PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 02 Mar 2010 17:59

There will be new Russian air force planes

Today in the design bureau Sukhoi showed how experienced fifth-generation fighter T-50, which should be entered service after five years.

Today, Vladimir Putin visited the OKB Sukhoi, where he demonstrated a virtual test of the latest fifth-generation fighter T-450. A virtual test can simulate the situation encountered in flight, directly to the shop.

Vladimir Putin, Chairman of RF Government: "As part of the state program of armaments for the next 10 years in the army should be placed over one thousand five hundred new planes and helicopters and about 200 anti-aircraft missile systems."

Also, Vladimir Putin said today that he intends to discuss with the aircraft builders a new engine for the aircraft T-50, and this is one of the most important components of the new generation aircraft.

Original

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 02 Mar 2010 20:12

Russia's 5th generation fighters to undergo 2,000 test flights.

Although the airframe of the fighter would be of the Russian design it would be further developed with the contribution of Indian experts and engineers, who would provide composite materials for the hull and 'artificial intellect' for the FGFA.

According to sources Russia would begin the induction of single seater fighter beginning from 2015, while the twin seater jet designed exclusively for the IAF is expected to be inducted from 2017 onwards.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 03 Mar 2010 00:02

Engine update :: Integrator of the engine 2 nd stage for the fighter 5 th generation will be "Joint engine manufacturing corporation"

MOSCOW, March 2. (ITAR-TASS). Integrator of the engine 2 nd stage for the fighter 5-th generation (PAK FA) will be "Joint engine manufacturing corporation," said the head of the corporation "Sukhoi" Mikhail Pogosyan.

According to him, most likely, an integrator of the engine 2 nd stage for a promising set of front-line aircraft engine manufacturing will be a Joint Corporation, which merged with the Salyut. "Already defined the contours of the engine 2 nd stage, but we must realize that its cycle of creation 10-12 years, "- said Pogosyan. He ruled out the possibility of engine 2-th stage in the coming years." Similarly, do not appear by 2015 ", - stressed the head of the corporation.

Pogosyan said that for the PAK FA "Try not critical to the start of the tests with the engine 1-th stage. "The plane took off with a new engine, which was designed specifically for this aircraft," - he said, stressing that "this modern design, which allows to operate the aircraft for a long time. According to him, the exploitation of PAK-FA "in the Armed Forces of our country with the engine 1-th stage.

As for the next engine, said Pogosyan, "the time of its implementation should be clarified." "We need to clarify the scope of work and sources of funding - he stated. - The challenge this is. Determine during 2010 - maximum 2011.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Mar 2010 02:01

Now that Sokhoi has produced a nice platform based on its own funds, Pogosyan is now playing a great game to bring the most important issue to the table: reliable other funding sources here on out.

Those agreementS India signs better go through a wringer this time around.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 03 Mar 2010 05:30

For those who are affluent with Russian:
videos from PM Putin vizit to Sukhoi DB on March 1, 2010
And for those Who'd like to see Natasha's reporting on Pak-Fa Tech toys

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 03 Mar 2010 05:44

the barrel of the cannon is directly within LOS with the center of the compressor face.

Refueling probe is quite clear as well. One can assume PAK-FA will have a pretty significant radius. Also note the IRST location is quite different than the one flown and show in pics. Design changes are ongoing, so only time will tell how the final product looks like!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Mar 2010 07:08

CA,

That is the T-50-0 - the static-test one. Not the one that flew. So, we can expect plenty of changes between this and the one that flew (T-50-1). I would wait for another year or two to see where all this headed.

What I would suggest to Sukhoi is to embed two 50 cals on either side, that pop out (just like the refueling probe). That would be real neat stuff.

On Natasha. What can I say. Just like a PAK-FA prepping to take-off she also keep so quite, revving, then at the very right time .............. opens throttles and takes of. Of course that language she speaks lends itself very well to such antics. Nice.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 03 Mar 2010 07:16

O yes definitely. I should have been a lil more clear in my post. The pics posted are for Static T-50-0. Apologies if it was confusing.
the .50 cals on dual sides, well if the Russian's ain't goona do it, Sure hope the SDRE's over at Hal plan on inducting those just like you mentioned for the FGFA.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 03 Mar 2010 07:50

I don't know here to put it...but here is a good article on Engine. It is translated one.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 03 Mar 2010 07:54

PAK FA major trials to begin in April

MOSCOW (BNS): The major flight trials of Russia's fifth generation fighter aircraft will begin in April, 2010, at Gromov R&D Institute, in Zhukovsky.

According to a report by RIA Novosti, the statement was conveyed on Monday by the sources from Sukhoi Company.

In Feb, 2010 the fifth generation fighter aircraft made its first test flight in Komsomolsk-na-Amure.

"Before it passes to the serial production stage, the aircraft should make about 2000 flights. Judging by the way the work is organised (as per PAK FA) we have no doubts that we will succeed in it and our armed force will get the aircraft in due time," said Vladimir Putin at a meeting in the Sukhoi Company.

Earlier Air Force Chief Colonel General Alexander Zelin said that induction of the aircraft will start in 2015.

T-50 PAK FA has a take-off weight exceeding 30 tons. It has widely spread engines and two fins, Its exteriors are designed with the utilisation of stealth technologies.

The aircraft is equipped with the latest avionics, implementing functions of electronic 'autopilot' and state-of-the-art radar with a phase-locked antenna array. It also has the in-flight fuelling capabilities.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2010 08:21

what will the indian 2-seater have to sacrifice for the extra cockpit? will it be fuel(range)? I doubt the basic airframe length will be extended as that would need a fresh test cycle.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Mar 2010 09:28

The Indian plane is not the PAK-FA. How close would it be no one knows - yet. With ALL that third party integration, it will need to be tested no matter what.

Austin wrote: Russia, India to develop joint 5G-fighter by 2016

Fomin said the fighter for the Indian Air Force could incorporate several integrated on-board systems developed by third parties.

"The integration is good because we will not have to invent a bicycle and can use the things that our neighbors already have, but it is also a difficult task because we will have to combine all the elements in a unified system," the official said.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 03 Mar 2010 23:06

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2010 23:12

the side looking X-band radar should be able to guide missiles in zone outside the 160-180 azimuth of main radar, albeit at reduced range.
or maybe its just a defensive aid to track incoming AAMs ?

this thing will have total defensive 360 radar coverage given the tail radar and fwd 180 anti-stealth cover via wing L-band panels.

quite possible the most radar coverage of anything flying ever - except a E3/Phalcon

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Mar 2010 23:16

no DSI?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Mar 2010 23:35

Singha wrote:the side looking X-band radar should be able to guide missiles in zone outside the 160-180 azimuth of main radar, albeit at reduced range.
or maybe its just a defensive aid to track incoming AAMs ?

this thing will have total defensive 360 radar coverage given the tail radar and fwd 180 anti-stealth cover via wing L-band panels.

quite possible the most radar coverage of anything flying ever - except a E3/Phalcon

per Bill Sweetman:

The F-22 has been described as an antenna farm. Indeed, it would resemble a signals-intelligence (SIGINT) platform were it not for the fact that the 30-plus antennas are all smoothly blended into the wings and fuselage. The ALR-94 provides 360[degrees] coverage in all bands, with both azimuth and elevation coverage in the forward sector.

IMHO, the PAK-FA is still evolving. The one that is fielded should be far better than what we have in front of us.

And, I have a nagging suspicion that the FGFA would be even better from an IAF PoV.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 03 Mar 2010 23:38

New Russian fighter to make 2,000 flights before production starts

So considering mass production starts 2016, they gotto make 2000 test flights in 6 years! Thats about 333 flights per year = roughly 1 flight every day!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2010 02:34

Even the ECR-90 is backed by couple of passive sensors for stealth targeting, along with the DAS package.

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Mar 2010 02:52

Do I see variable inlet ramps in the inlet manifold ? Austin/Igor any comments ?

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 04 Mar 2010 03:12

Dmurphy wrote:New Russian fighter to make 2,000 flights before production starts

So considering mass production starts 2016, they gotto make 2000 test flights in 6 years! Thats about 333 flights per year = roughly 1 flight every day!

From the same prototype or other two as well ?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 04 Mar 2010 04:44

Samay wrote:From the same prototype or other two as well ?

I read it somewhere that they are making three new birds by the year end.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Mar 2010 15:48

Interview: GD Victor Chepkin-NPO Saturn via Otaku

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Mar 2010 15:58

PAK-FA is flying with new engine already installed

“Claims that the fifth-generation jet allegedly has an old engine are wrong. Such claims are made by people with limited knowledge,” he said.

The Saturn Research and Production center made digitally-controlled engines of Project 117 for the new jet. The engine thrust was enlarged by 2.5 tonnes, as compared with the AL-31 engines, while the engine weight was cut by 150 kilograms. That allowed the new jet to move at a supersonic cruise speed, Pogosyan said.

“This engine meets the client’s requirements. This is not an intermediate product made particularly for test flights. The engine will be installed in jets, which will be supplied to the Russian Air Force and prospective foreign clients,” he said.

There will be another engine in the future, but it will take ten to twelve years to develop, Pogosyan said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Mar 2010 16:01

The 117 is in the same class as Eurojet EJ-200 with a T/W ratio of ~ 10:1 , quite a fine achievement , they managed to reduce the weight by 150 kg over AL-31FP but also increase its thrust to ~ 15 T , compared to AL-31FP thrust of ~ 12.5 T

Not to be confused with 117C which powers Su-35S and has a thrust of ~14.5T and T/W ratio of slightly more than 9:1

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Mar 2010 23:30

SaiK wrote:True, the Chinese orders have decreased considerably. "Су-27" . Of course, you know that the Chinese had recently copied our "Su-27". Prohibit their production and sale, we can not. We have only one way - to do better, one-third better. After all, as the Chinese proverb: "Standing and will overtake the tortoise."
- Chinese plane - an exact copy of our?

— Regarding the engine, it is not an exact copy. . I saw him. The Chinese have used and their development, but 70 percent is our AL-31F, all of our automation. To buy a license for the manufacture of engine they have not only bought a license for the repair of engines (of course with all the drawings). And since the repair and manufacture, in fact, very close, all the Chinese carefully studied and mastered the production of their own. In China, a very competent engineers, and that they will acquire these products, I personally have no doubt there was. Therefore, we have only one way out - to do better. "117С". And we have done engine "117C". Now let them drive on us!

One thing is xerox china to xerox khan transfers, that should not be ignored.. But, we do need to appreciate this copying technique, without any tech transfer documents.

Well Cheating and Copying can help them in the short run but it doesn't pay in the long run , the xerox J-11 is not exactly as good as the basic Su-27SK if one believes the russian source , they were not successful on the engine side either trying to reverse engineer it.

But the worst hit they took was now Russia does not trust them much and in any future transactions Russia does with China will ensure that Xeroxing it will be far tougher task , they will also put a IP agreement in place for defense agreement and the over all defence relations took a bad hit.

I would think it was fool hardy and naive of Chinese to illegally copy the Su-27SK and then boast about it didnt help them much and alerted the OEM .....now suffer

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Mar 2010 23:42

but there was also one 117S ?

austin, could you give us a primer on the current roosi engines ? what config would you expect the mig 5gen to have ? and which engines ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Mar 2010 23:57

Rahul M wrote:but there was also one 117S ?

austin, could you give us a primer on the current roosi engines ? what config would you expect the mig 5gen to have ? and which engines ?

The 117S ( or 117C ) apparently refer to the same engine , it perhaps got the "S" to it because of being used on production variant of Su-35 i.e. Su-35S for RuAF

Mig fate has effectively been sealed ,Putin recently mentioned about a new 5th Gen Bomber besides PAK-FA , nothing on another mig or light 5th gen plane/engine. They probably have to be content developing Skat type UCAV in the future and Mig-35/29K for now.

We wont see a new engine till a decade from now , what ever new powers PAK-FA in the future will take atleast a decade as per russian official , I hope they opt for Variable Cycle Engine for new 5th Gen engine type.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2010 00:04

here is a short primer on AL-31 and its derivative , I tried to put up some data on the 3 generations of engine within AL-31 family the data on the new 117 ( sfc/service life etc) is not known .

AL-41F1A is apparently a marketing and fancy name for AL-31 derivatives , they have used hot parts ,core, larger dia fan etc derived from the original AL-41F engine developed for Mig-1.42 and tried to keep more or less AL-31 dimension and increase its thrust , engine life and reduce weight by small margin.

AL-31FP ---> Su-30MKI ( 4 + ) link

AL-31FP specifications:

T/W ~ 8:1

AL-31 ( 117C/S ) ---> Su-35S ( 4++ ) link

AL-31(117S) specifications:

Full afterburning thrust,kgf 14,000 Normal / 14,500 Combat mode
Specific fuel consumption.min.kg/kgf.h 0.67
Weight,kg 1520
Length,m 4.99
Inlet diameter,m ~ 0.93
T/W ~ 9:1

AL-31 ( 117 ) ---> PAK-FA( 5th Gen )link

AL-31(117) specifications:

Full afterburning thrust,kgf 15,000
Specific fuel consumption.min.kg/kgf.h 0.67
Weight,kg 1370 (1)
Length,m 4.99
Inlet diameter,m ~ 0.93
T/W ~ 10:1

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 07 Mar 2010 00:58

^^^ Wonlee problem with the above saar is that the AL-31FP that was used on the MKI did not come from NPO saturn, iirc either MMPP salyut or more likely, UMPO was responsible for MKI engines. The latter are also responsible for the 117S engines which are on the Su-35.

CM.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Mar 2010 01:02

thanbks a lot for taking the pains austin.

btw, I figured out the s/c bit. s -> c in cyrilic ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Mar 2010 01:07

is Saturn the design bureau while Salyut the production agency? kinda like sukhoi & IAPO/KnAAPO

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Mar 2010 06:07

what was the recent merger (mig,sukhoi, and others?). I guess pak-fa was given money after this merger.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Mar 2010 07:40

Sukhoi - so far - has funded the PAK-FA. Their chief just stated that he expects proper funding for the engine (the 10 year expectation), etc. I do not think, or, I have not seen/read anything so far that seems to indicate otherwise.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Mar 2010 08:54

got it, it is the UAC.

http://www.uacrussia.ru/en/

http://www.uacrussia.ru/en/corporation/
charter

but the migs are not listed here:-
http://www.uacrussia.ru/en/models/military/

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2010 10:44

Cain Marko wrote:^^^ Wonlee problem with the above saar is that the AL-31FP that was used on the MKI did not come from NPO saturn, iirc either MMPP salyut or more likely, UMPO was responsible for MKI engines. The latter are also responsible for the 117S engines which are on the Su-35.

CM.

Thanks CM , but that would not change the sum and substance of the specs on AL-31FP ?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 07 Mar 2010 13:30

Some Nice snaps from KEYPUBLISHING FORUM:

Beast.

A Su-30 parked side by side...!

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Mar 2010 13:33

^ The second one looks like a PS job to me .

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2010 16:19

( image via secretprojects )

Negi its the angle that did the trick and makes it look much smaller than Su-35.

But the PAK-FA to my untrained eye looks ~ 15 - 20 % smaller than Su-35, but if bigger is better than Su-3x wins hands down

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 07 Mar 2010 17:43

Austin wrote:http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/5605/img9707i.jpg

Is it just the angle of the photography or does the ENTIRE vertical stabilizers of the PAKFA are movable.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 07 Mar 2010 17:47

^^
Its not the angle, entire vertical stabilizers are indeed movable.