INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 26 Feb 2010 17:45

Is it possible for the reactor to be brought out without cutting up Arihant's hull ?

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 26 Feb 2010 17:46

ankit-s wrote:
Craig Alpert wrote: 80 MWe ~= 200 MWt!!! (I hope I'm correct!) so how many MW does it equal to?? and what's the Horsepower???

USS Seawolf: 52,000 hp (39 MW)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawolf_class_submarine

52000 shp or 39 MW is what is delivered to the screw and not the reactor capacity. That is not the reactor capacity as is generally not quoted in case of submarines from other navies. USN consistently only provides the shp numbers and not the reactor capacity.

By the way, the wiki article is inconsistent at places quoting 52,000 shp and others 45,000 shp. FAS says 52,000 shp, and yet one other report says it is 35,000 shp

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 26 Feb 2010 17:54

vila wrote:The reactor on Arihant is not critical, but I dont think it will be bought on land again and tested. It will be commissioned in sea that's how it is done for all US nuke subs. A review committee okays everything and gives go ahead to make the reactor critical.

Bring out a nuclear reactor after it has gone critical? Seriously?

By the way, USN conducts sea trials of SSN as Alpha and Beta Sea Trials. Propulsion plant operations are inherent component of the sea trials. Where do people come off thinking that the reactor is not "ON" during sea trials? Here's a quote from the commissioning of the SSN New Hampshire in 2008.

New Hampshire's alpha sea trials included submerging for the first time, performing a range of submarine and propulsion-plant operations and conducting high-speed runs on the surface and underwater to demonstrate that the ship's propulsion plant is fully mission-capable.

vila · Post by **vila** » 26 Feb 2010 18:03

Brando
Post subject: Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2010 01:38 am
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The article that claims "India's nuclear submarine doesn't have a working reactor" and is "no more than a floating hull" seems to quote Defense Professionals Daily and an unnamed Indian defense scientist! The article claims that the reactor would have to achieve criticality on land and then tested rigorously before it can be put to sea.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/unc ... 31849.html

I never said it will be brought on land, it was in response to the post by Brando ^^. Yes its true that the propulsion plant is also tested during sea trials but as far it is known from media reports the power pack of ATV is not yet critical. A land based prototype went critical a couple of years back at Kalpakkam.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 26 Feb 2010 18:16

jaladipc wrote:
‘INS Arihant’ with a 80 Mwe nuclear reactor at its core, was launched in the water in last July. The sea trial, which began a few months ago, will be carried out for more than a year in different conditions to test the endurance and performance of the nuclear submarine, which is capable of staying under water for months, sources told Deccan Herald
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/544 ... trial.html

If engine is not critical then how come it is on sea trials ... may be it is pushed by jingo

prasadha · Post by **prasadha** » 26 Feb 2010 20:57

Gurus

This link claims these are ATV schematics.
http://indodefense.blogspot.com/2010/02 ... group.html

Do you think they may be true?

Kindly delete post if these are fake.

Thanks

Prasad

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 26 Feb 2010 21:00

RKumar wrote: If engine is not critical then how come it is on sea trials ... may be it is pushed by jingo

instead of ranting,can you provide a valid source which says that reactor havent reached critical yet?

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 26 Feb 2010 22:11

^
I am saying the opposite what you understood.... it was dry humor .. as the few were saying that reactor is not even inside the ATV ...

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 26 Feb 2010 22:44

prasadha wrote:Gurus

This link claims these are ATV schematics.
http://indodefense.blogspot.com/2010/02 ... group.html

Do you think they may be true?

Kindly delete post if these are fake.

Thanks

Prasad

Don't know if these are original schematics or fake ones, but these are actually from Prasun Gupta's blog.

Here is the link to it.

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 26 Feb 2010 23:15

I am not sure of the authencity of those photos. At least one of the photos has foreign charaters letters in the background (cant tell for sure) and the ceiling of the facility seems to be of foreign construction.. I have not seen such nicely ordered ceilings in ISRO facilities even .
The photo is this one
ATV Mast photo seen at normal size

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 15 Mar 2010 10:57

India's emerging maritime clout

INS Arihant, the indigenously produced nuclear-powered SSBN submarine, left the Indian port of Vishakhapatnam for sea trials in the Indian Ocean on Feb. 25. Two more submarines of the same class are being produced and will be inducted for trials in 2011 and 2012 respectively

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Mar 2010 11:08

^^^ From the same article:

The induction of the Akula-II class of SSN submarines from Russia is apace and the first submarine will be in India in June, christened the INS Chakra. The hunter-killer submarine is one of the quietest in the world today. The Russian government is keen to continue its military relationship with India, with a visit from Putin to New Delhi scheduled this month.

Another reference to multiple Akulas...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Mar 2010 11:34

Its absurd to give credence to those fanciful reports about the ATV being launched without its reactor.Just imagine cutting it up again and installing the reactor! What was probably meant by the report was that the reactor was not switched on/went critical when it was launched and used its aux. power sources instead until sea trials began.The trial test reactor at K'pakkam has proven the reactor design in advance .From open sources,two more ATV hulls are ready for assembly.Whether these will be of same size or larger,to carry more missiles, is unknown.An SSGN design based upon the ATV is also planned apparently using the same silos.

PS:That more than one Akula-3 is on the cards has been evident from the start.That the lease of Akulas was linked to the Gorshkov deal is also a strong possibility,in that he deal for both was reportedly signed on the same day.In this case,one can understand the extra price demanded of the Gorshkov,which might actually be in part escalation or the agreed price for Akulas as part of the same package.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 15 Mar 2010 12:17

^^^
Excellent news, wrt both Akula and ATV! Now, if only Rakesh were here to distribute the (several tonnes of) sweets!

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 15 Mar 2010 12:49

I just saw Adm Arun Prakash's talk in Washington DC on India's maritime future.

He spoke of 3 indigenous SSBNs and 1 imported SSN in the near future.

No mention of a second Akula there at least, or of any more N subs other than the 3 currently building.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 15 Mar 2010 12:54

Venu, Prasada, Jayram,

Those pictures from prasun sengupta's blog have been cobbled together from various sources to make them look like these are the Arihant schematics. These are not.

These are NOT related to the arihant N sub program at all. For example the line diagram with the sail and masts jutting out, is of a U-209 submarine which is in service with a dozen nations including India.

There are no pictures of the Arihant program or of the sub itself except those released by GoI on the internet yet.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 15 Mar 2010 13:11

No mention of a second Akula there at least, or of any more N subs other than the 3 currently building.

Certainly, We cannot expect a person of his position to disclose what is not in public...Whatever he said is nothing that public at large is not aware of.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Mar 2010 15:52

Its going to be just one Akula-2 SSN but who knows they will just pull a rabbit out of the hat.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 05 May 2010 09:36

Paki view..
Indian nuclear submarines: a case of nuclear proliferation
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=237641

..There are reports that as the Russians failed to meet the delivery schedule they may offer one of their operational Akula Class submarines to the Indian Navy as compensation. United States also aided the nuclear development programme of Indian Navy by facilitating the latter with expertise to install India’s first low frequency transmitter in south of the country to communicate with long distance submerged submarines. France also greatly helped India develop its own sonars for installation onboard its submarines.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 May 2010 11:35

So why didn't the Pakistanis get all these from their friends and masters hain ji?

I know:
1. Either it was not free
2. The pakistanis did not have foresight or vision to procure these.
3. The ghoos money was not enough, or that ghoos was not properly negotiated.
4. The west was not willing to give that tech to the pakistanis - there goes the bosom buddy line.

Either way, why cry now? Are the Chinese holding back on giving you that leaking rust bucket, radiation spewing Xia class?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 15 May 2010 12:59

For doubting Thomases about the Reactor inside the sub..

The recently commissioned Nuclear Submarine" INS Arihant" has major critical components manufactured and supplied by Walchandnagar Industries Ltd. (WIL). The entire Nuclear Part of the Propulsion power plant was assembled, integrated, and installed on board the submarine by Walchandnagar.

http://www.indiaprwire.com/pressrelease ... 450723.htm

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 May 2010 13:08

The reactor has been integrated already, but, not started. I am just speculating here "there is an alternative propulsion too." Is there just one propulsion system and that too a untested one?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 May 2010 13:39

if the reactor is not critical how did it go for sea trials?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 15 May 2010 14:36

iirc, they just fit it in and take it out on aux power or tugged out to sea and then reactor is slowly taken to criticality. sea trials are done either before or after reactor is taken to criticality. don't rem though.

vila · Post by **vila** » 15 May 2010 16:08

Yes and since this is our first nuclear sub I think DRDO, Navy and BARC would like to very sure about all systems before criticality is planned for. After low power criticality is achieved then slowly they will increase to full power.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 May 2010 20:55

As I said, I am just speculating. Sea trials could be for rest of the systems. Switching on the reactor can be later. tsriram and vila are on same page as me.

Unproven reactor on an unproven hull/system would be last thing I expect them to do. Doesn't make sense. we have no indication that hull and systems have been trialed before.

Auxiliary or alternate propulsion is there.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 15 May 2010 22:24

Guys,
The reactor was fueled a long time back. It was installed and the reactor compartment welded onto the sub with the tail section.

You can't launch a submarine or a N sub without a major component in place. The submarine is a closed, watertight equipment. The concept of a float out is erroneous on a submarine. Wikipedia is wrong if it says that the sub has been floated out, or that the reactor is not installed. Without the reactor section welded in the submarine can't be in the water.

The sub does have diesel generators for auxillery power, I think it needs to be at the surface for this. There would also possibly be batteries for very limited undersea ops if the N-reactor is shut down.

All N-subs the world have these three features, arihant can be expected to be no different.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 May 2010 23:01

True the reactor would have been there fueled and welded long time back , the question to be asked is has it gone critical and have started generating electricity to power the sub plus all the safety and systems checks done with reactor powering all the subs on board system they would be extra cautious since this is the first attempt , without the reactor in there and generating electricity they wont be starting with ATV trials.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 May 2010 07:25

There is no independent corroboration of the rumor that the reactor is still not critical. It was reported not to have been started at launch. The rumor that there was no reactor is balderdash. The Arihant has been kept closely under wraps and what is being released to the media is only what they want people to know. Everything else is just rumor.

Even the appearance of photos in a blog is bullshit designed to pull eyeballs to the blog.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 May 2010 08:18

The reactor section is welded in as part of the sub. But the fueling rods are installed later.

Installing the fueling rods and the moderator fuel etc is what makes the reactor 'critical'

There was a news item a few months after the launch which stated that specialists from Kalpakkam were in vizag to 'service' the sub. Vizag has a unit that can handle nuclear fuels since the time the Chakra was in IN service.

I would assume that the sub is in trials now with the reactor gone critical a long time back.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 May 2010 09:30

I am amazed at INs stupidity, of relying on the Russians, the US and France when we could stolen the very same technology from the Chinese and Pakistanis for free!

bodhi · Post by **bodhi** » 17 May 2010 10:43

Imagine, us stealing their stuff, then them hacking into our databases and finding out that they are stealing their own designs....who blames who then???

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 17 May 2010 11:02

bodhi wrote:Imagine, us stealing their stuff, then them hacking into our databases and finding out that they are stealing their own designs....who blames who then???

You might not want to break into Chinese systems to steal their stupid design. Its useless. The only purpose it can serve is the understanding of it wrt to opposition strength.

Contrary to the perception, Chinese do not have a good working design. Their design might be ahead of their previous generation bucket. But its definitely not cutting edge.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 May 2010 11:04

the reactor is most likely critical. the power hungry eqpt onboard can hardly be run on diesel genset and I dont think any diving would be possible below snorkel depth.
there's hardly any point towing the sub out on a 12hp genset and testing stuff, such test would have little value.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 17 May 2010 12:07

^^^ Very astute observation.
Indeed if the sub is undergoing trials, that can't be possible without full power being delivered to all subsystems.

There was news of the IN testing a submarine off chennai's coast, about 4-5 months back IIRC.

chackojoseph,
On china's level of tech development, I think they are almost as capable as us. It is just that their development model, just like the soviets comprises pushing the developed weapon system into trials quickly and then thinking of improving it.
Their Kilo submarine copy, the Type 041 Yuan class, is an improvement of the Type 039 Song class. The song class was their first 'self designed

' sub. They built 10 of these, incrementally improving them, before building the follow on Yuan class.

Now this yuan class has a mixture of ouiropean, russian and chinese equipment. For example the Sonar is supposedly the french Thales TSM 2255 / DUUX-5, a few units that they purchased in the 90s before the ouiropean sanctions. There was a news report of using german diesel engines. They have also made several advances in quietening tech.

There is also talk of pumpjets and a 'locally developed

' AIP planned to be installed.

In addition they have integrated 'locally developed

' torpedos and missiles with the sub.

They plan to export upto 4 yuan class to the purelanders to our west.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 17 May 2010 13:10

Gagan wrote:^^^ Very astute observation.
full power being delivered to all subsystems.

MATRIX

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 May 2010 13:34

Well as far as N sub development or even conventional ones goes the Chinese was always ahead in this game , India has so for not designed or developed a single conventional sub , infact we have even issues lic manuf it.

The reason we would go ahead of China ( its too early days to say any thing ) is because we piggy backed on the Russians and the generous help they provided which made us zero to hero overnight via ATV.

The Chinese are facing the same issue as US or Soviet faced during their phase sub development , its a very painstaking effort to build a sub industry ( design bureau , industry , yards ) and produce good quality subs , unless Chinese learn it on their own , steal it or some one helps them it will take a long time for them to build a good 3rd gen Nuclear submarine let alone a 4th gen types.

Their latest SSBN Jin class is rated by ONI in noise level to be more noisier then a 70's Soviet Delta 3 , although I expect Jin to have more capable missile and sonar compared to old Delta 3.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 17 May 2010 14:50

Aroor's blog says that the reactor is critical

In 1998, L&T began fabricating the hull of ATV but the struggle with the reactor continued. After BARC designs failed, India bought reactor designs from Russia. By 2004 the reactor had been built, tested on land at the IGCAR and had gone critical. Its modest size, around 6,000 tonne (the Ohio class SSBN in the movie Crimson Tide weighs over 14,000 tonne), has led experts to call it a “baby boomer”.

Same thing is mentioned in global security site too.....I tried to dig out an article {Hindu or ToI} which also mentioned that IGCAR's miniaturized reactor has gone critical.I remember reading this article before 2006...but could not find....

This DDM can really divert maha maha thinkers...

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 17 May 2010 14:56

Arun at India Forum has posted, reactor doing very well... power generation is more than expected...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jun 2010 20:05

First Pics of Arihant via LiveFist Arihant, India's Nuclear Ballistic Missile Sub In All Her Glory!