Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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SaiK
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by SaiK »

But the Express India (ddmite) via BR news links, says this:

Astra was a futuristic missile and it could intercept targets at supersonic speeds between mach 1.2 to 1.4 (mach one is equivalent to 1236 kmph.)
Astra with Mach 4+ speed should be able to intercept targets moving at >mach 2? correct?
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by sherdil »

can any body tellme that new come about it intercept targets at supersonic speeds between mach 1.2 to 1.4 but fighter who normally fly at the speed of mach 2.0 how will it chase those F/A
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by nrshah »

sherdil wrote:can any body tellme that new come about it intercept targets at supersonic speeds between mach 1.2 to 1.4 but fighter who normally fly at the speed of mach 2.0 how will it chase those F/A
Same story as Akash SAM. I think some confusion is deliberately inbuilt in our defense systems
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by shiv »

sherdil wrote:can any body tell me that new come about it intercept targets at supersonic speeds between mach 1.2 to 1.4 but fighter who normally fly at the speed of mach 2.0 how will it chase those F/A

Perhaps it can't intercept targets moving directly away at Mach 2. But if the target is moving away at Mach 2 it is skiing downhill. If it can "catch up" and intercept an a/c moving away at mach 1.4 that is pretty good. Note that an aircraft that is moving away at an angle of about 45 degrees at Mach 2 is actually moving away only at Mach 1.4 and can get shot down.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

“fighter who normally fly at the speed of mach 2.0” is a grossly incorrect assumption. It’s a popular misconception that maximum speed is equivalent to sustained speed.

No aircraft can fly “sustained” at Mach 2 - including the vaunted F-22. Reasons include running out of fuel, airframe stresses, etc

Fighters fly subsonic most of the time. And payload reduces speed and maneuverability.

My understanding is that the Mach 1.2-1.4 figure refers to receding targets.

So Astra designers assume, at long ranges, the missile will be fired when the target is subsonic. On detecting Astra, the target will start accelerate but would be hit before it reaches Mach 1.4.

And at short ranges, aircraft cannot dogfight beyond Mach 1.5

Aircraft go supersonic and pull g to avoid missiles – but if the missile is able to sustain its energy longer than its target, then it wins. It is these parameters that decide the engagement envelope and the no escape zone.

Maximum speed/supersonic flight gives pilots the choice of joining or leaving a fight. And that’s all it is used for in aerial combat.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by SaiK »

pick astra's target list from:-
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1589
# Plane Top Speed Max. Altitude
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Amit J »

This isnt discussed in the last two pages so my apologies if this was already discussed here, but could someone tell me when the Nirbhay is going to be tested ? - as per last years reports it shd have benn tested by nw

This is a serious piece of hardware i look forward to post the closure of the IGMDP
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Kartik »

tsarkar wrote:“fighter who normally fly at the speed of mach 2.0” is a grossly incorrect assumption. It’s a popular misconception that maximum speed is equivalent to sustained speed.

No aircraft can fly “sustained” at Mach 2 - including the vaunted F-22. Reasons include running out of fuel, airframe stresses, etc

Fighters fly subsonic most of the time. And payload reduces speed and maneuverability.

My understanding is that the Mach 1.2-1.4 figure refers to receding targets.

So Astra designers assume, at long ranges, the missile will be fired when the target is subsonic. On detecting Astra, the target will start accelerate but would be hit before it reaches Mach 1.4.

And at short ranges, aircraft cannot dogfight beyond Mach 1.5

Aircraft go supersonic and pull g to avoid missiles – but if the missile is able to sustain its energy longer than its target, then it wins. It is these parameters that decide the engagement envelope and the no escape zone.

Maximum speed/supersonic flight gives pilots the choice of joining or leaving a fight. And that’s all it is used for in aerial combat.
yes, it’s a popular misconception that fighters can zoom around indefinitely at their top speed. it was only recently that the Super Hornet actually even reached its top speed, Mach 1.8 somewhere over Bangalore, when the conditions were right, and it was flying clean. and even that won't be sustained for long, because you can only reach your top speed with afterburner fully engaged and most aircraft carry enough fuel to sustain a few minutes of AB time.

and yes the Mach 1.2-1.4 value refers to a tail-chase of a supersonic fighter.

in a head-on mode, how does it even matter what the speed of the approaching target is ? as long as you can compute the path of the fighter and onboard algorithms can generate a path for the missile to eventually "merge" with that of the target, you're fine. as it is, the missile will always maneuver much harder- in the Astra's case, its airframe can withstand 40 G dynamic loading. best of luck with 9Gs in a fighter and keeping the pilot out of G-LOC. in fact, its even better for the missile if the target is supersonic- its agility decreases correspondingly to keep G forces down. turns become larger, and you can't do any fancy jinking either.

regarding last minute energy on a missile, that is the only drawback of a single motor missile where you first push it to a very high speed and then it coasts along. at the extreme range of its flight, its energy will be lower and any maneuvering will cause further loss of energy. it is here that the Meteor stands head over shoulders above the rest- due to its rocket-ramjet propulsion that allows it to have thrust even towards the edges of its envelope. which is why its no-escape zone is supposedly better than any existing BVR missile.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by vishnu.nv »

We have matured ramjet propulsion in form of Akash. How difficult it would be to mate Astra's seeker with Akash derived ramjet to produce a Meteor kind off missile???

Are we planning ramjet propulsion for Astra in future ?
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by John »

^ Akash ramjet engine does not have the speed or the burn duration for meteor like missile. You can perhaps modify Brahmos which uses more advanced liquid fueled ramjet engine for that purpose but it would require considerable expertize and $$ to reduce its size for a smaller airframe.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Amit J »

John wrote:^ Akash ramjet engine does not have the speed or the burn duration for meteor like missile. You can perhaps modify Brahmos which uses more advanced liquid fueled ramjet engine for that purpose but it would require considerable expertize and $$ to reduce its size for a smaller airframe.
^^ It would not make sense to modify the Anti Ship/ Anti Ground BrahMos for an anti role. It just too darn big to made small enough as a SAM. The better sense would be to utilise the technologies developed for the missile for further development of Akash (which BTW is already a succesful tested platform on its own) and other missiles
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Avinash R »

BrahMos missiles to be assembled at Pilani
JAIPUR, January 16, 2010

The country’s next assembling centre for the prestigious BrahMos missiles will be Rajasthan’s Pilani. The State Government has already allocated 80 hectares of land near Pilani town, better known for its Birla Institute of Technology and Science (BITS Pilani) for this purpose.

At present the BrahMos missiles, a joint venture of India and Russia, are assembled in Hyderabad. There is also a Brahmos Aerospace Thiruvananthapuram Limited near the Kerala capital.

The Chief Controller of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Chief Executive Officer of BrahMos Board, Sivthanu Pillai, was here over the weekend in this connection. He met Chief Minister Ashok Gehlot and promised to start work on the new centre at the earliest. He thanked the State Government for the allocation of land and presented to Mr. Gehlot a model of Brahmos missile.

Extolling Brahmos as the fastest missile in the world, Dr. Pillai told Mr. Gehlot that an investment of Rs.200 crore would be made on the new centre. The missile moves three times faster than the speed of sound, he pointed out.

The new centre would recruit about 150 technical experts and people from Rajasthan would be given preference in recruitments, he promised the Chief Minister.

It was DRDO’s proposal that a BrahMos project be set up in Pilani. It had approached the State with a request for allotment of land. In fact, eminent missile scientist and former President of India A. P. J. Abdul Kalam during his visit to BITS Pilani in March-April 2007 to address students there had spoken about possible linkages with the students of the Institute and the country’s missile programme.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by yossarian »

I dont understand.. the latest TOI article seems to suggest that captive flight trials haven't even begun, and says the testing has been done only for 45KM range Astra and not the 80 KM one....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 434798.cms
For one, the beyond visual range (BVR) missile’s ‘captive flight trials’ from a fighter jet like the Sukhoi-30MKI are yet to begin despite DRDO having earlier promised they would start from July 2008. For another, even after these trials kick off, it will take another couple of years and 20-40 tests for Astra-I, with a 45-km strike range, to be dubbed fully-operational. The 80-km range Astra-II will only follow thereafter.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by aditp »


But why place such a sensitive facility so close to the TSP border!!!
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Singha »

isnt there a CEERI also in pilani. http://www.ceeri.res.in/

I suppose the assembly facilities could be deep underground but again added cost, as opposed to just setting up in mysore (kerala).
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by sunny y »

I dont understand.. the latest TOI article seems to suggest that captive flight trials haven't even begun
It's usual DDM....Captive flight trials have already been carried out in November last year. Check out the top posts on this page.
the testing has been done only for 45KM range Astra and not the 80 KM one....
That's right.....Astra's range will be increased to 80KM in Mark-II version.

Here is the source :
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/10/ ... e-its.html
The Astra, built by the Defence R&D Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad, will allow IAF pilots to hit enemy aircraft up to 44 km away, at altitudes up to 20,000 metres. Improving on that will be the Astra Mk II, with a longer range of 80 km.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by vavinash »

Ajai shuklas article is wrong. Astra-1 has a range of 80 km at altitude of 15 km. It is 45km at 9000 m and at sea level drops to 30 km. Again all this is head on mode. Astra-II will have range exceeding 100 km, hopefully 120 km so it can replace old R-77.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Bheem »

Or probably there is only one Astra and DDM are confusing the issue?
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Nihat »

Bheem wrote:Or probably there is only one Astra and DDM are confusing the issue?
Thats what I reckon too , from the beginning I heard only about 1 Astra which had a max. head on range of 80 Km and 15 Km tail chase , it may be possible that in previous testing the imaginary targets given to Astra were of 45 Km range initially and it may have been percieved as "Astra has been succesfully tested against a TAR of 45Km , leading to lot of confusion on Mk1 and Mk2.

Happy to be corrected though
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by nrshah »

Nihat wrote:Thats what I reckon too , from the beginning I heard only about 1 Astra which had a max. head on range of 80 Km and 15 Km tail chase , it may be possible that in previous testing the imaginary targets given to Astra were of 45 Km range initially and it may have been percieved as "Astra has been succesfully tested against a TAR of 45Km , leading to lot of confusion on Mk1 and Mk2.
Exactly, Astra has a range of 80Km head on and 15 Km tail chase. Although range is always subjective on altitude of launch and others.

The article of TOI is Sh*t when it says Astra is overweight. The weight is comparable to other missiles of similar range.
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by johnny_m »

India targets China's satellites
The goals for India's anti-ballistic missile (ABM) and ballistic missile defense (BMD) programs may be shifting to accommodate an anti-satellite (ASAT) weapon more quickly than previously planned, and this could radically alter the agenda of US Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who is currently in the middle of a three-day visit to India.

"Memories in New Delhi run deep about how India's relative tardiness in developing strategic offensive systems [nuclear weapons] redounded in its relegation on 'judgment day' [when the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty was signed in 1968] to the formal category of non-nuclear weapons state," said Sourabh Gupta, senior research associate at Samuels International Associates in Washington, DC.

"With its early support of the former US president George W Bush's ballistic missile defense program and its current drive to develop anti-ballistic missile/anti-satellite capability, New Delhi is determined not to make the same mistake twice," added Gupta. "If and when globally negotiated restraints are placed on such strategic defensive systems or technologies - perhaps restraints of some sort of ASAT testing/hit-to-kill technologies - India will already have crossed the technical threshold in that regard, and acknowledgement of such status [will be] grand-fathered into any such future agreement."

After watching China's moves since the highly controversial satellite shootdown which China undertook in January 2007, India has now openly declared its desire to match China.

"There is no reason to be surprised. India is anxious to be seen as not lagging behind China - ergo - if China has an ASAT program, India can do it, too. That's all there is to it." said Uzi Rubin, a defense consultant and former head of Israel's missile defense organization............................................
Full Article here-----> http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/LA22Df01.html
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

X-post

http://frontierindia.net/india-tests-10 ... d-bomb-kit

India tests 1000 lb laser guided bomb kit
“ADE, Bangalore has developed a guidance kit for 1000 lb, laser guided bombs. These guidance kits are designed to improve accuracy of air-to-ground bombing by Indian Air Force. A number of tests have been performed both through simulation and flight tests over the last few years to reach the required performance levels. The bomb, once released, by the mother aircraft at appropriate range, will seek the target and home on to it very accurately and with high reliability. All the necessary on-board components are sourced from Indian industry.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Kartik »

As per the DRDO's monthly publication, this year's goals include testing an Astra with seeker from a ground-launcher. The previous tests were all done to validate other systems and the last two tests that were conducted recently finally validated the aerodynamic configuration of the Astra.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

kartik, if you remember they tested against some virtual target a while ago. was that completely without seeker ? could this statement mean completion of the seeker related tests ?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by negi »

^ That might refer to simulation of guidance from host aircraft in terms of latest updates with regards to the target coordinates via datalink until the missile is close enough to home on the target by itself using the onboard seeker ( active radar in this case). :|
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

begs the question, has DLs been tested yet ? don't think so.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by shynee »

Army plan induction of BrahMos with 'surgical strike' option
NEW DELHI: Army is going in for a major induction of BrahMos Block-II land-attack cruise missiles (LACM), which have been designed as "precision strike weapons" capable of hitting small targets in cluttered urban environments.

Sources say the defence ministry will ``soon'' approach the Cabinet Committee on Security, chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, for the green signal to arm the Army with two regiments of the BrahMos Block-II land-attack cruise missiles (LACM).

Swift induction of BrahMos Block-II is necessary because Pakistan Army is inducting its nuclear-capable Babur LACM, developed with China's help to have a 500-km strike range, in large numbers. BrahMos-II can potentially be used for ``surgical strikes'' at terror training camps across the border without causing collateral damage.

One regiment of the 290-km range BrahMos-I variant, which consists of 67 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 Tatra vehicles and two mobile command posts, among other equipment, is already operational in the Army. It had earlier ordered two BrahMos regiments in the first phase at a cost of Rs 8,352 crore
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

^^^^^
If IA is going for BrahMos Block-II (LACM), does this mean Prithvi is going to be phased out!
Other then carrying larger payload liquid fueled Prithvi is loosing its use.
The payload problem can be over come by targeting multiple BrahMos Block-II missiles
at a given target. BrahMos Block-II (LACM) will be easy to handle, more accurate and
would be good for quick response.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by jaladipc »

VinodTK wrote:^^^^^
If IA is going for BrahMos Block-II (LACM), does this mean Prithvi is going to be phased out!
Other then carrying larger payload liquid fueled Prithvi is loosing its use.
The payload problem can be over come by targeting multiple BrahMos Block-II missiles
at a given target. BrahMos Block-II (LACM) will be easy to handle, more accurate and
would be good for quick response.
Not even in the Army`s radar of Phasing out Prithvi`s.

Brahmos is a costly option.meant for limited strikes yet with precision.we cant produce them in 1000`s like US did with tomahawks.
Its good to keep all options wide open.
Even Prithvi can do a <10m CEP strike apart from the hassle of being a liquid fueled.
It may be well suggested replacing liquid fueled ones with solid fuels.

Army paid a ransom of 8000+crore for just 2 regiments of brahmos.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Surya »

Err how is it a ransom???

Is the price mentioned true?? Do we have a mod statement on that??
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by csharma »

What happened to the Agni tests that were supposed to take place in Jan?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Surya »

John

I know the DDM article says that. But I need to see it as an official announcement -

and then what does that cover

and then finally a comparison with other LACM

before we can claim its a "ransom"
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

Surya wrote: Is the price mentioned true?? Do we have a mod statement on that??
One regiment of the 290-km range BrahMos-I variant, which consists of 67 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 Tatra vehicles and two mobile command posts, among other equipment, is already operational in the Army. It had earlier ordered two BrahMos regiments in the first phase at a cost of Rs 8,352 crore.
jaladipc wrote:Brahmos is a costly option.meant for limited strikes yet with precision.we cant produce them in 1000`s like US did with tomahawks.
Its good to keep all options wide open.
Tomahawk is relatively cheap thanks to mass production, France is paying close to 6 million per missile for Scalp. Heck IN is paying 5 million+ for the Exocet to arm Scorpene. As for Brahmos yes its cost has gone up to 5.4 million/each as per latest figures.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

Surya wrote:John

I know the DDM article says that. But I need to see it as an official announcement -

and then what does that cover

and then finally a comparison with other LACM

before we can claim its a "ransom"
I do not what you mean by official but the 8352 crore figure does seem correct.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Surya »

Thanks John - was hoping some MOD or GOI press release had it

Does not look like a ransom to me. Plus we are reliant on certain parts from our friends

I think even the Barak was approaching that amount.

Well if they want to lower costs they need to produce more and new variants and think like Singha. :D
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Gerard »

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/cities/De ... e93879.ece
The Indian Navy, Air Force and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will also participate in the Parade. The DRDO would display their light combat aircraft, “Agni” ballistic missile, “Shaurya” canister-launched hypersonic surface-to-surface missile and “Rohini” radars.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sumshyam »

Army plans induction of BrahMos with 'surgical strike' option
NEW DELHI: Army is going in for a major induction of BrahMos Block-II land-attack cruise missiles (LACM), which have been designed as "precision strike weapons" capable of hitting small targets in cluttered urban environments.

Sources say the defence ministry will ``soon'' approach the Cabinet Committee on Security, chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, for the green signal to arm the Army with two regiments of the BrahMos Block-II land-attack cruise missiles (LACM).

Swift induction of BrahMos Block-II is necessary because Pakistan Army is inducting its nuclear-capable Babur LACM, developed with China's help to have a 500-km strike range, in large numbers. BrahMos-II can potentially be used for ``surgical strikes'' at terror training camps across the border without causing collateral damage.

One regiment of the 290-km range BrahMos-I variant, which consists of 67 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 Tatra vehicles and two mobile command posts, among other equipment, is already operational in the Army. It had earlier ordered two BrahMos regiments in the first phase at a cost of Rs 8,352 crore.

The BrahMos Block-II variant has been developed to take out a specific small target, with a low radar cross-section, in a multi-target environment.

The air-breathing missile, which flies at speeds up to 2.8 Mach (almost three times the speed of sound), of course, does not come cheap. With `multi-spectral seekers' for `target-discriminating capabilities', each missile costs upwards of Rs 25 crore.

Incidentally, Indian Navy too has inducted BrahMos's naval variant on some warships, having earlier placed orders worth Rs 711 crore for 49 firing units.

While these missiles are fired from `inclined launchers', Navy is also gearing up to induct `vertical launchers'.

This is significant since `vertical launchers' are fitted under the warship's deck, protecting them from the atmospheric conditions and imparting some stealth to the weapon system. It also allows the missile to be fired in any direction.

Two such modules, with 16 missiles, are to fitted in each of the three Kolkata-class P-15A destroyers being built at Mazagon Docks at a cost of Rs 11,662 crore.

BrahMos will also arm the three more Talwar-class `stealth' frigates being built at Yantar shipyard in Kaliningrad (Russia) under a Rs 5,514-crore project.

But the work on submarine and air-launched versions of BrahMos is still going quite slow. While talks with Russia are now in the final stages for BrahMos' integration with Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, the missile will be tested for the first time from submersible pontoon launchers this year in preparation for their induction on submarines.

India and Russia have also begun preliminary work on a ``hypersonic'' BrahMos-2 missile capable of flying at a speed between 5 and 7 Mach, as reported earlier.

The armed forces' eventual plan, of course, is to have nuclear-tipped LACMs, with strike ranges over 1,500 km. Unlike ballistic missiles like Agni, cruise missiles do not leave the atmosphere and are powered and guided throughout their flight path.

Cruise missiles, which can evade enemy radars and air defence systems since they fly at low altitudes, are also much cheaper as well as more accurate and easier to operate than ballistic missiles.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

One regiment of the 290-km range BrahMos-I variant, which consists of 67 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 Tatra vehicles and two mobile command posts, among other equipment, is already operational in the Army. It had earlier ordered two BrahMos regiments in the first phase at a cost of Rs 8,352 crore.
Actually noticed a mistake this should be one battery not one regiment, each regiment has 3 batteries.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

sumshyam wrote:The air-breathing missile, which flies at speeds up to 2.8 Mach (almost three times the speed of sound), of course, does not come cheap. With `multi-spectral seekers' for `target-discriminating capabilities', each missile costs upwards of Rs 25 crore.
Once again the "multispectral" seeker the heart of Brahmos Mk2 makes the big difference , but what constitutes multispectral on mk2 still evades.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

John wrote:
One regiment of the 290-km range BrahMos-I variant, which consists of 67 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 Tatra vehicles and two mobile command posts, among other equipment, is already operational in the Army. It had earlier ordered two BrahMos regiments in the first phase at a cost of Rs 8,352 crore.
Actually noticed a mistake this should be one battery not one regiment, each regiment has 3 batteries.
So, are we talking about 15 TEL/Regiment which would translate into 15*3-->45 ready to fire missiles? Is there any confirmation as such on composition of a Brahmos-I/II Regiment? And @67 missiles per battery, this means at least 201 missiles per regiment.....impressive firepower... :twisted:
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