Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 21 Mar 2010 01:21

It's alvida Pakistan

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 21 Mar 2010 01:50

^^I think it may be well known here that "Khuda Hafiz" is some what haram in Pakiland in these days. The halal phrase is "Allah Haifz". (Some older people still use that phrase but Pakis want to associate themselves with more of Arabic culture. - Trend was forced around Zia's time)

See: Dawn's: Allah Hafiz to Khuda Hafiz

or
Allah Hafiz instead of Khuda Hafiz, that’s the worrying new mantra
or
ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVES Khuda Hafiz versus Allah Hafiz: a critique

BTW: The argument goes like this (see Scholarly discussion in the link given above)

...the Sunni Wahhabi Islam, is a purer form of Islam, something quite alien to the form of Islam that came to Kashmir, or even western India, through trade, the more inclusive way. God has 999 names in Islam. Shall we now say Rahim-Hafiz?”

(For those who don't know finer points of Urdu, "Khuda" (Persian -root) is generic name for God while "Allah" is Arabic word for specific form ..)

(And yes, the purer of the pure will really be rattled off if you say "khuda Hafiz" to their "Allah hafiz"

)

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Mar 2010 03:04

^^^^
Part 2 of article cited above:
http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/20 ... 200449.htm

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 21 Mar 2010 03:11

Lahore: Singapore Airlines (SIA) has closed its operations in Pakistan due to the deteriorating security condition in the country.

before singapore airlines says complete Khuda hafiz to pakistan and we forget what happened,
I think SIA got the smell that something big is going to happen in pakistan, maybe its associated with passenger jets,
maybe its too alarming but I see there is a desperate attempt in western media to portray l-e-t as the next aq,and the issue of a security advisory to all airports in India few months back...???

BTW SIA could still continue operations in pakiland because it does so in arab world ......
shutting down all the operations means something extreme happened or was about to happen...???

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Mar 2010 04:34

Hari Seldon wrote: Even if we now move 10 divisions of our army to the western border, they know for sure that Manmohan Singh will still speak the language of conciliation and friendship.
Which brfite wrote this??

When India elected the govt again TSP establishment has concluded that they are winning. Are the Indians able to understand this and think about this deeper.

Shekharji has an interesting observation that whenever Pakistan Daydreams that it is winning it goes all out to fight with India mainly for annexing Kashmir. What happens? When Pak appears winning do Pakistanis start demanding governance from establishment? Is attacking India a deflection tactic? What does India do all the while is what is worth noting. India allows Pakistan to gain the political upper hand. Like linking 'Af-Pak', Turkey shunting out India in recent talks, Krishna's recent loss of face in London on Afghanistan are reflctions of weak face of Foreign Policy Initiatives. We are perceived as a weak nation and so people take liberty in treating us th manner which suits them. Vir Sanghvi mentioned in one of his HT columns that Pakistan acts as unpredictable emotional nation and so countries are careful in handling it.Indians believe they influence Obama's key policies. Yet no change in US stand. Seems as India sleeps so do these citizens even when they play significant role

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Mar 2010 04:57

Remember the FATA delegation that returned to Pakistan rather than go through body scanners?
Four of the MNAs were on Capital Talk with Hamid Mir, that I had recorded and just got to watching.
Names were: Hafiz Rashid, Syed Akhunzada Chitan, Sajid Hussain Turi and Jawad Hussain.

Points of interest beyond what was posted here:

1. When they landed they were given two interpreters - Afghan Pashtuns. They say they demanded interpreters of Pakistani origin - if not Pathan, then Punjabi (to translate Urdu). They claim that one of the interpreters was removed, and two Urdu speakers of Pakistani origin were provided.

2. Sajid Hussain Turi says he loves Pakistan and Pakistan's enemies are his enemies, but since the government did nothing to open a road despite much sifarish, he would talk to Afghanistan about that.

3. Hafiz Rashid had the minority view point that India has nothing to do with the Pakistani Taliban. Chitan and Turi insisted that there is a lot of proof that India is involved. When Chitan was asked about the proof - he started on a ramble that when they landed in DC they found that the Indian lobby was very strong. In the State Department whereever they looked, there were Indians. When they went to the White House, they found that twenty of Obama's officials are Indians. These Indians are always trying to link Pakistan with terrorism.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally unrelated to the show - is Dhobhi Ghat an accepted slang for Washington?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Mar 2010 04:58

No change in Pakistan from the times of Ayub Khan

Strategic Analysis:
A Monthly Journal of the IDSA
http://www.idsa-india.org/
Apr-Jun 2002 (Vol. XXVI No. 2)
Pakistan’s Kashmir Policy: Objectives and Approaches
Smruti S. Pattanaik * , Research Officer, IDSA

Perception of India: Invoking a Fear of Unreasonable Power

Pakistan’s stand on Kashmir and its approach to the solution have been derived through widespread and well-crafted publicity about the perceived Indian intention. The image of India inPakistan has been profiled in such a manner that legitimacy to the Pakistan Army’s India policy is obtained automatically. To quote Ayub Khan, “India particularly has a deep pathological hatred for Muslims and her hostility to Pakistan stems from her refusal to see a Muslim power developing next door. By the same token, India will never tolerate a Muslim grouping near or far from her border.” 25
The Pakistani political elites have sustained an idea of a ‘hegemonic India’ by giving various references. For instance, some of the post-partition statements made by a few Indian leaders regarding the viability of the Pakistani state are interpreted as India’s intention to undo partition. India’s role in the creation of Bangladesh is portrayed as one such instance. Kashmir’s accession to India is interpreted as the latter not having accepted partition, which is often confused with the non-acceptance of the two-nation theory. Thus the image of India as an unreasonable power is nurtured by the political elites for their own institutional interests. Though fostering good neighbourly relations with India is underlined, the ideological differences are emphasised. Pakistan’s emphasis on socio-cultural differences to nurture its ideology itself is a setback to the bilateral ties. According to President Ayub Khan “Indian nationalism is based on Hinduism and Pakistan’s nationalism is based on Islam. The two philosophies are fundamentally different from each other. These two nationalisms cannot combine, but it should be possible for them to live side by side in peace and understanding. This is our foreign policy objective towards India.” 26 The hardliners interpret good neighbourly relations with India as equal to thousand years of slavery to the Indians. 27 Nevertheless, good neighbourliness is emphasised though later this got linked to the solution of Kashmir issue. Such kind of formulations have not only invoked a sense of mistrust about India but also have retarded generation of goodwill to strengthen confidence in bilateral relations. Moreover, the cultivated policy of portraying India as an unreasonable power has created a kind of perception where many Pakistanis feel that a ‘fair solution’ to the Kashmir issue cannot be expected. This provides the government with legitimacy to pursue policy options other than negotiation with India.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 21 Mar 2010 05:04

shiv wrote:If thread consensus is that it is bad to ally with the US,in what way have Pakistan, Japan, South Korea and even China suffered by bandwagoning ad forming some sort of anti-someone else-alliance with the US?

As far as I can tell it sounds like allying with the US is the way to development (Japan, China, SoKo) and "shatruvinaash-ment" (Pakhanastaan).

In below post, when I say "India" or "we", note that I am saying "India or we as one entity". This post may look highly critical of our state, don't be offended. Unfortunately, in comparison with other entities, it is bad.

Talking about general resistance from folks in India.. IMO, the reason most advocate distance from US is actually because of lack of confidence in our own establishment and bureaucracy to deal with slick and savvy US. We feel that power-be are easily swayed and too nice to play the game. Corruption in every nook and corner doesn't help the confidence either.

At a higher level, my two paise.
(1) Seemingly in unison
The countries you mention, either by nature or by force, seem monolithic to outsiders compared to India. The establishment or people themselves ensure that they act as one entity for "all effective purposes" to external players.
---> SoKo (and Taiwan) has paranoia and crazy neighbor on the side to keep everybody together.
---> Japan had a few nukes fall on it, and people didn't have a choice but come out together.
---> China has PRC to shoot anybody who disagrees
---> TSP is by a combination of mulla-ISI-Army complex. ISI/PA spread like cancer and took over the country to ensure it is one.

No matter what the source of this strength, it keeps everybody facing one direction more or less.

For India, the very diversity (languages/regional perspectives/priorities/affinities) that we cherish and bandy about is also our bane. Our diversity/free-thought/localized power struggles makes us so pre-occupied with internal struggles that we can't agree on what is important for us as a nation. There isn't one rallying point to bring the whole nation together with respect to outsiders.

We haven't figured out a way to convert internal-diversity into exterior-strength in international arena.

(2) Charter for Nation
- TSP's establishment says Allah rules. Abdul nods. ISI says India is invading and PA/ISI is the Saviour. Abduls nod. Can Indians agree on who the enemies are?
- PRC says our civilization is thousands of years old and claims any part of the land that was once part of mythical Chinese empire. Chinese say more power to you. Indian PM thinks Ram Sethu is BS and there are ton of us asking why are we wasting money on Siachin.
- SoKo (and Taiwan) fights for freedom from "clear enemy" (who is also US's enemy) and wonderful high-tech economy. Neither of them apply for India.
- After WW-II, their charter was pretty clear.

Each of them have a clear list of goodies they want (or aspire) and they have internal political consensus to get that.

"We" have no clarity on "what Pakistan is to us" or "what China is to us" or even "what US is to us". Its utter chaos. For every rational voice there are 5 emotional and rhetoric filled voices in the airwaves. "We" cannot make our mind on what we want to do in 10 years. "We" do not know what our goals are in the neighborhood. Basically, there is no unified vision.

Not to say it was all gloom and doom. The miracle that we see of India's success is IMO because of one "unified goal" of middle and lower classes from all over the nation : to enable a better life for the offsprings (next generation). Most successes we see in terms of human resource or ex-pat remittances is a byproduct of this hunger. The same may eventually force a charter for India, don't know when.

If we do manage to converge on such a goal, then becoming a chamcha or a wingman of somebody else, would probably be a lot more acceptable for the sake of the goal.

(3) What can they offer and do they know that?.
---> SoKo (and Taiwan) provide US with a way to project force far away from home. They both know it. India's pride and communist parts will never allow this.
---> Japan (can't put my finger, sorry)
---> China is the ONLY channel to talk with NoKo and now, looks like even with Iran to some extent. China is the only country that has the money US wants to borrow. China's unscrupulous relations with all kinds of regimes and trade practices may not be moral, but makes them a valuable to US. China knows it. India is busy taking moral stands and stealing from each other in terms of grand real estate scams and kickbacks.
---> TSP is in a geographically very unique advantage. Iran is a no-go and India has no connection to CAR. So Pakistan is the only keeper of the gate, even better, it is a corrupt keeper of the gate. TSP knows it. What can India possibly offer that Pakistan and China (which are invaluable) cannot!!

Having direct access to Afghanistan can help, but nobody is going to invite us to just build a road from J&K to Afghanistan. US could have used our help in Afghanistan, but oh.. can we do that. We can't offer a base (they have Diego Garcia!). So to me, India did not invest in earning these bargaining chips that US might need. We are content with US's statements that India is an important player (Thank god for US's generocity), while others actually use their bargaining chips for their needs.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Mar 2010 06:17

a_kumar wrote:
"We" have no clarity on "what Pakistan is to us" or "what China is to us" or even "what US is to us". Its utter chaos. For every rational voice there are 5 emotional and rhetoric filled voices in the airwaves. "We" cannot make our mind on what we want to do in 10 years. "We" do not know what our goals are in the neighborhood. Basically, there is no unified vision.

National interest has never been "created" or allowed to be developed by the ruling elite for a long time.
All nations create this even if it is absent by decades of consensus building. India has to do it too.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 21 Mar 2010 06:18

Amber G. wrote: (For those who don't know finer points of Urdu, "Khuda" (Persian -root) is generic name for God while "Allah" is Arabic word for specific form ..)

For that matter, even Allah is a generic Arab term for god which was used by ROP...it predates ROP...witness the ongoing controversy in Malaysia over Christians using that word to describe 'god' and ROP activists claiming monopoly over it...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Mar 2010 06:34

Amber G. wrote:
(For those who don't know finer points of Urdu, "Khuda" (Persian -root) is generic name for God while "Allah" is Arabic word for specific form ..)

I have heard (from a friend who is a keen observer of these things) that the name "khuda" has a particular objection in Pakistan and is being replaced by Allah as in "Allah hafiz" because - you won't believe this.. the word "khuda" apparently has roots in "khud" - or oneself - a concept that corresponds very closely to finding God within oneself as in aham Brahmasmi

The Persians who were a proud nation resented the Arab conquest and developed many sneaky ways of cocking a snook at what came from Arabia despite accepting what Arabia forced on them. This aparently reflects in the innuendo and double meanings in Persian literature.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 21 Mar 2010 06:47

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 069205.ece

I’ve met ordinary people who say that they’d even welcome Israel or India if they helped us get rid of these Arabs and their friends.”

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 Mar 2010 07:06

US scholar urges Pakistan and India to go nuclear-free

Dr Michael Krepon, co-Founder and former president of the Stimson Centre, Washington, while expressing happiness over the resumption of talks between Islamabad and New Delhi, has asked China, India and Pakistan to rely on defence without nuclear weapons.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Mar 2010 07:30

Love this man's sense of humor,irony and satire

I propose an Article 370 type provision in the constitution of Pakistan to satisfy the Baloch. There should be a bar on people from other provinces on voting or buying property in Balochistan for a period of at least 25 years.These protections are a great source of moral legitimacy for the Indians. The total population of the Indian Kashmir is less than 11 million according to the census of 2001, out of which just 67 percent is Muslim. It was, theoretically, possible for the Indians to ‘solve’ the Kashmir problem once and for all by just flooding in just 3-4 million Indians from the rest of India, which would effectively make Muslims a minority in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir. India could have easily taken a leaf from its strategic ally Israel, which has been able to successfully decimate the Palestinian cause by building settlements on the Palestinian territories and then enlarging them in the name of ‘natural growth’. But, despite all the cost it has had to suffer at the hands of insurgency in Kashmir and the pressure by the Hindu rightwing, India did not touch Article 370 or amend it in a way to extend the Indian citizenship laws into the state of Jammu and Kashmir.

We Pakistanis can take a great cue from the Indians. Demographically, Balochistan is the smallest province of Pakistan with a population of less than seven million according to the 1998 census. Of these, only a little more than 50 percent are Baloch.

VIEW: An Article 370 for Balochistan —Riaz Shahid

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 21 Mar 2010 07:38

Teflon tiger By Irfan Husain

Just as worrying is Nawaz Sharif’s subservience to the Saudi royal family. They are the ones who scooped him out of Musharraf’s jail, and granted him a luxurious exile. And it was they who determined when he would re-enter Pakistani politics. Clearly, they calculated that without him in the arena, Benazir Bhutto’s PPP could well sweep the polls in 2008.

Let us not forget that much of the Wahabi/Salafi violence we are witnessing today is a gift of the House of Saud. The last thing we need to have is their agent in charge of Pakistan.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Mar 2010 07:50

Misleading assumptions

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... ptions-130

There is need, therefore, to revisit some of the assumptions that have become part of the conventional wisdom in some quarters. For the present let me offer some thoughts on three such assumptions: ... and that Pakistan cannot survive as a functional state without foreign aid and assistance. Each of these assumptions is flawed.

...

Third, a fairly popular assumption is that Pakistan, for the present, needs foreign aid and assistance to survive as a functional state. While foreign aid and assistance does enable our rulers to lead a life of cheerful indolence and carefree extravagance, the presumption of its indispensability presents a bit of a puzzle in elementary arithmetic.

The country that is not supposed to be able to survive without foreign aid has: sustained an economic loss of more than $35bn during the last eight years due to a war against the militants, that works out to an annual average of $4.5bn, and is about two-thirds of our present foreign debt of $54bn; incurred an expenditure of $3.5bn under the Coalition Support Fund in 2008 and 2009, out of which only $897m has been reimbursed so far; received only Rs20bn out of Rs49bn pledged for IDPs, about Rs5bn out of Rs47bn pledged by the Friends of Democratic Pakistan in Tokyo, and nothing under the Kerry-Lugar Act. Despite these losses, delays and refusals, the Pakistani government has met all its normal and enhanced obligations, and also managed to: overcome the disasters caused by two earthquakes one in 2005 and the other in 2008; organise an orderly dispersal and subsequent rehabilitation of more than 2.5 million IDPs from Swat; commit about $4bn for the purchase of ships, planes and other equipments for the armed forces.

Besides, the federal and provincial governments have never been short of cash to cater to the determined pursuit of happiness by persons who matter and their hangers-on, including, for example, an annual budget of more than Rs1bn for the foreign trips of the prime minister alone.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Mar 2010 07:55

N-plants to figure in talks, says Patterson

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... terson-130

Pakistan’s request for nuclear power plants may come up for discussion during the US-Pakistan strategic dialogue, which begins in Washington on March 24.

The indications came from two senior US officials, ambassadors Richard Holbrooke and Anne W. Patterson.

Ambassador Patterson, the US envoy in Islamabad, told a Los Angeles-based Pakistani newspaper: “We are beginning to have a discussion with the Pakistan government” on the country’s desire to tap nuclear energy. “We are going to have working level talks” on the issue in Washington this month.

She told the Pakistan Link newspaper that earlier America’s “non-proliferation concerns were quite severe” but attitudes in Washington were changing. “I think we are beginning to pass those and this is a scenario that we are going to explore,” she added.

Mr Holbrooke, the US special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, was less categorical but what he said at a briefing on Friday on the US-Pakistan strategic talks conveyed a similar message.

“While addressing Pakistan’s energy needs, are you considering helping them establish nuclear power plants to meet their energy needs?” he was asked.

A transcript released by the State Department on Saturday quoted Mr Holbrooke as saying: “We have a very broad and complex agenda in these talks, and this is the first strategic dialogue ever at this level, and the first of this administration. And we’re going to listen carefully to whatever the Pakistanis say.”

The response marks the first time a US official did not reject the Pakistani request outright.On all previous occasions, US officials insisted that their agreement for supplying nuclear power plants to India was exclusive to New Delhi and could not be offered to another country.

...

Last month, a US scholar wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal backing Pakistan’s demand that the US should negotiate a nuclear deal with Pakistan, as it did with India.

“More so than conventional weapons or large sums of cash, a conditions-based civilian nuclear deal may be able to diminish Pakistani fears of US intentions while allowing Washington to leverage these gains for greater Pakistani cooperation on nuclear proliferation and terrorism,” wrote C. Christine Fair, an assistant professor at Georgetown University.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Mar 2010 07:59

Acharya wrote:No change in Pakistan from the times of Ayub Khan

http://www.idsa-india.org/
Apr-Jun 2002 (Vol. XXVI No. 2)
Pakistan’s Kashmir Policy: Objectives and Approaches
Smruti S. Pattanaik * , Research Officer, IDSA
Perception of India: Invoking a Fear of Unreasonable Power

For instance, some of the post-partition statements made by a few Indian leaders regarding the viability of the Pakistani state are interpreted as India’s intention to undo partition.

That is very true.

Many Pakistanis tend to feel that it is the insecurity of a small nation juxtaposed to a big “adversarial” one which is still ir-reconciled to its creation and which is actively working to destabilize the nation, is entertaining hopes of re-establishing an ‘Akhand Bharat’ (Greater India) encompassing Pakistan within its fold and with whom several wars have been fought and a constantly smouldering and occasionally heightening tension lingers. Though such a concept of ‘Akhand Bharat’ was spoken of by a few sporadically, it never gained currency in India.

Of course many Indian leaders during the nascent and intoxicating days of independence, felt that Pakistan may not be able to survive as an entity for too long. For example, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru said : "I doubt very much if it (Pakistan) can survive at all. Financially it will be completely bankrupt. Kashmir's future is of the utmost intimate personal significance. On no account do I want Kashmir to become a kind of colony of foreign interests. I fear Pakistan is likely to become that if it survives at all." he wrote to Sheikh Abdullah on October 10, 1947 (Selected Works of Jawaharlal Nehru; Second Series; Volume 4; Page 269). These prescient statements were twisted as India's efforts at active destabilization of Pakistan.

Moreover, there was no clear idea, at the time of Partition, of the future relationship between these two newly created countries. People had relatives and assets across the borders, including Mohammed Ali Jinnah. Pakistani litterateurs like Faiz Ahmed Faiz, Saadat Hasan Manto or Mohammad Saeed have captured the confusion of division and the ambiguity thereon. One of the prominent Muslim League politicians of that time, Ghulam Hussain was not only completely against Pakistan but also said that Jinnah himself was not completely convinced about that.

Opinions and assessments expressed during this time of great confusion could not be taken as deterministic foreign policies of a nation. No doubt, some leaders, including Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, thought that the partition was only temporary and Pakistan would be re-united with India. Nehru said, "The plan of Partition offered a way out and we took it. […] We expected that Partition would be temporary, that Pakistan was bound to come back to us.”

However, Pakistani leaders mischievously propagated the idea that India was actively working to destabilize their nation and re-absorb it. The various disastrous events within Pakistan itself lent credence to such an Indian assessment. In a country and in an environment that fostered paranoia, conspiracy theories have consistently found a great favour among the masses.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Mar 2010 08:01

Pak-US mistrust still exists: CIA chief

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=27891

CIA Chief Leon Panetta has said that there was still mistrust between the US and Pakistan and would take time to go away. He also said that the arrest of Taliban leaders, including Mulla Baradar, has had an impact on the ongoing reconciliation process with the Taliban, but appeared unsure whether the impact was good or bad.

...

Responding to a question about the arrests, Panetta said: “Yes the arrests have had an impact.” When asked whether the impact was negative or positive, he said: “We are trying to work it out.”

Commenting on the relations between Pakistani security forces and the US, Panetta said they were “currently very good”. He said during the last few months, Pakistani security forces have achieved great successes against terrorists.

When asked why despite such public appreciation of Pakistani forces, the US newspapers continued to publish negative stories and expressing reservations about Pakistani forces while quoting ‘anonymous US sources, which in Pakistan is viewed as a private mistrust on part of US officials, Panetta replied: “Yes there is still a mistrust and it will take some time before it goes away.”

...

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 21 Mar 2010 08:06

abhishek_sharma wrote:B. Raman: HEADLEY: FROM OBAMA WITH LOVE

http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... -love.html

The "Hindu". the other daily of no credibility, has come out with its own gem. Says N.Ram, the precious son of the Tamil soil and our own unique contribution to the world of Indian journalism : " Barring death penalty enthusiasts, no one has any reason to bemoan the Plea Agreement".

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Mar 2010 08:14

Pakistani exports may rise to $100bn in 15 years: TDAP CEO

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=230146

Syed Mohibullah Shah, Trade Development Authority of Pakistan (TDAP) Chief Executive Officer, has said Pakistan could get export target of $100 billion in the next 15 years if its potential was fully utilized.

...

He said Pakistan was focusing on only five products and five marketing countries but if potential in other products was fully explored it could achieve growth target of 20 percent every year. During the last 60 years export growth has remained around 10 percent each year, he added.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Mar 2010 08:15

abhishek_sharma wrote:N-plants to figure in talks, says Patterson
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... terson-130
Last month, a US scholar wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal backing Pakistan’s demand that the US should negotiate a nuclear deal with Pakistan, as it did with India.

“More so than conventional weapons or large sums of cash, a conditions-based civilian nuclear deal may be able to diminish Pakistani fears of US intentions while allowing Washington to leverage these gains for greater Pakistani cooperation on nuclear proliferation and terrorism,” wrote C. Christine Fair, an assistant professor at Georgetown University.

It is these 'Pakistani fears' that Pakistan is able to successfully project consistently and get its wishes met.

It was the fear of the Hindus dominating the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent, it was the fear of the Russians seeking the warm waters of the Arabian Sea, it was the fear of the huge Hindu neighbour overwhelming Pakistan with the help of the Soviet Union, it was (and continues to be once again) the fear of a pincer attack by India and Afghanistan on Pakistan, it is the fear of the upper riparian India not letting waters, it was the fear of US leaving Pakistan in the lurch, it was the fear of US tilting to India, it was the fear of Indian Army's capabilities and not its intentions, it is the fear of the fast-growing Indian economy etc. etc. The list is endless.

The Americans continue to think that pandering to these 'fears' will buy them security and cooperation from Pakistan without realizing that it is a bottomless pit and it is having the exact opposite as far as security went. They have a chance to disabuse Pakistan of its imaginary fears and begin a new chapter that will do good not only to this region and the US-Pakistan relationship but the world.

But, they will let the chance pass as usual and sign a 'nuke deal' with one of the greatest proliferators seen so far. The Americans are caught in a vice. They know that their influence all over the world is falling rapidly. In Pakistan, the energy crisis (due entirely to 'no planning' at all by the Pakistanis themselves) is creating a severe situation and as the summer approaches it will only get worse. The Americans are the fall guys for the smart Alec Pakistani leaders. They have depicted the India-US deal and the corresponding lack of a similar Pakistan-US nuclear deal as the reason for the energy crisis. The Americans must be seen to be doing something.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Mar 2010 08:29

Whose agenda?

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=230262

At this point differing agendas come into view. The UN, working with the Afghan government, had been pursuing dialogue with the Taliban. There is an upcoming jirga at which it was expected that Baradar would have a significant role. This is not the agenda that the Americans are pursuing. Their perspective is that they have the Taliban on the back foot and that now is the time for fighting and not talking. It is inconceivable that the Americans and we were unaware of the back-channel communications between the Taliban and the UN; and hence the question of whose agenda has primacy comes into focus. America has long pressured us to 'do more'. Thus, we cooperate with America in the arrest of members of the Quetta Shura, almost certainly in the knowledge that by doing so a nascent peace process will get stalled, if not killed off entirely. Is this in our best interests? It is if it is added to the 'credit side' by the Americans who daily tot up the trust deficit, it isn't if we are to look to our own future relationship with the Afghan government and our part in any emerging peace in Afghanistan. The Americans will be gone in five years at most. Pakistan and Afghanistan will still be neighbours a century from now. Whose agenda do we really need to prioritise, and when do our own needs and interests assume primacy?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Mar 2010 08:36

Over the top

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=230269

As institutions and all that we once held in great esteem fall around us like ninepins in a bowling alley where the players have gone berserk, very few of us now have the luxury of taking a step back and simply evaluating our position.

...

Nations are often at crossroads in their journeys. We seem to be permanently parked here.

...

But a random visit to the internet and you receive a resounding slap in the face from companies, organisations, airlines, tour operators – the list is long. Millions are on the internet selling goods, services of every kind and offering popcorn machines to miracle anti-ageing creams, but just about most of them draw the line when doing business with Pakistan and when that happens, all you feel is despair and despondency.

Are we that low in the real world that our credit cards are not acceptable and hundreds – no thousands have no system in place that can transact any kind of business with us? How much and at what level have we, Pakistanis, misused and abused the system to an extent where our country's very name raises virus alerts? Are our leaders even remotely aware of this global insult that hits us daily in the face? Eighty per cent pictures on the internet are of naked women which is why sex-starved Pakistan is among the top frequenters of the global ***** sites – some achievement that and what an image it must conjure up when such a statistic pops up, I leave to your wild imagination – but our credit is no good most places.

Last week, I spent the better part of my few spare hours getting up groggily at times to sit at the computer and visit an art site I had encountered a few years ago. The site had attracted me because it sold art, some of it beautifully produced or reproduced, at pretty reasonable prices even with our currency worth just a few pebbles. However, trying to navigate and select the right piece and compare it with hundreds of others even in the same genre was no easy matter. For hours I pored over pictures – abstract, landscapes, portraits, still life and so on and so on. Tediously I selected and cancelled and selected my choice of pictures, saving them in my internet shopping cart, discovering only later that mine had no wheels so to speak.

My final bill came to some US$253 and having done all I could and reasonably satisfied that this was really worthwhile, I got into line to pay and have the pictures shipped to me. Tediously I filled out the payment process application and then wham it hit me. Pakistan was simply not on the list of countries they shipped goods to. The rest of the world was. We simply did not exist for this huge global art warehouse. Thus one's credit card was not acceptable currency!

But if our absence from this site was depressing, even more heart-breaking were the countries which were on it – some I had vaguely heard of and there were some names, I kid you not, I had not heard of and certainly couldn't place. There was Afghanistan shining loud and clear, its cyber orders accepted and processed without any fuss. I could not help thinking that here was a 'country' in its most loose form, where every kind of chaos and lawlessness reigns supreme, where everyone is locked in battle with everyone for a piece of a largely God forsaken terrain and where people die like flies and no one can tell you on a given day exactly what the hell is going on.

Then there is Pakistan. This land, the crumbling but still standing citadel of Islam, the third most populous Muslim country, where a democratic government is still in place after two years, where there still is a decent infrastructure, where roads and railway lines and air links make it possible to move along its considerable size --- most of its 796,000 sq km and where over 169 million people live and work. But our credit lines are dodgy and not acceptable. How's that for a reality check? And that brought me back to square one. What level of deceit and fraud is perpetuated on a nationwide scale for a considerable length of time to force those dealing with us to drop down the shutters? How many Pakistanis are committing credit card fraud? Are there any numbers? Surely it must run in the thousands for a European art warehouse to say no. Surely.

Eventually I asked a friend in New York to pay with his credit card and instead of shipping the prints to me, get them instead and some day send them over. Sometime this year, they will arrive but through a circuitous route. And it is not this particular warehouse. When I emailed them – yes they do take our emails, and complained angrily and bitterly recounting the names of the countries that were on their 'good to go' list whereas my country was not, they apologised and said that they too regretted the fact, but company policy forbade them to do business with Pakistan. They spared me the reasons but anyone could have guessed. And political it was not. This is a commercial warehouse doing good business with the world. They would be crazy to turn away customers. And it is the same – you find tour operators in the world and plan everything only to find out nearly at the end that your credit card –Visa, Amex, Master Card – whatever, is not kosher. Budget airlines refuse to entertain you. And as you travel down the list of those who are good enough, your blood begins to boil.

Who can we blame but ourselves for having brought such shame and ruin to our once good name? None of our leaders, provincial or national and none of our starched with bank notes bureaucracy and gents of the armed forces, have ever brought this up. It certainly is not on their list of priorities and if this is not a case of our fortunes slipping down permanently, what else is? There are many crooks in Pakistan as indeed there are in other lands, too, but where are the few good people we so badly need and who will set the fallen tables upright again? I don't see that particular miracle descending on us soon.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Mar 2010 08:47

Ex-ISI official says he arranged 5 meetings between Nawaz, Osama

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg1_6

Former Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) official Khalid Khawaja has claimed that he arranged five meetings in the past between former prime minister Nawaz Sharif and al Qaeda chief Osama Bin Laden on separate occasions.

In a recent interview with a private TV channel, Khawaja said Nawaz asked the al Qaeda chief to provide financial support for “development projects”.

“I still remember that Osama provided me funds that I handed over to then Punjab chief minister Nawaz to topple Benazir Bhutto’s government,” said Khawaja, adding that Nawaz met Osama thrice in Saudi Arabia alone. “Nawaz insisted that I arrange a direct meeting with Osama, which I did in Saudi Arabia,” he said. “Nawaz was looking for a Rs 500 million grant from Osama. Although Osama provided a comparatively smaller sum ... he secured for Nawaz a meeting with the Saudi royal family.”

The former ISI official also claimed that Nawaz had met leaders of Islamic movements around the world.

...

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 21 Mar 2010 09:02

SSridhar wrote:[quote=
Last month, a US scholar wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal backing Pakistan’s demand that the US should negotiate a nuclear deal with Pakistan, as it did with India.

“More so than conventional weapons or large sums of cash, a conditions-based civilian nuclear deal may be able to diminish Pakistani fears of US intentions while allowing Washington to leverage these gains for greater Pakistani cooperation on nuclear proliferation and terrorism,” wrote C. Christine Fair, an assistant professor at Georgetown University.
It is these 'Pakistani fears' that Pakistan is able to successfully project consistently and get its wishes met.

The Americans continue to think that pandering to these 'fears' will buy them security and cooperation from Pakistan without realizing that it is a bottomless pit ...... They have depicted the India-US deal and the corresponding lack of a similar Pakistan-US nuclear deal as the reason for the energy crisis. The Americans must be seen to be doing something.

Sridhar,
I keep on wondering what makes the Pacquis so brazen, outright liars, beggars and shameless? I keep on wondering where did this brazenness creep into the Sanatan thought on this land? Is it that Sanatan somehow did not give any elbow space to Liers, Crooks, Cheats and unruly people with the moral overtones? Did clubbing falsehood, Cheating, Self first and obfuscation with being immoral and thus not a way for attaining GYAN of the supreme being, pushed a part of Indic people into this paki mindset.

Could we accommodate them by someway as one more way of living life. As of now this Whore that is Pak-is-satan is more of a mindset as someone pointed out. Can the future leaders of this civilisation not accord them respect as being the Official Liars & Cheats and utilise their services better, just in case the Indic lands return to the fold of Dharma. This will serve their H&D issues also. Finally they will get some recognition of their worth.

Since there are many ways of life, let this be one the many on this land. All I hear is that so and so wife beater, paedophile, rapist, drug dealer is a born again religious man and next I see him is with a long beard. Why this paki mindset is becoming the refuse of the scum of civilsation? However, scum too has it's own usages.

Till then ... Jai Whore

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Mar 2010 09:02

Masters, not friends —Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_4

The countries that survive on arms, hand-outs, cheap oil and aid from other countries for their survival cannot possibly be defiant or discourteous to those on whose largesse they depend

...

The demeanour of our rulers and politicians during interaction with the West and Gulf rulers is incongruous to the intercourse of equals and is analogous to supplications of a slave-serf to the overlord. The politicians and rulers who are indebted to countries or their rulers cannot, I repeat cannot, resist even the most preposterous demands that compromise sovereignty of the state or dignity of the people.

The obsequious tone and tenor adopted by the rulers and politicians emboldens even the petty emissary to dictate and reprimand them. The countries that survive on arms, hand-outs, cheap oil and aid from other countries for their survival cannot possibly be defiant or discourteous to those on whose largesse they depend.

Our country’s relationship with the US has always been of gravest concern. The objections and opposition to the current status of relationship is vehement and vociferous. The common man, though occupied mainly in eking out a living, expresses his resentment and justifiably so because he neither benefits nor is supposed to benefit from it. It is the political class that benefits in the form of the NRO deals, kickbacks and grants; ironically it is they who whine and gripe the most about the loss of sovereignty when the drones carry out the extra-judicial killings of militants along with heavy collateral damage. This sheer hypocrisy is just to hoodwink the people.

The influential Forbes magazine dubbed the US envoy here as the “ambassador to Pakistan’s economy” because she considers herself well within her rights when she comments on cancellation of deals or lectures on how best we run our economy. She, it seems, is managing the country and why should she not? This country survives on dole from the US.

Holbrooke feels no compunction when acting as a spokesperson for the army and saying, “The army in Pakistan is not interested in politics.” He has been insensitive and tactless time and again but then ‘one who pays the piper calls the tune’, so who can fault him? During his January visit he was upset with the criticism by the politicians and the media. He arrogantly said that an “acknowledgement of the US role would help get more aid for Pakistan”.

To show courtesy to visitors is the right thing but there has to be some veneer of dignity in it. You cannot go down to the level where it hurts even your detractors. The presidents here visit the shikar-camp of the UAE president in Cholistan that seems more like a district commissioner visiting the governor’s camp. The Gulf sheiks, apart from having pet politicians and rulers here, are also famous for endangering the endangered Houbara bustards and exploiting child jockeys.

...

The title of Ayub Khan’s book, Friends Not Masters stank of crass hypocrisy even then as U-2 planes flew from Peshawar until Nikita Khrushchev threatened to bomb the place. The claims now of being equal partners in the ‘war on terror’ are even more crassly hypocritical. The drone attacks are criticised when drones are flown from bases here with tacit consent of all.

The relationship always was and will remain that of ‘Masters, not friends’ for the foreseeable future because dignity comes at a price. It demands sacrifices. Those who cannot do without the foreign accounts, mansions, Armani suits, Patek Philippe watches and bullet-proof Mercedes cannot be expected to break the begging bowl. The rulers here stay in the Sultan of Brunei suite at Dorchester Hotel in London, which costs £ 6,500 per night, while here there are scuffles and fist fights outside the utility stores for sugar and flour.

Only under the leadership of an ascetic like sage and statesman, Ho Chi Minh, could the Vietnamese achieve what they achieved. He lived in a small house in the sprawling grounds of colonial mansion for the French governor. Leadership truly matters when nations have to transcend the unattainable.

It is a long and difficult haul for dependent countries towards gaining a more respectable position in the equation of relationships with donor (read master) countries, especially when there is not only a complete lack of will for change but also an abject submissiveness to the philosophy of living on dole. With these state of affairs it is wishful thinking to presume that we are sovereign or will ever achieve that cherished and dignified status.

Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur has an association with the Baloch rights movement going back to the early 1970s. He can be contacted at mmatalpur@gmail.com

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 21 Mar 2010 09:29

abhishek_sharma wrote:N-plants to figure in talks, says Patterson

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... terson-130

Pakistan’s request for nuclear power plants may come up for discussion during the US-Pakistan strategic dialogue, which begins in Washington on March 24.

You know what, this is the right time GoI to say 'pakistan should get civil n-deal...'.

Suddenly all conspiracy theorists will start apposing n-deal

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Mar 2010 09:32

Just writing to thank those who responded to my question below.

shiv wrote:If thread consensus is that it is bad to ally with the US,in what way have Pakistan, Japan, South Korea and even China suffered by bandwagoning and forming some sort of anti-someone else-alliance with the US?

As far as I can tell it sounds like allying with the US is the way to development (Japan, China, SoKo) and "shatruvinaash-ment" (Pakhanastaan).

My response is OT for this thread and is posted here (Indo-US thread)
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 84#p842184

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Mar 2010 09:40

="abhishek_sharma"]Over the top

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=230269

If i can tell a story to this Paki who is surprised at Afghanistan on the credit list but not Pakhanaland. Long before 47, a Pathan came to take loan from a moneylender in Lahore. Pathan asked for few thousand and gave his words as collateral. A Punjabi Muslaman who witness this deal thought its so easy to dupe the Moneylender and next day came up with the request for loan. The lender ask for his house, Begum and Bacches as collateral. Punjabi Musalman was baffled at the demand ande asked the lender how come you did not ask same from the Pathan yesterday and the wise "baniya" lender smiled and said you Pakjabi fool , he was Pathan , will keep his words so no collateral required and you Punjabi Muslaman dont know your father , will sell your mother for penny and wiffe for damri , how can you think you are equal to a Pathan in honor.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Mar 2010 09:45

Gerard wrote:US scholar urges Pakistan and India to go nuclear-free
Dr Michael Krepon, co-Founder and former president of the Stimson Centre, Washington, while expressing happiness over the resumption of talks between Islamabad and New Delhi, has asked China, India and Pakistan to rely on defence without nuclear weapons.

Has this fellow become Indian or what? He sounds like an Indian telling the US (or Pakistan) "You must eschew violence"

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 21 Mar 2010 09:46

krisna wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:B. Raman: HEADLEY: FROM OBAMA WITH LOVE

http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... -love.html

The "Hindu". the other daily of no credibility, has come out with its own gem. Says N.Ram, the precious son of the Tamil soil and our own unique contribution to the world of Indian journalism : " Barring death penalty enthusiasts, no one has any reason to bemoan the Plea Agreement".

How can he say this? There are numerous Stalinist mass murderers, Nandigram rapist goons, Maoist eye-gougers, Beijing puppets, fake intellectuals, fake historians and assorted 'human-rights' activists and leftists that would strongly disagree..

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Mar 2010 09:52

Headley’s right to silence

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 21 Mar 2010 09:59

A_Gupta wrote:Nadeem Paracha hits a sixer!

In my opinion, this may qualify for one of the permanent links in the first post of this thread, of "Know Your Pakistan".

He even points out Madrasa math (even though this is the manifesto of the young, urban, middle-class Pakistani:
20. As Zardari loots and pillages Pakistan via the nefarious use of his handle bar moustache and cheery demeanour, we have to appreciate how our Taliban investment is saving our economy by killing thousands of our citizens and costing billions of dollars in damages and lost investment and trade opportunities. We are a financially and arithmetically gifted segment of society that can expand US $66 million to $1,500 million if it means that we can lynch Zardari (and free Aafia).

8. We are against feudalism unless the feudals in question do not support the PPP and allow us to rape the ecology of Sindh and the Punjab on our weekend hunting trips. Some crates of mangoes from their farms also help.

12. Lately, we have been reading some Chomsky, Klein and Zinn (all five articles) and appreciate how these believing Muslims provide us with the intellectual ammo on exposing how the perfidious Jews conspire to rule the world.

18. We, the members of civil society, are essentially a liberal lot who are imbued with socialist values. Our ability to engage in massive socialising (through Facebook) makes us socialist in the true sense of the word. Lately, we have also dabbled in Marxism at cafes where we blow off half a month’s average national salary on lattes and cappuccinos whilst we construct our neo- Marxism around the tacit acceptance of the Taliban’s superior Arab cultural identity. We salute Abul Ala Marx, Lenin Bin Laden, and Mulla Mao!

and other references to marx. i think it is coming, during the swat coochicoochi, the beloved taliban had showed a "trailer" of mixing islam with dialectics. from pracha's post it appears its more than a fleeting fancy. and the idea prolly has some resonance within the populace even if for the wrong reasons. that would be really interesting. marx with mullah. i think before it disintegrates, tsp will go through one layer of rationalization via taliban.

ps: anup brilliant.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Mar 2010 10:08

abhishek_sharma wrote:Masters, not friends —Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_4

The title of Ayub Khan’s book, Friends Not Masters stank of crass hypocrisy even then as U-2 planes flew from Peshawar until Nikita Khrushchev threatened to bomb the place.

Oh . . . Mr. Khruschev did not threaten to simply 'bomb' Badaber, he promised to obliterate the place within three days if it was not shutdown. It was very clear what sort of weapon the Chairman of the Soviet Presidium had in his mind for that purpose. The Great Field Marshal Ayub Khan immediately obeyed the diktats of Comrade Khruschev.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 21 Mar 2010 10:16

BBC reports bum blast in Greece. Why is this in the Paki news thread, you ask?? Well, the target was a Pakistani "community leader". Wonder if this is an intra-paki fight or some other reason.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 21 Mar 2010 10:48

Extremists kill 3 in NWA

Sunday, March 21, 2010

Extremists kill 3 in NWA MIRANSHAH: The extremists have killed at least three people in North Waziristan Agency tehsil of Mir Ali, Geo News reported Sunday.

According to sources, these three people were gunned down for allegedly spying for the US in Mir Ali area of Ashauri Adda.

A letter found from the bodies of the killed said the same fate awaits for those who spy for the US. However, nobody has accepted the responsibility of their killings.

------------
Four hurt in Hub blast

KARACHI: At least four people were injured in a blast at Murree Chawk near Hub Chawki, Geo News quoted the Rescue sources as saying Sunday.

According to police sources, the explosives were implanted at Murree Chawk near a police camp, which went off injuring at least for people.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Mar 2010 13:32

What Punjab CM should learn from Taliban?

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... aliban-130

How does it feel caught in the eye of the storm?

...

But what is probably more worrying in this whole sordid affair is the ethnic dimension that terrorist incidents have assumed.

That Punjab has been in perpetual self denial about the existence of Punjabi Taliban and what is cooking in its own backyard in southern Punjab will have its own implications for Pakistan’s most populous province and by extension on the whole of the country.

But what has begun to happen does not bode well for national unity — the witch-hunt bordering on ethnic profiling after terrorist attacks in the Punjab and Sindh, when Pashtuns invariably become a suspect and is picked-up for questioning. Sadly, the electronic media cannot exonerate itself from playing up this ethnic dimension.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Mar 2010 13:35

Load shedding touches 20 Hours

While unannounced load shedding in suburbs of the country has gone up to 18 hours a day, villages are going as many as 20 hours without power. . . . The sources said 9,000 megawatts of power were being generated against a demand of 13,600 megawatts – translating into a deficit of 4,600 megawatts.

The power shortfall, in turn, has sparked a potable water crisis in rural areas across the country, especially Sindh and South Punjab.

All this portends to a nuclear deal with the US.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 21 Mar 2010 13:40

from india today news stories sections, sampling tsp related headlines...

Afghanistan: Govt denies report

Refuting reports that it has been "squeezed out" of Afghanistan, External Affairs Minister S M Krishna has said India was playing a "stellar role" in rebuilding the war-torn country which was acknowledged by the people and the legitimate government there.

Wow. that was reassuring indeed. ThanQ, thanQ mantriji.

War against India on: Hizbul

Militants' activities in J&K are on as per plans, says Hizb chief Salahuddin.

And why does PTI have to follow ~~miliband~~ militant diktat and call terrorists 'militants'?

Taliban behead three in Pak]Three tribesmen were beheaded by the Taliban in Pakistan's restive northwest for allegedly spying for the US.

Miss the days of the mehsuds when the same militants were executing race-traitors for collaborating with the pakjab/isi-tspa nexus.