MRCA News and Discussion

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 28 Jan 2010 23:15

There is nothing called greed when companies try to get orders. After all, as a corporate entity, getting huge orders and marketshare is their goal

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Jan 2010 23:56

^^and why shouldn't the rest think that way? and is this a seller market or buyer market?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 29 Jan 2010 00:02

SaiK wrote:a seller market or buyer market?

What about SYMBIOTIC.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Jan 2010 02:05

that would be post sale.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Jan 2010 07:48

SaiK wrote:high hopes.. they just won the 29k for a $ billion or so. Russians want everything, and don't want to lose this order to their super power enemy.

they also just took pak-fa for another dev cost of $10b, and it comes @ $100m per puppy. sheesh.. greedy.

Come to think about it from 50's to 90's the SU would get any deal they want , atleast they are realist now and are just hoping like others

BTW what is wrong if Mig-35 wins the deal ( or part of it ) on its own merit ?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 29 Jan 2010 07:49

Austin wrote:
SaiK wrote:high hopes.. they just won the 29k for a $ billion or so. Russians want everything, and don't want to lose this order to their super power enemy.

they also just took pak-fa for another dev cost of $10b, and it comes @ $100m per puppy. sheesh.. greedy.
Come to think about it from 50's to 90's the SU would get any deal they want , atleast they are realist now and are just hoping like others

BTW what is wrong if Mig-35 wins the deal ( or part of it ) on its own merit ?

Nothing, its just that there are die hard jingoes who feel that the MiG simply does not have any merit!

CM

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 29 Jan 2010 09:10

I read recent reports of the new AESA retrofitted & trialled on the F-16..

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/art ... 182641.htm

And some more info on the radar..

http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/sabr/

http://www.youtube.com/northropgrummanmedia
(video link)

Can anyone comment on how good is the Northrop Grumman's Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) installed in an F-16 (given that pak could have access to it in the future) is, compared to Raytheon's AN/APG-79 on the F/A-18?

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 29 Jan 2010 19:48

Saurabh_M wrote:
pkudva wrote: actually this idea seems to be true but practically we need this deal to absorb certain new technologies and also an aircraft to replace the ones who have become obselete starting from Mig-21 to Mig-27

Tejas programme is taking lot of time.

Anyone can say su-30 is the best fighter in this world, but it is an expensive jet and moreover it is also being upgraded. so we need a new jet either in the form of fa-18/16,gripen,euro fighter or mig-35

mig-35 is easy to absorb as we know the tech , rest of them will be a bit difficult....
(1) In Su-30MKI we already have a jet which is equal (maybe even better) than F/A-18, Typhoon, Mig-35 and Rafale.
(2) We have invested in facilities for producing and maintaining Su-30MKI
(3) We will have access to technology spin-offs of PAF-FA and there will be many, so that will take care of absorbing technologies. Su-30MKI will be most compatible to absorb the spin-offs.
(4) It doesn't make sense to build and maintain a completely new production line, when you have an existing line of a proven fighter
(5) We won't go for Gripen, its developed by and meant for small countries
(6) Mig-35 is the last improvement of the Mig-29 airframe, which is almost 1/2 a generation older than the Su-27 airframe
(7) Rafales and Typhoons are more expensive to procure and maintain compared to the Sukhois
(8) We can expect more collaboration with Russians going by success of Su-30MKI, Brahmos and current pace of PAK-FA. I would rather that we acquire/develop platforms more compatible to them

IMHO, its makes a lot more sense to go for more Su-30MKI. They will arrive at the same time MRCA would arrive, and they would be correctly positioned to absorb developments in PAF-FA

Sadly this won't happen

PAF-FA?????? surely you mean PAK-FA or FGFA don't you??? In that respect I would be inclined to go for a smaller numbers of SU30MKI as a 'filler' to be backed up with the Russian version of PAK-FA to tie-up the numbers.

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 29 Jan 2010 20:01

Saurabh_M wrote:I personally hope they do for Rafale. Their purchase and maintenance will bankrupt their economy.

Personally, I hope we just scrap the MRCA and go in for more Su-30MKI, with spinoffs from PAK-FA added to the new ones.
Su-30MKI plus PAK-FA spinoffs is superior to any option on board for MRCA deal.

For all practical purposes Pak is already a Bankrupt country if you were to exclude the generous grants and handouts from US, EU countries, Saudi, IMF and World Bank who are responsible for keeping pak economically afloat. Buying Rafaele is not going to make much of a difference they will only rush to unkil to bail them out yet again with threats of blackmail as usual.

negi · Post by **negi** » 29 Jan 2010 20:42

Change of plans scrap MRCA instead of 126 MRCA , 100 PAKFA will do.

I pretty sure PAKFA won't cost more than EF/Rafale considering complete life cycle costs ,training and weapons .

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Jan 2010 20:44

the problem is we have no idea when pak-fa will realize. IAF can't wait till then.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 29 Jan 2010 22:03

he he .. MRCA is dead.. Long live the King...

Order more 60 MKI, some refurbed 30 odd Migs to the new upgraded standard and some more 2 dozen more jags and speed up the first 40 LCAs till the PAKFA starts production run.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 29 Jan 2010 22:19

Cybaru wrote:he he .. MRCA is dead.. Long live the King...

Order more 60 MKI, some refurbed 30 odd Migs to the new upgraded standard and some more 2 dozen more jags and speed up the first 40 LCAs till the PAKFA starts production run.

Too late to turn back now buddy..

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 29 Jan 2010 22:30

shukla wrote:
Too late to turn back now buddy..

too late ?? Why ? No money has been spent.. we spent quality time evaluating, if nothing meets our requirements, budget and timeframe, we should skip it..

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 29 Jan 2010 23:15

In India its never to late to cancel a deal

. If a company other than a US or Russian one wins I wouldnt bet on the deal getting cancelled due to some "scandal". The Russians and the US are masters at this.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Jan 2010 23:56

willy.. create a scandal to cancel a project!!?

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 30 Jan 2010 00:03

This medium multirole combat aircaft concept never made sense to me anyway. Who in the world has this concept in their airforce? Answer: NO ONE.

If they are resource rich they have a high lo mix e.g. f-15 AND f-16 (transitioning now to f-22/f-35) or SU-30 and mig-29. Others have one multirole fighter e.g. Rafale. The euros. will concentrate on the Typhoon.
Why insert a 4.5 generation fighter into our mix at a cost which will equal or perhaps exceed the PAK-FA?

Lets get another 60 SU-30mki (350 total) and purchase 40 upgraded mig-29s as well as upgrade oue entire mig-29 fleet to a reasonable std( AESA, thrust vectoring engines and modern EW suite). Then sit back and enjoy the wait till the PAK-FA/FGFA rolls into town.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 30 Jan 2010 00:33

SaiK wrote:willy.. create a scandal to cancel a project!!?

just pass on the news to TOI. soooo chimple.they will make it a huge fuss and not even the CBI or the contenders know if such thing has really happened.
And the investigation will take a good couple of years while FGFA progress and domestic MKI production ramps up and MOD will change his mind on spending that ransom for a 4.5 gen when 5th gen nears production stage.
If any bribery scandal can make good for India,it has to be the cancelling of MMRCA deal

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Jan 2010 00:42

Somehow the fizz from the MRCA has gone.

Now that we have the foundation for the FGFA.

prabir · Post by **prabir** » 30 Jan 2010 01:21

Is it possible that, we can use MRCA contract to get a "political package" with US and Russia along the following lines -

1. India get recognition as Nuclear Weapons State in NPT
2. India signs CTBT once US ratifies it and both Russia and US share simulation of cold nuclear tests. Russia even passes on some of its own designs
3. India agrees to buy from both US and Russia.
4. US tries to diversify its manufacturing from China to India. Japan also follows suit. This will help them check Chinese economic and soon to be "military" influence in world matters.
5. India participates in some of "policing" (immoral though) matters for the West (Troop contribution to Iraq, Afganistan etc.)

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 30 Jan 2010 02:47

It also maybe the reason why the engine for LCA block II hasn't been chosen. It would have defused the need for MRCA. MRCA means more money in bank for politicos.

Following thing needs working:

Choose engine for LCA block II.
Work on Kaveri put as much money are required. Money very wisely spent (even if its 5 billion)
Work on making Shakti at completely at home 100%. The core and everything.
Work on adding shakti-2 (move R&D and test and development of engine to India) in the power range for 1800 shp ( it has growth potential all the way to 2000 shp) for MRH and HRH based helicopters. We have a good requirement of 200-300 of MRH helicopters.

One flight of PAK-FA almost makes the whole MRCA requirement redundant over night.

yossarian · Post by **yossarian** » 30 Jan 2010 03:41

Is it possible that, we can use MRCA contract to get a "political package" with US and Russia along the following lines -

1. India get recognition as Nuclear Weapons State in NPT
2. India signs CTBT once US ratifies it and both Russia and US share simulation of cold nuclear tests. Russia even passes on some of its own designs
3. India agrees to buy from both US and Russia.
4. US tries to diversify its manufacturing from China to India. Japan also follows suit. This will help them check Chinese economic and soon to be "military" influence in world matters.
5. India participates in some of "policing" (immoral though) matters for the West (Troop contribution to Iraq, Afganistan etc.)

All that and 126 planes for 10 billion... hmmm...

High hopes is all I would say...Of course CTBT is something that i will never agree with...but still for argument's sake even.. nope...

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 30 Jan 2010 16:29

Now I guess it would be the Finance Ministry way for MMRCA - Buy the cheapest. For the first time I am giving a thought to Gripen, and I complete the circle

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 30 Jan 2010 21:20

JimmyJ wrote:Now I guess it would be the Finance Ministry way for MMRCA - Buy the cheapest. For the first time I am giving a thought to Gripen, and I complete the circle

then name mig 35 as the cheapest option,
gripen isn't that cheap,it would cost as much as a rafale ,check its cost

Best option would be to scrap the mmrca project, buy 3 more squadrons of su30 ,pump the money into making more 4.5 gen LCAs,. this is possible and should be ,.
Money will remain in house,. Instead deal for tot of important components like aesa , weapons,eurojet/snecma engine etc from the manufacturer.
make things simple and easy to do.

We know that MCA will be a better 5th gen aircraft than pakfa .

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 30 Jan 2010 22:06

Samay wrote: We know that MCA will be a better 5th gen aircraft than pakfa .

and you know this because

MCA is NOT yet a paper plane.. They have identified a Wish list of the things they want in a MCA, but nothing has been defined as to how it will BETTER or ONE UP the MCA.. So if you claim to know that MCA will be better than PAK-FA, please elaborate for us lesser mortals!

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 30 Jan 2010 22:35

^^ Can you provide a link proving that our own NGFA wont be a better 5th gen ac than pakfa ?, just think abt what Ive said earlier.,you will find the relevant info on internet, I'm not going to search for u.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Jan 2010 22:54

I think the cheapest would be the youngest teenager.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 30 Jan 2010 23:05

India cannot build a 4th generation fighter by itself. Now we think we can build a better 5th generation fighter than Russia? We have yet to build a single operational air-to-air or air-to-ground missile. Look at the number and types of air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles the Russians have it is truly staggering.

Let us not delude ourselves and call the PAK-FA an Indo-Russian fighter. It is already flying and we have contributed nothing. While others are sprinting we are just starting to crawl. But crawling is better than lying comatose. We are moving slowly but we are moving. We just need time.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 31 Jan 2010 07:19

Marten wrote: 1. You used the term MCA first. Why be deliberately obtuse now? Officially, it stands as the NGFA, but is also referred to as the MCA, AMCA etc.

Official name as of now is AMCA. NGFA was the name reported by Shiv Aroor...in his blog.

2. We do not have those capabilities at this point. Of course, we can wait a decade to build our capability in terms of the materials and delay the program further. (PS: Please don't let folks sway your judgment by bringing up RAM coatings as the redeeming stealth feature.)

I think there would be terms on ToT in PAK-FA/FGFA joint venture and we will get access to some classifieds if not all....and not to mention but it is a fact that we have poineered aspects of Composite Materials on our own.

3. to be nationalistic and pretend we will build only the best and nothing else will do. That is exactly the approach that has brought about these immense delays.

I think it is everybody desire to be/have the best....in the space they are..and delays are unavoidable for many reasons... even USA needed atleast a decade to get F-22s....what do you expect from US.

If only our wise folks at the IAF would accept a sound airframe with lesser capabilities that could be built up as a platform over the next decade instead of insisting on a readymade off the shelf super duper death star. Think about it.

I am thinking...

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 31 Jan 2010 08:43

Samay wrote:gripen isn't that cheap,it would cost as much as a rafale ,check its cost.

check where??? You must be kidding?? Where did you get that from?

Good old Wiki reports Unit cost for Gripen $48 million & Rafale $67.2 million

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition

Also, have you heard of the Brazilian competition?? and the fuss about Rafale being too expensive compared to the Gripen??? The Rafale is 30 - 50 % more expensive than the Gripen.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE60B1EH20100112

If the recent Thai purchase is taken as an example, the gripens cost $55 mil WITH spares, support & training..

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htproc ... 00130.aspx

Welcome to post other links claiming otherwise..

All said and done the EF still remains the most expensive craft in the race with the Rafale coming second. Whereas the Mig-35 is the cheapest followed by the Gripen. The F-16's and SH falls somewhere in the middle rung.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Jan 2010 14:05

A question to the learned maulanas:

--Given the fact that FGFA is out in the open and IAF will have inkling on what to expect (I'm sure the Russians have shared more info with IAF/India than we know of) in terms of capabilities, can we see a tilt towards mud-movers in the MRCA contest with choice of a/c with proven and superlative A2G capabilities?

--The reason I ask is that by 2014, SU-30MKI will be in IAF colors in planned strength and we'll have an oustanding fighter in Air Dominance role. Hopefully, Tejas will be Sqn. service in strength (2-4 Sqn.) and growing in number.So the Point Defence role and air dominance role will be taken care of.

--What IAF may want is a fighter like F/A-18SH with excellent A2G capability and a very wide range of weapon set.Add the E-Attack version to the deal.While the WVR capability of the F/A-18SH is not something considered topnotch as compared to eurp-canards or its earlier version (as per the posts on this thread), can it not hold on its own against the PAF/PLAAF in this regime?Also,with the most evolved AESA and a good BVR missile+AWACS controlled environment, wouldn't it have an upper hand in BVR missile?

--Will not the a/c fit perfectly as part of "system" in Indian context and complement the triad of LCA-MMRCA-SU-30MKI with PAK-FA sitting on the top as apex predator?

--And finally, won't the a/c have lowest flyaway cost amongst the twin-engined a/c in contest considering the involvement of USN?
PS: My favorite is the Eurofighter

?And not for any technical reason...pure aesthetics onleeee.....

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 01 Feb 2010 00:06

I think the flight of the T-50 has reinforced my original post about the advantages of the SH

All the MRCA contenders are non-stealthy and thus will be 'obsolete' soon. With the lack of stealth and the improvement of missiles, saying one plane turns a degree quicker or another climbs a hair faster is a fool's game. It simply doesn't matter.

What does matter?

1. Supplier diversity: With the MKI, FGFA, 29K and possibly MCA all being directly tied to Russia, it would be prudent to have at least some from an alternative source. However good your relationship with a country is, you should never let them have too much power over you.

1a. Technology diversity: You're already getting Russia's best with the FGFA, what can you possibly gain from the MiG-35? On the other hand selecting the SH opens up a whole different world.

2. Quick availability: The whole point of the MRCA was to get something quickly to help fill declining fleet numbers. With continued MKI buys and the FGFA probably coming in a decade, a plane that takes years of development work (Gripen NG, MiG-35) has questionable value. Even the EF and Rafale are still works in progress. The SH has a hot line with immediate delivery slots available.

India has enough development projects going on, the last thing they need is yet another. In contrast to all the other contenders, the SH just works.

3. Future upgrades: Without stealth and the rapidly diminishing importance of kinetics, the key to 4th gen aircraft survival in the future is without a doubt the electronics. Better radars, better jammers and better sensors will be the decisive factor. The critical thing is that these are not static systems. They have to be continually improved and upgraded. Who will develop these systems? Russia certainly isn't going to fund any upgrades for the MiG-35 since it isn't even certain they are buying any. Sweden simply may not have the resources. France and the EF consortium have shown a distinct lack of urgency to develop upgrades. EF still hasn't figured out what their AESA plan is and Rafale had to be dragged kicking and screaming to AESA because the export market demanded it. The fact that they can't get their act together on such an obvious, no-brainer upgrade does not bode well for future development.

In contrast the USN has been at the forefront of keeping their fleet current, and with the SH expected to remain in the fleet for another 25 years, India can piggyback off its efforts

4. Flexibility: Once the FGFA comes on line and as MKI numbers increase, the emphasis of the MRCA will likely shift from A2A. For the MRCA to recoup its investment, it will be vital for it to find other ways to make itself useful. While others offer some of these capabilities, none of them offer the complete package the SH does.

a. Buddy refueling: The SH can carry the most fuel in a buddy configuration
b. A2G capability: The SHs ground attack capability is second to none.
c. 2 man cockpit: The future might require additional eyes, such as having a drone controller. Having a 2 man cockpit increases flexibility and makes it more future proof. (EF only has 2 man cockpit available as a trainer and Rafale doesn't have 2 man available for carrier version)
d. Carrier capability: The usefulness and flexibility here is obvious
e. Electronic attack: Unique to the SH is the potential to be converted to Growler/Grizzly configuration, which would be highly relevant with the arrival of the FGFA. (Stealth still needs escort jammers to help disrupt the radars)

5. Cost: While maybe not the cheapest upfront, it should still be very reasonable (the USN can buy new SHs for $50 million and that could be cheaper with local assembly). But initial purchase price is only part of the total lifecycle costs. Routine parts and maintenance for low run aircraft like the Gripen NG and MiG-35 and maybe even Rafale will be increasingly difficult and/or impossible to find in the future. In contrast the USN stockpiles massive amounts of spares, guaranteeing a future supply of parts at reasonable prices. And then there's upgrades. As mentioned in the 'Future upgrades' section, no other plane comes with the sort of guaranteed upgrades the SH does. Sure India COULD develop its own upgrades and COULD do its own integration testing, but that would be cost prohibitive. Far better and cheaper to let someone else pay for all the upfront work. The SH fleet is large enough for the USN to fund development work aimed solely at reducing it's cost of ownership. For instance the USN funded to EDE project to reduce engine maintenance costs. No other plane has that sort of backing.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 01 Feb 2010 03:00

IMO, India isn't going to go for US aircraft (doesnt want to be arm twisted - Bad history, yep you know the rest).

France: Rafale - (Unlikely. They themselves conceed privately that they dont have a very good chance) But I would have thought we would be able to get a very good deal on Rafale, because the french are desperate to get this out there. We can push em hard so I wouldn't rule them out.

EuroFighter: Very likely. Yes it has US input, but most will probably be european, its a phased approach before completely trusting the US. Decent if you want interoperability with nations that have/will sign security agreements with your country. Some that rely on Indian protection.

Gripen: Maybe

Russkies: Mig 29K ordered already, Mig-35... mmmmm... naaaah. They will get the FGFA bonanza and other orders anyway, T-90 is the centre of our armored forces. We also have the MKI. Thats enough russkie eqpt for me.

Just my opinions.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 01 Feb 2010 06:46

US has been arming Pakistan since eternity. Buying US teens is like subsidizing the gifts to Pakistan. US teens , a strict , no-no.

The pakistanis have been milking US all along and making a fool of it for years,even the Chinese have been constantly rubbing it the wrong way and getting rewarded. US respects only bad boys.No need to be playing good with a superpower in decline.

Unless India squeezes US, it will never get rewarded. ISI can do 9/11 and help in plotting and killing CIA operatives in Afghanistan and still laugh all the way to the bank. These americans are damn stupid and selfish. Their policy is gifting arms to pakistan against India and make India purchase arms from US against China.US is playing Pak against India and India against China. The sooner, the amrikis are kicked out of Afghanistan by the Taliban , the better for India. Pak's taps will run dry for sometime. Instead of asking US to stay in Afghanistan , India should be actively and speedily preparing for the scenario post US exit. A bankrupt US economy cannot stay in Afghanistan forever.The sooner they exit, the better it is.US has never returned victorious from any of its adventures

They can spout all the crap on CNN , FOX news, BBC etc etc but despite all the satellites, all the CIA operatives across the world , it has failed to capture/kill the person who matters the most in this war on terror, OBL. He is still scotfree.

A single man has brought the Almighty
superpower on its knees.

US economic policies have failed and so has its military policies.What a loser ?
US hegemony in arms market must be broken by supporting other companies.Here i end my rant.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 01 Feb 2010 17:05

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... 4.8H8IJso0

India May Buy More Than 126 Fighter Jets, Boeing Says
Feb. 1 (Bloomberg) -- India may order “many more” than the 126 fighter jets it has sought bids for as it upgrade its armed forces, according to Boeing Co.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Feb 2010 17:18

shiv wrote:Let me start a conspiracy theory on page 1 of this renewed thread.

Bangalore's government have actually come up with what I think is a great idea. Instead of allowing walls (of government property) to be painted over by yahoos and covered with free ads and movie posters - the walls are being painted with colorful India/Karnataka themes.

Now on one wall around a DRDO building are paintings of the LCA, Prithvi, Agni I, Arjun and an aircraft that looks like guess what........

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 01 Feb 2010 19:33

jaladipc wrote:
SaiK wrote:willy.. create a scandal to cancel a project!!?
just pass on the news to TOI. soooo chimple.they will make it a huge fuss and not even the CBI or the contenders know if such thing has really happened.
And the investigation will take a good couple of years while FGFA progress and domestic MKI production ramps up and MOD will change his mind on spending that ransom for a 4.5 gen when 5th gen nears production stage.
If any bribery scandal can make good for India,it has to be the cancelling of MMRCA deal

And in the meantime buy a few more squadrons of Rambhas from Russia/HAL. By that time all the aircraft should be obsolete.

K

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 Feb 2010 20:04

Shiv ji, what in the world is that? Secret new HAL aircraft with multiple wings?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Feb 2010 20:49

F/A-18 for MMRCA? ... Boeing seems optimistic of the SH's chances (like all the other manufacturers about their respective aircrafts). Joe Song- vice president of Boeing Co. for the Asia-pacific region speaking at the Singapore air show..

On India, Song said Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet was "in a very good position to win" a contract for the purchase of 126 multi-role fighters worth up to $10.4 billion. He expected the contract would be awarded in 2012.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSSGE6 ... arketsNews

I think the operational AESA is SH's biggest trump card which might shift the tide.. but knowing how close the race is..and with different aircrafts providing different advantages, some political & some technological, I would rather keep my money in my pocket at this stage..

Another interesting story doing the rounds, about our Italian Foreign minister suggesting that the EF is leading the race and will make it to the shortlist of four or five... Which means 1 if not 2 will definitely be out fairly early.. That would be such a huge blow to the manufacturer.. I guess we might have to wait until 2011 - 12 till the winner is announced but we might have to leave 1 (at least 1, if not 2) unfortunate aircraft out of our discussions by the end of this year (whichever doesn't make the shortlist)..

I guess everyones got a favorite, when it comes to a winner... But what about which one is going to be out of the race early?? Any brave guesses??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Feb 2010 21:07

Shameek wrote:Shiv ji, what in the world is that? Secret new HAL aircraft with multiple wings?

I'll be damned if I knew