Indian Army: News & Discussion

[Sudip]

New document posted by RAND Corporation

Preparing and Training for the Full Spectrum of Military Challenges Insights from the Experiences of China, France, the United Kingdom, India, and Israel

Chapter on India from pg 219 - pg 236

[ramana]

New document posted by RAND Corporation

Preparing and Training for the Full Spectrum of Military Challenges Insights from the Experiences of China, France, the United Kingdom, India, and Israel

Chapter on India from pg 219 - pg 236

Rohitvats and Gagan, can you guys work on a similar chapter for TSP? RayC and Tsarakar can be the mentors.

[Craig Alpert]

I doubt that 26/11 operation could be mopped up in matter of hrs regardless of the tech used (Kashmir Hotel Gun battle was not handled by IA). But that is a different matter. I am curious regarding any particular tech you had in mind that would have helped the SP forces. I can think of only 2 major tech which come in handy during such operations, Night Vision and Comm Surveillance equipment. Both of which NSG possessed. Though NSG was hampered by the limitation of current NVGs which cause temp blindness when light intensity is suddenly increase due to any reason(blast, flare, rifle flash or even switching on the tube light). So single eye piece NVGs would have been of great help. But other than that, I cannot think of anything.
Eg: Shields and battering rams would have been ineffective. Laser pointers would have caused problems.
What are your thoughts on this matter?

Your correct in your assessment that no matter the amount of technology, 26/11 would not have been mopped up in matter of hours. I guess I should rephrase that and say that it would have cut down the time from 3 days to probably a day or 2 at most. My reasons to support my assessment are obviously related to the technological advances that the terrorists did not posses. It was my understanding (please do correct me if i'm worng) that the NSG/Marcos and other responders DID NOT possess Night fighting capabilities, and this was primarily one of the reason why they could not engage them effectively during the night. Of course there were other shit load of reasons for this also such as (the hope of wasting out their ammo, exhausting them, rescuing the hostages, not knowing the layout and the number of terrorists and most important battling Fire) but i'll keep it to the point. The NVG that you mentioned NSG possessed with the description sounds like they are of the older generation. These need to long be retired/upgraded to get them the latest, which DOES NOT get affected by lightning and infact integrates Thermal/IR vision to go along with NVG. The comm equipments that they used to gather "evidence" I believe they should have used it and Jammed the signals and see the reactions of the terriorsts when they were forced to act on their own (without the obvious lack of motivation, this would have been a game changer IMO). The barriers is something used by SWAT but they are designed for a low intensity warfare and used extensively where houses are made of Wood. A place like Taj, which like the name is no weak structure and the stones, marbles make it extremely heavy for them to navigate. I agree the door barriers/busters would sure come in handy, but the hotel doors again weren't like ordinary doors either. But this is one equpiment that would have help them precious amount of time. Flash bangs, tear gas these have no effect on the NVG/Thermal or IR visions as their sole purpose is to provide the SFG the vision and blind the enemy. The use of robots to conduct surveillance would have helped tremendously and it would give them a clear vision, without exposing them to the dangers they had to face. I quite don't understand how the use of laser pointers would have crossed problems? I believe they are used as a "targeting aide" at best. I suppose one might assume that laser would expose the assassin, but I doubt the terrorists had that much time on their hand to sit and assess where the pointer was being originated from.
As much as I HATE ADMITTING SAYING THIS, I have gotta hand it to the masters of the TSP that their tactics were definitely innovative. Putting the building on fire, definitely cause huge hampers in fighting these insurgents, and of course our lack of preparedness (note NOT the NSG's WILL) along with lack of technological systems proved costly for our troops. The kashmir gun battle, (as I stand corrected wasn't the IA) could have also used these equipment. Moreover, since the nature of that building suggest that the BSF?CRPF? used sheets from mine proof vehicle to protect themselves from fire induces the "lessons learned" from 26/11. It is here, where a wall penetrating radar could have used to help the forces battle these insurgents better. With their positions exposed and with the advantage of the night, they could have shot them dead in less than an hour, but due to the lack of both of these technologies, the forces battled it out and ultimately shot them dead. Who knows with these equipments, we might have been able to capture them alive get some more information and then probably shot them dead in an encounter to save the embarrassing "fair trial under a democratic nation" like that of Ajmal Kasab, and Ansari. (in the news today, Ansari's lawyer was shot dead today)

[Surya]

It was my understanding (please do correct me if i'm worng) that the NSG/Marcos and other responders DID NOT possess Night fighting capabilities

WRONG

[Gaur]

It was my understanding (please do correct me if i'm worng) that the NSG/Marcos and other responders DID NOT possess Night fighting capabilities

No, you are wrong there. Both Marcos and NSG used NVDs during 26/11. If you search, you will find a media pic of a NSG commando with a NVG sticking out of his backpack. Unfortunately, I am not able to find the pic at present. Will post if found.

The NVG that you mentioned NSG possessed with the description sounds like they are of the older generation. These need to long be retired/upgraded to get them the latest, which DOES NOT get affected by lightning and infact integrates Thermal/IR vision to go along with NVG.

NVGs pose certain problems for Close quarter combat. Even the latest Gen 3 NVDs in use by US Army and Special forces use the same principle of amplifying the intensity of light and pose the same problems. So, no, this does not prove that the NVDs used by NSG were of older generation.
Now you raise an interesting point. Why not use Thermal/IR vision? My knowledge of NVDs is limited. So I had once asked this exact question in newbie thread. I had asked if the Thermal Vision Devices will face the same problem or not? What are their relative advantages/disadvantages? Is their image resolution satisfactory? Unfortunately I did not get an answer.
This is an interesting point because other than Video games and Movies, I have not yet seen Thermal goggles in use. I have only seen Thermal Sights for weapons. The only reason I can guess for that is that perhaps it is difficult to see through iron/optical sights when using thermal Vision Goggles. Perhaps even impossible?
I would really appreciate if someone having knowledge on this matter would post a reply.

The comm equipments that they used to gather "evidence" I believe they should have used it and Jammed the signals and see the reactions of the terriorsts when they were forced to act on their own (without the obvious lack of motivation, this would have been a game changer IMO).

I agree. Perhaps they lacked sufficient jamming capabilities? IDK for sure. NSG certainly have ordered such equipment now.
AFAIK, this is not the work of SAG but of SRG. And i do not know if SRG were even present. However feel free to correct me if I am wrong on these accounts.

I agree the door barriers/busters would sure come in handy, but the hotel doors again weren't like ordinary doors either.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I had in fact mentioned that battering rams would not have been of much use in Taj for precisely the reason you mention.

Flash bangs, tear gas these have no effect on the NVG/Thermal or IR visions as their sole purpose is to provide the SFG the vision and blind the enemy.

Flash bangs and tear gas may/maynot have been used. We cannot say for sure. So I would not comment on this. However, I would like to point out that other gaseous methods would not have been overly effective considering that the area was fairly large and open with open windows.

The use of robots to conduct surveillance would have helped tremendously and it would give them a clear vision, without exposing them to the dangers they had to face.

Again, I agree. Considering that we have developed Daksh, I think this problem would be solved now. But it was serious handicap for an urban CT force like NSG to not have such capabilities with them. But considering the overall management of NSG, this is sad but not surprising.

I quite don't understand how the use of laser pointers would have crossed problems? I believe they are used as a "targeting aide" at best. I suppose one might assume that laser would expose the assassin, but I doubt the terrorists had that much time on their hand to sit and assess where the pointer was being originated from.

Yes, I had the same reason in mind regarding Laser pointers. But IMO it would not take more than a fraction of a second to know the origin of the pointer and be warned/prepared. After all, the laser is nothig but a straight line. However, feel free to disagree. This is merely my opinion.

As much as I HATE ADMITTING SAYING THIS, I have gotta hand it to the masters of the TSP that their tactics were definitely innovative. Putting the building on fire, definitely cause huge hampers in fighting these insurgents, and of course our lack of preparedness (note NOT the NSG's WILL) along with lack of technological systems proved costly for our troops.

Yes, it was an embarrassment. But IMO, the managerial problems were far worse and astonishing than the tech constraints.

The kashmir gun battle, (as I stand corrected wasn't the IA) could have also used these equipment. Moreover, since the nature of that building suggest that the BSF?CRPF? ....

The forces involved in that particular operation were CRPF and J&K Police. You are right. Tech would have helped here. But sadly, I doubt that we will see much tech being provided to CRPF and Police in near future.

[pgbhat]

Craig-ji please go through these archives...they have some detailed discussion of stuff that happened during mumbai ops.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 37#p586037.

[Gaur]

New document posted by RAND Corporation

Preparing and Training for the Full Spectrum of Military Challenges Insights from the Experiences of China, France, the United Kingdom, India, and Israel

Chapter on India from pg 219 - pg 236

An interesting read. Thanks.

[Craig Alpert]

Craig-ji please go through these archives...they have some detailed discussion of stuff that happened during mumbai ops.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 37#p586037.

ahhh.. I stand corrected. Thank you for jogging my memory.

[kancha]

Brave Major dies fighting chain snatcher - Deccan Chronicle

[Craig Alpert]

Armymen arrested for robbery, murder

[Avinash R]

Army to buy sniper simulators to train sharp shooters

New Delhi, Feb 14 (PTI)

The Army will buy sniper simulators to hone the skills of sharp shooters to use them during anti-terror operations such as 26/11 Mumbai attacks and in counter-insurgency missions.

To procure the simulators, the Army's Infantry School at Mhow in Madhya Pradesh has issued a tender (Request For Proposal in defence parlance) which would be finalised within the next three months to acquire the system soon, Defence Ministry officials said here on Sunday.

"The simulator should enable training of a sniper so as to assist him to fire with a realistic feel of all types of ammunition authorised with it, steel core and sniper load," the RFP said.

The qualitative requirement for the simulator is that it should provide for the sniper to fire on stationary and moving targets at different simulated ranges from 100 metres to 1,300 metres.

It should be simple to operate, sturdy and robust with a modular design and should not be dependent on air conditioning.

The simulator should enable target depiction using camouflage and concealment of the target should be possible, as also capable of projection by a Video Projection System on a screen during indoor training.The actual tactical and combat situations should be depicted in different kinds of terrain available, with multiple target depiction possible simultaneously to enable a firer to prioritise the targets and engage using multiple weapons.

The simulator, the RFP said, should have programmes to project different terrain situations such as mountains with heights upto 9,000 feet, jungles, high altitude areas with heights ranging from 9,000 feet to 19,000 feet, built-up urban and rural areas, plains and deserts.

Trainee snipers should be able to practice firing both during day and night conditions, bad weather like rain, fog and snow.

The system should take into account the effects of wind and ballistic properties of the ammunition authorised, and also show the flight path of the round fired and percentage of error committed when the shot misses the target.

[ASPuar]

The Union Home Secretary, GK Pillai, IAS, explains the difference in culture between the Indian Army and the Indian police forces.

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/ ... =EDITORIAL

"In the Army, the officer eats after his jawans, but in the police it is the opposite".

In these confusing times, when the media has been given a mandate to badmouth the armed forces, let us see this nugget for what it is. A candid admission of what everyone in government already knows.

[Avinash R]

Two mountain divisions being raised in the North-East: Antony
February 15, 2010

[ASPuar]

Meanwhile, it seems that armymen are wearing badges of rank not equivalent to their pay scale, vis-a-vis the Central and State police forces. Note, the pay band, and grade pay are the determinants of seniority between different ranks in government service. This situation has been prevailing since 1955 or so.

Reference:
http://bsf.nic.in/structure.htm

1. CPO Assistant Comdt/Group A Deputy Superintendent of Police
Scale of Pay: PB3 + GP5400
Rank worn: Three stars on epaulette

1. Lieutenant Indian Army
Scale of Pay: PB3+GP5400
Rank worn: Two stars on epaulette

2. Inspector, CPO/State police
Scale of Pay: PB2+GP4600
Rank worn: Three stars with stripe

2. Subedar, Indian Army
Scale of Pay: PB2+GP4600
Rank worn: 2 Stars with stripe

3. Sub Inspector of Police
Scale of Pay: PB2+4200
Rank worn: 2 stars with stripe

3. Naib Subedar, Indian Army
Scale of Pay: PB2+4200
Rank worn: 2 stars with stripe

4. Assistant SI of Police
Scale of Pay: PB2+GP2800
Rank worn: One star with stripe

4. Havildar, Indian Army
Scale of Pay: PB2+GP2800
Rank worn: 3 chevrons (stripes)

The anomaly continues downwards. This largely arose because in the 1950s, the police forces convinced the govt to upgrade their badges of rank. This was agreed to, on the agreement that it will not mean that their status gets upgraded, but memory is short, so the officer cadre of the police (IPS) has upgraded its ranks vis a vis the army over time. As a case in point, till the 1950s, a DIG of Police wore the badges of rank of a lieutenant colonel, and was paid accordingly. An IGP (Then the highest rank), wore the badges of a Full colonel.

An interesting piece of history.

[krishnan]

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensen ... 0simulator

CAE, the specialist training and simulation provider has teamed up with the Tata group to develop a tank simulator for the T90 and T72 tanks. This is in respose to an RFP from the Indian MoD for simulators for Russian origin tanks.

[Sanku]

http://getahead.rediff.com/report/2010/ ... hauhan.htm

This author, wife and mom was once a soldier

Bhavna Chauhan graduated from the Officer's Training Academy in Chennai in March, 2001. Nine years after she completed her course, served in the army and decided to stay at home, Chauhan chose to fictionalise her account. The book Where Girls Dare, released by Penguin Books India [ Images ], is part of their Metro Reads series and promises to be a great travel companion (click here to read an excerpt).

In the book, Chauhan follows the antics of 52 lady cadets (LCs) who train alongside 400 gentleman cadets (GCs), some of whom believe that girls in the armed forces is a bad idea.

Chauhan currently lives in Roorkee with her army engineer husband and a four-year-old son

[manjgu]

ASPaur.. the difference between IAS and IPS is that

... the IAS eat before the IPS

[arun]

X Posted. Josy Joseph on the topic of the Indian Army dumping the INSAS in favour of imports in DNA:

Now, army wants to dump the indigenous Insas rifle

[shyams]

X Posted. Josy Joseph on the topic of the Indian Army dumping the INSAS in favour of imports in DNA:

Now, army wants to dump the indigenous Insas rifle

It appears like the arms lobby has penetrated to the highest levels of military. Very sad... also makes me very angry.

[nachiket]

^^ From the DNA article

The Insas and Arjun are indigenously made, and are among rare successes for India, which is heavily dependent on foreign firms for defence equipment.

AoA! I can't believe my eyes. The words "Arjun" and "success" in the same sentence? Must be surely a first for the Indian media. Anyways here's to hoping that the DDM might finally be coming around to accepting that the Arjun is actually a success.

[ramana]

X Posted. Josy Joseph on the topic of the Indian Army dumping the INSAS in favour of imports in DNA:

Now, army wants to dump the indigenous Insas rifle

f
There is a re-evaluation going on in armies round the world about stopping power of rifles. I mentioned in the small arms thread. The logic of 5.56mm was more for conventional armies with military hospitals etc where the wounded would slow them down, Now they want to shoot them dead preferably at long ranges.

[RayC]

L98A1

The standard issue for the British Army.

Effective Range 450m with standard sight.



INSAS

Effective range 450m

One does not require to fire beyond this range with a rifle. For engagement beyond this range there is a plethora of other weapons.

Ammunition carried by the soldier is not limitless and resupply is not instantaneous. Therefore, the temptation to take on the enemy at greater ranges where accuracy is not guaranteed and in the bargain finishing the ammunition even before the battle is joined, is curbed by not requiring to have rifles that fire beyond 300m which is the ideal range to identify and take on the enemy with naked eyes.

Using a scope the eye cannot perceive the immediate environment around him (the soldier) since the eye is looking through the scope in what is known as the 'far distance'. Firing with the naked eye and using iron sights allow one to alongside observe the immediate combat environment.

[Singha]

are there even any real thermal imager that can be fixed on helmets?

my understanding of thermal imagers may be outdated but arent they bulky, need a special cooling and heavy enough to mount only in tanks, IFVs and airborne pods?

[RayC]

The HeltmetIR is a small, lightweight, state-of-the-art, ballistic helmet mounted thermal imager. Unlike image intensified night observation devices, this thermal imager can see in total darkness, through foliage, smoke, and fog. It incorporates digital signal processing with integrated compact optics and rugged packaging with attention to ergonomic detail. The HelmetIR quickly attaches to the issue flipup helmet mount (A3256368) used with standard night vision goggles. This system can be easily interchanged between team members equipped with helmet-mounted NVGs.
Thermal imager, helmet mount (A3256368), eyecup assembly, objective lens cover, display lens cover, soft carrying case, 9-volt battery, operator's manual, lens brush, lens paper.

Thermal Imager

FEATURES HelmetIR-50:
Focal Plane Array
Material & Structure:Amorphous Silicon Microbolometer (ASi)
Pixel Count (Resolution):160 x 120, 47 micron pitch
Spectral Response:7-14m
Thermal Sensitivity: 100 mK

Thermal Imaging Performance
Start-up Time: 5 sec
Range To Detect Human Activity: 320 meters
Infrared Polarity:White Hot
Optics FOV (H X V): 12° x 17°

Video
Video Refresh Rate: .20 Hz
Viewfinder Display: OLED

Power
Power Source: 2 AA batteries (lithium)
Operating Time :7+ hours

Physical Characteristics
Size (inches): 3 x 3 x 3 (plus eyepiece)
Weight: 1 pound, 3 ounces

Details

[ASPuar]

ASPaur.. the difference between IAS and IPS is that

... the IAS eat before the IPS

Is it? In the corruption sweepstakes I think they run about even...

[manjgu]

even !! )

IAS wallahs are far far ahead ... by miles...

[Samay]

I read somewhere that only those cannons are fired whose shells are made of currency notes, ways are devised to milk from every paisa spend , a way bureaucracy works in India, Mod is not an exception. Someone who thinks out of the box should be given its charge

[ArmenT]

I don't know where it was posted that INSAS cannot mount a Sight.

The above is an INSAS with a Sight.

The post was about the lack of provision to fit a picatinny rail.

INSAS Excalibur Mark-I does come with a picatinny rail.
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/23.htm

[sumshyam]

No rethink on Arjun tank: DRDO chief

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) dispelled apprehensions that there was a question mark over the capability of the indigenously manufactured Arjun tank.

Dr. Saraswat said that half of the 124 tanks ordered by the Army had already rolled out, and there was no rethink about their induction. The comparative evaluation referred to in media reports was nothing but a trial of the tank’s role in the overall arsenal of the Army. “It is a normal process of identifying the role the tank will play in the plans,” he said.

“Let me make it clear, that these are not evaluation trials of the Arjun tank, as those trials, including in summer and winter months, are over and more than 50 per cent of the tanks have now rolled out of the factory for induction.”

[Murugan]

175th Anniversary of Assam Rifles is being celebrated.

A special day long Yog/Pranayam session was organized by AR with Baba Ramdev at Shilong Meghalay.

Astha and Sanskar TV had broadcast these sessions. It was worth watching the Indian exercise (vyayam) with 12 types of Dand and 8 Baithak to increase the fitness levels of jawans.

http://www.sentinelassam.com/meghalaya/story.php?

Lt General Karan Singh Yadav, Major General Nowhar and Air Marshal Nehra were present at the sessions. AM Nehra gave a very motivating speech at the end.

IA is witnessing reduced internal conflict and suicides after including Yog/Pranayam in their exercises - Ramdevji claimed.

[tsarkar]

“Case in point, 26/11, Kashmir Hotel Gun battle could surely have used these night fighting equipments and the IA would have mopped this up with THEIR tactics and YEARS of experience within HOURS and not Days that it took BECAUSE OF LACK of these technological equipments!”

Craig – I noticed this only now, so replying.

The marcos were fully capable of going inside guns blazing like Moscow theatre or Beslan.

You need to measure performance of our forces against the orders they were given. The first set of instructions were to secure the sites and extricate the trapped hostages.

Rules of engagement were very stiff, they couldn’t return fire if civilians were in vicinity. They couldn’t return fire unless they were certain their target was indeed a terrorist even if they were under fire from a specific direction. They checked every nook and corner multiple times to ensure they were clear before they finally engaged. That required remarkable restraint. I doubt whether Americans/Russians/Israeli have similar rules of engagement.

In Entebbe, many Israelis were killed in friendly fire. However no one complained.

The general Indian psyche is to blame our government and forces when things go wrong. Forces are the soft targets. Can you imagine the family’s/public/media reaction to a friendly fire incident? The public outcry would have ensured the commando went to jail.

When Rupen Katiyal was killed in Flight 814, his family went to the media and blamed the government for not acting fast and releasing the terrorists. And that, probably, in a major way influenced the cabinet decision.

Night fighting equipment only shows, but doesn’t positively identify persons or objects. How do you know it’s the terrorists and not your team members who were searching another room and came into your room through another door/passage? Or other terrified civilians? This is true even using Imaging Infra Red.

In Kashmir, care has to be taken bullets or RCL rounds don’t damage any adjoining structures. In India, it takes a lifetime to build a house. And most people have emotional attachment to it. How does one win hearts and minds when you level that in a minute? Just paying money doesn’t compensate for the effort and toil of building the house. Just paying money doesn’t compensate sleeping in the open.

Will any BR member be happy if I blew up their house with terrorists inside and paid him money, while he, his wife, kids and mom had to stay in the footpath, no clothes except what he wearing, sending kids to school minus books/wash/clean clothes, etc?

In Hollywood movies, maps with layout appear mysteriously. In India layout maps are not available (you’re suppose to file it with the municipality but no one does). Streets change layout, buildings and hotel change layout in a clumsy manner. The US forces blow things up, but we can’t do so in India.

“As much as I HATE ADMITTING SAYING THIS, I have gotta hand it to the masters of the TSP that their tactics were definitely innovative. Putting the building on fire, definitely cause huge hampers in fighting these insurgents, and of course our lack of preparedness (note NOT the NSG's WILL) along with lack of technological systems proved costly for our troops.”

Did you watch the transcripts of the conversation between the terrorists and their handlers shown by Farid Zakaria? The handlers clearly say they’re watching on TV and they need to set it on fire to have an impact on the world. The terrorists play for the gallery. Media is their most powerful weapon. Indian media loves creating hype for TRP, not realizing it has become an unwitting tool for terrorists. An immediate media lockdown was required, however no politician had the guts. Army doesn’t have the authority. When barred, media starts transmitting Army has something to hide.

Did you watch the movie, the Siege or Virtuosity? In both movies, Denzel Washington orders a media lockdown as the first step in a terrorist incident.

[manjgu]

tsarkar.. well said. You gotta forgive the armchair general/warriors who proliferate this forum , majority without knowledge of the real world and brought up on a staple diet of hollywood flicks..

[tsarkar]

Thanks manjgu, but nothing against Craig or any member, he’s only being inquisitive, that that’s a very welcome trait.

I can understand the frustration felt by him and many others, including myself. The urge to do something, yet not knowing what to do, with every option having its pros and cons.

I had initiated a request after the 93 Mumbai blasts for setting up a local levy from among local fishing communities. It got buried between files and departments. And history repeated itself in 2008.

I guess these incidents remind us that freedom isnt free, and that every citizen is on the front line.

[manjgu]

Yes, i agree.. all members are true indians and well wishers of the nation. this total inaction on the part of govt and babus is quite killing to any patriot.

talking of the indian psyche, (though it may sound inhuman/insensitive) our ability to take casualities and carry on must be quite frustrating to the enemy ... with the very little premium on human life ( aam aadmi !! ) in india, i see that as a poweful weapon in our hands. we just seem to forget things so easily that every event is just treated as a fresh wound??

talking of NVG's and TI's , the anti Taliban forces are finding the going tough in A'tan... if high technology was so much of a winner, should not the Talibs be streamrolled in a day ??

[Brando]

talking of the indian psyche, (though it may sound inhuman/insensitive) our ability to take casualities and carry on must be quite frustrating to the enemy ... with the very little premium on human life ( aam aadmi !! ) in india, i see that as a poweful weapon in our hands. we just seem to forget things so easily that every event is just treated as a fresh wound??

Actually, if you see the general perception amongst India's neighbors, that kind of attitude is viewed as cowardice by the Pakistanis and even the Chinese. Most of the world was shocked that India did nothing to retaliate for Mumbai despite having such a huge military apparatus. Even the Pakistanis can't fathom it and they are content to believe that Indians are merely too scared to do anything serious while secretly being relieved. IMO, history has shown Indians to have an implosive personality that is they are willing to accept a lot of abuse before finally exploding into a senseless bloodbath.

The real abuse is being faced by the Army soldiers and the BSF soldiers who have been fighting this low level war for decades. It must be very frustrating for a BSF officer or an Army officer to take shelling and rockets from the Pakistani side without having the permission to destroy the Paki guns and rocket launchers while they loose colleges to injuries!

[Surya]

Sigh

For heavens sake - lets stop believing this nonsense that we are just quiet as a mouse. When needed we retaliate.

[d_berwal]

The real abuse is being faced by the Army soldiers and the BSF soldiers who have been fighting this low level war for decades. It must be very frustrating for a BSF officer or an Army officer to take shelling and rockets from the Pakistani side without having the permission to destroy the Paki guns and rocket launchers while they loose colleges to injuries!

who told you that...

If PA shells IA position.. we do the same to them... and during these duels if they loose bunker or equipment so be it

[anirban_aim]

Deepest regrets, if I'm bringing back an exorcised ghost:

The latest in the Sukna Saga:

http://in.news.yahoo.com/48/20100222/80 ... inter.html

Observing that the Army Rule 180 was 'seriously violated' during the COI, it said, "We fail to understand the manner in which the COI has been conducted. This was not a substantial compliance of the principles of natural justice." The Rule lays down that all officers have the right to be present when some other personnel depose against them during a COI. After today's order, court martial proceedings against the former Military Secretary will have to wait till the fresh COI is over.

This after the HC has refused reprive to Lt Gen. Rath.

I have 2 questions:

1. Why is the this development not being covered at all by champions of propriety in Armed Forces like the NDTV, who went to town asking for AP's head.

2. If this is past the shelf life of Live News then why was the interim HC decision against Rath also ignored ( I ask because it was highlighted by the same custodians of India's moral fabric.)

[ASPuar]

Ha, its like I told you. It was all manufactured brouhaha, and a lot of the folks here on BR fell for it too. The media can make anyone dance.

As for Rath, and the HC decision "Against" him, there was no HC decision against him. The HC simply told his lawyer that it didnt have jurisdiction, and dismissed the case, without prejudicing it.

Simply put, it referred the case to the Armed Forces Tribunal. This was a procedural mistake on the part of Raths lawyer, and thats all the HC said. It had nothing to say about the case at all, and unlike what the media was trying to say, it was not a ruling at all, let alone a ruling against him.

[rohitvats]

^^^Lt.Gen. Rath was the only one attached to Eastern Command under Section 180...MS was not there when the COI proceedings took place...the COI stands null and void in absence of MS having cross examined the witness....