MRCA News and Discussion

mahesh Sankar · Post by **mahesh Sankar** » 20 Mar 2010 13:07

Based on the tech specification i am pretty impressed with the eurofighter, and i think the possiblity of it winning the tender is high ( only minus the price) becoz i do not think india will put all the eggs in the same basket ( Russia), america is not a reliable partner, gripen may be the dark horse.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 20 Mar 2010 13:32

mahesh Sankar wrote: Based on the tech specification i am pretty impressed with the eurofighter, and i think the possiblity of it winning the tender is high ( only minus the price) becoz i do not think india will put all the eggs in the same basket ( Russia), america is not a reliable partner, gripen may be the dark horse.

If the competition were only about selecting the best machine then it would be done deal already. However price is an important consideration apart from many other sundry ones.

Many supporters of the Eurofighter fail to take into consideration that the Eurofighter employs a significant amount of American technology in it. If you don't trust the US, you shouldn't logically trust the "reliability" of the Eurofighter as well. All this talk about reliability is IMO exaggerated, the only real reliability is being able to build what you need at home. Everything else is politics.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Mar 2010 13:43

SwarnaShikhari wrote:Fwiw get busy naming MiG-35 whatever you want – The MRCA deal is done and a toast has been raised with six people on each side. Bhai log, I rarely post so don't expect me to give hazaar explanations here. It is what it is.

What about Eurofighter Typhoon ? My fair English lady

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Mar 2010 13:52

SwarnaShikhari wrote:Bhai log
....
other possibilities exist in the form howitzer deals. Also, further collaboration on Arjun/purchase of Augusta submarines from Germany are in being waved around.

mahesh Sankar · Post by **mahesh Sankar** » 20 Mar 2010 15:36

Brando wrote:
mahesh Sankar wrote: Based on the tech specification i am pretty impressed with the eurofighter, and i think the possiblity of it winning the tender is high ( only minus the price) becoz i do not think india will put all the eggs in the same basket ( Russia), america is not a reliable partner, gripen may be the dark horse.
If the competition were only about selecting the best machine then it would be done deal already. However price is an important consideration apart from many other sundry ones.

Many supporters of the Eurofighter fail to take into consideration that the Eurofighter employs a significant amount of American technology in it. If you don't trust the US, you shouldn't logically trust the "reliability" of the Eurofighter as well. All this talk about reliability is IMO exaggerated, the only real reliability is being able to build what you need at home. Everything else is politics.

If that is the case the the only option available for us would be the Mig 35 which does not have any american tech

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Mar 2010 18:25

actually, increasing prices or adhering to every comma in the agreement and other similar tactics are par for the course for all mil suppliers, there's nothing particularly russian about it.
the hawk deal is but one example.

such problems will always be there unless we develop our own industry. to be fair to the russians, the gorsh and package, even after price escalation is still cheaper than any other option. secondly, the russians do have a very high leverage when it comes to naval stuff, they are the only country willing to supply cutting edge nuke subs to us. they have this lever and use it fully. that's unfortunately how things stand.

SwarnaShikhari · Post by **SwarnaShikhari** » 20 Mar 2010 19:02

nachiket:

I had exactly the same reaction as you but could not push the puppeteer and correct him or ask for further clarification as he was too excited at that time. The best I recollect was he was more insistent on Germany than the Augusta (sic) part. I was confused too whether it was Agosta, in which case it is France. But if it is Germany then it probably is HDW. Will see and hence take it fwiw

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 20 Mar 2010 20:51

SwarnaShikhari wrote:Bhai log
.........
India wants birds fast, and Russia has some aces up its sleeves given the general observation that MiG has pretty much closed its shop. But MiG-29K has helped it regain its confidence, and substantial work is on the way in terms of line capacity, logistics, the works. In any case, the birds will only come from early-2013 onwards, but ramp from mid-2014 will be substantial. Meanwhile, Russia will supply 2 squadrons of super upgraded late version Mig-29s for India’s use till 2013 at a minimal cost <$400M as a stop-gap measure.
Agreed the russies give us better than the rest. MRCA has been going on for sometime despite depletion of squadrons in IAF. Why the hurry! Thought it might take some more years

In the end the decision will be based on economics: None of the top 3 in the list will be able to satisfy the 126 birds for the $11B tag with all-in delivery is accounted for. Russia is going to be the lowest but the price will be $13B. The next two bidders are believed to be in the $17B and $20B, respectively when ABC (activity based costing) accounting is injected as a truth serum to get the real cost of the deal. So nominally, the deal will be announced as $11B, with the remaining accounted for as late stage upgrades.
Economics will play a major part so also the politics behind it—GOI can spend some extra cash. Hope it can use some extra brains(with spine) and get the best deal possible.

Bottom line: Putin was told India was real pissed and he more than reached to India’s sensibilities, talked about historic relationship, future possibilities from defence to resource economics (was music to India given China’s aggressive shopping spree without concern for economic sense), and a firm promise to deliver. In the end both sides were quite happy.
Hope it is true and Indo-russie friendship continues without major problems. One of our BRFites mentioned about issues lower down than putin or his govt.

The Amrikhan is/was being satisfied with P-8I, howitzers, C-130Js, Jalaswa. India will buy some 24-F-18 Growlers, couple of ships and possibly a 4 to 6 C-17s as a plain vanilla sale after the MRCA deal (within 2-year timeframe) to mollify them further..
India has firmly decided that the khan is useful but not at all reliable, trustworthy, and has lots of nakras – so deal with him with all due courtesy but never based on trust.

Hope GOI agrees on this .
Amerikhans have been screwing us all along and we want to mollify further. Overall it is better to avoid them and not agree to their demands. I know it will be tough for us to get their tech but hey nothing is free and I am sure we will do it if it takes years. Existing ones with upgrades are ok for next decade with help from friendly ones like russies et al.which should help us against bakis and taller than condom and deeper than sh*t friend

France is being satisfied with Mirage-2000 upgrades despite the hefty price as a sop for Nuclear support all along, but will be compensated additionally via avionics/armaments options that will go into MiG-35, Tejas etc. But the message was driven home that Scorpene kind of crap will not be tolerated.
You can include nuclear reactors. They open all their orifices if offer is good. They can be independent of US( compared to others in EU). Yes they have also given some to bakis and ready to give to chippanda if EU agrees.

Europe being satisfied with all kinds of other mish mash like Augusta VIP helicopters, Eurojet EJ200 engine for Tejas, and other possibilities exist in the form howitzer deals. Also, further collaboration on Arjun/purchase of Augusta submarines from Germany are in being waved around.
I am for anything and everything to make LCA a success and guard our skies

Sweden does not count for much and had too many linkages with the khan, but may be thrown some sop via trade as a friendly gesture for their participation.
I am not too happy with Swedes, Scandinavians think too much of themselves and lecture too much on human rights etc and support some orgs(ex- ltte and Norway ).
Also they have supplied some armaments to condom nation.

Fwiw get busy naming MiG-35 whatever you want – The MRCA deal is done and a toast has been raised with six people on each side.
Overall GOI trying to give sops to all- looks crazy
Hope it does not end up displeasing everyone and cause more heartburn and multiply our problems considering our GOI nature
Bhai log, I rarely post so don't expect me to give hazaar explanations here. It is what it is. Hope you dont post in reply to mine. Trying to squeeze into this thread.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Mar 2010 23:53

iron clad guarantee ? there is only one way to get that, "MAKE IT YOURSELF !"

as for international arms transfers it is always a function of diplomatic relations, future prospect, competition etc. look at the hawk deal, or even the original jaguar deal. look how much the french are asking for mirage upgrades etc.

in other countries case, the prices have been VERY high from the very beginning, so a huge cost escalation was near impossible. as for the gorsh, it gets a lot of bad press, certainly the project has been badly mismanaged by the russian yards and we made some mistakes in estimating the amount of work involved, the final product is almost a new built ship. the price we are getting it at doesn't leave much room for complaining. it's the delay that is completely unacceptable.

SwarnaShikhari · Post by **SwarnaShikhari** » 21 Mar 2010 05:05

Bhai log:

My/Puppeteer contention is NOT that having a phoren bird is fine because it suits some lobby. In fact, you could not be more wrong on that front. Yes there are a whole bunch of jokers in political/military class who have sold themselves and do get away from time to time but this does not apply to the core guts of the defence/national security establishment - but do they bumble? are foolish and short-term on occassion? have made some serious mistakes assuming Khan's good behavior? You bet, and no doubt on that front.

Puppeteer, me and I and am sure everyone here longs for the day when Indian designed/made birds rule the sky. We are slowly getting there, but not there yet. In the meanwhile we have to settle for the best among the bad lot. Tejas in place of MRCA? Would have loved that, and we may very well get that partially and Puppeteer is a strong lobbyist for that. When 200 MRCS birds was/is being mooted his contention is why not have Tejas for the remaining 74 after 124 are taken care of. Possibilities but we will see what comes out of that.

$13B for MiG-35 ain't cheap but let's not be under any illusion that these birds are the standard MiG-29 that people are thinking about. Russia is known to have opened the door of its treasure chest of goodies a little more (more than what is known in the public domain), and India sees great flexibility and potential in MiG-35 open architecture and no end-user constraints. Gorshkov, Scorpene, Hawk were great lessons for India, and now it is settling on ABC accounting standard where there entire process is fully determined and costed out and also who will pick the slack should things move beyond a certain point. On that front, $13B holds solidly.

Other bird sellers have offered much less despite public tamasha, and stack up much less in performance in Indian terrain. On the cost front there is no compare as they have to set up the entire logistics/user defined processes from scratch. There is a whole lot more beyond sexy birds landing and taking off. MiG-35 is nobody's fool on that front.

I have said my piece and will shut up. If there are unanswered questions they will get cleared soon.

Looks like I need another baba zarda paan with meeta masala. It is a little strong so be careful!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Mar 2010 07:49

Russian company expected to bid on Air Force refueling tanker

A new twist in the Air Force's 10-year effort to build an aerial refueling tanker may bring a bid from a Russian state-owned aerospace company for the $35 billion tanker contract, according to the company's U.S. attorney.

I think India should become a sales/marketing partner in this deal. 10% cut.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Mar 2010 09:39

^^^ In that case we should purchase the IL-96 Tanker with Western Engine , so that it gives some confidence to USAF

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 21 Mar 2010 11:20

What goodies along with the aircrafts will the IAF get?? What are the americans, Europeans and Russians offering with their birds of prey. What missiles, pods, etc will the IAF get ? Will they get the R-77M1 with the MiG-35 ???

If IAF get the 175kms ranged R-77M1 than MiG-35 will no doubt be the a great buy, emphasis these days is shifting from the aircrafts to its weapons.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 21 Mar 2010 13:13

smpratik wrote:What goodies along with the aircrafts will the IAF get?? What are the americans, Europeans and Russians offering with their birds of prey. What missiles, pods, etc will the IAF get ? Will they get the R-77M1 with the MiG-35 ???

If IAF get the 175kms ranged R-77M1 than MiG-35 will no doubt be the a great buy, emphasis these days is shifting from the aircrafts to its weapons.

the BVRAAM offered with MIG-35 is not r-77M1 but IS RVV-SD with a 30km better range than rvv-ae.
HERE IS A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TWO

RVV-SD
Basic Performance Characteristics
Launch Range:
- max, at the front hemisphere, km – up to 110
- min, at the aft hemisphere, km – 0.3
Target altitude, km - 0,02 - 25
Launch weight, kg – not more than 190
Missile dimensions, m
- length – 3.71
- diameter – 0.2
- wing span – 0.42
- fin span – 0.68

RVV-AEBasic Specifications
Launch range, km:
max, in the frond hemisphere 80
min, in the aft hemisphere 0.3
Target engagement altitude, km 0.02 - 25
Launch weight, kg 175
Warhead weight, kg 22.5
Missile dimensions, m:
length 3.6
body diameter 0.2
wing span 0.4
fin span 0.7

The MiG- 35’s air-to-air missiles will be renewed, too. The fighter will get RVV-MD and RVVSD advanced short- and medium-range missiles that outperform the well-known
RVV-AE and R-73.

http://www.airfleet.ru/arhiv/n3_2009/12-billion_prize/

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/567/

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 21 Mar 2010 22:49

The RVV-SD/MD good missiles and part of the mig-35 package but no r-77M, the ramjet adder is no show and dont really know where it is, seems like the missile has been scrubbed. If we go for the EF, Rafale, Gripen NG, their primary A2A missile is the aim-120C-7, dont know when Meteor will arrive. R-77 has had reliability issues in the IAF and so did many other Russian weapons.

the f-16, f-18, f-15 will soon have the aim-120D as their prmary a2a missile, now will the US give this stuff to india? will they allow for our own missles to be inducted? chances for our missiles on US platforms is good because hey there are f-18s and f-16s flying with non-us weapons like mica, magics, stormshadows, popeye-2, python-5, delilah and even Taurus long range cruise missiles, so Indian weapons on US platfroms wont be an issue. key issue is full-tot, source codes and nukes on platforms. sources codes no way but cuzstomization possible, full-tot may be?

ideal would be to go for the EF or the F-18 depending which engine wins the LCA mk-2 engine contest. so one of them seems to be a sure winner. Either way seems ok, EF is the best A2A while the SH is best multirole plus like the idea of a new engine for the SH. may the most economically useful aircraft win.

username changed from Brahmos to Brahmananda in accordance with forum rules.
you can request a human sounding name of your choie if you want.
Rahul.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Mar 2010 02:39

(Some) admins are getting spiritual for sure. Nice.

More US propaganda: US offers latest airborne radar to India

After a range of top fighter aircraft and other weapon systems, the US has now offered another sophisticated system to India, the Airborne Stand-Off Radar (ASTOR), whose capability has been described as "unmatched" by a former US navy official.

.........................................................

First deployed in 2008, ASTOR can even detect minor variations in surface levels, like digging and filling of earth at the same place, and draw conclusions about activity. The system consists of an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar on board the Bombardier Global Express 'Sentinel' business jet. Indian officials first visited the aircraft displayed at the Paris Air Show in June 2009 and have followed up with discussions.

Is someone keeping count of how many Indian systems would be subject to sanctions?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Mar 2010 02:44

I am not sure what this world is coming to. Latest DTI: "US Standardizes Russian Helo Buy" (Page 8 ).

The Defense Dept's chief weapons buyer signed off on a program office for Russian aircrafts on Jan 19, and named the Army the lead service for Russian aircraft procurement. ........................... The decision ends months of discussion over how to proceed with Russian aircraft, primarily Mi-17 helicopters bought for Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. .................

Perhaps India should be made a MTO for them.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 22 Mar 2010 02:50

The MI 17s where given to Pakistan for free on an emergency basis by the U.S. But Pakistanis are already returning them after an accident involving one. Pakistanis don't really like Russian gear.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Mar 2010 03:11

NRao wrote: Is someone keeping count of how many Indian systems would be subject to sanctions?

Well apart from the C-130Js, P-8I and the WLR's what else have we actually bought from them?
The ASTOR too has been offered by Raytheon and the JSF was offered by LM. The US govt. hasn't offered anything yet. They might very well deny the ASTOR if we actually try to buy them, considering the fact that they were reluctant to even sell the full-spec APG-79 along with the SH. The ASTOR would be even more sophisticated.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Mar 2010 03:35

^^^
6 SH-3 sea king helo on jalashwa.

johnny_m wrote:The MI 17s where given to Pakistan for free on an emergency basis by the U.S. But Pakistanis are already returning them after an accident involving one. Pakistanis don't really like Russian gear.

not so. pakis both of the flying and nonflying variety have bought both Mi-8 and Mi-17 over the last decade. the problem might have been with the particular batch.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 22 Mar 2010 04:18

Surya wrote:
Surya wrote:
2. and what prevents us from making our F 16s a cut above the rest the MKI way.

EUMA

Sanku

Correct except like israel we should try and get an exception.

If on such a big deal on its last possible chance for an order we cannot do a hard bargain then we should not beplaying in the big boys club

Surya, that is the nub of the issue isn't it, why does India not get a waiver to EUMA despite making such a huge purchase?

Aint that the million $ question buddy.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 22 Mar 2010 05:11

Hi Sanku

No disagreements on this

If we do nto get an exception on this (MRCA) from EUMA at least from MKIzing it then all bets are off.

But my point was if it was given and if other parameters were satisfied - there is no reason not to go for the F 16

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 22 Mar 2010 05:37

full-spec apg-79 not being offered is really old news and i really dont buy it. Full-tot may not come but they'll give the full-spec apg-79, according to what Boeing says, they fully comply with the rfp which if i am not wrong demands 60% tot and the old submissions wont be valid beyond end of april so they'll all have to submit new proposals. They gave the p-8I, it doesnt come with full-tot so i dont see why we cant get ASTOR, ASTOR is operational since 2008 while P-8I is still being tested. so i dont think getting ASTOR will be a problem. I think the EF, Mig-35 and SH will battle it out in the end. Now EF wont come with full-tot because EF has lots of US made critical parts, if US indeed is smart enough to think of giving full-tot they'll give it on the SH or SV not the Gripen NG and EF. If we go for anyother bird than the Mig-35 we'll have to depend on US for weapons. the Rafale, NG, EF, SH and SV all deploy Aim-120C-7 as their primary BVR missiles, Meteor is no where in sight.

If all else fails the mig-35 will find its way into our inventory, nice bird but just like MKI is expensive to operate and maintain on the long haul.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Mar 2010 06:24

nachiket wrote:
NRao wrote: Is someone keeping count of how many Indian systems would be subject to sanctions?
Well apart from the C-130Js, P-8I and the WLR's what else have we actually bought from them?
The ASTOR too has been offered by Raytheon and the JSF was offered by LM. The US govt. hasn't offered anything yet. They might very well deny the ASTOR if we actually try to buy them, considering the fact that they were reluctant to even sell the full-spec APG-79 along with the SH. The ASTOR would be even more sophisticated.

Actually quite a bit.

145 M777 towed unltra-light howitzers via US FMS, snooping devices that allowed India to snoop on conversation between Gen. Pasha, head of ISI, and Prez Karzai (check Pak-Af thread). Javelin being evaled.

One quibble. LM offered, but did they brief India? The ASTOR:

According to Admiral Walter F Doran, president Asia for Raytheon, Indian officials had already been briefed

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 22 Mar 2010 07:59

Kuwait MPs Object To Rafale Purchase Deal

KUWAIT CITY - An Islamist parliamentary bloc in Kuwait has warned the government against the planned purchase of French-made Rafale warplanes, saying the deal was "suspicious."

"The bloc reiterates its firm rejection of this suspicious deal, especially following information that the latest technical reports have recommended the rejection of the deal," a statement by the Reform and Development Bloc said.

The written statement, released March 21, did not say why the deal was deemed suspicious, and there has been no official word that Kuwait was reconsidering the purchase

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 22 Mar 2010 08:10

SwarnaShikhari wrote:
Bhai log

In the end the decision will be based on economics: None of the top 3 in the list will be able to satisfy the 126 birds for the $11B tag with all-in delivery is accounted for. Russia is going to be the lowest but the price will be $13B. The next two bidders are believed to be in the $17B and $20B, respectively when ABC (activity based costing) accounting is injected as a truth serum to get the real cost of the deal. So nominally, the deal will be announced as $11B, with the remaining accounted for as late stage upgrades.
---------------
Normally the price cover will be opened after the tech evaluation. How is that before seeing the Mig-35 tech performance ? One more Groky going to hang on the head? What kind of leverage we have with Russia to have iron clad guarantee ? If we have such, why not with Gorshkov first ? Even with Su-30mki full tot hasnt realised yet. Is it like ordering another 330 T-90s for getting the tot that was promised in the earlier deal ?

And this ABC also includes the total life cycle cost, ToT and took of account local manufacturing ? Or it is just a euphemism for the commission etc? If including TLFC, if one say Russian bird coming top...what to say, i have one round building in new delhi for sale...

Kalle · Post by **Kalle** » 22 Mar 2010 10:27

Brahmananda wrote: the Rafale, NG, EF, SH and SV all deploy Aim-120C-7 as their primary BVR missiles, Meteor is no where in sight.

That is not entirely correct, todays BVR missile for Rafale is Mica and Meteor has already been testfired from the Gripen. The French, UK and Swedish government has indicated that they will aquire Meteor in 2015 for Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen.

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 22 Mar 2010 12:32

Kalle saab Mica is a really piss poor choice one should rely on to defend a really expensive jet because with its range of 60km it is half the range of the aim-120C-5, the C-7 is said to have a range of over 140km. The Meteor wont be ready for full induction before 2017 and its estimated price in 2008 was over 1 million pounds. A really expensive missile. Most of the Paki and chinese junk doesnt deserve such an expensive missile. the R-77 or the aim-120C-7 would be more than enough. Even the Astra would be good enough. It would be nice if we began work on ramjet Astra with a range of over 120km. Ramjet Astra on EF would be a deadly combo.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 22 Mar 2010 12:57

Exactly, what is the need for MICA. It's operational range is less than our stock R-77 and even Astra which has a head on range of 80 Km.

Source codes will be a major issue with Americn jets as we would like to integrate Astra with it.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 22 Mar 2010 13:45

Kanson; you do manage to surprise me to no end with your lack of correctness on a sustained manner.

Kanson wrote: If we have such, why not with Gorshkov first ?

What is the problem with Gorky? Still all said and done it is the cheapest and fastest available A/C which India could get.

And yes, there were issues with price, big deal really, we dont even know what all has come under the Gorky wrapper.

Is it like ordering another 330 T-90s for getting the tot that was promised in the earlier deal ?

ToT was NEVER part of 2000 deal for T 90, it was part of 2006 deal which was finally sorted out in 2008.

And wake me up when you get ToT at Russian levels of tech, prices and speed from anyone else.

::Yawn::

If including TLFC, if one say Russian bird coming top...what to say, i have one round building in new delhi for sale...

Yes I see you have been trying to sell it for a while, but what to do we are not buying onlee...

joke only saar

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 22 Mar 2010 14:05

RUAG wins order in support of RBE2 radar work for French Rafale fighter aircraft

Thales has awarded RUAG Aviation an order worth 5.5 million Swiss francs to produce a subassembly for the RBE2 radar for France's Rafale fighter jet. The radar is the most powerful currently used in European fighter jets. The first deliveries are planned for the second half of 2011 and will initially be integrated into the Rafale for the French market, with export customers following at a later date. These will include the Swiss Air Force, should Switzerland choose the Rafale.

RUAG and Thales collaborate in various aerospace, defence and security projects. RUAG is strengthening its position at Thales' side in the latest generation of the RBE2 radar, thus taking a decisive step in a strategic partnership based on a cooperation agreement signed between the two companies in May 2009. This partnership is founded on excellent industrial and technical performance and strong competitiveness, and will enable the RUAG Group to participate in the current and future success of the Rafale in France and in the export market.

"We are thrilled about winning the order. It is proof of our outstanding technological expertise," stated Dr Peter Guggenbach, CEO of RUAG Aviation.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Mar 2010 18:01

Though I'm all for the IAF buying more MIG-29/MIG-35s ,to keep the inventory happy with at least 120+ of the type,as well as an MMRCA,it is not a foregone conclusion in my opinion.The unexplained delay in pushing the LCA MK-2 engine decision indicates that other forces might be at play which want to scupper the project,or limit its relevance.A successful LCA with a moe pwoerful MK-2 version,available at lower cost than from western established manufacturers,will pose a serious challenge to soem of their export markets.Hence the dsie to see the LCA fail.In this case,the Gripen being the closest in concept to the LCA might prove an attractive buy,while the heavier role might be further reinforced with more Flanker variants.If the Russians mainatin their concerted effort to have the PAK-FA enter service in 2015,it will have a definite effect upon the IAF's future planning as the desie to fly the best which will have an Indian flavour will be irresistible.

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 22 Mar 2010 18:48

I just wonder if the Khans have figured they wont get the big ticket items in our defence purchases... hence the noises for nuke deal with TSP... coz if we know then surely Khan saab must have figured long back...

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 22 Mar 2010 22:25

Nihat bhai, i dont think we need source codes in order to integrate Astra on Amriki jets because i dont think they gave out source codes when they integrated missiles like Derby, Python-5, Mica, Magic-2, Iris-T, As-30L, Skyflash, Popeye-2, Delilah etc on to F-16s and missiles like Taurus KEPD, on f-18s. I think, please correct me if i am wrong, source codes would be nice to have in order to have an extended threat library on a particular aircraft. Without source codes how in the world did the Pakis get the f-16s armed with nukes? Could some BR experts shed some light on source codes please because i can't fully understand how they work. Without source codes how in the world did so many non-US weapons get integrated onto US platforms?

prabir · Post by **prabir** » 23 Mar 2010 00:30

sawant wrote:I just wonder if the Khans have figured they wont get the big ticket items in our defence purchases... hence the noises for nuke deal with TSP... coz if we know then surely Khan saab must have figured long back...

Offering Nuke deal to Pakistan and then talking about strategic partnership with India is "double talk". Hope so, our policy makers take note of this and do not fall into American trap.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 23 Mar 2010 01:12

There can be no nook deal for Pukistan without Ivan's approval. So as long as we keep hugging the Russian bear we will be okay.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 23 Mar 2010 01:13

Sweden's Gripens head for AFS Jaisalmer

...
demonstration of air-to-air refuelling and flying manoeuvres — by the IAF's specifically designated MMRCA team here, two Gripens will now complete the remaining part of their flight tests over Pokhran and Leh before heading for the AFS Jamnagar and then to an air base in Sweden.
...
Ministry of Defence officials familiar with the MMRCA trials told The Hindu that while they expect no hiccups during the weapons drop over Pokhran, the Leh exercise proved challenging to the other contenders vying for the MMRCA deal.

The officials confided that four of the five aircraft in the MMRCA competition faced problems starting up in the rarefied atmosphere of Leh, and the IAF had to ask the manufacturers to undertake modifications in the aircraft's fuel systems.
...
...
...
Once the flight trials are completed, the MMRCA evaluation team headed by the Principal Director, Air Staff Requirements, Air Commodore R.K. Dhir will write the technical report, narrowing down the competition to three or four contenders. Thereafter, the commercial bids will be opened, with the lowest bidder — as per India's defence procurement procedures — winning the contract.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Mar 2010 02:22

L1 is a bane in defence procurement. I hope AC RK Dhir & team select the best of the lot, any one of which can meet all our needs.

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 23 Mar 2010 02:28

wonder which one of the five tested so far didn't have problems at Leh.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 23 Mar 2010 04:07

Brahmananda wrote:wonder which one of the five tested so far didn't have problems at Leh.

Well I'll tell you which one HASN'T been tested, it is the Mig-35!!!! (If I'm following this competition correctly, that is the only one, YET to be tested.) All others, have been tested so far (first was the Solah, followed by the Atharah, then came Rafale, Typhoon, and the Grips are currently being tested..) that leaves out the 35!!!