Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 10 Feb 2010 00:49

Sagar G wrote:
Craig Alpert wrote: If the Germans provide us with a piece of shit (for the lack of better word) MTU, why not tie up with TATA?? I mean afterall they OWN Jaguar/Land Rover and we all know LR has built many military vehicles/trucks. Their current Range Rover HSE model (USA) has 500 or 550 ponies, I'm sure with a year or two of DEDICATED R&D and FUNDS TATA can build a MTU with ATLEAST 1500 HP if not more replicating INDIAN enviorment, road and weather conditions. That will help the ARJUN's with A)Indegenious MTU thereby reducing the costs of importing the German MTU, B ) Better RANGE, increasing Fuel Efficieny keeping the Enviorment in mind and C) better HP/WEIGHT ratio, suspensions and Ride quality.

IIRC DRDO is? working on a 1500HP diesel engine for Arjun and also a gas turbine variant.

When? Where? I think this was an inhouse DRDO project to develop an indigenous tank engine for the Arjun Tank.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 10 Feb 2010 01:05

aditp wrote: When? Where? I think this was an inhouse DRDO project to develop an indigenous tank engine for the Arjun Tank.

Development of 1500HP engine

Got this from wikipedia had read it there long time back, don't know whether the project is still going on.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 10 Feb 2010 01:27

^^ Even with that, ther is a 20% Foreign Equipment which basically supplies Turbocharger and Fuel Injector..
Also some "IMPORTED" parts include Aluminium sheets, which again Jaguars are famous for its maxium use and their ZF transmission are normally aluminum forged. Tieing with TATA would make 100% INDEGINOUS Product and a Guranteed Success!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Feb 2010 07:48

Craig Alpert wrote:"70% of Arjun tank has Foreign components." ~ here's a bright

If the Germans provide us with a piece of shit (for the lack of better word) MTU, why not tie up with TATA?? I mean afterall they OWN Jaguar/Land Rover and we all know LR has built many military vehicles/trucks. Their current Range Rover HSE model (USA) has 500 or 550 ponies, I'm sure with a year or two of DEDICATED R&D and FUNDS TATA can build a MTU with ATLEAST 1500 HP if not more replicating INDIAN enviorment, road and weather conditions. That will help the ARJUN's with A)Indegenious MTU thereby reducing the costs of importing the German MTU, B ) Better RANGE, increasing Fuel Efficieny keeping the Enviorment in mind and C) better HP/WEIGHT ratio, suspensions and Ride quality.

I wish someone seriously consulted BRFites as consultants for Defence related Products

just a nitpick, MTU is an acronym for the name of the german engine maker (motor and turbine union or rather the german equivalent of it) not a generic term for diesel engines.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 10 Feb 2010 08:10

MTU India Private Ltd. Located at Pune.

MTU Friedrichshafen GmbH is one of the world's leading manufacturers of large diesel engines and complete drive systems. Together with Detroit Diesel, the company represents the two core brands of the Tognum AG.

In Germany, there are two types of companies: publicly traded and privately held.

The acronym 'GmbH', which is written after the name of the company, designates a company as private in Germany. The letters stand for Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung which, translated literally, means a 'company with limited liability'. GmbH companies are incorporated and, as such, are legal entities unto themselves. These companies must have a minimum of two partners and may be, but do not have to be, owned by a public company.

German companies that are publicly traded are designated as such by the letters 'AG' after the company name. 'AG' is an abbreviation for the German word Aktiengesellschaft, which literally translates to 'corporation' in English.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 12 Feb 2010 18:37

Missile maker Raytheon bidding for tank upgrade in India

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 12 Feb 2010 19:54

More Arjun orders after comparative trials with T-90s
http://www.ptinews.com/news/514749_More ... with-T-90s

The Army is likely to place more orders for indigenous DRDO-developed Arjun tanks after completion of the comparative trials it would be put through with the Russian-origin T-90 tanks later this year.

"After completion of the comparative trials between Arjun and T-90s. We are waiting for it. Then we will decide on future orders (of Arjun for the Army)," Defence Production Secretary R K Singh told reporters here today.

Both the tanks would be put through tests to record their performances in various weather, terrain and night-and-day conditions to determine which one of them is effective in the middle of this year.

The Army, which is at present looking for a futuristic main battle tank for induction and operation after 2020, has already indicated that it would not place any more orders for Arjun apart from the 124 already ordered in 2004.

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 12 Feb 2010 21:16

The Army is likely to place more orders for indigenous DRDO-developed Arjun tanks after completion of the comparative trials it would be put through with the Russian-origin T-90 tanks later this year.

Well, does it mean that the scheduled trial (in March) is on hold for now ??

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 12 Feb 2010 21:24

More news on this ...

More Arjun orders after comparative trials with T-90s
http://www.zeenews.com/news603649.html

Singh said both Arjuns and T-90s were "good" tanks in their own class and that the former's performance was found to be good, when he visited HVF to witness the tank's production and operation.

Uttam · Post by **Uttam** » 12 Feb 2010 22:31

Not sure how much weight should we place on the words of Defense Production Secretary. Sounds more like Babuji of Department of Defense than somebody from Army taking the decision.

sanjaychoudhry wrote:More Arjun orders after comparative trials with T-90s
http://www.ptinews.com/news/514749_More ... with-T-90s

The Army is likely to place more orders for indigenous DRDO-developed Arjun tanks after completion of the comparative trials it would be put through with the Russian-origin T-90 tanks later this year.

"After completion of the comparative trials between Arjun and T-90s. We are waiting for it. Then we will decide on future orders (of Arjun for the Army)," Defence Production Secretary R K Singh told reporters here today.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 12 Feb 2010 22:46

^^ I am pretty sure that Arjun will blow T-90's away on any given day 8:2. Arjun is a lethal beast and Mk2 will be particularly destructive.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Feb 2010 23:54

^^^ A little birdy tells me that serious deliberations are going on about placing order for another 250 Arjun Tanks.

satya · Post by **satya** » 13 Feb 2010 00:22

more than 250

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 13 Feb 2010 07:45

Bad Roads And IEDs Bedevil Afghan Strykers
Pros and Cons of Strykers! Must read..

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 13 Feb 2010 08:12

Rohit that is the best news we have heard on this site in years! Arjun will blow the T-90 away in a even competition or in a war like situation! Rock on Arjun!

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 13 Feb 2010 09:35

since Tank Ex is created by DRDO using the T-72 chassis, and they also made a number of modifications (like Akash transport) why can't they upgrade the T-72's?

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 13 Feb 2010 11:27

Incidentally the new series of mtu 890 is 1/3rd the size of 870 being used by Arjun. Roughly the present engine is 3m^3 while new engines are 1m^3. This means if auto loader plus new engine is employed then the weight of Arjun MArk-2 can fall by 5 tons due to reduction in internal volume.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 13 Feb 2010 14:19

Bheem,

weight of Arjun MArk-2 can fall by 5 tons due to reduction in internal volume

How are you calculating this reduction? Is the weight reduction coming from the reduced size of the engine only? Or are you factoring in a redesign of the whole body to a smaller size, thereby a reduction in overall weight?

In the latter case, wouldn't such a redesign push back time lines for deliveries?

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 13 Feb 2010 15:28

Bheem wrote:Incidentally the new series of mtu 890 is 1/3rd the size of 870 being used by Arjun. Roughly the present engine is 3m^3 while new engines are 1m^3. This means if auto loader plus new engine is employed then the weight of Arjun MArk-2 can fall by 5 tons due to reduction in internal volume.

hehe,
the engine weight right now is 1950kg, so it will not reduce by 5tons

but still it will lead to performance improvement.

MB-838 Ka-501 1030 (1400HP)

btw, Arjun uses MB-838 Ka-501 1030 (1400HP) as per wiki and mtu-online; not MTU870

weight of mtu890 will be around 950kg to 1100kg

so, it will reduce around 1 ton weight and substantial amount of space.
the saved space may be used to carry more fuel or ammo or more armor

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 13 Feb 2010 16:00

I think better to develop our own engine yar. We want a Indian product so let us try to develop all the systems and it may not be too big a thing and beyond out reach.

rajatmisra · Post by **rajatmisra** » 14 Feb 2010 16:46

For bottlenecks regarding delivery schedules by Avadi, other PSUs can also be considered. Long back te first few prototypes were made by BHEL, going by newspaper reports. If there are enough orders, PSUs like BHEL would be happy to set up a dedicated production line.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Feb 2010 17:20

sameer_shelavale wrote:
Bheem wrote:Incidentally the new series of mtu 890 is 1/3rd the size of 870 being used by Arjun. Roughly the present engine is 3m^3 while new engines are 1m^3. This means if auto loader plus new engine is employed then the weight of Arjun MArk-2 can fall by 5 tons due to reduction in internal volume.
hehe,
the engine weight right now is 1950kg, so it will not reduce by 5tons
but still it will lead to performance improvement.

MB-838 Ka-501 1030 (1400HP)

btw, Arjun uses MB-838 Ka-501 1030 (1400HP) as per wiki and mtu-online; not MTU870

weight of mtu890 will be around 950kg to 1100kg

so, it will reduce around 1 ton weight and substantial amount of space.
the saved space may be used to carry more fuel or ammo or more armor

sameer, what he means is that reduction of engine volume will decrease the overall internal volume of the tank => lesser volume to protect => lesser armour needed => lesser weight.

btw, as per ajai shukla the production at avadi is 50/year. that's not too bad. ideally would of course be 124/year which is what he says as well.

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Feb 2010 19:54

Sagar G wrote:Development of 1500HP engine

Got this from wikipedia had read it there long time back, don't know whether the project is still going on.

Subsequent to the Desidoc presentation of March 29, 2007 you linked, CVRDE put out an Expression of Interest on August 21, 2007 seeking a partner for the development and production of a “1500 hp Compact High Specific Power Output Diesel Engine”.

CVRDE is looking to develope a 1500 HP engine with a weight not exceeding 1560 Kg and volume not exceeding 2.2 cubic meters. That and other details of the EOI are available here:

DEVELOPMENT OF 1500 HP ENGINE

No clue on where things have gone on from there. Anyone

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 14 Feb 2010 20:01

arun wrote: Subsequent to the Desidoc presentation of March 29, 2007 you linked, CVRDE put out an Expression of Interest on August 21, 2007 seeking a partner for the development and production of a “1500 hp Compact High Specific Power Output Diesel Engine”.

CVRDE is looking to develope a 1500 HP engine with a weight not exceeding 1560 Kg and volume not exceeding 2.2 cubic meters. That and other details of the EOI are available here:

DEVELOPMENT OF 1500 HP ENGINE

INVITATION FOR EXPRESSION OF INTEREST

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 15 Feb 2010 21:24

Mine-protected vehicles (MPVs) by Ashok Leyland at DefExpo 2010.

Mine-protected vehicles (MPVs) by Tata Motors at DefExpo 2010.

Mine-protected vehicles (MPVs) by Mahindra at DefExpo 2010.
Pics courtesy LiveFist!

Of the 3 designed by the private sector, Which one is the Army planning to Induct?? Not knowing the Exact Specs of the three and looking ONLY AT THE DESIGNS, I would put my money on the Ashok Leyland (AL) version, because the design makes it less intercepted to small arms fires, as the lights/mirrors are concealed well within the original designs and hence less immune. The gun turret Stands out in TATA's but AL isn't bad but could use the full protection that Tata seem to offer. However the seemingly ? (I could be wrong here since I don't have the specs) high ground clearance that AL offers is an added protection along with the V-shaped Hull show's superior designs wrt to Mines/IED's encountered by forces battling the NAXALITES today! Also as an added bonus (to some it might be the opposite) it seems to offer more viewing space (windows) to determine where a possible assault can emulate from?

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 15 Feb 2010 22:10

The TATA model looks similar to COUGAR AFV used by US Amy. I would presume that the Mahindra vehicle would have a bigger engine and superior armor compared to the other two.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Feb 2010 23:36

Rahul M wrote: btw, as per ajai shukla the production at avadi is 50/year. that's not too bad. ideally would of course be 124/year which is what he says as well.

Contrast this with Airbus.

They make one A320 per day at Toulouse,during normal production.

And other Airbuses too, but in lesser numbers are also rolled out.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 16 Feb 2010 01:17

They only assemble various components manufactured elsewhere that make the whole plane there.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 17 Feb 2010 01:30

Army Orders 20 Daksh Indigenous IED Handling ROVs!

The Army has ordered 20 limited series production variants of the DAKSH remotely operated IED handling robot vehicle. The photos above show the Daksh during a demo at DefExpo 2010. A marked success for DRDO's Research & Development (Engineers) at Pune. An order of over 400 units is expected for the MK-II version. Spoke to officers who were part of the user trials of the bot, and they were thrilled with it. More on DRDO's military bots shortly.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 17 Feb 2010 04:51

Tata Motors to Bid for Indian Army Contract

NEW DELHI -- Tata Motors Ltd., India's largest vehicle maker by revenue, will bid for an Indian Army contract worth about 3.5 billion rupees ($75.8 million) to supply 1,000 bullet-proof light trucks in what is likely to further expand the auto maker's presence in the rapidly growing defense equipment market.

"The company is offering vehicles valued at INR3.5 million each," V.S. Noronha, head of defence business at Tata Motors, told a news conference. "We are competing with all local vehicle manufacturers for the Indian Army contract."

Local vehicle makers Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. and Ashok Leyland Ltd. ...

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 17 Feb 2010 07:15

ParGha wrote:India has a much greater strategic motivation/requirement for adopting very fuel efficient - better yet, non-fossil-fuel powered - fighting vehicles. If it means going light, that is OK - one can always expand the artillery and genuinely adopt combined arms ops.

I assume you're talking about ethanol or biodiesel, as they are the only "non-fossil fuels" that could reasonably power an armored fighting vehicle. If you were thinking about battery-electric or hydrogen fuel cell based propulsion, please read up on these systems and then come back to us.

Even ethanol & biodiesel, to be honest, are non-starters. The amount of water and energy that must be expended to grow the feedstock (crops) is typically greater or nearly equal to the amount of energy you get from the biofuel itself.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 17 Feb 2010 07:36

Y. Kanan wrote:
ParGha wrote:India has a much greater strategic motivation/requirement for adopting very fuel efficient - better yet, non-fossil-fuel powered - fighting vehicles. If it means going light, that is OK - one can always expand the artillery and genuinely adopt combined arms ops.
If you were thinking about battery-electric or hydrogen fuel cell based propulsion, please read up on these systems and then come back to us.

Yes. Point me to what a person without a background in material sciences or mechanical engineering and a only passing familiarity with power systems can comprehend.

vina · Post by **vina** » 17 Feb 2010 09:39

Yes. Point me to what a person without a background in material sciences or mechanical engineering and a only passing familiarity with power systems can comprehend.

Err. All you need to know is just one simple thing called the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

Don't be put off by the big sounding name. It has been explained in many "common sense" /"reality check ways" . Choose whichever one you like.

Some examples

Heat cannot generally cannot spontaneously flow from a material at lower temperature to a material at higher temperature --- Clausisus formulation of the 2nd law

.. duh.. obvious innit . They had to invent something called a refrigerator to do it. I am sure one of those stand in you home

It is impossible to convert heat completely into work in a cyclic process -- Kelvin ]

.. Err. there are losses. Zimble onree no ?

It is impossible to extract work by cooling a system cooler than it's surrounding

.. another Kelvin formulation. Another.. duh..Innit obvious thing?.

Basically a reality check , on what is doable when you transform from one form of energy to another.

Please check one of my previous posts where I explained in Halaal Pingrezi (can't get more down to earth than that), when Enqyoob , before he soo -sided himself, tried doing equal equal on warming and heating in the climate change discussions and how I told that since he quoted wrong scriptures to wrong people, he had been banished from the Binori Madrassa because, just like Ooncha and Neech, and 1 Paki == Multiple Kafirs, rising a temperature from 0 to 24 is not the same energy wise as getting it from 48 to 24. Funnily 24 NOT = 24 onree.. If you gain enuff knowlijj in Dharam-o-dynamix to samjhao that, you are "Hafiz" and freshly minted , smartly turned out Yin-jinn-ear and can make intelligent conversation on even Jinn power.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 17 Feb 2010 11:59

L&T-Raytheon to bid for T-72 tank upgrade work

Mr Kotwal said the manufacturing part of the upgrade programme, such as electrical and electronic integration for the project, would be done at Talegaon near Pune. Under the proposal, Raytheon will provide infrared imaging sights and electronics to improve target accuracy and the overall system lethality of the tanks.

The company has provided 20,000 thermal sights to over 15 countries.

L&T will provide fire control systems and sensors. The final integration will be done with the customer support.

Mr Kotwal said the collaboration with Raytheon would open avenues for the partners at the global level. L&T could build on this association and get into segments that suit it best, he said. Mr Kotwal, however, did not divulge details about the project size and other details.

Lets see how OFB and Russia to this development. If implemented the upgradation T-72 by L&T collaboration, it will be path braking for Indian defense.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 18 Feb 2010 01:14

DDMites??? I think I posted this earlier that CAE was going to build simulators for the IA for T-72 Tanks and the T-90 Tanks... Then I read THIS???? Please DO read the Comments Section!

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 18 Feb 2010 16:04

Guns and vehicles: the Mahindras bet big on defence

A riskier challenge ahead for the Mahindra group is its ambitious venture into developing and manufacturing the Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) for the Indian Army. The MoD will choose between the Tatas, L&T, MDS and the public sector Ordnance Factory Board. Mahindra believes its strong automotive heritage and the foray into manufacturing protected vehicles, such as the MPVI, equips it to develop a quality product.

The ultimate challenge for private sector motor companies would be to develop tanks and ICVs. Good to hear that they are venturing into this field.

The Axe and the Rakshak —- two of the vehicles that MDS has developed for security forces —- are currently competing for a big Rs 350-crore army order for some 950 vehicles.

Still competing !

In the immediate future, the MPVI will compete for orders with similar vehicles developed by several other domestic manufacturers, including Ashok Leyland and the Tata Group. The MoD procured a significant part of its requirement of almost 400 MPVs from the public sector Ordnance Factory, Medak.

Why is the MoD under such compulsion to buy PSU products when better options are available?

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 18 Feb 2010 23:09

BEML to work on futuristic ultra light tanks
http://beta.thehindu.com/business/compa ... 109124.ece

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 19 Feb 2010 05:47

Three Indian Teams Unveil Mine Protected Vehicles, Anticipating a Growing Local Market for Armored Vehicles

The new Armored Stallion. Photo: Ashok Leyland.

The new Armored bus. Photo: Ashok Leyland

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 19 Feb 2010 06:55

Russia objects to T-72/T-90 simulators: Friend turns 'foe' in tank battle simulator deal
So much for the Russian Lobby usual barking over not being approached for the Sims!!!
This is what Zen and CAE/TATA have to say

CAE, however, denies infringing Russian IPR. CAE India President, H J Kamath, told Business Standard, “No proprietary or OEM software or equipment is needed for the simulator. No original equipment has been used, nor do we need any data or source codes from Russia. Everything has been simulated.”

Zen Technologies is equally emphatic. The company’s President, Kishore Dutt Atluri, says, “We don’t need any information from Russia. The physics of the T-72 and T-90 tanks are well known.”

Interestingly, CAE is also engaged in developing a full-crew simulator for the Arjun tank, which is made by the Defence R&D Organisation, for which the DRDO has given permission.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 19 Feb 2010 07:00

And some here keep parroting that we are putting all eggs in one basket! No such heartache when all eggs are thrown in the Russian basket