Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Mar 2010 18:26

DevS wrote: Sir, I've mentioned 45000 Paki army soldiers not 45000 Paki armed forces.Wikipedia puts the figures at 79,700 Pakistan Army soldiers and paramilitary personnel which means around 30,000 POWs were paramilitary/police etc.

@Gerard : "Only armed forces members can be POWs. Civilians can be interned but they are not POWs."
Sir, the Paki stamp you've shown says 90,000 POWs.So, the Pakis themselves confirming that the 90,000 POWs were all in fact armed force members.

... and therefore Wikipedia is wrong, as per Pakis own admission and that the figures you calculated from Wikipedia were also wrong as a consequence of that.

kgoan · Post by **kgoan** » 04 Mar 2010 19:24

Anujan:

I don't think we're as far apart as it may seem. What else is Pak (RAPE) "society" other than a pale image of the Pak Army?

Ramana and other old timers:

Do you folks remember the famous interview that the JI's Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khan gave to Jalil Amir of Jamhooria Islamia (Feb 1999 issue)?

I can no longer find the full interview so I've uploaded it here:
Interview

Reread that article again in the light of the Headley business. . .

To those who haven't seen that before, read it carefully. (BTW, its a crap uploading site. Could some kind soul make that file available on a better site, I dunno which ones they are.)

That is the very essence of the Pak Army strategy.

Folks make a mistake of thinking the Pak Army works in isolation of the rest of the Jihadi elements. It does not. The Nazaria-e-pakistan and the strategy in that file is the fundamental framework.

The Pak Army is simply the base glue (because they wield the sword) that holds the whole matrix of hatred and overweening ambition for an Islamist Empire together.

Think of the Pak Mil as the sort of PMOs office which holds all the various depts of the Jihadi "govt" together. As the PMOs office it is in charge. It can create and destroy the other "depts" (JeM, HuM etc) *almost* at will . . . but those "depts" are still "independent" to a degree.

The LeT is this "PMO's" secretariat in Jihad. It is the vital glue that binds the "PMO" to the rest of the Jihad enterprise.

Talking about the LeT independently of the Pak Army is, IMO, only possible for vapid western "analysts". We cannot.

arun · Post by **arun** » 04 Mar 2010 19:38

X Posted. Unsurprisingly there is a connection to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. These German Jihadi Islamic terrorists were trained for terrorism in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

German Islamist fanatics jailed for planning 'second September 11'

Four Muslim fanatics who planned "bloodbaths" at US targets in Germany in an attempt to create a "second September 11" have been jailed.

Allan Hall, in Berlin
Published: 11:45AM GMT 04 Mar 2010

Fritz Gelowicz, the ring leader, got 12 years, his German sidekick Daniel Schneider - both converts to Islam - 11 years while two accomplices were sentenced to five years each for their roles in a plot to detonate explosives 100 times more powerful than those used in the London Underground bombings of July 2005.

The four men, known as the "Sauerland Cell" after the tourist region where they stockpiled massive amounts of chemicals for the bombs, were jailed at the end of a nine-month trial.

In a rare move, prosecutors allowed them to plea-bargain their guilt in return for what the defendants hoped would be far shorter sentences. ………………..

All have given detailed accounts of their terrorist training at a camp in Pakistan's "bandit country" of Waziristan together with details of the US bases that they planned to blitz with their home-made devices for the Islamic Jihadist Union. ………………..

"The confessions of the accused were the most comprehensive talks concerning terrorism ever heard in a German court of law," said Rolf Tophoven, director of the institute of terrorism research and security policy in Essen.

"They gave an exact description of what was going on in the terror training camps in Pakistan." ………………..

Telegraph, UK

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Mar 2010 19:46

^^^ The number of Pakistani construction workers killed in Kandahar has climbed.

Death that visited Indian’s in Kabul on Feb 26th came pretty quickly calling on Pakistani construction workers in Kandahar:

Wonder if there is a connection?

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 04 Mar 2010 20:50

Nihat wrote:Absolutly no shortage of armchair Guru's on BR , dictating foreign policy measures wrt to TSP and maligning the PM by name calling but when it comes to concrete and workable solution regarding TSP, no one has a clue barring very few exceptions on BR.

The question to ask the self proclaimed foreign policy experts is "If not this way then which way". 170 million+ rabid dogs live next door and are full of hot air and jihadi sentiment against India, furthur fuel is added owing to India's economic, diplomatic and defence growth..........Our one and only objective regarding TSP should be how to stop the terror attacks.

Nihatji,
All of us ,well most of us are armchair experts only. PM by virtue of position is respected. He is not heaven sent and rightly so should be hauled for any mistake that works contrary to what has been promised in the election manifesto (Every political party fights basis the list of promises in Election manifesto). 99.99999999999999999% of my countrymen did not vote for him. Only 38 MP/MLA voted for him out of a population of 1.2 billion. even a village pradhan has to get more votes.

GOI runs the administration under a limited mandate from the citizens of India. It is not other way round.

Regarding TSP, there are many solutions if we dig ourselves out of the hole we have put in, "We have no alternative but talk, They are rabid mongrels, what can we do against such hatred ". To list a few..

1. Threat of target killing - Declare it openly that India will target people for the crimes against Indians

2. Carry out the threats - once we do it three four times, I want to see a Jeeehardi with b#$lls to attempt it

3. Use the entire quota of water from the Indus water treaty - we are using only 10% of the Western riparian water systems - Indus . We legally have right to more

4. File PIL in Supreme court against the GOI for violation of parliament resolution on Kashmir - Claim to POK. Only the people of the country with a majority vote can legalise giving away the claim. Bind the GOI in Knots thus reducing the elbow room for these MMS and peacenik menon types to satiate their hunger for Nobel peace prize. I am going to take this route in few months.

5. Encourage availability of large scale ***** films

6. Stop the Visas for the Paki Rape class to India

7. Encourage the baluchis

need i write more

arun · Post by **arun** » 04 Mar 2010 21:04

Pakistan Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit was part of the delegation that visited India for the Foreign Secretary level talks where India is supposed to have asked for the terrorist : Hafiz Saeed.

So did India as a misplaced CBM not ask for Saeed or is Abdul Basit pulling a fast one when he said this?:

Pak Foreign Office says not aware of India's demand on Saeed

Posted: Thursday , Mar 04, 2010 at 1848 hrs
Islamabad: …………………………

"I don't think they have asked for Hafiz Saeed. I am not aware that they have asked for Hafiz Saeed to be handed over,"

Indian Express

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Mar 2010 21:13

chandrabhan:

I agree with your list. In short, India should drop its pretense that TSP is just a mosquito bite, and get down and dirty and do real equal equal. I also think its high time right wing groups like Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal etc step and put their money where their mouth is; instead of poor Biharis and north Indians, LeT cadres, TSPA, and ISI should be their target. Now then even I will say LeT == Shiv Sena etc.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 04 Mar 2010 21:23

^^^

Fat chance of the Indian government supporting such rgroups. And since some of their interests are rather regional, we can very well see delegitimization of the Indian government in favour of regional governments.

Sen_K · Post by **Sen_K** » 04 Mar 2010 22:02

Advani vs MMS on TSP policy

Veteran BJP leader LK Advani took the Government to task for ‘succumbing’ to US pressure in opening dialogue with Pakistan and demanded clarity on Kashmir, claiming there had been a shift in the US stand on the vexed issue. On the defensive, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh vehemently argued for the United States, claiming its President Barack Obama had assured him there had been no deviation of the US’ stated policy on the matter.

The verbal spat between the two leaders also covered other subjects such as the one-rank-one-pay for the armed forces, and took place on Wednesday during a discussion on Motion of Thanks to the President’s Address.

Advani attacked the Government and demanded that Singh come out clean on Kashmir. Speaking on the issue and resumption of dialogue with Pakistan, Advani said, “What have you gained with these talks? SM Krishna says it was a constructive dialogue. But his counterpart in Pakistan says we don't want to engage in cosmetic engagement. Why are we unnecessarily inviting insults? What is the point of this kind of dialogue?”

The senior BJP leader said there were reports that the Government was trying to reach a “secret agreement” on Kashmir. “We would want that, in his reply, the Prime Minister should tell the House what has happened formally and informally on Kashmir? There has been a shift in US policy on Kashmir. Earlier the policy was that they would not intervene unless both the sides wanted it to. But even during Obama's presidential elections he said in his speeches that ‘I’ll solve Kashmir problem’.”

At this point the Prime Minister intervened and asserted, “You are using this debate to sow seeds... What you are attributing to President Obama is certainly not true. I have had a number of discussions with President Obama and he has unambiguously said that there is no change in the US policy towards India and Pakistan (relations).”

Advani, however, did not give in. He insisted that the Government should report to Parliament if there is any dilution of the Indian stand. He repeated his demand that the Government should report on any formal or informal dialogue with Pakistan on Kashmir. The Prime Minister, however, was in a particularly combative mood as he took the battle into the rival camp. He again intervened, “Advani I would like to ask you a question. How many times did your Minister Jaswant Singh meet Strobe Talbott (US Deputy Secretary of state)? Did you share anything with Parliament then? Why are you expecting me to answer your hypothetical questions?”

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 04 Mar 2010 23:43

PLEASE NOTE THIS

[youtube]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/c3EgdkbUUuI&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/c3EgdkbUUuI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]
What is this method of flaming a muslim gathering is called in urdu/arabic , ?
Is he doing the same thing they do to brainwash muslims to become terrorists?
Had they started to brainwash whole pakistan , by initiating a project say project ZZH [ zaid hamid ]??

arun · Post by **arun** » 04 Mar 2010 23:44

Brahma Chellaney in DNA on why the resumption of talks initiated by the Congress led UPA Government of our Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh with the Islamic Republic is a matter of concern..

IMO Brahma Chellaney is correct in pointing out that that the initiation of talks by India with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a matter of concern for Indians:

8 degrees of separation

Brahma Chellaney
Thursday, March 4, 2010 23:16 IST

A terrorist attack in Pune greeted India’s announcement of resumption of talks with Pakistan. And no sooner had the foreign secretary-level talks in New Delhi concluded than a bomb attack killed a number of Indians, including three army majors, in Afghanistan, the new front in the Pakistan-orchestrated jihad against India. These strikes have ended the 14-month lull in terror attacks against Indian targets, underscoring the wages of talking to an implacable adversary.

There are at least eight reasons to be concerned by the renewed talks. The first is the abrupt U-turn in Indian policy, which Pakistan correctly has viewed as a major diplomatic climb down by India, emboldening its military and intelligence. A second reason is that the shift in the Indian position occurred without the government so much as offering a reasoned explanation to the public for the switch. ................................

A third reason is that Indian overtures beget only more terrorism. ............................

The fourth reason is that the Indian decision to resume talks seemed designed to aid America’s Af-Pak strategy.........................

A fifth reason is that instead of applying direct leverage against Pakistan, India is depending on the US to lean on Islamabad. ............................

The sixth reason is that the Indian government has sought to pull the wool over the eyes of the Indian public by claiming that the resumed dialogue process is centred on terrorism when in reality it is about the usual issues, including Kashmir. ...........................

The seventh reason is that New Delhi is engaging not the actors that wield real power in Pakistan — the military establishment — but a civilian government that is neither responsible for the terror attacks against India nor is in a position to stop them. ...........................

The eighth and final reason is that such talks only reinforce the India-Pakistan pairing when the need is for India to de-hyphenate itself from the quasi-failed, terror-exporting Pakistan, which is a global crucible of extremism and fundamentalism. ..........................

DNA

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 05 Mar 2010 00:48

I was watching the TV program on HT last night Harinder Bawaja's (India Today), Ajit Doval, Gen. Malik and Gohar Ayub Khan were participating.

Harinder Bawaje had a report on Muridke where she showed that the JUD headquarter (which is suppose to be a banned organization by UNO) was still running and its hospital has no doctors or patients and neither does its Madrassa has any students. But there are large number of youngsters with AKs moving around in its complex.

Gohar Ayub Khan says that there are 1.5 million Kalashnikov with the non-state actors and thus they cannot prosecute them.

Gen Malik and others were totally on Jr. Ayub who couldn't explain the Pakistani perfidy at all.

My question is that apart from the pakistani normal army., do we have any plans to deal with these 1.5 million youngsters with AKs? (47 or 74).

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Mar 2010 00:52

At least if you are moving in on them, provoke them as much as possible so they come out to take badla, and then erase them. There is no war crimes if you kill in self defence during war. Dont warn them like the Brits to "melt away" to preserve their TA's.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Mar 2010 01:36

Talking about Najarye-Britishaitaniat , here is G..u Guardian guarding the harami child of UQ.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... -terrorism

The new face of the Pakistani army

Pakistan's army, the bedrock of an otherwise fragile state, may not be the most progressive institution. But recent developments suggest that military leaders realise it needs to change, even if key concerns remain.No issue puts Pakistan under the international spotlight more than its relationship with Islamist militancy. Questions over its continued links with the Taliban and other jihadist groups such as Lashkar-e-Taiba – widely believed to be responsible for the murderous attacks on Mumbai – have fuelled doubts over its capacity to bring stability to the region. At the heart of the debate is Pakistan's army, an at once nebulous yet strangely cohesive collective that has been blamed for playing a double game that has irked foreign allies and domestic hardliners alike.Those fears have led the army to some significant conclusions. At a press conference with foreign journalists last month, the usually media-shy army chief Pervez Kayani noted that a "Talibanised" society at home or in Afghanistan was not in Pakistan's interests
But international pressure to abandon the anti-India narrative is likely to leave the army "floundering to craft a fresh narrative based on 'Islam'," argues Chatham House analyst Farzana Shaikh. During last year's independence day celebrations, Kayani said that Pakistan was achieved in the name of Islam. With no consensus on what that precisely means, however, the military's search for an Islamic narrative, Shaikh adds, "is almost certainly doomed to failure".

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 05 Mar 2010 01:48

SSridhar wrote:
asprinzl wrote:These laser guided bombs are not going to hit Talib rebels but would be used to target strategic Indin assets in the case of a war. Indian silence is very disturbing.
If we look at the weapons supplied to Pakistan since circa 2002, like frigates, P3-Cs, AMRAAMs, armour piercing TOW missiles, Harpoons etc. the US intention is obvious. It wants to maintain the balance in conventional forces between us and the Pakistanis. We should not seek US weapons in our armoury. They are already unreliable suppliers anyway.

Operation Parakram might have convinced US to build up Pakistani conventional forces.

From Gurmeet Kanwal

http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/USArmsS ... wal_110210

India is justified in seeing the move to go ahead with the sale of the F-16s as an US attempt to balance its strategic partnership with India by once again propping up Pakistan as a regional challenger.

How come India is keeping quiet? There must some chankian reason.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 05 Mar 2010 02:08

csharma wrote:
How come India is keeping quiet? There must some chankian reason.

As much as India has very little leverage on US, if any, but the silence is defeaning. Be it Afganisthan or terror, the least India can do through its diplomats and beaurecrats is to raise the pitch on how US policies are hurintg India, and there is no equivalence between India & TSP. I mean the gall for thta rambo b@#$%rd Holbrooke to suggest India TSP equal equal on allegations of terror must be responded to. Does the a**-hole forgotten Mumbai, and is it just mere allegation that from India that TSP was behind. Is it a mere allegation that there are 1000s and 1000s of blood thirsty Islamic fanatics chant Jihadi to India right under his client TSPA? Is it a mere allegation that TSPA is upping the ante in J&K? And is it a mere allegation that TSP creates mayhem in Afganisthan while India is helping Afghanisthan? And all this equal equal despite his client MMS willing to "walk the extra mile with TSP"?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 05 Mar 2010 03:18

csharma wrote:
http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/USArmsS ... wal_110210

India is justified in seeing the move to go ahead with the sale of the F-16s as an US attempt to balance its strategic partnership with India by once again propping up Pakistan as a regional challenger.

How come India is keeping quiet? There must some chankian reason.

For a GOI that wants to avoid war with Pakistan at any and all costs, there is a Chankian reason all right; except that the Chankianism would be directed at its own people rather than the Pakis or the US.

During Parakram, some argued that India should not attack Pakistan because we didn't have a 3:1 plus military advantage vis a vis TSPA (which is apparently the favoured ratio for a successful attacker fighting on hostile ground).

If that argument held good at that time it will more than hold good now (after Unkil has been pumping the Pakis up with AMRAAMs, F-16s, LGBs, attack helicopters, harpoon missiles, naval vessels and P3C Orions outfitted for missile attacks against land targets). Pakistan is now on steroids, so the "less than 3:1" ratio of 2002 will have dropped much further against us.

This is the perfect excuse for any GOI that refuses to consider punitive action or coercive diplomacy of any kind, but only wants to placate Pakistan and the US by GUBOing shamelessly. "We can't do anything else because we are just not strong enough".

So why would such a GOI complain when the US makes Pakistan even stronger relative to us?

NikhilB · Post by **NikhilB** » 05 Mar 2010 04:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H_jL8zldig

The ususf kazaab issue is picking up heat against prophet zahid hamid and it is going to be more and more difficult for him to pacify the rabid mullas of pakis, even though he is 400% anti-india and claims to be 400% islamic. It is really scary to see how religion poison has been instilled in pakis populations through generations and generations that we see these petty issues becoming very very close to their islamic ideology. On other hand, we see in India Hindu fake babas given their due credit by media and police means we have much better rational and reasoned population on this side of border.

The bigger problem is that pakis are going to be increasingly bigotic in future - they will die for their ideology, and will fight for their ideology without applying any self consciousness and reasoning. The wahabi, sunni, sahabee, prophet kazaab groups - all are very much die hard fans of their own ideology, and have common denominator as hatred towards India.

As someone said above, if these jihadee groups do not get chance to kill kufr they will turn inwards and kills "less islamic" munaifqs among themselves - that is what they have been taught by each ideology.

So the MOST important thing for India to do this - close the border with pakis with as much defence as possible - Build double compound with electric wires, deploy robotic machines (mentioned in earlier threads), build a wall bigger and longer than china, do anything and close the border, and then watch them killing themselves in their own pure land.

Although physical barriers are less effective in this jet age, note that these jihadees are not going to have F16s easily available to them. So go ahead and build a wall higher and stronger than China wall, let us not worry about money here, let us not worry about what other nations will say. This is the safest options for our future generations in this country.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 05 Mar 2010 06:36

Pakis dropping hints that India is fighting a proxy war in Afghanistan

“I would not like to be drawn into this debate. It is important not to draw such conclusions at this stage. It is yet too early. US envoy Richard Holbrooke, too, had exercised restraint in blaming Pakistan for the killing of Indians in Kabul. It was unfortunate. The envoy said in that attack, the Indians were not the target,” the Foreign Office spokesman said while responding to queries during the weekly media briefing.

A few western diplomats in Kabul said the area where the Pakistanis were killed was not the one where there was any Indian influence. “It could just be an ordinary crime, as there is a lot of resentment amongst the Afghan labourers against foreign workers. Though we do not have any intelligence, but our analysis is that the killings of the Indians earlier were a crude attempt to scuttle the foreign secretary-level talks,” said a European diplomat.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Mar 2010 06:59

I would like to have my qibla set right if anyone has any different views. There are many ways to define the concept "Chankian". But Chankianism per se is meaningless unless we are able to see all the cards we have in our hands. One assumes that the GoI can see more cards than we can on BRF. As a rhetorical example was PVNR stupid and weak to postpone nuclear tests or was he "Chankian".

If India "strongly protests" to the US regarding arms sales the US will "soothingly reassure" India that they are not meant to be used against India. Then what?

If we accept that India must "fight war" against Pakistan what would the aim of this war be?

I am certain that India has the wherewithal to "deter aggression" from Pakistan. But Indian aggression against Pakistan is likely to be met with an infusion of support to Pakistan from the US and other friends. Pakistan may be a failing state but it is not weak and friendless. If the Pakistani army is not comprehensively defeated and disarmed in a war that india Initiates - I believe it would be a disaster. The last thing the US, China and others want is a comprehensive defeat of the Pakistani army. This in effect means that if India initiates war it will have to be prepared for "worst case" scenarios - including China action on the border and direct US action against India - like cruise missiles taking out salient Indian assets. That would be a nightmare scenario that could bring the handing of cashmere to Pakistan a closer reality than the forum allegations of treason against individuals who are being accused of "giving away Kashmir" and not being bold and assertive.

The signals to India are clear. "Deal with it" seems to be sage advice

India must not go too far in thwarting US interests in the region. Defeating the Pakistani army is going too far
The US will do "what it can" to dissuade the Pakistani army from attacking India, but India will have to put up with continuing terrorist attacks from the US - and there is little that India can do about it (for reasons mentioned above)
For India's cooperation the US will have to be taken on good trust and the US may step aside and allow India to react (wag a finger?) if a Mumbai type attack is repeated.
The US holds more cards in Pakistan that India can hope to hold

I believe all of the above are true and despite great anger - not just from BRF but also from people like Chellaney and Kanwal there is bugger all "rising India" "biggest democracy", "aspiring superpower" can do about it. This is the reality of US power over India and indicates why the US is the global power. It did not come by accident of be punching above one's weight.

Sit back and watch the spectacle folks - I'm not asking you to enjoy it - but you can see India toeing the line of a superpower who dictates how much leeway we have against a country whose people are out to bring India down. Dealing with this does not call for short term reactions. It requires a long term plan that screws the whore and her 3.5 customers.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 05 Mar 2010 07:06

India urged to respond to talks proposal

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -530-hh-04

ISLAMABAD: Islamabad said on Thursday that it was keenly awaiting New Delhi’s response to its proposed roadmap envisaging involvement of political leadership of the two countries for breaking the logjam in their ties.

“There are proposals on the table and we will see what Indian response is to our suggested roadmap,” Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit said at a media briefing, the first after the Feb 25 Pakistan-India foreign secretaries’ meeting in New Delhi.

These guys bitch about talks continuously.

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 05 Mar 2010 07:06

New twist in Benazir’s assassination probe The point in that piece is

This is the first time that the investigators are probing into the possibility of army soldiers’ involvement into the assassination of the former prime minister.

Not that we did not know, but here is a paki source saying paki armymen (members of the one organisation that is respected and holds the 'country' together) murdered their PM candidate, and then vanished!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Mar 2010 07:11

Added thought. When the Pakistani army understands fully well that it has the protection of the US as long as it does the US's job, it makes perfect sense for the Pakistani army to try and provoke war with India. For over a decade now the Pakistani warfighting doctrine has assumed "foreign intervention" to stop an India -Pakistan war, so the gamble to get India to attack Pakistan has many advantages for the Pakistani army.

This is one area that India cannot do anything about because the US is involved. India is forced to take the US "on trust" - and hope that the US lives up to its assurances that it will dissuade Pakistan from attacking Indian interests. The facts on the ground are that even if the US does not do that and turns a blind eye to attacks on India - theer is bugger all that india can do other than talk of severing relations wih the US. And that would be as bad, if not worse than the cold war days - when the US was at least slightly concerned about the USSR.

Our hands are tied. Other than thrashing about in frustration and gnashing our teeth there is little India can do other than cooperate with the US. There may be some Chankian moves outside of such cooperation but nobody has spelt that out on here and they are unlikely t become public. In fact we will never know if "Chankian moves" in Afghanistan led to the US okaying an attack on an Indian target.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 05 Mar 2010 07:22

shiv wrote:Sit back and watch the spectacle folks - I'm not asking you to enjoy it - but you can see India toeing the line of a superpower who dictates how much leeway we have against a country whose people are out to bring India down. Dealing with this does not call for short term reactions. It requires a long term plan that screws the whore and her 3.5 customers.

Look at it from the US point of view*. The Paki civvies matter diddly squat in GOAT. They dont have the power to command the army to fight, nor can the be expected to continue much longer in power if they make a public pronouncement of siding with Unkil to launch operations. In any case, if the army does not want to do the GOAT, if the civvies force them, the army can simply overthrow the civvies.

So it is clear that Unkil has to bribe the Paki army. What will he bribe them with? They already have enough money -- having taken over as much land and commercial opportunities as possible. They already have all the power they want, they can waltz into Isloo tomorrow if they wish. They already have all the autonomy they want -- Ashphuck is handing out extensions to himself and his cronies left and right. They dont care diddly squat about economic assistance to Pakistan to be spent in the social sector. They dont worry about sanctions. Unkil is not going to bomb them any time soon.

Unkil can only bribe them. And bribe them only with toys -- planes, bombs, frigates and missiles.

Now no matter how much HUE and CRY India makes, Unkil cannot forgo the use of carrots to make the Pak army comply. As long as GOAT remains No 1 foreign policy objective of Unkil and as long as Pakis are perceived to be central to GOAT -- if not a solution, at least the potential to create biggest headache -- Unkil will continue to bribe the Paki army.

There are two options for India.

1. India should not politically protest against arms supplies/FMS/munna sales to Pakistan. India *should* blacklist firms though. F16s to Pakistan? No F16 for MMRCA. This is one and only effective way of squeezing unkil's b@lls. Expect huge protests from LM next time Unkil wants to gift some F16s. To the people who think that it might mean that we wont get the "best", we lived without the "best" in the 60's, 70's, 80's and the 90's, but still fought and won wars.

2. India should covertly and overtly squeeze Paki b@lls. Saudi visit is a good thing. Should be followed up with some Iran cosying. Work to attach conditions to Paki aid. Make it clear to the Europeans (who have only money in the game and no foreign policy objectives) that selling anything to the Pakis will have serious consequences. Ask the middle east folks where they stand. Ask UK to back off. Build more dams on rivers. Help Afghanistan build a few on the Kabul river.

The options are endless.

1000 LGBs IMO is going to kill less Indians than LeT or JeM. If Pakis want to go to war with India within the next decade, they will have their musharrafs handed to them on a plate, their economy is on the brink of collapse.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 05 Mar 2010 07:26

^ Good suggestions.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Mar 2010 07:31

Mullah Omar’s son-in-law held from Karachi

* Former Afghan PM Motasim Agha Jan arrested from house in Ahsanabad area
* Afghan Taliban spokesman denies arrest

By Faraz Khan

KARACHI: Taliban supreme leader Mullah Omar’s son-in-law – who was ranked seventh in terms of seniority in the Taliban Shura hierarchy – has been arrested in a raid conducted in Karachi.

Sources said that Motasim Agha Jan – Mullah Omar’s son-in-law – was arrested from a house in Ahsanabad area late on Wednesday night. They said while “some aides” accompanied Jan at all times, he was alone in the house at the time of the raid. Citing two intelligence officials, the AP news agency confirmed Jan’s arrest.

Meanwhile, Afghan Taliban spokesman Qari Yousef Ahmadi denied Jan had been arrested. The sources said Jan had held various important Taliban posts after the end of the Cold War. They said he held the office of prime minister during the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. They said he was the seventh most senior leader of the Taliban Shura.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk\default.asp?page=2010\03\05\story_5-3-2010_pg1_1

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Mar 2010 07:40

The other point about protesting arms sales is complete lack of transparency on what aid is being given to Pakistan and by whom? I was fascinated to read the words of a forum member who said that he was 12 when Kargil took place. This young man was not even born when China transferred nuclear bomb designs and Uranium to Pakistan. And guess what - the same forum member is now a level headed thinking Indian on BR and the news about that 1980s transfer trickles down to us now?

What happened is "history" for him - just like the history we discuss elsewhere on BRF. What is anyone going to do about history when we can't even know what is happening now?

Yes the US does not give a damn about Abdul Packee, but the US equally does not give a flying fig for mango Indian. A nuke here or there in India will not concern the US too much. Countries smaller that India have survived a couple of nukes the the past. Only a nuke on the US is bad.

Of all the actions India can take, Indians need to assess the degree of risk to India. There is no option that India has that is 100% safe and secure. But India can take various actions which may entail 10% risk to 90% risk to India and Indians. Under the circumstances Indians must choose the best from this bad set of "bargains". There is no country in the world that is interested in the security of Indians. Indians will get hit no matter which route we take. And an American approach to security and safety is not open to us on the basis of the simple and ancient law "If my aunt had a d*k she would have been my uncle"

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Mar 2010 07:53

India has no good options regarding Gadhas next door becuase Indian leaders have not created options for India to act by taking various initiatives to neutralize the Pacqui schemes . Reacting to retard Pacquistanian terrorism is not an option but nature's way of kicking Indian ribs to wake them from slumber but politicans still keep pretending to sleep. Nuke half of Pacquistan in coming summer and deal with the world / explanation latter on. Pacqui existence is no so crucial to the civilized world that they will want to fill the vaccume created by vapourized Pacquis. Let the necessary caluclations be made if world will miss something with the disapperance of Pacquistan/iat tomorrow.

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 Mar 2010 07:56

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is getting one Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigate in September 2010 and is negotiating for five more:

Pakistan to pay $78 mn for 30 year old frigate

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 05 Mar 2010 08:03

Prem wrote:Mullah Omar’s son-in-law held from Karachi

* Former Afghan PM Motasim Agha Jan arrested from house in Ahsanabad area
* Afghan Taliban spokesman denies arrest

If some on BRF think that Indian policy is being steam rolled by the US...see what's happening to the pakis. Could anyone have imagined a year ago that most of the shura would be under house arrest. Pakis are either getting their lychees squeezed or they are playing a very dangerous game with the afghan taliban. It would be great to know which of these possibilities is driving the spate of arrests in pakiland. If it is the squeeze...interesting things will happen once the US leaves or reduces force levels.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Mar 2010 08:06

arun wrote:The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is getting one Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigate in September 2010 and is negotiating for five more:

Pakistan to pay $78 mn for 30 year old frigate

The US actually has so much money sloshing around that this is the method used by the GOTUS to supports it people in a US version of subsidies. 78 million for one frigate. That makes 10 frigates for less than a billion. So aid money to Pakistan goes straight back to the US. Those frigates will be monitored using P-8s, paid for by India

An Indian army captain has been killed fighting terrorists yesterday..

Its is not MMS who is weak. India is weak.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 05 Mar 2010 08:12

SSridhar wrote: If we look at the weapons supplied to Pakistan since circa 2002, like frigates, P3-Cs, AMRAAMs, armour piercing TOW missiles, Harpoons etc. the US intention is obvious. It wants to maintain the balance in conventional forces between us and the Pakistanis. We should not seek US weapons in our armoury. They are already unreliable suppliers anyway.

More than the unreliability of supplies, the bigger issue is spending huge sums of taxpayers' money to buy hardware that is likely to be infested with kill-switches and malware. For the first time, this is being discussed in the mainstream media. See http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/03/ ... or-in.html

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 05 Mar 2010 08:22

shiv wrote: Sit back and watch the spectacle folks - I'm not asking you to enjoy it - but you can see India toeing the line of a superpower who dictates how much leeway we have against a country whose people are out to bring India down. Dealing with this does not call for short term reactions. It requires a long term plan that screws the whore and her 3.5 customers.

Sage words. But who is going to do the long-term planning? Purchasable leaders, elected through untrustworthy voting procedures?

[edited to soften language]

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Mar 2010 08:26

Guddu wrote: Could anyone have imagined a year ago that most of the shura would be under house arrest. Pakis are either getting their lychees squeezed or they are playing a very dangerous game with the afghan taliban.

Or the Pakis and the Taliban both know that house arrest gives them immunity from drones.

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 Mar 2010 08:30

sum wrote:
^^^ The number of Pakistani construction workers killed in Kandahar has climbed.

Death that visited Indian’s in Kabul on Feb 26th came pretty quickly calling on Pakistani construction workers in Kandahar:
Wonder if there is a connection?

Elements in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan believe that the Kandahar attack on Pakistani nationals was instigated by India and from that standpoint is "connected" to the attack on Indian’s in Kabul on February 26.

Truth aside, if that Pakistani belief deters the Islamic Republic of Pakistan from targeting Indian’s in Afghanistan, then lets not disabuse Pakistani notions:

Indian agents behind killing of Pakistanis in Kandahar

Friday, March 05, 2010
By Muhammad Saleh Zaafir

ISLAMABAD: Afghanistan has become the new ‘battlefield’ between India and Pakistan as Indian agents have taken ‘revenge’ in Kandahar on Thursday by killing five Pakistanis. The Indians had earlier accused Pakistani agents of killing 17 people, including nine Indians, in an attack on a Kabul guesthouse. Pakistan has refuted the Indian allegation.

The Afghan secret service, Riyast-e-Amaniyat-i-Milly (RAM), known for its anti-Pakistan disposition, is providing assistance to the Indian agents working on the soil of Afghanistan. The Pakistani authorities have credible information about the involvement of Indian agents in the Kandahar incident and the government would furnish evidence to important world capitals at an appropriate time. Pakistan has sought details of the Kandahar incident from the Afghan authorities and asked them to nab the real culprits before they flee to India.

The incident took place in the early hours of Thursday when the Pakistani workers were going to the construction site of a Japanese company, Saita. The road from Kandahar to Panjwai is under construction and the gory incident took place on the same road when two motorcyclists started firing indiscriminately on the bus in which the workers were travelling. …………….

The News

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 05 Mar 2010 08:34

http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov/pr_holbrooke.html

Statement by Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard C Holbrooke

I regret any misunderstanding caused by my comments on the recent terrorist attack in Kabul, which claimed the lives of 6 Indians and at least ten citizens of other nations. I did not say Indians were not the target, but that initially it looked like the target was not an official Indian facility. Early reports on events like this are often unreliable, and I try not to jump to conclusions. We all know that Indian citizens have and continue to be targeted by terrorists, including inside Afghanistan. My heart goes out to the families of all of the victims.

The Afghan people and international community deeply appreciate the very substantial humanitarian and reconstruction assistance that India provides Afghanistan. The willingness of India to take risks and make sacrifices to help Afghanistan is testament to India's commitment global peace and prosperity and a vital part of the international commitment to Afghanistan's future.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 05 Mar 2010 09:02

shiv, the question is whether India will buy 10 billion dollars worth of F16 when US seems to be building up Pakistan as a regional challenger.

That decision should rest with the Indians and that will be the one to watch out for.

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 Mar 2010 09:14

abhishek_sharma wrote:Pakistan loses $400m to ‘enhanced oversight’

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -330-rs-08

Dawn editorial on the US not fully reimbursing the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s financial claims

:

The CSF appears to have become another lever for the Americans to press the Pakistanis in a difficult relationship fraught with mutual suspicion.

Link here:

CSF reimbursements

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 05 Mar 2010 11:17

State within a state? Ayesha Siddqa points out to Kayani's increasing power...

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 05 Mar 2010 11:26

Sir, the militants have multiplied in DT After talking about Rome, Latin, he comes around to observe that

banned and unbanned militant groups continue to work openly

For a country that is trying to fight terror on a national level, it has failed to make its own government representatives accountable to the national policy. It also means that the government — provincial and federal — is not implementing the writ of the state

Sir, your lament is understandable, but your 'state' has ceased to be one! It is a piece of real estate where some uniformed and not uniformed terrorists run a crime syndicate, with some pretentions to modernity (useful idiots) and under the protection accorded by the facade of a sovereign nation.