India-US News and Discussion

Kavu · Post by **Kavu** » 22 Mar 2010 20:46

Philip wrote:I feel sorry for PC,when he said that we would be "getting to talk" to Headley.The stark truth is that we might get access to Headley, but we will never GET Headley!

What were our people doing when he was butt-kissing with the elite of this country and freely surveying every damn infrastructure of national importance. US caught him, and they have their laws, We will never give up anyone for the same offense in a different country, if the person was an Indian Citizen and is wanted for terrorism in our own country. Will we give back Dawood Ibrahim if we caught him in India, for creating havoc in Karachi? Indians need to suck it up, and also have a hard look at our Inteliigence wing, vote politics, corruption, failure of armed forces and Police. We need to redraw plans for this country's security and ideology from the ground up.

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 22 Mar 2010 20:54

I tend to agree with Dr Shiv on this. We are forever looking to see what others can do for us. And, if someone is not aligned with us all the way, we feel hurt, let down , frustrated, anger etc. Case in point, the shock quite a few felt when Putin during his recent visit said that Indians need to look at Pakistan differently.

The point as far as the US is concerned is that, we are forever looking to gain/get something from them , whether it is C-17s or Nuclear Reactors or H-1Bs. Which is fine..because all other countries are also looking to do the same. But, going further we expect the US to support us on every issue ranging from Kashmir to Afghanistan to climate Change to WTO to Dean Hedley and we get into a nationwide sulk if this doesnt happen.
But frankly what is ignored what purpose do we serve for the US? Other than incipent or fantasyland concepts like surrounding China and being a Democracy, not much really. And definitely not as much as some of our other challengers like China and Pak do.
Pak, for all its failings, is a crucial tool for the US. It has inserted itself ( how it has..is a different issue) as the key lever to delivering Afghanistan to the US or pressurising Iran or reassuring Saudi Arabia. China in the late 70's and 80's served key US political interests in SE Asia by invading Vietnam and putting a lid on communist insurgents in Indonesia. All this while they regularly swallowed insults from the US on Taiwan.
We on the other hand are very new to all this, getting out of our post NAM mindset only in this century.. From independence to the mid-90s, we indulged in meaningless posturing through NAM and other sundry activities. Even now, we resist the US on every issue from Global Warming to WTO to Iraq war ( not that it makes the slightest bit of difference to the US). Again the reasons for our stand is not really relevant but just the final stand. So, frankly we have not done the US any favours. So, why should we expect such huge favours from the US?
A lot of forumites may say that we are buying lots of stuff from the US and hence, this provides us leverage. I dont think so. Primarily because we are not amongst the US' top 10 trading partners and even if we were, then also these are mostly in the commercial domain. We are yet to provide any tangible political or military or commercial benefit to the US. Again, like I've said earlier, its a moot point whether we need, at all, to provide the US with some of these benefits. But we should then just accept that international relations are a 2-way street. If we are not willing to provide tangible political/military/foreign policy benefits to the US, then it may be a bit rich to expect the US to help us out.

munna · Post by **munna** » 22 Mar 2010 20:56

shiv wrote:I believe that if India says "OK balls to population and poor - we will look for military strength now" we can become a military power that is Pakistan X 20 and literally threaten everyone - including the US. But I promise you.. (and I say this from the bottom of my heart with deepest love and anguish for my nation).. I promise you that India will split again as richer states will not want to have anything to do with the Bihars and UPs and failing subsections of India and the latter go into revolt. Greedy Indians who were looking for world power and world respect before giving power and respect to other Indians will amputate off parts of India and secede - for their nation will be richer and more powerful without the incessantly proliferating bimari BIMARUs

Very interesting question indeed! But I believe on this issue I stand with you and other "Development Campers". The key here is not an unbridled diversion of funds from development oriented expenditures towards arms and ammunitions. The key here is to judiciously utilize what we have. As with other things government in India our armed forces too are mired in mediocrity vis a vis other nations. We need to quickly realize the efficiency gains from leaner and meaner government including judiciary, army and legislatures. The key here is to shift gears and improve our mechanisms.

We get beaten around not because we underspend on our armed forces but because of the mediocrity that has come to symbolize all things government in our nation. To gain credibility with US our government needs to becmome more credible by showing 'em yankees a sense of purpose. Till the time we come across as a confused and bumbling lot, we won't be taken seriously-big bum or chotu bum doth not a difference make! Our will as a nation is taken to be mediocre, period.

To sum it I am banking on reforms 3.0 ie governance reforms in India to uplift the laggard states from current morass. And ironically that will be more than enough to send some pretty nasty shock waves to some capitals in the world, bigger than doing "bum bum bhole". With current defence spending we can take on anybody and their uncle no point in hiking it.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 22 Mar 2010 21:31

The key here is not an unbridled diversion of funds from development oriented expenditures towards arms and ammunitions. The key here is to judiciouly utilize what we have.

Good point. Very important one. And one that bears repeating.

Gujarat brightly shows the way on what a purposeful administrator can do for a state in both development and security terms. I believe the model is scalable to all of India - and certainly to a handful of key ministries in the union gubmint.

It's an old canard that is in play (again!) that jingoes wanting a tougher line on tsp, or are critical of GOI in general or are looking askance at unkil designs for the subcontinent etc etc don't know or care about developmental goals and needs for the majority of Indians. Some moons ago, a possible explanation pushed relentlessly on here was that such jingoes had mostly left Yindia for phoren shores and hence were risklessly parroting marital jingo hymns.

Have said these things before but the same sham arguments about develop-security being some zero sum game resurface with restless regularity. It's hence important to attack this dangerous assumption head-on.

Regarding disparities within India (Bimaru vs the rest types), yes, we have issues. They can be handled but will not be until some crisis bubbles upto a head and we are forced to change status-quo.

BTW, in 10 yrs, we'll see unkil having issues too with unkil's bimaru states declaring bankruptcy and forced to pull away many many essential services even, from citizens. Same with sovereign EU states, possibly.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 22 Mar 2010 21:36

>>Indian nation should be ready for 25 years war. The new generation will be fighting for next 25 years.

Are you talking of a military war? Not clear. If yes, against whom?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Mar 2010 21:39

JE Menon wrote:
Are you talking of a military war? Not clear. If yes, against whom?

Yes, Military war and India has plenty of enemies. After 25 years the perception of India will change.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Mar 2010 21:41

Avik wrote: We are forever looking to see what others can do for us. And, if someone is not aligned with us all the way, we feel hurt, let down , frustrated, anger etc.

Indians are like babies...

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Mar 2010 21:59

Doc,
There is another way of looking at the supposed liability of poor states like Bihar,UP, MP etc. They can be our biggests asset in maintaing internal security as well huge (5-10 Milion) standing army. Not all of them have to have the high level training and equipment. There are many way to exploit this kind of manpower , all it require is vision and right kind of guidance. Rich states can do their part and poor states do their duty ,Indians get the laddoos in both hands and get to keep the fear of Rabb with fist (Munna). But what do our polictians do,sadly entirely different(anti) matter. India can use a viisonary leader now, at this crucial conjuncture.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Mar 2010 22:05

Pranav wrote:The interesting thing about Russia and China is that they are authoritarian states whose leaders understand how to exercise power. Their leaders are not paragons of virtue, but they are certainly not personally beholden to foreign interests. Perhaps the fact they don't have to worry about domestic opposition helps.

India is ostensibly a democracy but our elites lack clarity of vision, and moral fiber. They have looted their poverty-stricken countrymen, have stashed wealth in foreign banks, are avaricious for power and pelf, and fear skeletons in closets.

That is why India is hobbled in its pursuit of national interests.

True words of Wisdom, not a whine but reality. Looking at the Indian political, elite landscape can make any sensible person do the puking or inner pakistani on them.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Mar 2010 22:18

Shiv ji: Good post onlee. A nation has duty to protect and work for the progress of its own citizens.

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 22 Mar 2010 22:39

Pranav wrote: India is ostensibly a democracy but our elites lack clarity of vision, and moral fiber. They have looted their poverty-stricken countrymen, have stashed wealth in foreign banks, are avaricious for power and pelf, and fear skeletons in closets.

That is why India is hobbled in its pursuit of national interests.

I couldn't have put it better. And on top of it we have used linguistic elitism to exclude 100s of millions from the circles of privilege.

Sometimes I wonder how I live with my conscience. People I know actually fight the injustice. But they lose their place among the "elite".

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 22 Mar 2010 22:40

shiv wrote: On the other hand - I promise you (this is my belief) that an intact India will be a world dominator if we pay adequate attention now and for the next 20 years to population control and development of "failed states" of India.

Well said.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 22 Mar 2010 23:23

Winning the news-cycle vs. winning the game.
http://plainblogaboutpolitics.blogspot. ... obama.html

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 23 Mar 2010 00:10

>>Yes, Military war and India has plenty of enemies.

Whom would the war be against, for 25 years I mean? I guess 25 is just a random number, could be 20 or 25...

>>After 25 years the perception of India will change.

Whose perception? I guess you mean by people other than Indians. If so, why does this perception of India matter? If you are referring to Indian self-perception, then isn't a war a rather expensive way of achieving this change?

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 23 Mar 2010 01:18

There's a very obvious piece of leverage that India has over the US. Even an ostensible pro-US hack lile Shekhar Gupta pointed this out.

If the logic is that India needs to keep placating Unkil by not responding to TSPA provocations, then an unhappy India can threaten to do exactly that. Essentially, if Obama acts as though US only responds to troublemakers, then we can show him that we hear that message loud and clear. All it takes is a publicly announced tri-forces military exercise with a current version of Lt. Gen. Kapil Vij and we know what it would mean for Obama's Afghan plans.

What we see therefore is not a manifestation of India's lack of options, but a conscious choice made by MMS and co to put up with the Headley farce.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 23 Mar 2010 01:21

Rangudu wrote:
If the logic is that India needs to keep placating Unkil by not responding to TSPA provocations, then an unhappy India can threaten to do exactly that.

Op Parakram showed something if not to the expectation. But these are the different "war" option India still has.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 23 Mar 2010 01:21

In addition to JEM questions, wanted clarity on:
>>>Indians are like babies.

What part is being touched to get this conclusion.
see here

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 23 Mar 2010 01:23

Amber G. wrote:In addition to JEM questions, wanted clarity on:
>>>Indians are like babies.

It was a repeat of what the poster posted.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 23 Mar 2010 02:00

prad wrote:US Health Bill: read all the liberal pundits across the spectrum.....and not a single person even decides to talk about the fact that more than 55% oppose the bill. the arrogance and elitism is astonishing.

This is probably going off-topic, but see what a conservative says:
http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

The point of posting the piece about Obama is to emphasize that there is no point in winning the 24-hour news cycle (e.g., "US will discuss nuke deal with Pakistan" (various Pakis), "Pakistan is at the height of its influence with the US (Zardari or Gilani)") - these all make good headlines but mean zero, nada, zilch; and not to get into a debate about US health care.

There is something about the US healthcare debate that is illustrative of the influence of religion in politics - that may be worth understanding, but that is a matter for another post, if any.

PS: that 55% is a Fox news talking point without much substance.
http://www.citybeat.com/cincinnati/blog ... after.html

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Mar 2010 02:02

prad wrote:US Health Bill: read all the liberal pundits across the spectrum.....and not a single person even decides to talk about the fact that more than 55% oppose the bill. the arrogance and elitism is astonishing.

Just curious, why is it important for Indo-US thread? What bearing does it have on India?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Mar 2010 02:09

Let me try. If there is universal health care it will led to more people being treated in hospitals, which means more documents. And everyone knows that will lead to more outsourcing the health care records. And that means Indians in India. Add to that more generics from India get imported for treating all those newly insured.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Mar 2010 02:11

prad wrote:A_Gupta: 59% is the official figure according to latest CNN poll......the evil Fox News isn't controlling the brains of CNN.

Sanku: in a thread where US-India relations are discussed, i just pointed out that a major piece of legislation was passed with a solid majority opposing it. that is a significant happening for the domestic politics of one of the 2 countries that this thread deals with. could be a major factor int he coming mid-term elections. is BRF completely bereft of political talk? is the political realm completely OT for BRF?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Mar 2010 02:17

How can a legislation pass with a majority opposing it? What you mean is a significant opposition to it.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Mar 2010 02:23

ramana wrote:Let me try. If there is universal health care it will led to more people being treated in hospitals, which means more documents. And everyone knows that will lead to more outsourcing the health care records. And that means Indians in India. Add to that more generics from India get imported for treating all those newly insured.

Good bill.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 23 Mar 2010 02:25

prad; whatever the irrelevance is to India-US relations, it is an excellent example of how to create propaganda.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010 ... orm-is.php

The new CNN poll on the health care bill -- conducted in the days before its ultimate passage in the House on Sunday night -- on the surface appears to show widespread opposition to the law. But on the other hand, the exact makeup of that opposition paints an ambiguous picture of just how effective a Republican campaign against it could be.

The initial top-line shows only 39% of registered voters favoring the bill, to 59% opposing it. However a follow-up question finds that 43% oppose it on the grounds that it is too liberal, while 13% oppose it on the grounds that it is not liberal enough. So another way of looking at the data is that 43% oppose it for being too liberal, 39% favor it, and 13% oppose it for not being liberal enough, with another 3% who oppose it for some indeterminate reasons.

Those for whom the bill is not liberal enough are those who wanted a single payer system or wanted the public option. But they will swing into the Democratic column making it 52% for the Democrats.

PS: and every parliamentary procedure used by the Democrats to pass this bill was previously used by the Republicans during the 2000-2006 period.

PPS: makes the point even more forcefully:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn ... index.html

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 23 Mar 2010 03:12

ramana wrote:Let me try. If there is universal health care it will led to more people being treated in hospitals, which means more documents. And everyone knows that will lead to more outsourcing the health care records. And that means Indians in India. Add to that more generics from India get imported for treating all those newly insured.

These are good long term implications, but in the short-term we can rule out importation of cheap generics. US Pharma companies made sure that importation of drugs and shortening of patents was banned as part of a deal with Obama.

The one possible impact I'm looking to see is a deluge of Indian doctors getting visas to serve rural USA. With this law, underserved communities will get funds and will need doctors to take care of people who are higher risk, i.e. likely to need more treatment than those with good primary care. I don't see American doctors going to Nebraska or rural Idaho, so foreign doctors will have to be brought in, just like in Europe.

A government funded demand has been created, so supply has to meet it somehow.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Mar 2010 03:18

So more Gulburga type medical colleges in India eventually? I would lobby the US lawmakers to get more visas for rural medical practioners. Let me call my AAPI friends.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 23 Mar 2010 03:18

talk about the fact that more than 55% oppose the bill.

As I said before (see below) even though majority says that there is no nose, elephant still breaths.

(Point here is no one really knows, but these people are interpreting the results of "a poll" and drawing conclusions on limited amount of data)

Seriously : what is the basis of "fact" ? Pointing out the obvious fact that 194 out of 435, who opposed it by voting against it, is NOT 55% majority (yes, it is less than 50%)

Even if you mean that basis is "opinion polls" etc, you have to look at data ( eg in the poll: what questions are/were asked? what part of the bill ? the bill as a whole? what's the sample size and confidence level of the poll etc) to infer what is the relevance of that 55% number. I simply do not see FOX (or CNN) poll as valid (and I believe no one else does either) as to reliably infer to draw any conclusion... could be a nice talking point but - fact? Not really.

>>>"fascinating...what i meant was the majority of the public opposing it"
So, Here what is the credible proof, that "majority of the public" is opposing it ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Mar 2010 03:29

Public opinion can change as it gets shaped by media. It can whipsaw as the media plays the music.
What counts is the elected number of reps who voted for it and that is the majority that matters.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 23 Mar 2010 05:10

India shall not lose its grip

Fearing this pressure, Atalji initiated the peace process with Pakistan and Kashmir’s separatist groups (he confided this to me). When Manmohan Singh became the PM, the American pressure increased tremendously. Manmohan Singh has always been soft to America and easily succumbed to this pressure. He agreed to grant autonomy to Kashmir and to withdraw military from the peak of Siachen. When I contacted him and protested (my contacts with the PM have been always indirect), he stated that the NDA had agreed with these concessions. I contacted George Fernandes and Atalji and both confirmed the NDA’s agreement.

I wrote a strong letter to Manmohan Singh and some of the Indian military officers also objected strenuously. The PM asked me whether the RSS could pass a resolution opposing both the concessions. At my request to P.P. Sudarshanji, the Sangh passed a resolution at the Chitrakoot Prininidhi Sabha Baithak. The PM backed off from the concessions and luckily, President Bush did not push India much. President Obama is determined to get out of Afghanistan and is pressurising Pakistan to help the US to get at least some success in Afghanistan. In return, he has promised Pakistan that he would pressurise India to grant autonomy to Kashmir. He has appointed two high-level bureaucrats to pressurise India.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 23 Mar 2010 06:57

This could just as well belong in the China thread:

Where's the tipping point in US-China relations?

How deep are the fissures in the coalition that sustained U.S.-China relations in the past? The American business community seems particularly conflicted. Few are pulling out of China, but, for example, a new survey from the American Chamber of Commerce in China puts the percentage of U.S. companies that feel unwelcome in the Chinese market at 38 percent, up 15 points from 23 percent just two years ago in 2008. And that sentiment extends beyond technology companies, like Google, into the manufacturing sector, with a variety of companies now complaining about a host of issues, from intellectual property theft to non-tariff barriers to various aspects of China’s regulatory regime.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Mar 2010 07:18

Prem wrote:Doc,
There is another way of looking at the supposed liability of poor states like Bihar,UP, MP etc. They can be our biggests asset in maintaing internal security as well huge (5-10 Milion) standing army. Not all of them have to have the high level training and equipment.

OT

Prem, imagine going to a hotel in Delhi and being stopped by a guard who can only understand Oriya and not a word of any other language? Well the equivalent of that is actually happening. Every mall, theater and hotel in Bangalore and many other cities are manned by uniformed guards from the states that you name, employed by private security agencies. The elite rich are employing them to protect themselves, and it is assumed that the families of these guards will benefit from a trickle down since they have jobs. But this does not amount to actual development of those states. Development has to be on the ground within the state. Development means going beyond day to day feeding to act that touch the lives of women and children. It is easy to forget that women and children (less than 5 years) constitute more than 60% of India's population (> 600 million, more than all countries of the world barring China). Birth control, health care, education and jobs need to be done locally and not by employing the young and fit (20-45 years) men as the chowkidars of India.

No more. It is OT. But I will stop with a below the belt parting shot. Note that a discussion of healthcare in India is relegated to some other forum and does not form part of a discussion of what is "strategic" for India, But it is OK as long as we discuss US healthcare. To that extent this thread is US territory controlled by US interests. The power of the US is such that a bill of zero consequence to India passed in the US senate gets airtime along with terrorism and other things that are important to Indians.

The US plays with India causing

or

depending on the number of H1 visas for the elite. We are allowed to deal with the US at that level and line up in huge queues to be fingerprinted by US authorities. I must be one of the few people who has escaped having my own fingerprints taken. But it won;t be long before my fingerprints too are looked at by the US authorities when an anti-US terrorist is caught. But we still fail to acknowledge US dominance and pretend that we can somehow manage without paying the US its due. The US will take its pound of flesh anyway - as it takes forum bandwidth making health care of 200 million Americans the flavor of the day.

The US dominates the world. India is a third world country that is still desperately trying to gets a huge percentage of its population up to a decent standard. Where is the comparison? How long can we pretend to fight US dominance? How much is it necessary to oppose the US? How much should actually be cooperation?

Sometimes Indian attitudes remind me of a schoolboy joke I heard over 40 years ago. A huge Pathan catches a man and his wife and tells them that he should be allowed to have the woman or he will kill them. Under duress they agree, and the Pathan warns the man to look away. When the job is done the man and woman go their way and the woman giggles. Her husband asks her why.

She says "I fooled him."

"How?"

"Sometimes I allowed him from the front and sometimes I turned and allowed him from the back"

Next the man sniggers and says "I also fooled him"

"How?"

"Sometimes I looked. Sometimes I didn't"

The US is like the Pathan who has his way and Indians are the couple who get little joys from minor rebellion and get their fake echandee from that.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Mar 2010 07:25

shiv wrote: The US plays with India causing or depending on the number of H1 visas for the elite.

Strange definition of elites. The real elites are the folks who have Swiss bank accounts or own TV channels. H1 visa wallahs are poor laborers.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Mar 2010 07:32

Pranav wrote:
shiv wrote: The US plays with India causing or depending on the number of H1 visas for the elite.
Strange definition of elites. The real elites are the folks who have Swiss bank accounts or own TV channels. H1 visa wallahs are poor laborers.

Nothing strange. Denial onlee. This is how a huge percentage of Indian elites escape the label and pretend they are mango man equal equal with chowkidar from Bihar while waiting in H1b queue. Have it your way sir. This is (I am not sorry to say) exactly how PakRAPE pretend that they are the "real Pakistanis". This is our "inner Pakistani". Nirupama Subramaniam is more perceptive that we give her credit.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Mar 2010 07:38

shiv wrote:
Pranav wrote: Strange definition of elites. The real elites are the folks who have Swiss bank accounts or own TV channels. H1 visa wallahs are poor laborers.

Nothing strange. Denial onlee. This is how a huge percentage of Indian elites escape the label and pretend they are mango man equal equal with chowkidar from Bihar while waiting in H1b queue. Have it your way sir. This is (I am not sorry to say) exactly how PakRAPE pretend that they are the "real Pakistanis".

Fine, let us define a fellow struggling to repay loans for his car and apartment to be a member of the "elite".

Then what do we call the folks who have Swiss bank accounts or own TV channels?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Mar 2010 07:42

Pranav wrote: Then what do we call the folks who have Swiss bank accounts or own TV channels?

The Super rich. If you have a bank account AND qualify for a house loan AND have a toilet AND stand in queue to be fingerprinted by Unkil - you are already elite compared with at least 700-800 million Indians. Only denial (more likely ignorance) of the huge numbers of the latter makes you think you are mango man.

When India's miniscule elite imagine that they are mango man it is easy to think India==America

Only when 500 million Indians join the ranks of the elite will India be == or >> than America. But right now India (sadly) is ==Pakistan only. maybe a bit more. That's all.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Mar 2010 07:46

shiv wrote:
Pranav wrote: Then what do we call the folks who have Swiss bank accounts or own TV channels?
The Super rich. If you have a bank account AND qualify for a house loan AND have a toilet AND stand in queue to be fingerprinted by Unkil - you are already elite compared with at least 700-800 million Indians. Only denial (more likely ignorance) of the huge numbers of the latter makes you mango man.

This is OT.

Cannot agree with your dictionary - a fellow struggling to repay loans for a car and apartment is pretty powerless, although he may be better off than landless agricultural laborer, or a destitute lying on a footpath.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Mar 2010 07:47

Pranav wrote: Cannot agree with your dictionary - a fellow struggling to repay loans for a car and apartment is pretty powerless, although he may be better off than a destitute lying on a footpath.

No need to agree. India's performance will tell the truth no matter what you or I say.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Mar 2010 08:04

There is, I believe an element of Americanitis among Indians who either have close relatives in the US, or those who live in the US or West or travel there regularly.

"Elite" in the US is a different ball game from elite in India. The super rich of India are equal to the elite of the US.

However the ornery Joe on the street in the US, who has a car, has a mortgage on his house etc is hardly elite in the US. he is ornery unlike the homeless footpath dweller. But that is in the US.

In India most Indians are like the footpath dweller. The elite in India have home loans and cars. But since these Indian elite are only ==ornery Joe of US - they end up believing that they are ornery folks only, with home loan (oh what a burden!) and car. In India they are hardly ornery. they are elite. Only Americanitis where truth for America=truth for India can make anyone believe that a man with car and home loan in india is "ordinary" and not elite. That is only ignorance of the structure of Indian society. But that is all we are taught about India in our schools in our elite education

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Mar 2010 08:06

shiv wrote:There is, I believe an element of Americanitis among Indians who either have close relatives in the US, or those who live in the US or West or travel there regularly.

"Elite" in the US is a different ball game from elite in India. The super rich of India are equal to the elite of the US.

However the ornery Joe on the street in the US, who has a car, has a mortgage on his house etc is hardly elite in the US. he is ornery unlike the homeless footpath dweller. But that is in the US.

In India most Indians are like the footpath dweller. The elite in India have home loans and cars. But since these Indian elite are only ==ornery Joe of US - they end up believing that they are ornery folks only, with home loan (oh what a burden!) and car. In India they are hardly ornery. they are elite. Only Americanitis where truth for America=truth for india can make anyone believe that a man with car and home loan in india is "ordinary" and not elite. That is only ignorance of the structure of Indian society. But that is all we are taught about India in our schools in our elite education

"Elite" should mean those who have a have an influence on political power-structures. An individual toiling to maintain the trappings of middle-class existence certainly does not fall into that category, whether in the US or in India.