Indian Army: News & Discussion

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 26 Feb 2010 10:30

RayC wrote: They are doing a great job, and way way ahead of DRDO.

[/quote]

One data point - one outstanding Indian developed radar is the 3D-CAR/Rohini, researched and designed by LRDE (a DRDO org btw) and manufactured by BEL.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 26 Feb 2010 10:57

BEL is not only a manufacturing unit but also R&D.

They are doing a great job, and way way ahead of DRDO.

Its a bit OT here, but BEL is a lousy R&D outfit, it hasnt done any D, let alone R worth talking about in its life..It manufactures under tech transfer arracngements either from DRDO or from a a foreign partner...Thats true for its radars (Rohini/Revathi - DRDO), its missiles (Akash - DRDO), its electronics (Tech transfer from assorted French and Israeli companies)..In fact as Ajai Shukla mentioned in a recent article, BEL very often simply does no more than putting a "made in India" stamp on an imported product!

Kanson wrote:Fine...if that is the case...why not those tatas and Birlas refused to take up the offer when Rajiv Gandhi offered them the LCA project. You see, if they have taken that offer, very well DRDO could have avoided creating ADA lab, adding one more unit to its behemoth structure. The answer is well known. Well the answer is well known. Now Ajai Shukla is reporting TATA wants to sell the source code of EW system developed for Indian armed forces to foreign products to compensate for the cost incurred.

Any source for this? Neither Tatas nor Birlas have any expertise in aerospace, in fact the Birlas are not even into large scale engineering or projects...As per the same article, Tata SED is selling the course code to foreigners because MoD has given orders to BEL (which is importing it and on-selling it)!!!

BTW, Barring the aircraft carrier, what are the other "second had stuff" that Navy, or any other arm, is using??

anyways, this thread is about the IA, so some of this is OT..But the moot point was on the Barak issue...There, of course the domestic project wasnt completed, Barak is otherwse a good missile..But that does not mean that kickback werent involved!!!

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 26 Feb 2010 11:38

RayC wrote:If you notice the Light Weight Launcher 'developed' by the DRDO, it is the same 84mm Carl Gustav but the parts are of light weight material. Nothing new has been 'developed''. It is like the modern look Ambassador, old wine in a new bottle!

Carbon-epoxy is light weight high strength material used in many applications including high stake missiles.

developed a special pultrusion system optimized for making carbon/epoxy missile launch canisters

Each of these sections is made up of a two-layer composite construction. The inner layer is made up of carbon/epoxy filament mould constructed on a CNC winding machine and is designed to withstand structural loads.

The structures are made of wound carbon-epoxy fibre.

This is the development as you can see and in reducing the weight is a incremental developement associated with any product. Thats how the product needs time to become first class with gradual improvements as you see from TATA Indica with "lorry" engine to the current gusto models. In major military powers, it is Armed forces which spearheaded the MIC. Sadly in our case, only recently we can have such hope..just hope.

I have interacted with their scientists and I daresay they are not intelligent.

I'm not suprised, as you cant make out between the BEL and DRDO.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 26 Feb 2010 11:39

Any source for this?

RG asked for the help from pvt sector which was not forthcoming.

Barring the aircraft carrier, what are the other "second had stuff" that Navy

USS trenton

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 26 Feb 2010 12:54

Kanson wrote: Carbon-epoxy is light weight high strength material used in many applications including high stake missiles.

developed a special pultrusion system optimized for making carbon/epoxy missile launch canisters

Each of these sections is made up of a two-layer composite construction. The inner layer is made up of carbon/epoxy filament mould constructed on a CNC winding machine and is designed to withstand structural loads.

The structures are made of wound carbon-epoxy fibre.

This is the development as you can see and in reducing the weight is a incremental developement associated with any product. Thats how the product needs time to become first class with gradual improvements as you see from TATA Indica with "lorry" engine to the current gusto models. In major military powers, it is Armed forces which spearheaded the MIC. Sadly in our case, only recently we can have such hope..just hope.

Technology improve and better and lighter material are discovered/ invented.

Why will people not use it? It reduced the weight. A good thing. But did the DRDO add to the lethality? What is the weapon designed for?

Reducing weight does not mean 'developing'! It is merely 'upgrading' and so it is a lie to pretend something new has been done and going gaga over it! It may send some in ecstasy, but to the user it is a good thing to carry lighter equipment, but to them it would be greater is some 'zing' i.e. lethality could be added or a genuinely new and better replacement was developed!

China is producing the Daewoo Matiz as Cherry and they are calling it a Chinese design! Really?

I have interacted with their scientists and I daresay they are not intelligent.

I'm not suprised, as you cant make out between the BEL and DRDO.

Not understood.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 26 Feb 2010 13:04

NEW DELHI: The government today allocated Rs 1,47,344 crore towards defence in 2010-11 budget, a paltry 4 per cent increase from last year's Rs 1,41,703 crore.

why we have such politicians?

,we should make public what the armed forces asked for and what they got

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 26 Feb 2010 13:10

narayana wrote:why we have such politicians? ,we should make public what the armed forces asked for and what they got

Narayana-ji, let us first spend the amount that has been allocated. Year after year, the story is the same. The money from the defence budget is returned because it could not be spent.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 26 Feb 2010 13:28

Modernization Plans in the Indian Army to Drive the Indian Land Combat Systems Market.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 26 Feb 2010 15:23

Union Budget 2010: Govt raises defence allocation to Rs 147,344 cr

As in the past, the 1.2 million-strong Indian Army has been granted the lion's share, but at Rs.58,995 crore this Rs.439 crore lower than in revised allocation for 2009-10 and Rs.1,275 crore lower than the original allocation for the fiscal.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 26 Feb 2010 18:08

True.Money for the armed forces is never a problem. The problem is spending the alloted money in time .

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 26 Feb 2010 20:40

I strongly suspect that the money never fully spent is caused by the hands of babus and politicians. They know that if they raise objections and obstacles to the armed forces buying the stuff they need , they won't be able to spend and will be forced to turn over the money back to the MoF which then at that point, the greedy ******** can lay their hands on.

We have to remove the procurement policies and controls away from the babus and politicians back into the hands of the armed forces in a large degree. Right now, the control is so much in the hands of the babus and politicians that it isn't even funny anymore.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 28 Feb 2010 09:09

Death of a born fighter

Major Jyotin Laisharm Singh was in Afghanistan to train local doctors at the Indira Gandhi hospital. Eldest of four siblings, Jyotin is not the prop and beacon for his two younger brothers and two sisters alone, but a shining example for the village he grew up in, Nambol Awang Leikai, in rural Bishenpur District about 20 km from Imphal, Manipur.

His brilliance and perseverance took him further and he later acquired special training at the AIIMS, New Delhi. Seven years ago, he was recruited in the Army Medical Corp. Recently he was selected to work under the UN for assisting and providing medical aids to the war victims at Kabul, Afghanistan and left on February 13 from Delhi, army headquarters.

His body will be received by the GOC 57 Mountain Division, Maj.Gen. DS Hooda, followed by gun salute at the cremation ceremony of the victim.

xpost:

Major Jyotin Singh, unarmed, of the Army Medical Corps, working in the Indira Gandhi children's hospital, grappled with the suicide bomber forcing him to detonate himself outside the Arya guesthouse. This gave others nearby time to run for cover and save themselves. But the Major from Manipur fell.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 28 Feb 2010 22:24

FM has Performed Well: Antony on Defence Allocation

Defence Minister A K Antony today denied that the government had not made enough allocation for his ministry and insisted that the Finance Minister had assured he would provide whatever additional funds were required.

"Don't read too much (into less allocation for Defence). Last year there was a steep hike in the (Defence) budget due to the Pay Commission and arrears. This year the Finance Minister had to perform a very, very difficult exercise. I think he has, overall, performed his duty well," Antony told reporters here.

The Minister hinted that these funds were sufficient but if required the government would rise to the occasion.

"Regarding Defence (budget), the Finance Minister has promised on the floor of the House (Lok Sabha) that if we want he will provide enough money for us," Antony asserted.

Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee had said during his budget presentation on February 26 that if required the government would provide more funds to the Defence Ministry.

Seriously

Gee thanks for CONSIDERING national Security!!!! Would it hurt them to give more money into R&D that way it will get more INDIGENOUS products and also help the local Economy by creating more jobs???

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 28 Feb 2010 22:42

One of the interesting things I have learnt over the years is the toughness of Manipuris

Starting from IPKF -

RIP -

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Mar 2010 02:31

Surya wrote:One of the interesting things I have learnt over the years is the toughness of Manipuris

Starting from IPKF -

RIP -

i believe they fought off far superior mughal forces for years also...

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 01 Mar 2010 07:42

Hitesh wrote:I strongly suspect that the money never fully spent is caused by the hands of babus and politicians. They know that if they raise objections and obstacles to the armed forces buying the stuff they need , they won't be able to spend and will be forced to turn over the money back to the MoF which then at that point, the greedy ******** can lay their hands on.

We have to remove the procurement policies and controls away from the babus and politicians back into the hands of the armed forces in a large degree. Right now, the control is so much in the hands of the babus and politicians that it isn't even funny anymore.

Well, actually if the money is retrurned to the Consolidated Fund of India there is no scope for anyone to make "cuts"...In fact its when the money is spent that various stakeholders (netas included) can make cuts..

Really, the problem is of spending, rather than allocation...The 2010-11 capex budget is 60k crores, more than 25% over the revised estimates of 09-10 (and rest assured the actuals when they come out next year will be less than the RE)...60k croes is 13 billion dollars - lets see how much is spent!

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 01 Mar 2010 19:54

Hmmm, more skeletons in the cupboard

Or maybe DDM running after a rich guy adding masala, given the source.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Mar 2010 21:08

The outcome of the 2008 Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) (crucial to clear it for bulk production), where the German engine failed four times, is still fresh in the Army’s mind.

mm.. that sure is DRDO's fault.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Mar 2010 15:51

What was the CAG saying here, ok T-72 cannot be used in High altitude, but we should not prepare for war on the plains until Pakistan has invaded. What utter rubbish. we needed the whole miltary to be ready for war given the situation that was unfolding because of kargil.

what is the daily mail stake in this anyway. I find it hard to belive that a British newspaper had its heart in the right place for India.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 02 Mar 2010 18:46

FinMin looks to empower Antony on defence deals

I hope his hands won't shiver.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Mar 2010 00:03

some posts moved to http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=3&t=5443

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 03 Mar 2010 07:40

“We fully agree with the need for security”, explains a senior executive from one of the TCS contenders, “but secrecy can be fully preserved by reserving the ‘hopping algorithm’ for the DRDO and BEL. To safeguard the secrecy of a Rs 20,000 microchip, which contains the ‘hopping algorithm’, the MoD is handing them an entire Rs 10,000 crores project.”

Another unethical behaviour from MOD

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 03 Mar 2010 09:44

aditp wrote:Hmmm, more skeletons in the cupboard

Or maybe DDM running after a rich guy adding masala, given the source.

This is really stupid. Any number of people bought property dirt cheap in these areas (Gurgaon, Noida, even most of Delhi), even up to ten years ago, before the property boom. Now that their land is worth more, they are "astute investors". But if a soldier bought property before the boom, it is a "Skeleton in the Cupboard". This looks like nothing but jealousy that the writer of this unresearched piece holds, because he didnt have the money/sense to buy land when it was cheap, and now is taking out his bile wherever he can.

This is the same thing as that legion of weirdos on BR who bellow "How can army officers afford houses worth crores in New Delhis Defence Colony!!!???", while completely forgetting that the land was bought up to 50 years ago, and at the time was at the outskirts of Delhi!

Anyway whoever wrote this article cannot claim to be the "press". Its just some fellows blog. And he obviously has an axe to grind.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Mar 2010 10:22

The DLF Founder KP Singh is a Lt Col.

So, he is also a crook?

Guess what, Bhawani Singh has a whole lot of property and so what does make this poor Brigadier to be taken to be?

One of mu course-mates dabbled in stocks and shares right from his Captain days, he is rolling in money now. Would it be correct to slam him for his extraordinary amount of property and cash?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 03 Mar 2010 10:38

Dont know if this was posted before - Gen Avadesh Prakash with Karan Thapar..

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/im-not-taint ... ingle.html

From all that has come out in the case, while there might be "circumstantial evidence" of something amiss, it would be in everyone's interest to have this investigated and disposed off quickly..Else, there is too much insinuation and mud throwing..

Here is a retired MS virtually acusing the serving COAS of lying..And similarly against another fellow officer...

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 03 Mar 2010 10:45

RayC wrote:The DLF Founder KP Singh is a Lt Col.

So, he is also a crook?

Guess what, Bhawani Singh has a whole lot of property and so what does make this poor Brigadier to be taken to be?

Principally correct, but wrong examples..KP Singh married well, his father in law was a big landlord in UP/Haryana and the original DLF business was started by him with KPS..And Brig Bhawani Singh is the scion of the Jaipur royal family, no wonder he owns lots of properties!!!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Mar 2010 10:49

Here is a retired MS virtually acusing the serving COAS of lying..And similarly against another fellow officer...

He has not accused the COAS.

He has carefully indicated that it was the dhoti clad Defence Minister who forced the COAS.

I wish this dhoti clad man would be more diligent in getting the Armed Forces its requirements than wasting time on foolish cases, which the Army itself can well handle.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Mar 2010 10:51

somnath wrote:
Principally correct, but wrong examples..KP Singh married well, his father in law was a big landlord in UP/Haryana and the original DLF business was started by him with KPS..And Brig Bhawani Singh is the scion of the Jaipur royal family, no wonder he owns lots of properties!!!

Allow a media spinmeister and he will show how KP and Bhawani amassed their riches illegally!

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 03 Mar 2010 10:54

my dad did lot of CM' and COI during his tenure in the services... myslef and dad watched this interview and my dad was saying that the Lt Gen has a strong case and there seem to have been lot of screw ups ... looks like someone trying to fix the Lt gen ... dad was not aware of this case ( he retd in 1987) .. his observations based on what he saw in the interview with karan.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Mar 2010 10:56

somnath wrote:Dont know if this was posted before - Gen Avadesh Prakash with Karan Thapar..

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/im-not-taint ... ingle.html

From all that has come out in the case, while there might be "circumstantial evidence" of something amiss, it would be in everyone's interest to have this investigated and disposed off quickly..Else, there is too much insinuation and mud throwing..

Here is a retired MS virtually acusing the serving COAS of lying..And similarly against another fellow officer...

As far as thapar's program goes, a lot of snake oil, very much more than usual was being peddled on the avdesh singh program by host and guest.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 03 Mar 2010 10:58

RayC wrote:He has carefully indicated that it was the dhoti clad Defence Minister who forced the COAS.

The current COAS would leave a chequered (unfortunately more on the negative side) legacy - would be viewed by posterity in the same league as ACM SK Sareen and Adm Ramdas...The Gen Panag accusations, Sukhna and other whispers still to come out in the media - hopefully the next Chief will set the house in better order!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 03 Mar 2010 11:00

chetak wrote:As far as thapar's program goes, a lot of snake oil, very much more than usual was being peddled on the avdesh singh program by host and guest.

That bit is quite obvious from the line of questioning itself..The entire thing seemed a bit premeditated unlike KAran Thapar's usual interviews..He is quite well connected in the Army as well apparently, being the son of ex COAS PN Thapar (of '62 (in)fame)!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Mar 2010 11:04

somnath wrote:
RayC wrote:He has carefully indicated that it was the dhoti clad Defence Minister who forced the COAS.
The current COAS would leave a chequered (unfortunately more on the negative side) legacy - would be viewed by posterity in the same league as ACM SK Sareen and Adm Ramdas...The Gen Panag accusations, Sukhna and other whispers still to come out in the media - hopefully the next Chief will set the house in better order!

Maybe.

Panag was a Bde Cdr when I was the Deputy GOC and I know he is an upright man.

I don't hold a candle for the Chief in this case, even though he is my friend . He should have not buckled under political pressure. He is the Chief and his decision is final and not that of the dhoti man. If it was not OK by the dhoti boys, then he should have resigned and let any other pliable ninny kowtow to the dhoti clad odd fishes!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Mar 2010 11:10

somnath wrote:
chetak wrote:As far as thapar's program goes, a lot of snake oil, very much more than usual was being peddled on the avdesh singh program by host and guest.
That bit is quite obvious from the line of questioning itself..The entire thing seemed a bit premeditated unlike KAran Thapar's usual interviews..He is quite well connected in the Army as well apparently, being the son of ex COAS PN Thapar (of '62 (in)fame)!

He may be in need of Army facilities as per news reports.

Hence the elaborate song and dance routine.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 03 Mar 2010 11:30

chetak wrote: He may be in need of Army facilities as per news reports.

Hence the elaborate song and dance routine.

???What type of facilities??

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 04 Mar 2010 06:29

India prepares for a two-front war

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 04 Mar 2010 10:17

xpost as necessary:

India’s Defence Budget (2010-2011): Wake up call for Defence Managers ---- Arvind Kadyan
http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/IndiasD ... yan_030310
Budgeting for India’s Defence: An Analysis of Defence Budget 2010-11 and the Likely Impact of the 13th Finance Commission on Future Defence Spending ---- Laxman K Behera
http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/Budgeti ... era_030310

China announces 7.5 pc jump in defence spending
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/internati ... 139215.ece

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 04 Mar 2010 10:39

Meanwhile, it would appear that Army HQ has floated a letter in response to IB asking for personnel to fill Group B Non Gazetted posts (For example, Assistant Sub Inspector, Sub Inspector), for serving Majors to apply for deputation. On the civilian side, the letter generously says that Upper Division Clerks/Assistants of the MoD can apply to the same posts.

The Navy, more modest in all ways than the senior service (In India, the army is the senior service), in response to the same letter, has asked Chief Petty Officers to apply (they are equivalent to Nb Subedars, who are in turn equivalent to sub inspectors of police). This is still a higher rank than UDC, which is equivalent to Havildar!

Im beginning to wonder, how much of the rank and equivalence crash in the armed forces is because of bumblers in the MS branch affixing their signature to any old thing that a clerk hands them, without bothering to check it at all? Should such time passers be allowed to sit in such an important office? Shouldnt the fellow who signed this order be penalized most severely? I understand that there are work pressures, but something needs to be overhauled in this system.

The matter came to a head, when another directorate in the army issued a strong letter of protest at the idea of a Major applying for deputation for such posts.

For those who dont know, the V pay commission equated majors with Deputy Secretaries in pay, and the VIth equates them with Undersecretaries. Another crash in pay, brought about by army authorities foolishly posting Colonel rank officers as Deputy Secretaries in Ministerial posts. For those who further dont know, Majors are Gazetted and Commissioned Officer ranks, and the ranks advertised were non gazetted and commissioned ranks, equivalent to Havildars in the army, Upper Division Clerks, ASI, and Sub Inspector.

Bumbling is one thing, but when it becomes institutionalised, and widespread, then it is known as a Major Problem!

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 05 Mar 2010 16:10

http://news.rediff.com/column/2010/mar/ ... wagah1.htm

I tend it agree with the views, what do others think?

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 05 Mar 2010 16:24

yup,,could not agree more...