Indian Naval Discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Feb 2010 16:10

No Ramanna,it is another one which I've located.I hope to post it shortly.It is for an SSGN of about 5-6000t with a similar VLS arrangement as on the ATV.The cut-away drg. shows that the double-hull does not extend to the forward part of the sub housing the torpedo room section.This might not be the actual case.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 23 Feb 2010 20:12

Craig Alpert wrote:
Many people wrongly believe that this was a government-to-government deal through the Foreign Military Sales route (FMS) but Mr Buck confirmed that the deal was signed after a global tender which requires an offset commitment.

He seems to be suggesting that offset commitments don't apply for FMS deals!! Is that true?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 23 Feb 2010 21:59

John wrote:
Kersi D wrote:I always thought P 17 had a 100 mm Oto Melra gun. Our pundits please check. I am too lazy.
P-17 has Oto SR 76 mm gun and oto melara does not sell 100 mm gun unless you meant the 127mm.

Austin wrote:Did any one managed to ID the SSR/Air Search Radar on the P-17 during Defexpo ?
Have not seen it you have the image?

Oops. I meant that P 15 (INS Kolkata onwards) is to have a 100 mm Oto Melra or is it the same Russian A 190, 100 mm gun.

I also think that P 17 (will) have a Oto Melra 76 mm gun in stealth turret.

Comments please.

K

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 24 Feb 2010 02:16

a_kumar wrote: He seems to be suggesting that offset commitments don't apply for FMS deals!! Is that true?

Affirmative! FMS route means that the vendors would essentially be selling it to the Home country, who would in turn sell it to the Forigen Coutny, but would not have to deal with all the hustle that comes with when competeting globally. The benefit of FMS is (for the foreign govt.) no LAWS to sign, service (maintenance) is guranteed and greater govt interations. The DOWNSIDE (for the foreign govt.) is NO OFFSETS, NO GLOBAL COMPETETION (hence will pay a higher price.)

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 24 Feb 2010 07:27

First nuke-sub undergoes trial
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/544 ... trial.html

One of India’s top secret defence projects for over three decades, ‘INS Arihant’ with a 80 Mwe nuclear reactor at its core, was launched in the water in last July. The sea trial, which began a few months ago, will be carried out for more than a year in different conditions to test the endurance and performance of the nuclear submarine, which is capable of staying under water for months, sources told Deccan Herald.

Once inducted, ‘INS Arihant’ will be the third leg of the nuclear triad enabling India to have retaliatory second strike capability from the sea. At the defence research and development organisation’s annual awards function attended by Defence Minister A K Antony, DRDO chief V K Saraswat mentioned ‘INS Arihant’ as a significant technology achievement.
For obvious reasons Saraswat did not mention anything about the two other nuclear submarines, which DRDO is constructing at the moment.
The hull of the second boomer is under construction at an L&T facility in Gujarat. The Visakhapatnam shipyard was recently brought under the defence ministry to secretly carry out the construction activities.

Saraswat listed out developing Agni-5 with a range of 5,000 km, unmanned combat aerial vehicle, indigenous airborne early warning and control system and automatic under-ground and under-water vehicles as some of the key future challenges. Antony asked the DRDO to reduce long gestation period and cut down on time and cost overrun. “It is high time that DRDO shed its reticence in working in tandem with the private industry. We need the maximum possible synergy between various production agencies,” he added.

It means 80 Mwe nuclear reactor is already installed in contradiction to the perceived view in media that it was a submarine without a heart …
What is automatic under-ground vehicles ??

Boudhayan · Post by **Boudhayan** » 24 Feb 2010 08:56

Cross posting from the INS Arihant thread:

From the above article, any idea whether the rest of the two boomers being constructed by DRDO are of SSBNs type or are they of the SSN/SSGNs types ? My guess would be that they are of the SSN/SSGNs types which would be present in the carrier strike groups that India is planning to have headed by the INS Vick and INS Vikrant (IAC). If yes, then what would Akula do ?

Any light on the above ?

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 24 Feb 2010 09:01

SanjibGhosh wrote: What is automatic under-ground vehicles ??

Rats and Earthworms

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 24 Feb 2010 12:40

Antony asked the DRDO to reduce long gestation period and cut down on time and cost overrun. “It is high time that DRDO shed its reticence in working in tandem with the private industry. We need the maximum possible synergy between various production agencies,” he added.

Typical political gas.

This man is most ineffective and lethargic and damn scared to take cogent action where he knows he can be had!

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 24 Feb 2010 13:42

SanjibGhosh wrote: What is automatic under-ground vehicles ??

May be DDM,he may be referring to this,one of the pics that i took at EME exhibition,sorry for the poor quality

Unmanned Ground Vehicle

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Feb 2010 17:01

New future "practice range" for the IN!
....and no more prawns for Pakis.

Islamabad, Feb.23 (ANI): Pakistan has decided to build a second naval base in the region of Gwadar, known as Kalmat Chundi Hore.

According to a report in the Pakistan Tribune, 30,000 acres of land has been set aside for the proposed naval base.

The newspaper says further that it expects a large number of residents to be shifted to other locations because of the government's decision.

It is also feared that thousands of fishermen will lose their jobs, as the Pakistan Navy will occupy their work areas.

The region of Pasni (Kalat Chundi Hore) is not only a place for high quality prawns and other different types of fish, it is also a breeding place for many marine species.

Every year, millions of rupees worth of prawns and fish are exported from Kalmat Chundi Hore to Karachi and the international market.

Sources say that if the government of Pakistan decides to go ahead with plans to build the new naval base, it will cost thousands of fishermen their jobs.

Residents of the area have appealed to President Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, the governor and chief minister of Balochistan to cancel plans to build the naval base.

An appeal has also gone out international environment campaigners to intervene and stop this project.

Currently, Balochistan has seven mega military garrisons, 52 paramilitary cantonments and four naval bases, including Jinnah naval base, in Ormara.

Also, there are missile-testing ranges and two nuclear development and testing sites in the province.

The militarisation of Balochistan, however, continues unabated. (ANI)

http://news.oneindia.in/2010/02/23/pakb ... istan.html

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 24 Feb 2010 20:42

Eureka - I found what I was looking 4....

Here is a photo of French nuclear missile submarine Le Terrible - M51 - being assembled (one of the module) and look at polished and grinded weld joints VERY CLEARLY........

It can be zoomed onto.

http://tinyurl.com/ygo4twb

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 26 Feb 2010 01:49

Joint War Game in Bay of Bengal by Navy, CG, IAF

The Navy, Coast Guard and the IAF today kick-started a major joint war game in the Bay of Bengal off Vishakapatnam to test their synergy levels in a sea battle scenario.

Ahead of the exercise, Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma and Defence Secretary Pradeep Kumar boarded India's sole aircraft carrier INS Viraat, deployed in the eastern front after several years, to watch the three armed forces going about their war drills code-named Tropex-2010 in the sea.

"The exercise involves the participation of most major combatants of the Indian Navy, as also participation of the Indian Air Force and the Coast Guard," a Navy press release said here.

"Just as the combination of the two fleets and the elements of the sister services contribute to synergy, the presence of the Defence Secretary with the Navy Chief is indicative of the close coordination and synergy of the Navy and Defence Ministry, which is the key to enhancing effectiveness at the 'business end' of the Navy," it added.

The sword arms of the Navy, the Western and Eastern fleets, were presently carrying out a joint work up, after which they would proceed for a mock battle to test their tactical skills and operational readiness.

Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs), Airborne Early Warning (AEW) helicopters and advanced missile systems of the Navy and air-to-air re-fueller, Jaguars and Sukhoi-30 of the IAF were being deployed for the exercise. Missile, torpedo and gun firings would also be conducted.

Several operational concepts, which have earlier been war-gamed as part of a series of table-top exercises played on paper in the various Maritime Warfare Centres (MWCs) of the Navy were now being practically exercised at sea, the release said.

"Lessons learnt during the exercise will be used to further develop the Navy’s tactical and operational doctrines. Conduct of joint operations is one of the focused aims of the exercise," it added.

Observers from Army and Air Force too embarked various participating ships to gain first-hand experience of naval combat operations.

Overall, the exercise was intended to thoroughly test the human and material endurance of the Navy, the efficacy of its operational and logistics plans and its combat effectiveness, the release said.

John · Post by **John** » 26 Feb 2010 04:08

Kersi D wrote:
Oops. I meant that P 15 (INS Kolkata onwards) is to have a 100 mm Oto Melra or is it the same Russian A 190, 100 mm gun.

I also think that P 17 (will) have a Oto Melra 76 mm gun in stealth turret.

Comments please.

K

There is no oto 100 mm gun i can't say what the turrent is based on the model, does not resemble A-190 and looks like AK-176 (76 mm gun). It could be just modeled wrong plus it is missing the gunnery FCR.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 26 Feb 2010 07:52

The Mig-29K Induction galleries are up.
We need to caption and resort them but heck,take a look anyways...
Will try to sort things soon.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... kPanthers/

Kapil

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 26 Feb 2010 09:34

India, China pilots may train at Ukraine base

In a strange twist of fate, a former province of the then USSR — Ukraine — is emerging as the likely meeting point for naval aviators from India and China as the two countries try to rapidly acquire the capabilities to build and operate aircraft carriers of the future.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 26 Feb 2010 09:48

Kapil wrote:The Mig-29K Induction galleries are up.
We need to caption and resort them but heck,take a look anyways...
Will try to sort things soon.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... kPanthers/

Kapil

Super pics! Anybody notice - not a single image had any smoky engines, not that my word matters since the IN seems to be quite pleased with it. "Superior to the Rambha in some respects" they say. OLS anyone? Anyway, I don't believe the the 29K has any LDP integrated. The avionics slide in the images did not mention LDPs, my assumption is that the IN will in due time integrate the Litening - MiG is on record saying that carriage of such pods is not a biggie.

Another thing that caught my attention is that the IN showed the internal fuel weight as 4800kg, a figure that is more akin to the 9.31 model and not the current 9.41 (5200kg iirc). Very nice acquisition for the IN (plenty of punch to this baby as per Shalav's spreadsheet!).

The one complaint I do have is the color scheme, I prefer the darker one as on the Shar.

CM

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Feb 2010 12:25

Cain Marko wrote:...<SNIP>....The one complaint I do have is the color scheme, I prefer the darker one as on the Shar.
CM

Expect the jingo/fan boy to show up even in case of senior jingoes........

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Feb 2010 12:29

CM, all newly painted SHARs have moved on to the lighter grey scheme similar to the IAF where it is called sareen grey or tipnis grey. check the LUSH images.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 26 Feb 2010 15:24

Union Budget 2010: Govt raises defence allocation to Rs 147,344 cr

The Indian Navy has been allocated Rs.9,455 crore, just Rs.16 crore higher than its revised figure of Rs.9,439 crore for the previous fiscal but Rs.1,011 crore more than its original allocation of Rs.8,404 crore.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Feb 2010 16:19

WHat is the In's operation VS capital budget, considering the amount of capital items the Navy has to spend for, ships, subs and ATV, Mig 29-K, P8I Gorskov, Bramhos, Klub etc etc, its operational Budget must be really Tiny.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 26 Feb 2010 18:32

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 26 Feb 2010 23:54

Sailor killed, two others injured in submarine fire

Last Updated: 2010-02-26 23:37:21
Hyderabad: A sailor was killed and two others sustained injuries after fire broke out in a naval submarine at Naval Dockyard in Visakhapatnam city of Andhra Pradesh Friday evening, police said.
However, no case has been registered in this regard, they said adding a report was awaited from the Navy officials.
When contacted, a police official attached to the Malkapuram Police in Visakhapatnam city, confirmed the mishap and said a 24-year-old sailor died and two others suffered burn injuries, after fire broke out in Sindhurakshak submarine in the shipbuilding centre of the naval dockyard

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 26 Feb 2010 23:55

India TV reported that there was a blast onboard INS Sindhurakshak (at Vishakhapatnam), I googled but could not find any reports on it.

Edit: I see that narmad has posted a news report link.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Feb 2010 01:06

Rahul M wrote:CM, all newly painted SHARs have moved on to the lighter grey scheme similar to the IAF where it is called sareen grey or tipnis grey. check the LUSH images.

Rahul, the IN's SHars were not influenced by ACM Tipnis' orders to move almost all aircraft (except Mirages) to the IAF's low-viz gray scheme..the IN had a different ghost-gray camo scheme that used a different shade of gray (I noticed that a long time ago because I have been itching to model the SHar for a long time) as compared to the IAF's Tipnis gray. The newest LUSH SHar has an even newer scheme with a very light gray shade and even the radome is now in the same colour, indicating that the earlier ones were replaced along with the new Elta E-2032 radar.

That brings me to another small point- I initially used to think that the colour on the radome indicates the material from which it was made- kevlar radomes being the norm, but later on found out that it was due to the colour of the polyurethane or fluorocarbon coatings applied to the radome to prevent erosion due to rain and wind while maintaining transmission and anti-static properties. There is a Mirage-2000 picture in the BRF galleries that shows a radome that is weather beaten and has seen coatings eroded quite severely. the recent Vayu Shakti 2010 also had SB023 showing a similar sign of wear. Generally the estimated time-frame between application of these coatings to the time they need to be re-applied is 3 years or so. SB023 quite evidently requires a re-application of that coating.

The Mirage-2000H/TH will without a doubt get the Mirage-2000-5's radome that has no pitot tube at the front as its moved to a different location, but the radome colour will also change from black to gray, which is better from a low-viz point of view. The reason for the move from black to gray is due to the the fact that there have been newly developed techniques that allow for conductive fibers to be used in the top-coat of the fluorocarbon coatings for anti-static protection without having to use carbon-black, which was cutting edge previously. The problem with carbon black was that it was black in colour and the result was black radomes as seen on our Mirage-2000H/TH and on a couple of MiG-29s as well (Mission Udaan and Jamnagar base visit pics on BRF) with black radomes that are clearly very different from the dark gray seen on standard MiG-29s.

Its apparent that NAL acquired the newest technology in coatings because when NAL earlier built radomes, they built them with carbon black, as the Mirage radomes they built as well as the Jag IM radomes they built were black. I'm saying that because the Tejas PVs have all had gray radomes which is indicative that they're using fluorocarbon coatings, whose fibers can be specially customised to suit whatever colour that is wanted.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 27 Feb 2010 03:14

Kartik, do you know why they left the mirages as they were? I have always wondered about it. Also, the IAF's Mig-29s still have their old grey paint scheme which is quite different from the New grey of the Sukhois and Jags and LCA. Their paint scheme is actually closer to the new Ghost grey of the IN.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Feb 2010 05:54

nachiket wrote: Kartik, do you know why they left the mirages as they were? I have always wondered about it. Also, the IAF's Mig-29s still have their old grey paint scheme which is quite different from the New grey of the Sukhois and Jags and LCA. Their paint scheme is actually closer to the new Ghost grey of the IN.

I guess they didn't want to spend extra on new radomes for the Mirages or that the spare radomes were built earlier when NAL was still using carbon black.

But the MiG-29s don't use their earlier scheme anymore. They previously had a two-tone gray scheme, which is now changed to all-over low-viz gray. Any of the recent pics of the MiG-29s will show that to you.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 27 Feb 2010 07:03

Kartik wrote:
nachiket wrote: Kartik, do you know why they left the mirages as they were? I have always wondered about it. Also, the IAF's Mig-29s still have their old grey paint scheme which is quite different from the New grey of the Sukhois and Jags and LCA. Their paint scheme is actually closer to the new Ghost grey of the IN.
I guess they didn't want to spend extra on new radomes for the Mirages or that the spare radomes were built earlier when NAL was still using carbon black.

But the MiG-29s don't use their earlier scheme anymore. They previously had a two-tone gray scheme, which is now changed to all-over low-viz gray. Any of the recent pics of the MiG-29s will show that to you.

I wasn't talking about the radome. I was talking about the rest of the aircraft. All the mirages are still blue. They could have painted them low-viz grey and left the radomes as they are.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Feb 2010 07:28

nachiket wrote:I wasn't talking about the radome. I was talking about the rest of the aircraft. All the mirages are still blue. They could have painted them low-viz grey and left the radomes as they are.

OK i thought you were referring to the radome..no I don't know why the Mirages were left with the same camo scheme..

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 27 Feb 2010 11:16

rohitvats wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:...<SNIP>....The one complaint I do have is the color scheme, I prefer the darker one as on the Shar.
CM
Expect the jingo/fan boy to show up even in case of senior jingoes........

What to do, a lifetime of habit you know. I am like the quintessential old pervert - shallow and superfluous things still tend to attract the eye every now and then, esp. when dealing with curvy things.

CM.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Feb 2010 11:33

Rahul, the IN's SHars were not influenced by ACM Tipnis' orders to move almost all aircraft (except Mirages) to the IAF's low-viz gray scheme..the IN had a different ghost-gray camo scheme that used a different shade of gray (I noticed that a long time ago because I have been itching to model the SHar for a long time) as compared to the IAF's Tipnis gray.

kartik, I know the colours are not same, IN's colours are more suited for the marine environment. that's why I wrote similar.

since it happened at around the same time I assumed that this was an across the services decision.

arun · Post by **arun** » 27 Feb 2010 11:53

Fire mishap on INS Sindhurakshak due to explosion in battery: Navy

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 27 Feb 2010 12:11

the battery room is full of hydrogen sometimes because of charging a serious fire zone - any electrical spark as during disconnecting the lead etc can set of a devastating explosion -looks like a human error

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Feb 2010 16:03

Kartik wrote: I guess they didn't want to spend extra on new radomes for the Mirages or that the spare radomes were built earlier when NAL was still using carbon black.

You can sometimes paint the radome with radar transparent paint of suitable color and that will not affect the characteristics.

The characteristics of the painted radome can be tested / verified in a lab before you put it on the aircraft.

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 27 Feb 2010 16:37

News report:
Fire mishap on INS Sindhurakshak due to explosion in battery

New Delhi, Feb 27 (PTI) The fire mishap on INS Sindhurakshak in Visakhapatnam that left a sailor dead and two others injured was caused by an explosion in its battery compartment, Navy officials said here today.

Sindhurakshak, a Russian-origin Kilo class submarine, was in the Visakhapatnam harbour for a routine maintenance when the mishap occurred last evening.

"It was due to a defective battery and Leading Electrical Technician Kump Dand was killed," the official said.

India had bought the 2300-tonne submarine from Russia as part of an early 1980s deal and commissioned it in 1997. It is the ninth of the 10 Sindhugosh class diesel-electric powered vessel that the Navy has in its 16-vessel submarine fleet.

Sindhurakshak is scheduled for a major mid-life refit later this year as part of a programme for this class of vessels which began in 1997 with Sindhuvir.

In January 2008, another vessel from this class, INS Sindhugosh, collided with a merchant vessel off Mumbai while participating in a naval exercise.

The boat collided with the cargo ship as it was surfacing in a silent mode with its radio and radar switched off.

The damage caused to the submarine during the mishap resulted in it being off service for about a month.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Feb 2010 18:04

submarines seem to have odd habit of being unable to detect merchant ships on passive sensors and colliding. a couple of USN subs also ran into same problem last few yrs.

and one of the talwar class had a minor collision with a merchant ship.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 28 Feb 2010 01:23

if we use the 3.2m dia solid booster for 1st and 2nd stages (ala Trident) how much can the length be reduced while keeping the same range as Agni-5?

can these be fit on lengthened diesel-electric subs in a single file? These VLS tubes can also be used for Shaurya and Brahmos

better yet if the subs shift to nuke propulsion (like Brazil) for endurance to cover even the Chinese coast and not just the Pak coast currently

is there a way to feed these sub reactors from a nuclear fuel cycle initiated/seeded with locally mined Thorium?

Roel · Post by **Roel** » 28 Feb 2010 01:52

The Brazilian project is just a piece of hot air, lots of political stuff, but that project has been rumored for nearly 20 years and nothing is there yet...

Subs colliding with merchies is probably caused by something else than the unability to really detect them. You can hear merchies from VERY far as they make lots of noise. Subs have however the habit of going too close to mix their own sound with that of the merchant ship. Certainly near choke points like Gibraltar and Hormuz, where the area is limited and hence detection of the sub easier. Also water depth is less there, so they go closer to the merchant ships, probably have a very wrong interpretation of the suction effect that is created when you do that. Water accellerates between the two hulls, and that creates a low pressure (Bernoulli effect) that causes the sub to get sucked into the merchant as the merchant has often a much bigger mass and size than the sub. USS Greenville hence collided with a container ship in Gibraltar, another US sub ran into a Japanese VLCC in Hormuz and so on.
A sub also has trouble looking directly up, if there is a stopped or slow moving fishing vessel on top of them and they do an emergency blow, like, again, with USS Greenville and the Japanese fishing boat, accidents happen.
All too often Navy ships think they have priority, while nothing in the regulations says that. Like any other vessel they have to follow the rules. Same counts for the merchant ships, misunderstandings are easy at sea.

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 28 Feb 2010 08:10

vasu_ray wrote: is there a way to feed these sub reactors from a nuclear fuel cycle initiated/seeded with locally mined Thorium?

Almost 90% of Thorium deposits in India are found in the southern coasts, especially in Kerala. For decades, the idea of extraction of Thorium from the soil to be used for Nuclear Power Plants by converting them in to Uranium have been speculated. Work in this field has been going on, but it is not clear wether our scientist had succeeded.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 Feb 2010 19:19

India gets indigenous Offshore Patrol Vehicle.

"The 93.89 metres vessel is well equipped with state-of-art Navigation and Communication equipment automated by an Integrated Bridge System (IBS), thus making the ship a versatile platform," GSL claimed.

Propelled by two engines, the new OPV is capable of operating Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH).

"The vessel with an extended range of 4500 NM at a cruising speed of 12-14 knots is also capable of pollution control against oil spillage and external fire fighting," he said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 628615.cms

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 01 Mar 2010 10:14

Burma-India boost relations with naval parley

Reportedly, the Indian naval chief is likely to ask his Burmese counterpart to bring down Chinese presence in Burma, and for that India may offer assistance to upgrade the Burmese Navy, he added. It is being speculated that the main agenda of discussion between the visiting Burmese navy chief and Indian officials could be China's naval expansion that influences the coastal regions of Burma and India. India and Burma have steadily increased and strengthened bilateral relationship since the early 1990s. India is currently the fourth largest investor in Burma, following Singapore, China, and Thailand.

http://mizzima.com/news/regional/3581-b ... arley.html