BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby sum » 18 Mar 2010 17:27

http://i40.tinypic.com/2w3cr3c.jpg

To Gurus..I appreciate if anyone can help me with this....

I have a query....We have seen countless photos of IA soldiers wearing different camos but I have never been able to quite understand the reason behind it.

For some reason, the photo cracked me up. The pic resembles a multi-national exercise with each soldier from a different army!!!


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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby RayC » 18 Mar 2010 17:32

Jagan wrote:
RayC wrote:

There is a life cycle procedure for personnel equipment for PBOR. They are issued two sets and I think the life is for three years (I forget the time limit).

The camouflage uniform fades in no time and so one cannot go around looking shabby.

One cannot buy OFB uniform. Therefore, the other option is through the open market.

:oops:



Still, time to time, even OFB products will make it to the common market - Unissued Uniforms, helmets, the whole lot. I dont know if it is via black market channels but it happens.


I would not know about unissued items, but items which are 'condemned' (items declared unserviceable by the Ordnance officer during check of equipment of units as per the programme) or those which have completed their lifecycle and auctioned, could find their way to the market.

Same like the disposal jeeps and trucks!

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Jagan » 18 Mar 2010 17:55

Oh yeah, I have seen those types - condemned ones as well.

The specific items I saw were camo print uniforms with OFB stamps on them on the revers. looked brand new to me.

-Jagan

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby atreya » 18 Mar 2010 19:11

sum wrote:
http://i40.tinypic.com/2w3cr3c.jpg

To Gurus..I appreciate if anyone can help me with this....

I have a query....We have seen countless photos of IA soldiers wearing different camos but I have never been able to quite understand the reason behind it.

For some reason, the photo cracked me up. The pic resembles a multi-national exercise with each soldier from a different army!!!


And take a look at their gloves! Purple, red! :shock:
Q.1 By the way, the first soldier from left has something sticking out from his right shirt pocket. Seems like a purple handle or something. Can someone identify it please?
Q.2 Why is there red tape stuck over the second soldier's AK 47 magazine and barrel?

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby RayC » 18 Mar 2010 19:17

Jagan wrote:Oh yeah, I have seen those types - condemned ones as well.

The specific items I saw were camo print uniforms with OFB stamps on them on the revers. looked brand new to me.

-Jagan


I will be frank that what you say is possible.

Given the shining example of illustrious leaders who accept cash garlands running into crores, 'eat up' the fodder and still become shining politicians of credit and welcomed to talk at IIMs and all this is accepted by the Nation as true and correct behaviour and none take cognisance of the same, it is but natural that maybe these leaders examples are taken to be true indication of the attitude that must be followed!

If one sees the ills that are visiting the Armed Forces, one is saddened but not surprised!

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby ASPuar » 18 Mar 2010 19:22

Ahaha so what had I said about the BSF wanting to buy planes immediately the air force makes any such announcement?

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby ASPuar » 18 Mar 2010 19:24

rohitvats wrote:
I hope you were serious while making the above argument. IAF not wanting to be part of anti-maoist operations and wanting CPO to take charge makes them dispensible? Similary, IA withdrawing from CI Ops in J&K and NE will make them dispensible? What, is the main role of IAF? And do you see that been threatened by CPO with couple of more helicopters, or even a Squadron worth? How does that compare with overall strength and re-eminence of IAF?


I was being absolutely serious. Pre-eminence means pre-eminence. You dont realise how quickly things can go downhill in bureaucratic supremacy battles.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Aditya G » 19 Mar 2010 03:48

Jagan wrote:.... The fact that they couldnt muster enough resources to operate these six choppers fully is a comforting factor that despite their budget, they wont pose a threat by raising a paramilitary airforce :)....


My thoughts that we ought to raise a second-line air force that can fly older or second line airframes, with the main IAF to be more "elite" and focussed. This "air force" should allow for reservists and part-timers. Something like the Auxilliary Air Force or AF equivalent of the TA.

We could equip this force with Mi-17s, An-32s, Avros, 1-2 sqn of Hawks and perhaps MiG-21s.

American has an elaborate Air Nation Guard, Civil Air lift mechanism.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Craig Alpert » 19 Mar 2010 03:57

Last edited by Gerard on 19 Mar 2010 06:09, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: text deleted - copyright

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Craig Alpert » 19 Mar 2010 04:32

Last edited by Gerard on 19 Mar 2010 06:09, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: text deleted - copyright

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Craig Alpert » 19 Mar 2010 04:35

Last edited by Gerard on 19 Mar 2010 06:10, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: text deleted - copyright

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Dmurphy » 19 Mar 2010 08:05


ASPuar
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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby ASPuar » 19 Mar 2010 09:48

Aditya G wrote:
Jagan wrote:.... The fact that they couldnt muster enough resources to operate these six choppers fully is a comforting factor that despite their budget, they wont pose a threat by raising a paramilitary airforce :)....


My thoughts that we ought to raise a second-line air force that can fly older or second line airframes, with the main IAF to be more "elite" and focussed. This "air force" should allow for reservists and part-timers. Something like the Auxilliary Air Force or AF equivalent of the TA.

We could equip this force with Mi-17s, An-32s, Avros, 1-2 sqn of Hawks and perhaps MiG-21s.

American has an elaborate Air Nation Guard, Civil Air lift mechanism.


Now that, is a REALLY good idea. Minimum fixed staff expense (theyre reservists, and paid only when on duty), a well trained auxiliary capability which can be mobilised in times of war/emergency/need. And, BEST OF ALL, as you have mentioned, there is already a statutory (legal) provision for it, under the Reserve and Auxiliary Air Forces Act, 1952. This act was not put into action, but it exists!

http://indianairforce.nic.in/RTI/Reserv ... ules53.pdf

Damned good idea!

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Surya » 19 Mar 2010 10:57

Err already mentioned and discussed in the past on BRF

Problem is it will be only valid near decent sized cities or metros.

But yes it should be started in those areas at least

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby ASPuar » 19 Mar 2010 11:21

If there are even 8 such air bases, that should be enough to cover the needs of the Reserve Air Force. We have 8 metro areas in the country, without a doubt.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby RayC » 19 Mar 2010 12:00

Image

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Aditya G » 19 Mar 2010 13:32

Surya wrote:Err already mentioned and discussed in the past on BRF

Problem is it will be only valid near decent sized cities or metros.

But yes it should be started in those areas at least


You need not have a full fledged air force station flying fighters. There are plenty of SAM sites that surround most of the big cities in the North for example.

Civil Pilots should be ready to depute full time to an air base or simulator facility for 2-3 weeks at a time given the nature of the job.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby RayC » 19 Mar 2010 13:39

BSF would be expected to fly transporters and helicopters alone.

Any airfield of appropriate runway will do. They don't have to have C 17s or ILs. Smaller transporters would suffice for them.

There are enough of disused runways that could be resuscitated for their use.

The Auxiliary concept is ideal!

There are enough of unemployed pilots around.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby K_Rohit » 19 Mar 2010 16:22

ASPuar wrote:Now that, is a REALLY good idea. Minimum fixed staff expense (theyre reservists, and paid only when on duty), a well trained auxiliary capability which can be mobilised in times of war/emergency/need. And, BEST OF ALL, as you have mentioned, there is already a statutory (legal) provision for it, under the Reserve and Auxiliary Air Forces Act, 1952. This act was not put into action, but it exists!

http://indianairforce.nic.in/RTI/Reserv ... ules53.pdf

Damned good idea!


Would this not go against our very notion of not using air power for CI purposes?

I am sure if we needed to we could get purpose-built COIN aircraft (slower, armoured cockpits, etc) or even gunships. But this may only prompt our "friendly" neighbours to send masses of AA missiles (like the US and Pakis did in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion).

All in all, may be counter productive

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby ASPuar » 19 Mar 2010 16:30

:-?

The CPOs are asking for air transport support to be able to fulfill anti naxal ops requirements. Noone is suggesting napalm in the morning!

We are not in Afghanistan, and these are policing operations, designed to protect our own people from the criminal menace of naxalism. Please do not compare to Soviet invasion in Afghanistan.

The people on the ground are our own people, and most of them are NOT naxals, even in affected ares.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby sum » 19 Mar 2010 17:06

I am sure if we needed to we could get purpose-built COIN aircraft (slower, armoured cockpits, etc) or even gunships. But this may only prompt our "friendly" neighbours to send masses of AA missiles (like the US and Pakis did in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion).

Ummm, we have actually used armed Mi-17s and Mi-25s in select operations in J&K.

Its not that we follow the US/Pakis and go on a bombing spree for every small issue. However, that doesnt mean that Air-power should never be used, esp in desperate situations where no other option remains.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby RayC » 19 Mar 2010 17:42

sum wrote:Ummm, we have actually used armed Mi-17s and Mi-25s in select operations in J&K.



Have we?

That is news to me.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby atreya » 19 Mar 2010 18:12

Aditya G wrote:
Jagan wrote:.... The fact that they couldnt muster enough resources to operate these six choppers fully is a comforting factor that despite their budget, they wont pose a threat by raising a paramilitary airforce :)....


My thoughts that we ought to raise a second-line air force that can fly older or second line airframes, with the main IAF to be more "elite" and focussed. This "air force" should allow for reservists and part-timers. Something like the Auxilliary Air Force or AF equivalent of the TA.

We could equip this force with Mi-17s, An-32s, Avros, 1-2 sqn of Hawks and perhaps MiG-21s.

American has an elaborate Air Nation Guard, Civil Air lift mechanism.

This is OT. Should we take this to the Military Aviation Thread?
I find the concept interesting, but I disagree with the part of using second line airframes and old aircraft. Aircrafts like Mig 21 are obsolete and they are in the process of being withdrawn from service completely. We cannot risk the lives of auxiliary pilots by making them fly machines which have be discarded by the IAF. What isn't good for the IAF, isn't good for Aux. IAF too, IMO. My last post here, as this is OT

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby sum » 19 Mar 2010 21:35

RayC wrote:
sum wrote:Ummm, we have actually used armed Mi-17s and Mi-25s in select operations in J&K.



Have we?

That is news to me.


RayC-sir,quoted from my all time favourite article on BRF monitor onlee:

CI Operations in Jammu & Kashmir

In addition to the Special Forces, units from the National Security Guards and the Marine Commandos also got involved. The Marine Commandos took positions in and around the Wullar lake cutting off infiltration routes and taking away the safe havens for militants. On occasion if the situation allowed heavier firepower was used. Trapped mujahid units have been pummeled by BMP cannons and machine gun fire from Mi-25 and Lancer helicopters. Mi-17 helicopters have been used to move QRTs as well as provide suppressive fire especially in the Doda region. The army, however, has been reluctant to use this on a everyday basis in order not to hand the propaganda victory to the mujahid.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Craig Alpert » 20 Mar 2010 06:30

BSF Asks BDR Not to Violate Status Quo

Is it me, or does it seem that lately BDR has grown a lot of balls by challenging BSF multiple times in the past couple of months.. One begs to differ, HOW BDR flexes it muscle, when it virtually stands no chance, if India for a change grows balls and teaches it a lesson!! Wonder if TSP is actively engaging BDR on it's payroll??

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Jagan » 20 Mar 2010 06:38

ASPuar wrote:If there are even 8 such air bases, that should be enough to cover the needs of the Reserve Air Force. We have 8 metro areas in the country, without a doubt.


Note that there was actually an Auxillary Airforce concentrated among major metros till the 62 war - when the decision was taken to merge them with the IAF.

The Aux AF idea in the 50s would have been cheaper to implement - unlike today where it may have to be limited to just the Airline and other charter pilots with flying experience.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Jagan » 20 Mar 2010 06:40

sum wrote:
RayC-sir,quoted from my all time favourite article on BRF monitor onlee:

CI Operations in Jammu & Kashmir

In addition to the Special Forces, units from the National Security Guards and the Marine Commandos also got involved. The Marine Commandos took positions in and around the Wullar lake cutting off infiltration routes and taking away the safe havens for militants. On occasion if the situation allowed heavier firepower was used. Trapped mujahid units have been pummeled by BMP cannons and machine gun fire from Mi-25 and Lancer helicopters. Mi-17 helicopters have been used to move QRTs as well as provide suppressive fire especially in the Doda region. The army, however, has been reluctant to use this on a everyday basis in order not to hand the propaganda victory to the mujahid.


First time I am reading this - and I should definitely ask Subra - whether Mi-25s were actually used in Kashmir at all ? Both 104 Sqn and 125 Sqn had some detailed websites out there for a while and neighter mentioned participating in COIN in detail. But wouldnt hurt to have a confirmation.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby RayC » 20 Mar 2010 06:57

Self deleted.

Double post.
Last edited by RayC on 20 Mar 2010 07:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby RayC » 20 Mar 2010 06:59

Jagan wrote:

First time I am reading this - and I should definitely ask Subra - whether Mi-25s were actually used in Kashmir at all ? Both 104 Sqn and 125 Sqn had some detailed websites out there for a while and neighter mentioned participating in COIN in detail. But wouldnt hurt to have a confirmation.


Jagan,

When the Lancers came in for trials in North Kashmir, I was there.

In fact the helicopter operational base was under our jurisdiction.

I could look out of my office and see the 'runway' and I have not seen any Mi 25 and they make a lot of noise anyway and so surely I would have heard and seen them.

Wullar was also under our jurisdiction. In my time, we did not find any such mention in our sitreps or in the int summaries that we used to get initiated by the Comd HQ.

I cannot speak about Doda since that was out of my beat. Again, no mention in the Int Summaries from Comd HQ.

I am intrigued and I sure would like to know more about it to update myself.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Surya » 20 Mar 2010 07:34

I believe the Mi 25 reference is from Manoj Joshi's book

and as mentioned very very rare

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Aditya G » 20 Mar 2010 13:40

I can recall two deployments of Hinds in J&K:

1. Post 1999 one stripped out Hind was flown to general Kargil area to check feasibility of operations

2. 2002 - Hinds were based out of Awantipur and Srinagar for guarding airbases from mujahid attack

Apart from BR there is no mention of "offensive" operations with gunships..... there are however documented incidents of Mi-17s being used... there was Op Sarpvinash and one operation in 2000.

RayC; have you witnessed/heard of offensive Mi-8/17 ops? Are they a regular feature?

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby RayC » 20 Mar 2010 13:49

Aditya G wrote:
RayC; have you witnessed/heard of offensive Mi-8/17 ops? Are they a regular feature?


No.

Not in my time.

Except against Tiger Hill.

If I meet Harry Lidder, I will ask him about this op and the use of gunships!

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Akshut » 21 Mar 2010 13:49

The BSF has raised a massive armed female contingent to guard the country’s borders, and plans to recruit another 35,000 women in the next four years.

Image
Image

A year ago, Basanti was a rebel. She had left the village almost as an outcast, defying parental and social objections, in response to an ad in the employment gazette asking for women recruits for the Border Security Force (BSF). "The common reaction was that I would be unable to do it physically. After all, a woman is weaker, frailer than a man. She is not expected to bear the hard training of a soldier," says Basanti, adding: "But I did it. After completion of a 36-week rigorous training, I am finally a constable with the BSF."

A total of 178 women recruits passed out with flying colours from the BSF's Kharkan training camp, 15 km from Hoshiarpur, as the first batch of the armed women contingent. Of these, 108 were from Punjab, 46 from West Bengal and 24 from Assam. While the women constables from Punjab have been deployed along the Indo-Pak border, those from West Bengal and Assam have been deployed along the Indo-Bangladesh border.

BSF's 36 Battalion, which has 50.52 km of the Indo-Bangladesh border within its Area of Responsibility (AOR), has to contend with problems like cross-border smuggling of drugs, arms and ammunition and cattle, along with illegal immigration and trafficking in women. "There was dire need of women BSF personnel as, otherwise, it was impossible to frisk or detain women without facing allegations of human rights violation," points out Shrabanti Karmakar (21), who, along with five other women constables, has been deployed with 36 Battalion at the Haridaspur border outpost.

Constable Putul Murmu (22), with 36 Battalion, says it was the Maoist problem in west Midnapore which had prompted her to join the force. "I hated to feel like a victim all the time. It is true that the area has seen no development over several decades but being anti-national cannot be the solution. Serving the nation is the right thing to do, and joining the force has also improved my economic status considerably with a starting salary of Rs 11,000," she adds.

All the women constables are fully trained for 12-hour shifts of guard and patrol duty along the borders. They are also trained in the handling and use of the 5.56 mm INSAS rifles, 9 mm carbine machine guns and 5.56 light machine guns.

Despite the obvious advantages, one reason why the armed forces are reluctant to recruit women is the possibility of them quitting after marriage or pregnancy. But Purnima Kundu (23) from the Ayodhya village of Bankura, dismisses this apprehension. "There is no question of my quitting ever. If that is a pre-condition to marriage, it will be preferable to remain unmarried," she says. The women constables already have a practical stand on this. "We will try to find boys within the BSF itself as they would be more understanding about our professional compulsions. The force also has a policy of posting couples together. That will bring down such problems significantly," adds Purnima.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby RayC » 21 Mar 2010 13:52

Could one give the statistics as to how many women are at the border?

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Akshut » 21 Mar 2010 15:10

^ From the same article

A total of 178 women recruits passed out with flying colours from the BSF's Kharkan training camp, 15 km from Hoshiarpur, as the first batch of the armed women contingent. Of these, 108 were from Punjab, 46 from West Bengal and 24 from Assam. While the women constables from Punjab have been deployed along the Indo-Pak border, those from West Bengal and Assam have been deployed along the Indo-Bangladesh border.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby rohitvats » 21 Mar 2010 18:31



Considering the deployment and operational requirement, BSF has a legitimate case of having women constables. The battalion deployed along IB in Punjab was neccessitated due to dealings with women in the area. They again should be of great use on the Indo-Bangla border and North-East.

But iirc, these mahila battalions are officered and commanded by men and not used for night guard duties. The 12 hours mentioned in the article above are pretty much of the day time duties.

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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby Craig Alpert » 22 Mar 2010 07:45

New bullet-proof jackets for paramilitary forces by June
The Indian government is set to procure around 60,000 lightweight bullet-proof jackets to be used by paramilitary troopers for counter-insurgency operations in the country.

A home ministry official said the testing procedure for the jackets has been completed and a report is expected by March end.

Earlier in January, the government had scrapped the technical evaluation report and ordered re-trial of the jackets following reports that their tests were fudged at a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) lab in Chandigarh.

'Now the retrial has been done and concluded. The report is expected by March end and the bullet proof jackets will be procured by June,' the official said. The retrial was conducted on fresh samples from suppliers.

The home ministry got several complaints against a DRDO joint director R.K. Verma who had conducted the previous tests after the government floated a tender for procuring nearly 60,000 bullet-proof jackets.

Verma was in the evaluation committee formed by the government. A CD purportedly containing conversations between Verma and one of the bidders was received by the ministry in which the official claimed that the approved vendors had rigged the tender to jack up prices. He also admitted in the CD that discrepancies existed during the tests.

The bidders were asked to submit fresh samples and the tender advisory and evaluation committees were ordered to conduct a retrial under the strict vigilance of the home ministry to ensure scrupulous adherence to the terms and conditions of the tender.

The bullet-proof jackets are for the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), National Security Guard (NSG), Central Industrial Security Force (CISF), Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP), Assam Rifles and Sashastra Seema Bal (SSB).

The CRPF, which is engaged in anti-Maoist operations in central India and counter-terrorism operations in Jammu and Kashmir, is the nodal agency to procure the jackets.


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Re: BSF,CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion.

Postby VinodTK » 25 Mar 2010 03:12

deleted.
Last edited by Rahul M on 28 Mar 2010 05:43, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: haraam source. do check before posting.


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