Indian Space Program Discussion

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Significant boost in the budget for manned mission
India’s human space flight programme got a major boost as the Union Budget on Friday proposed a significant allocation to it and also sought increase in funds for setting up an indigenous global positioning system.

The budget, presented by Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee in the Lok Sabha, has allocated Rs 150 crore for the human spaceflight programme . . .

The budget has proposed Rs 100 crore for Chandrayaan. Space scientists are planning to land two robotic rovers on the moon to carry out tests on the lunar surface.

The allocation for the Indian Regional Navigational Satellite System (IRNSS), on the lines of US’ Global Positioning System (GPS), was pegged at Rs 262.10 crore against the revised estimates of Rs 220 crore last year.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by dinesha »

Budget for Indian space agency up by 58 percent
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/sci ... 26946.html
Chennai, Feb 26 (IANS) Indian space programme got a booster dose Friday with its plan allocation for fiscal 2010-11 rocketing up by 58 percent over that of previous year in the budget presented by Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee in parliament Friday.
The budgetary allocation for the Department of Space shot up to Rs.5,000 crore for the next fiscal as compared to the revised estimates of Rs.3,172 crore for 2009-10.

The budget has allocated Rs.500 crore for building Indian Space Research Organisation’s (ISRO) two rockets - polar satellite launch vehicle (PSLV) and geosynchronous satellite launch vehicle (GSLV).

A sum of Rs.153 crore has been allocated for the development of GSLV Mark III, a rocket that can carry four-tonne payload and Rs.250 crore for development of semi-cryogenic engine.

Compared to Rs.230 crore allocated to ISRO’s manned mission in 2009-10, the funds for the next fiscal have been reduced to Rs.150 crore.

ISRO has worked out the total cost of the mission at Rs.12,000 crore.

While Rs.100 crore has been set aside for the lunar mission, Rs.262 crore has been provided for setting up navigational satellite systems.

“Factoring the non-plan expenditure, the allocation for the next fiscal is up by 38 percent,” S. Satish, director (publications), told IANS from ISRO’s headquarters in Bangalore over telephone.

For 2009-10, the revised estimates - plan and non plan - are put at Rs.4,167 crore whereas the figure for the next fiscal is Rs.5,778 crore, he added.

According to him, in the last fiscal the allocation for the manned mission was brought down to Rs.30 crore against the initial allocation of Rs.230 crore.

In effect, the allocation for the manned mission for the next fiscal is up by Rs.120 crore, he said
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by disha »

Chandrayan-I detects Ice on moon!

The finding would give future missions a new target to further explore and exploit, a NASA statement said, adding it is estimated that there could be at least 600 million metric tons of water ice in the craters.

"The emerging picture from the multiple measurements and resulting data of the instruments on lunar missions indicates that water creation, migration, deposition and retention are occurring on the moon," Paul Spudis, principal investigator of the Mini-SAR experiment at the Lunar and Planetary Institute, said yesterday.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Jayram »

Same as above except this is from MSNBC..
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35653907/ns ... nce-space/
with composite pictures as well..
This is really good/big news.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

From ISRO's website:

"Indian Space Research Organisation successfully conducted the flight testing of its new generation high
performance sounding rocket today (March 3, 2010) at 08.30 Hrs, from the Satish Dhawan Space Centre (SDSC), SHAR.

Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV-D01), weighing 3 tonnes at lift-off is the heaviest sounding rocket ever developed by ISRO. It carried a passive scramjet engine combustor module as a test bed for demonstration of Air- Breathing propulsion technology.

During the flight, the vehicle successfully dwelled for 7 seconds in the desired conditions of Mach number (6 + 0.5) and dynamic pressure (80 + 35 kPa). These conditions are required for a stable ignition of active scramjet engine combustor module planned in the next flight of ATV.

The successful flight testing of ATV-D01 is a step ahead towards the advanced technology initiative taken up by ISRO in the area of Air- Breathing propulsion."
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by prashanth »

Way to go ISRO!
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Nalla Baalu »

Couple of thumbnail sized images of the sounding rocket with attached scramjet combustion chamber (scaled down?) from the same source
Varoon Shekhar wrote:From ISRO's website:

"Indian Space Research Organisation successfully conducted the flight testing of its new generation high
performance sounding rocket today (March 3, 2010) at 08.30 Hrs, from the Satish Dhawan Space Centre (SDSC), SHAR.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by nayar »

Nalla Baalu wrote:Couple of thumbnail sized images of the sounding rocket with attached scramjet combustion chamber (scaled down?) from the same source
Varoon Shekhar wrote:From ISRO's website:

"Indian Space Research Organisation successfully conducted the flight testing of its new generation high
performance sounding rocket today (March 3, 2010) at 08.30 Hrs, from the Satish Dhawan Space Centre (SDSC), SHAR.

Is that white thing on the left picture a scaled down model of the scramjet engine we are designing ??
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by steve »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:From ISRO's website:

"Indian Space Research Organisation successfully conducted the flight testing of its new generation high
performance sounding rocket today (March 3, 2010) at 08.30 Hrs, from the Satish Dhawan Space Centre (SDSC), SHAR.

Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV-D01), weighing 3 tonnes at lift-off is the heaviest sounding rocket ever developed by ISRO. It carried a passive scramjet engine combustor module as a test bed for demonstration of Air- Breathing propulsion technology.

During the flight, the vehicle successfully dwelled for 7 seconds in the desired conditions of Mach number (6 + 0.5) and dynamic pressure (80 + 35 kPa). These conditions are required for a stable ignition of active scramjet engine combustor module planned in the next flight of ATV.

The successful flight testing of ATV-D01 is a step ahead towards the advanced technology initiative taken up by ISRO in the area of Air- Breathing propulsion."

Now.....What is the difference between Passive Scramjet engine and Active Scramjet engine.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Nalla Baalu »

IMO, Passive means combustion was not attempted in this flight and the scramjet engine did not provide any thrust to the flying object(sounding rocket). Perhaps they instrumented important areas of air-flow path (through the scramjet engine) to study key parameters like flow, pressure, temp. et cetera.
steve wrote:Now.....What is the difference between Passive Scramjet engine and Active Scramjet engine.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by raja_m »

Seems like after 4 years, scramjet has come out of the lab! :)

http://www.hindu.com/seta/2006/01/19/st ... 151500.htm

Any chance of having the avatar HSTV as payload on the sounding rocket? or do we need a separate rocket for that

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6748/hstdv0gw.jpg

Edited Later: Come to think of it, the 6.5 mach number matches with design for Avatar
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Gagan »

Here is the scramjet ATV:
Image
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Kailash »

Too less information... this is such a tremendous achievement by ISRO and no PR campaign about it ?!

Was there a separation of the scramjet from the rocket? or was it always attached to the rocket ?

And if there was no separation and ignition of the scramjet engines, why was the test restricted to just 7 seconds - cant rockets hold that speed for much longer periods?
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by disha »

Kailash wrote:Too less information... this is such a tremendous achievement by ISRO and no PR campaign about it ?!
Since this was a test of the test bed, definitely a major step but not yet a significant breakthrough. So put it this way, ISRO is on a cusp of something path breaking at the same time they know that it is start of another journey.
Was there a separation of the scramjet from the rocket? or was it always attached to the rocket ?

And if there was no separation and ignition of the scramjet engines, why was the test restricted to just 7 seconds - cant rockets hold that speed for much longer periods?
No this was not meant to be a separation of the scramjet from the rocket and neither there was an ignition. The scramjet will never be separated. The idea was to qualify the test bed in real flight condition. If one looks 4 years back, ISRO had 6 second sustained ignition at mach 6 in air tunnels on ground. Now the question is how do you know that the ignition in your "scramjet" is being achieved at the desired mach? One cannot fly the ground based air tunnels in air! Hence the test bed which is a modified sounding rocket of 3 tons. The sounding rocket should provide at least 6 seconds of "test environment" which is the right mach and pressure for the scramjet engine. Once designed, the sounding rocket has to be tested to ensure it will provide required the conditions within the scramjet chamber. This is such a test.

Next they will achieve ignition and combustion. The combustion thrust will be measured and tuned. Then it will be scaled up. Each stage will require different test conditions. They may even stage the sounding rocket on a booster possibly.This is a great start nonetheless.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Victor »

Combustion did take place. The tricky part seems to be getting and maintaining combustion in a high mach airflow while flying through the atmosphere and this was done (burning candle in a hurricane). Sounds like the combustion module did not provide any thrust since it was not installed as an engine (with an inlet or an exhaust nozzle, therefore 'passive') and next time, it will be configured as an engine and provide thrust (active). It will still need to be mounted on a rocket in order to get supersonic airflow. Much like Shourya which is being called a hypersonic cruise missile :-?
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by disha »

Victor wrote:Combustion did take place.
I am reading it otherwise.
The tricky part seems to be getting and maintaining combustion in a high mach airflow while flying through the atmosphere and this was done (burning candle in a hurricane).
This is from the report on ground test 4 years back.

I am reading it otherwise. Here is ISRO's update:
"Indian Space Research Organisation successfully conducted the flight testing of its new generation high
performance sounding rocket today (March 3, 2010) at 08.30 Hrs, from the Satish Dhawan Space Centre (SDSC), SHAR.

Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV-D01), weighing 3 tonnes at lift-off is the heaviest sounding rocket ever developed by ISRO. It carried a passive scramjet engine combustor module as a test bed for demonstration of Air- Breathing propulsion technology.

During the flight, the vehicle successfully dwelled for 7 seconds in the desired conditions of Mach number (6 + 0.5) and dynamic pressure (80 + 35 kPa). These conditions are required for a stable ignition of active scramjet engine combustor module planned in the next flight of ATV.

The successful flight testing of ATV-D01 is a step ahead towards the advanced technology initiative taken up by ISRO in the area of Air- Breathing propulsion."
No combustor module, no combustion until the next flight. Again, I see it as a qualification of the test bed. That is IMHO a better approach, far better than what the woomera guys were attempting!
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by disha »

Victor wrote:Combustion did take place.
I am reading it otherwise.
The tricky part seems to be getting and maintaining combustion in a high mach airflow while flying through the atmosphere and this was done (burning candle in a hurricane).
That would apply to the report on ground test 4 years back.

I am reading it otherwise. Here is ISRO's update:
"Indian Space Research Organisation successfully conducted the flight testing of its new generation high
performance sounding rocket today (March 3, 2010) at 08.30 Hrs, from the Satish Dhawan Space Centre (SDSC), SHAR.

Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV-D01), weighing 3 tonnes at lift-off is the heaviest sounding rocket ever developed by ISRO. It carried a passive scramjet engine combustor module as a test bed for demonstration of Air- Breathing propulsion technology.

During the flight, the vehicle successfully dwelled for 7 seconds in the desired conditions of Mach number (6 + 0.5) and dynamic pressure (80 + 35 kPa). These conditions are required for a stable ignition of active scramjet engine combustor module planned in the next flight of ATV.

The successful flight testing of ATV-D01 is a step ahead towards the advanced technology initiative taken up by ISRO in the area of Air- Breathing propulsion."
No combustor module, no combustion until the next flight. Again, I see it as a qualification of the test bed. That is IMHO a better approach, far better than what the woomera guys were attempting!
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by manoba »

Were there two things (scramjets) tested on one single sounding rocket? The ISRO press release says, "It carried a passive scramjet engine combustor module as a test bed for demonstration of Air-Breathing propulsion technology."

Or the encircled things in the below image are not scramjets and a single scramjet is built "inside :?:" the sounding rocket? Or the second one is just a dummy to maintain equilibrium? Or is it just me seeing things? :-? :oops:

Image

Original image from ISRO website
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Murugan »

word Antariskha is found in shanti paath (Yajurved)

oM dyauH shAntirantarikSaM shAnti
pRthivI shAntirApaH shAnti ouShadhayaH shAntiH |
vanaspatayaH shAntir vishvedevAH shAntir brahma shAntiH
sarvaM shAntiH shAntireva shAntiH sA mA shAntiredhi ||
oM shAntiH shAntiH shAntiH ||
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Klaus »

disha wrote: That is IMHO a better approach, far better than what the woomera guys were attempting!
disha, just so that we can recap what went on at Woomera.

This was the May 2009 scramjet test, locally known as HyShot 2, Clicky

A few months before HyShot 2, there was an improvised test using a Zuni rocket, Uni students fly supersonic jet engine :P
School of Mechanical Engineering students have successfully designed, constructed and test flown a supersonic ramjet engine at the Woomera rocket range as part of their final year project, where they were able to put into practise four years of University study. The project required the students to aerodynamically compress air into a combustion chamber when travelling at supersonic speed, then inject, vapourise and burn liquid fuel while at the same time deploying an array of sensors to study the aerothermal physics, both inside and outside the engine. It is an incredibly challenging task, requiring skills in fluid dynamics, structural analysis, computational fluid dynamics, combustion, mechanical design, mechatronics and project management.

The ramjet was accelerated to Mach 1.6 and achieved its aim of injection and combustion of liquid fuel while travelling at supersonic speed.

The students in the ramjet team were (from left in the photograph) Josh Carr, Lara Parkinson, Ryan Faulkner, Ed Harrison and James Tennant. Andrea Boyd (not shown), who was also part of the team, was responsible for sensor data capture and telemetry and at this time was positioned 5 km away at the data-link receiving station.

Engines such as the one designed by our students will one day be used to power high-speed jet aircraft and low-cost space launch systems. These engines are air-breathing, that is, they use the oxygen in the air to burn with fuel, eliminating the requirement to carry oxidiser thereby significantly reducing weight and cost.

This project was very generously supported by BAE Systems and the Sir Ross and Sir Keith Smith Fund. BAE Systems manufactured the ramjet to the students' specifications using a state-of-the-art computer controlled machining centre. It's a great example of how industry and academia and work together on an exciting educational project.

For further information contact Dr. Con Doolan or Dr. Vincent Wheatley .
And this was the HyShot 1 test in 2007, Clicky

@ manoba and nukavarapu, IMHO there was an accelerator rocket used in the ISRO test to take the scramjet to initial velocity, which is Mach 5, akin to the Zuni rocket used in the Woomera test in 2008. It would be necessary to reduce payload at lift off.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by manoba »

@ nukavarapu and @ Klaus: Thanks. Those air inlets, or whatever it maybe, look like an inverted DRDO's HSTD Vehicle like this

Image

Hence my question. But they seem to be very small for being an air breathing engine, so they might be just air inlets.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by disha »

Hopefully posts will not get deleted in the date change issue, and yes when I referred to Woomera, I was meaning the Hyshot tests ...

Anyways ...
Klaus wrote:This was the May 2009 scramjet test, locally known as HyShot 2, Clicky
The above is a HiFire test. And is a joint partner ship with US (USAF to be precise) and hence not a pure Australian effort. From the above link itself:
The series of up to 10 planned hypersonic flight experiments are part of a joint research program between the Defence Science and Technology Organisation and the US Air Force, designated as the Hypersonic International Flight Research Experimentation (HIFiRE).
You can read the rest of the HyShot here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyShot

Klaus wrote:A few months before HyShot 2, there was an improvised test using a Zuni rocket, Uni students fly supersonic jet engine :P
The zuni test is in supersonic regime and hence incomparable. ISRO also runs a college and their grads will work in supersonic regime too. Yes that can be possibly compared :P
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by sumshyam »

Test-firing of GSLV core stage halted at 150 seconds
The long-duration test-firing of the core stage of the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV- Mark III) (for about 200 seconds) at Mahendragiri near Nagercoil in Tamil Nadu was stopped on Friday evening after 150 seconds owing to a deviation in one of the parameters, said an official of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO).

The core stage, powered by 110 tonnes of liquid propellants, is called L-110.

The test took place at ISRO's Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre (LPSC).

ISRO officials said the data from the test was being analysed to find out why the deviation occurred.

More than 500 parameters are analysed during the test. This liquid stage is 17 metres in length and four metres in diameter.

The GSLV-Mark III will have three stages. Two boosters, powered by solid propellants, form the first stage. The boosters hug the core/second liquid stage. Above this liquid stage is the cryogenic stage. The rocket, weighing 630 tonnes, stands 43.5 metres tall. It can put a satellite weighing four tonnes in a geo-synchronous transfer orbit with a perigee of about 200 km and an apogee of 36,000 km.

A GSLV-Mark III flight from Sriharikota is expected by 2011-end.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by disha »

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by SaiK »

looking at the nozzle exhaust, what is the science behind :-

1. The flame is visible only from meters away from the nozzle?
2. The dia or size of flame is much narrower than the nozzle dia?


:?:
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by KrishG »

SaiK wrote:looking at the nozzle exhaust, what is the science behind :-

1. The flame is visible only from meters away from the nozzle?
2. The dia or size of flame is much narrower than the nozzle dia?


:?:
IIRC Vikas has an overexpanded nozzle. The exhaust flow for this type of nozzle is convergent. So, the hot exhaust gases converge as they come out of the nozzle. As they converge the exhaust gases at the middle will have such high KE and temp that a bright flame is visible. Also the outer layers of gases will be in direct contact with the atmosphere losing some heat to them.

This the Space Shuttle Main Engine also with a a OE nozzle. Observe that the exhaust pattern similar to that of Vikas.
Image
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

ISRO may launch forestry satellite by 2013
Union Minister of State for Environment and Forests, Jairam Ramesh, has announced that the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) will launch a dedicated forestry satellite in all likelihood by 2013.

With the biennial exercise in vogue, the facility will help to continuously monitor the forest cover, health and diversity.

Similarly, efforts are on to launch an indigenous satellite for monitoring greenhouse gases and aerosol emissions, which will place India in a select league.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Carl_T »

So does the failure of the stage push back the manned flight?
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by disha »

Carl_T wrote:So does the failure of the stage push back the manned flight?
In what way? This has no significant impact on the manned flight.

The current static test of L110 "failure" is way overrated. Pure DDM. As noted by ISRO, this is a computer controlled static test with several test goals. One of the parameters out of several hundreds monitored by the computer was not in expected line and the computer stopped the tests. Engineers will investigate, debug and fix the issue before conducting the test. This is part of stage qualification!

Issues like above are generally built in the timelines and it may delay the launch of the GSLV-MkIII, but this issues are par for the course.

<rant> DDM fed on "successes" of "foreign" do not realize the difference between "failure" and failure. A Chinese launch killing several hundreds is a tragic accident, while GSLV D1 strap on failure and launch abort is a major failure on maiden launch! Go figure!!</rant>
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

"VinodTK wrote:
Isro rocket test fails


Beautiful looking stage http://www.isro.org/pressrelease/conten ... /L110.jpeg"

Yes it is, thanks. BTW what is that cylindrical object on the right side of the picture? One of the stages, tankages, strap on motors?

You're right about the DDM and Indian failures. You wonder if they realise that Ariane had 6 failures before its first success, and this represents the cumulative experience and infrastructure of several European countries, more advanced than India.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

SaiK wrote:looking at the nozzle exhaust, what is the science behind :-

1. The flame is visible only from meters away from the nozzle?
2. The dia or size of flame is much narrower than the nozzle dia?
The plume signature is determined by a number of things such as propulsion systems, propellants, nozzle geometry etc. The plume exits the nozzle at supersonic velocity. There are two parts of the plume which are of interest, the periphery and the central part (aka inviscid inner core). They both hit a shock wave subsequently. The periphery hits an oblique shock wave and the flow direction is bent. The central core part passes through a shock wave that is perpendicular to the incoming supersonic flow that results in no change in direction. This boundary is known as Mach Disk. These cause the typical diamond shape.

The inviscid inner core which is also fuel rich had not yet mixed with the air unlike the peripheral flow which burns with the oxygen in the air. At Mach Disk, the inner core reduces in velocity but increases in temperature and pressure and burns with the oxygen in the air. Hence we see the flame a few feet/metres away from the nozzle. The flow beyond Mach Disk becomes subsonic and again increases to supersonic. This pattern is repeated.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by dinesha »

ISRO puts off Israeli payload’s launch
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100308/main7.htm
Responding to this reporter’s query, Noah Brosch, Tel Aviv University’s Wise Observatory director, who is the Israeli principal investigator of TAUVEX, said, “I have been made aware of the satellite problems, and knew that the panel on which TAUVEX was mounted had been taken off to allow work to proceed on some components (unrelated to TAUVEX) that needed replacing.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by KrishG »

Carl_T wrote:So does the failure of the stage push back the manned flight?
Why ?? Where is L110 stage used in HSF ??
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Carl_T »

disha wrote:
Carl_T wrote:So does the failure of the stage push back the manned flight?
In what way? This has no significant impact on the manned flight.

The current static test of L110 "failure" is way overrated. Pure DDM. As noted by ISRO, this is a computer controlled static test with several test goals. One of the parameters out of several hundreds monitored by the computer was not in expected line and the computer stopped the tests. Engineers will investigate, debug and fix the issue before conducting the test. This is part of stage qualification!

Issues like above are generally built in the timelines and it may delay the launch of the GSLV-MkIII, but this issues are par for the course.

<rant> DDM fed on "successes" of "foreign" do not realize the difference between "failure" and failure. A Chinese launch killing several hundreds is a tragic accident, while GSLV D1 strap on failure and launch abort is a major failure on maiden launch! Go figure!!</rant>
Hey now, my only experience with rockets is model rockets. I thought the GSLV was going to be used on the manned flight, hence I assumed as much.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by SaiK »

Thank you SSridhar and KrishG for the clear explanations.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by KrishG »

Carl_T wrote: Hey now, my only experience with rockets is model rockets. I thought the GSLV was going to be used on the manned flight, hence I assumed as much.
Mk-III isn't going to be used for manned flight, atleast as of know. Mk-II, a variant of which will be used for HSF doesn't have the L110 stage although both of their 1st stages are powered by Vikas (1 in case of GSLV and 2 in case of Mk-III). IIRC there was no problem with the engine in static testing and Vikas has been tested extensively.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Hiten »

A documentary prepared by ISRO about Chandrayaan-1 - Passage to the Moon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loAycuIOObo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyw87aNY42E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAOYWxvuQys

Has a very Doordarshan-sque feel to it. :) With either Prof. Yashpal or Grisih Karnad as the narrator, my Turning Point experience would have been complete.
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