated that is why IAf is desperate to have it upgraded to M2k-5.
The original rfp for MRCA was for M2k-5 not the M2K-H IAF operates.
Kargil ops IAF did not face aerial opposition yet Mig-29s were tasked with the job of countering Porki F-16's.
Mirages did well with the LGB's almost all of which were US/Uk or israeli PGM's.
Our Mirages don't have any real long range missile like MICA or R-77 and unless upgraded soon are quiet obsolete.
Last edited by Rahul M on 19 Jan 2010 08:51, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: stop calling people names.
Reason: stop calling people names.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
After more than a decade Mi-26, the largest helicopter in the world, possessed by IAF and being operated from this Chandigarh base have attained 100 cent serviceability
sounds like special efforts are on to "greet" the han's camping on our borders.
12 + 12 awacs
all of NATO minus Khan put together iirc have 20 E3 while Khan has around
45. 24 would be a superb inventory.
single seat FPGA
I think single seat DPSA a/c is possible (JSF) if one has the cash and resources
to move entirely to gps guided and self guided munitions the way khan has.
for using LGB or ccip bombs, having a WSO is essential and thats why I think
India wants 2-seater. plus easier to operate offensive and defensive ECM
suite and SEAD/IMINT weapons with a WSO there.
sounds like special efforts are on to "greet" the han's camping on our borders.
12 + 12 awacs
all of NATO minus Khan put together iirc have 20 E3 while Khan has around
45. 24 would be a superb inventory.
single seat FPGA
I think single seat DPSA a/c is possible (JSF) if one has the cash and resources
to move entirely to gps guided and self guided munitions the way khan has.
for using LGB or ccip bombs, having a WSO is essential and thats why I think
India wants 2-seater. plus easier to operate offensive and defensive ECM
suite and SEAD/IMINT weapons with a WSO there.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
Well vavinash, out of 9 that the report mentions - 3 are confirmed. 6 others are options. We cant say for sure that they will be exercised.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation
You may get your wish with the Mirage 2000. Although the Elta-2052 has not started production yet.SaiK wrote:Why didn't IAF think of upgrading the Mig29 with other AESA radars? (like Eltas) cost?
CM.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
Guess the other 12 will be the DRDO AEW&C. May be even more. Add to it the E-2D Hawkeyes the Navy is looking to acquire.Singha wrote:12 + 12 awacs
all of NATO minus Khan put together iirc have 20 E3 while Khan has around
45. 24 would be a superb inventory.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
Just makes sense to standardize the refuellers also on this Il-78 with ps90a engines or the new nk-93 engines. we already have 34 Il-7X planes and this order will bring the number upto 43. Adding a dozen Il-78MKI only makes more sense..Austin wrote:India may buy another nine A-50EI early warning aircraft
The aircrafts are based on the Ilyushin Il-76 platform with PS-90A engines.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
True! Its better to standardize the fleet instead of playing circus feats with different types of aircraft in the inventory. Maintenance will be nothing but a night mare then.
Considering that IL-78 travelled from India to US for Redflag, with some stopovers though, it is not an inferior platform either.
Also, I somehow like IL-76/78 family with its typical military looks
. Airbus just don't have that in it 
Considering that IL-78 travelled from India to US for Redflag, with some stopovers though, it is not an inferior platform either.
Also, I somehow like IL-76/78 family with its typical military looks


Re: Indian Military Aviation
Then why even C 17? A figure of 10 such aircraft is not easy maintain especially considering we would have around 45 IL 76/78/A50. It would have better to go for IL 76 MD 90/MF with PS 90 Engines that are more economical and a payload of around 60 tonnes comparable to C 17 but considerably cheaper..More than 15 will be received in price of 10 C17..Venu wrote:True! Its better to standardize the fleet instead of playing circus feats with different types of aircraft in the inventory. Maintenance will be nothing but a night mare then.
Considering that IL-78 travelled from India to US for Redflag, with some stopovers though, it is not an inferior platform either.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
if we really go for that many IL-76 based phalcons, MoF is absolutely right that we should get the IL-78 only.
one important point to note from this is russia is going to produce the Il-76 after all, as I don't think there are any more surviving old platforms. austin can you check this point ?
one important point to note from this is russia is going to produce the Il-76 after all, as I don't think there are any more surviving old platforms. austin can you check this point ?
Re: Indian Military Aviation
The reason to go for IL 76 based Phalcon may be entirely different. I believe it is this.
ELTA has perfected integration of the Phalcon system on IL 76 and it would cost more to do it on a different platform and a smaller platform may have limited capability. IAF may have also seen if they do not go for another platform they can order more Phalcons. Hence the jump from 3 more to 9 i believe.
Rahul you are right if we are going for this many IL 76s there is no point in getting another refueller. I disagree with the C 17 comments by nrashah because C 17 is on a different class in terms of payload capability.
Stll expecting Boeing to win the Tanker
ELTA has perfected integration of the Phalcon system on IL 76 and it would cost more to do it on a different platform and a smaller platform may have limited capability. IAF may have also seen if they do not go for another platform they can order more Phalcons. Hence the jump from 3 more to 9 i believe.
Rahul you are right if we are going for this many IL 76s there is no point in getting another refueller. I disagree with the C 17 comments by nrashah because C 17 is on a different class in terms of payload capability.
Stll expecting Boeing to win the Tanker

Re: Indian Military Aviation
You obviously haven't heard of Gulfstream 550 Eitam in the Israeli Air Force.johnny_m wrote:The reason to go for IL 76 based Phalcon may be entirely different. I believe it is this.
ELTA has perfected integration of the Phalcon system on IL 76 and it would cost more to do it on a different platform and a smaller platform may have limited capability. IAF may have also seen if they do not go for another platform they can order more Phalcons. Hence the jump from 3 more to 9 i believe.
Per Wiki:
Gulfstream:
Range: 6,750 nm (12,501 km)
Service ceiling: 51,000 ft (15,545 m)
A50:
Range: 6,400 km (3,977 mi)
Service ceiling: 12,000 m (39,371 ft)
Re: Indian Military Aviation
johnny_m wrote:I disagree with the C 17 comments by nrashah because C 17 is on a different class in terms of payload capability.
IL 76 MF has a payload capacity of 60 tonnes, C 17 Globe master III - 160000 pounds (72 Tonnes)
Take of distance for IL 76 - 1600 Meter (5250 feet), C 17 - 7600 feet
Landing distance - IL 76 - 900 meter (2952 Feet), C 17 - 3000 Feet
Range - IL 76 - 4000 Km (60 tone) and 6200 km (40 tone), C 17 2400 NM (4500 km) with Full pay load
Engines - IL 76 4 each with 16000 Kg, C 17 - 4 each with 20190 kg (44400 pounds) of thrust
I dont think they are in different class. You are right about basic IL 76 which has payload of 40 tonnes but not this one. If you go on Boeing official site, it has been compared with A400M. Again shown IL 76 MF is in same class
Even ignoring the basic acquisition cost, cost of maintaining a fleet of only 10 aircraft with over 40 Il76 may be cumbersome. I have still not considered initial training cost.
All the above details are taken from official website of respective manufacturers.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
In the Indian context, where Tankers will not be operating too far away from forward bases that too well within defended airspace, it makes more sense to have more number of platforms with slightly less offloading fuel than less number of platforms with large fuel capacity. I read somewhere, that the argument the USAF had against Airbus tankers were that during operation most of the tankers often returned with a large amount of fuel back to base, hence as far as capability is concerned even the IL 78 should suffice the requirements, and add to that the cost benefit of having common system across the board, the maintenance over head is surely bound to come down with large numbers of IL 76, IL 78 and Phalcon in the country.
Ofcourse, the C-17 is altogether a different bird, with a larger lift capacity with its own advantages, so mixing the c 17 deal with IL 76 is not appropriate, but I wouldn't think the IL 78 deal is such a bad idea after all. Besides what is the benefit of having a Multi-role tanker transport in combat anyway? Given the limited numbers, in most of the wars in the sub-continent, it would be pressed to meet the role of a tanker anyway other than that the dream of sending expeditionary forces across the sea is just a jingoistic wet dream for us up until the distant future!
Ofcourse, the C-17 is altogether a different bird, with a larger lift capacity with its own advantages, so mixing the c 17 deal with IL 76 is not appropriate, but I wouldn't think the IL 78 deal is such a bad idea after all. Besides what is the benefit of having a Multi-role tanker transport in combat anyway? Given the limited numbers, in most of the wars in the sub-continent, it would be pressed to meet the role of a tanker anyway other than that the dream of sending expeditionary forces across the sea is just a jingoistic wet dream for us up until the distant future!
Re: Indian Military Aviation
Don't just go by the numbers alone, elsewhere in the forum, there has been a detailed discussion on the same. For instance, the C-17 can haul an Arjun MBT all the way to Leh which cannot be achieved by even the IL 76MF, not just because of the payload restrictions, but because of the fuselage size of the IL 76 platform. These and many other such type of benefits are present in the C-17 that rate it above the IL 76, but again like I said you can continue that discussion on the C17 for the IAF thread.IL 76 MF has a payload capacity of 60 tonnes, C 17 Globe master III - 160000 pounds (72 Tonnes)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation
G550 is basically a smaller platform,even if it boasts a greater range and altitude ,it has lesser number of operating mission stations compared to il-76 based awacs, g550 has 5-6 while il-76 has 12, india is a large country, a smaller country like israel or singapore[who have g550 based aew] can be covered but for a large country u need a large platform, il-76 or boeing 767,and i bet il-76 or rather il-476 fits the bill.Dmurphy wrote:You obviously haven't heard of Gulfstream 550 Eitam in the Israeli Air Force.johnny_m wrote:The reason to go for IL 76 based Phalcon may be entirely different. I believe it is this.
ELTA has perfected integration of the Phalcon system on IL 76 and it would cost more to do it on a different platform and a smaller platform may have limited capability. IAF may have also seen if they do not go for another platform they can order more Phalcons. Hence the jump from 3 more to 9 i believe.
Per Wiki:
Gulfstream:
Range: 6,750 nm (12,501 km)
Service ceiling: 51,000 ft (15,545 m)
A50:
Range: 6,400 km (3,977 mi)
Service ceiling: 12,000 m (39,371 ft)
Re: Indian Military Aviation
^^ minor nitpick sir,
It has nothing to do with larger or smaller country. No. of stations gives you that many options to deal with various activities in AEW.
It has nothing to do with larger or smaller country. No. of stations gives you that many options to deal with various activities in AEW.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
The sensor fit on a smaller platform can be only so much. Infact it can be argued that had we pushed for an airbus based A-330 platform for AEW, we would have seen more sensors and possibly more stations and better crew comfort than on A-50.Kanson wrote:^^ minor nitpick sir,
It has nothing to do with larger or smaller country. No. of stations gives you that many options to deal with various activities in AEW.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
India to receive second Phalcon AWACS system in March
Looks like a spanking new Phalcon is gonna land in March '10New Delhi: The Indian Air Force (IAF) will get its second Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) in March this year almost a year after taking delivery of the first. The system provides the capability to 'look' beyond enemy lines and also to detect incoming airborne threats.
Indian Air Force officials have apparently confirmed this development. They say that though the delivery is a ''little'' delayed, arrival of the modified Il-76 platform, which hosts the Israeli Phalcon AWACS system, is set to enhance IAF's capabilities tremendously.
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... awacs.html
Re: Indian Military Aviation
A330 phalcon although permissive of greater comfort, mission eqpt and endurance having no readymade soln would have pushed the delivery by 8 years - 1 yr to make up mind, 2 to negotiate, 1 to finalize, 4 for airbus to test structural mods with a dummy radome on a real plane. plus they are very busy with a380 and a350 and surely could not devote best engg resources.
it would have cost far more too, being a greenfield proj in which airbus has zero exp.
getting the certified E3-767 airframe from sher khan would be easier but I think
767 production is stopped for a couple yrs now and unlikely to restart unless boeing wins tanker deal.
and one surely cannot put phalcon at mercy of sher khan of all things.
it would have cost far more too, being a greenfield proj in which airbus has zero exp.
getting the certified E3-767 airframe from sher khan would be easier but I think
767 production is stopped for a couple yrs now and unlikely to restart unless boeing wins tanker deal.
and one surely cannot put phalcon at mercy of sher khan of all things.
Re: Indian Military Aviation
Wouldnt the Integration be done by IAI in Israel. From Airbus we would have got only the aircraft in its original config. The structural changes would be done by the Israeli'sSingha wrote:A330 phalcon although permissive of greater comfort, mission eqpt and endurance having no readymade soln would have pushed the delivery by 8 years - 1 yr to make up mind, 2 to negotiate, 1 to finalize, 4 for airbus to test structural mods with a dummy radome on a real plane.