Indian Naval Discussion

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 24 Mar 2010 00:02

WTF . WTF. this is getting to be somekind of a habit.

We lost a tarantul to a collision. now we have lost a coast guard cutter that displaces over a 1000 tons!

I say brahmos the bloody ship which was responsible. With the phucking crew onboard.

That will ensure that every ****** merchant navy/ private/ whatever ship knows that there will be hell to pay.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 24 Mar 2010 01:11

There is recourse to the courts of law.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 24 Mar 2010 03:37

Indian, Indonesian navies coordinate patrols

The Indian Navy is carrying out coordinated patrolling with the Indonesian Navy as part of the 15th round of Ind-Indo CORPAT.

According to a statement issued by the Indian Navy, it has deployed INS Guldar [Landing Ship Tank (Medium)] under the command of Commander TV Sunil and INS Trinkat (Fast Attack Craft), captained by Lieutenant Commander Pushkar Kumar, to coordinate patrolling with an Indonesian Navy corvette. Both navies are also deploying a Dornier aircraft each.

The fortnight-long operation is under the overall control of Vice Admiral Devendra Kumar Joshi, Commander-in-Chief, Andaman and Nicobar Command (CINCAN) and the Commander of the Indonesian Western Fleet Command (PANGARMABAR). The Indian Navy says the units in question will be under the tactical command of the Naval Officer-in-Charge (Andaman and Nicobar) at Port Blair and the Indonesian Navy’s DANGUSKAMLABAR (Commander of Sea Security Group of the Western Fleet), located at Tanjung Pinang.

The two countries share a 300 nautical mile-long maritime boundary and the two navies conduct coordinated patrols of the International Maritime Boundary Line to prevent piracy, armed robbery, poaching, illegal immigration, drug trafficking etc.

The last Ind-Indo CORPAT was held in October-November last year. The last time the two navies met was during the 13-nation exercise, MILAN, held last month around the Andaman and Nicobar island group.

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 24 Mar 2010 05:24

D Roy wrote:WTF . WTF. this is getting to be somekind of a habit.

We lost a tarantul to a collision. now we have lost a coast guard cutter that displaces over a 1000 tons!

I say brahmos the bloody ship which was responsible. With the phucking crew onboard.

That will ensure that every ****** merchant navy/ private/ whatever ship knows that there will be hell to pay.

The name of the rammer is MV GLOBAL PURITY, eh. What happened to the merchant vessel???

The main concern should be whether this incident is purely coincidental or done on purpose!

The fault whether "accidental" or not, is not of ICGS Vivek or her crew, since it was docked. Hence MV Global Purity and her crew should not be allowed to move out of our borders before a full investigation is complete and the guilty are duly punished and the financial losses are recovered from the merchant vessels owners.

This is an international issue. Hope Government of India does not take this incident lightly and take a tough stand against the guilty. Any lapse in dealing with this incident may be taken by others as an encouragement in the future.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 24 Mar 2010 06:03

GoI? Take this seriously? Not let them get away scot free? I have a huge bridge in Rajasthan to sell you. Cheap.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 24 Mar 2010 08:48

Hi
Fellow BR members this is my first post, I’m tracing this forum past 2 years
Does anyone know the displacement of the ICA 2?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Mar 2010 08:50

WTF happened here? I have no idea of the layout but it seems ridiculous that a merchant vessel can just waltz into the naval part of the dock and ram a CG ship? Where was coastal security? And we're blaming the GOI for this?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Mar 2010 08:56

thats what happens when the dockyards are close together with no clear
separation. physical floating defences are hard to erect against a heavy ship.

for that matter what would happen if pakis hijacked a 15,000t container ship
in the arabian seas, sailed normally toward sri lanka and then makes a 90'
turn to head directly into karwar at 12 knots and slam into the naval dockyard?

what could stop them? it will sweep aside like a doll any CG ship sent to enquire. HMGs and 76mm guns wont have much impact if at all they be used
in time.

IN must declare a 100km depth no-go area around such dedicated facilities
and engage with Shore launched Brahmos/Uran any large intruders, leaving
it to FAC/CG to shred any small scale somali pirate type ship.maybe even
sea kings armed with harpoons could help (by subject to vagaries of weather
and uptime)

btw somali pirates have done the longest ever hijack recorded - 1800km
from africa more near india than africa probably using some mothership.
the hijacked vessel has turned west to somali shore now.

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Mar 2010 09:03

Sir to be honest this was a disaster waiting to happen , IN and CG have long been highlighting the dangers of sharing ports in Mumbai with civilian ships both from a security as well as operations perspective . That is why the new IN base at Karwar needs to come up asap.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Mar 2010 09:14

After so many wars with pakis we still have not gotten the message. It seems that there is no hope for us to put up an effecxtive fighting machine. We are bogged down in delays, overconfidence, over reliance on foreign products with corrupt procurement system who would sell their mother to the highest bidder. If it wasn't for the valor of our fighting men (I exclude top brass from this since they must share the blame as much as GOI for the situation), we would have lost our freedom long time ago.

amitabha.ghosh · Post by **amitabha.ghosh** » 24 Mar 2010 09:21

The CG Vessel was berthed in the MbPT area as it was under going it's first major refit and it was offloaded to a private company. Refits of smaller CG & IN vessels are offloaded to cope with the load on the Dockyards of the Navy. And all Naval docks are isolated from the merchant ports!
Its a big and unfortunate loss nevertheless .... GoI should take a very stern stand and f*&% the hell out of the pilots as well as the vessel owners.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 24 Mar 2010 09:46

any info on the 75a sub

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Mar 2010 10:36

Any possibility of salvaging the OPV?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Mar 2010 12:32

sathyaC wrote:any info on the 75a sub

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Scorpene.htm

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 24 Mar 2010 14:06

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Scorpene.htm[/quote]

it is project 75 ie Scorpene deal

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 24 Mar 2010 14:30

Navy outlines plan for N-sub

The Indian Navy is hoping to have individual say in running the nuclear submarine INS Chakra, which will be under the strategic forces command.

The strategic forces command is jointly run by the army, air force and the navy.

The Akula class nuclear sub, to be acquired from Russia on a 10- year lease, is expected to be delivered to India in six to eight months.

Sources say the submarine will be based on a coast that has the best logistical infrastructure such as maintenance facilities for a sea-based nuclear asset.

Besides, the waters near the coast would have to be sufficiently deep for the sub.

One of the key operational elements of Chakra would be to train nuclear submariners of the Indian forces, as the pool of trained navy men of the 1980s has retired by now. They were those who had cut their teeth on the first INS Chakra, a Charlie class nuclear submarine that had been leased by the Rajiv Gandhi government from Russia. That submarine was returned at the end of its lease period in 1992.

The sources say once the submarine is delivered, the strategic force would develop tactics about how best to technically exploit it. The two key roles for the sub would be to escort warships such as aircraft carriers through the seas and to counter ' enemy' ships and submarine.

Though it will be based at one of the three coasts of the country, the operational area of Chakra will be the whole of the two million square nautical miles of the Indian Ocean region.

"Its high speed of 25 knots would come into play in that kind of coverage," a source said.

The Russian origin submarine would not carry its complement of anti- ship nuclear tipped cruise missiles, Klub, because of international restrictions, but India can on its own introduce the Klubs into the sub as the country owns the missile.

The Chakra does not have vertical missile launch capacity but has the tube launch capability.

Sources say the submarine would provide valuable knowledge and training on fleet tactics of a nuclear submarine and its running that would become useful once the country's own indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant gets commissioned soon.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Mar 2010 14:45

sathyaC wrote:
it is project 75 ie Scorpene deal

Currently it appears to be vaporware as nothing has moved since the request for information for the purposes of issuing a global tender since 2008.

You should see global security.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 24 Mar 2010 15:22

tanx...............

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 24 Mar 2010 18:12

I think IAC-I should look something like this..

USS coral class ,45K t ,loaded with a possible mrca winner ,...F18

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Mar 2010 18:33

Surely there was a harbour pilot aboard the MV which rammed into the CG vessel? That's standard practice to have a pilot aboard when entering harbour.Since it was not a collision at sea,the pilot will have to tak the rap.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 24 Mar 2010 18:43

Those are not Supers......

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 24 Mar 2010 18:51

Have anyone noticed those AWACS, at least 2 are clearly visible, but I guess there are more then two... do we have any plan to have these on IAC-1 or later ones??

I know currently we have only one and one coming online soon ... but there was news the local produce AWACS will start trials in 2012 or so but we are also not getting IAC-1, 2 before 2015... I expect IN has better planning and management then rest of the servies.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Mar 2010 19:04

RKumar wrote:Have anyone noticed those AWACS, at least 2 are clearly visible, but I guess there are more then two... do we have any plan to have these on IAC-1 or later ones??

I know currently we have only one and one coming online soon ... but there was news the local produce AWACS will start trials in 2012 or so but we are also not getting IAC-1, 2 before 2015... I expect IN has better planning and management then rest of the servies.

Indigenous AEW&C systems are for the IAF not the IN. The US had offered the E2-D Hawkeye to the IN but those aircraft (same ones in the picture) are too big for our STOBAR carriers.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Mar 2010 19:09

coral sea was a steam turbine and not CVN? if so, it is proven that even CV can have steam capapults powerful enough to launch E2.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 24 Mar 2010 19:44

nachiket wrote:Indigenous AEW&C systems are for the IAF not the IN. The US had offered the E2-D Hawkeye to the IN but those aircraft (same ones in the picture) are too big for our STOBAR carriers.

Thanks for the info... lets do improvements step wise then one big bang...

First get IAC-1/2 then we can plan to introduce Hawkeye/AEW&C/AWACS etc. with IAC-3/4

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 Mar 2010 20:11

Vivek K wrote:Any possibility of salvaging the OPV?

She will be salvaged and be back in service in less than 24 months as per news reports.

Wonder who will foot the bill?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Mar 2010 21:18

normally these ships are held through company structures that limit the losses of owners via various loopholes. same way the parent co of a Mutual fund does the paperwork to really
wash its hands off if things dont work out and makes you sign it.

no doubt the GOI will have to pay. every piece of electrical gear after dousing in salt water
will need to be replaced.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 24 Mar 2010 22:08

>>>Wonder who will foot the bill?

The insurance Company of the merchant vessel ofcourse, after the deductions.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 24 Mar 2010 23:18

Indian Navy delays sailing into new era of ‘invisible’ warships

INS Shivalik, the first of 12 Shivalik-class vessels, will be commissioned “by the second week of April,”

said Parvez Panthaky, spokesperson of Mazagon Dock Ltd,

Two more Shivalik-class frigates, INS Satpura and INS Sahyadri, “will be commissioned within a few months of each other,”

he said.

The Indian Navy has once again deferred the induction of a new class of indigenously built stealth frigates, the latest in a series of delays stretching over five years.

Ankit

Fani_A · Post by **Fani_A** » 24 Mar 2010 23:50

regarding the collision, i note that FIR has been filed... RTI can be used to follow up if anyone wants to...

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 25 Mar 2010 03:08

Cross Posting from Intelligence & National Security Discussion thread

Will the Indian Ocean Become the Next Arena of Great Power Conflict?

The length and delicacy of such a journey makes protection of this vital shipping lifeline a fundamental security priority for China. That India, hoping to project its power throughout the Indian Ocean region, has embarked on a naval buildup only adds to the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Navy’s (PLAN) sense of urgency regarding sovereignty over its sea lines of communication.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Mar 2010 08:12

Zvezdochka to upgrade fifth Indian diesel electric sub

Zvezdochka Ship Repair Center (Severodvinsk) will upgrade fifth diesel electric submarine of Indian Navy, reported the shipyard's press service.

According to the shipyard' director Vladimir Nikitin, "right now, department of military technical cooperation intensively prepares to that event. All contractual docs have been sent to Delhi. Next come complicated price talks".

Zvezdochka experts have already performed troubleshooting and certification of Project 877EKM diesel electric sub Sindurakshak (stands for "Sea Giant"), developed and coordinated repair documents with the customer. The sub is to be transferred to Severodvinsk in June.

Specialized in repair and utilization of nuclear subs, Zvezdochka shipyard has upgraded four diesel electric subs by order of Indian Navy. The shipyard experts also perform overhaul and modernization of similar submarine – INS Sindukirti – at her basing site, Vishakhapatnam, India.

All those Russian-built subs are of Project 887EKM (on NATO classification – Kilo) designed by Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering (St. Petersburg). They are used for antisubmarine and antisurface warfare as well as for defense of naval bases, coastal and sea lanes, reconnaissance and patrol activities. Such submarines have displacement of 2,300 tons; length of 72.6 meters; submerged speed of 19 knots (about 35 kph); diving depth of 300 meters; crew of 52 men; endurance of 45 days. Kilo-class submarines are armed with six 533-mm torpedo tubes.

In the course of modernization submarines are equipped with present-day Russian cruise missile system Club-S with operating range of about 200 km, new Indian sonar equipment and radio communication systems.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 25 Mar 2010 14:15

Submarine programmers top SE Asian wish lists
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jni/j ... _1_n.shtml

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Mar 2010 17:49

this was the island over which India and BD had a quarrel.

* New Moore Island disappears

STAFF WRITER 11:26 HRS IST

Kolkata, Mar 25 (PTI) About 90 per cent of the New Moore Island that surfaced in the Bay of Bengal in the aftermath of Bhola cyclone in 1970 have submerged as per satellite images collected by the Jadavpur University.

"Satellite images have confirmed that about 90 per cent of the Island, about three km long and 3.5 km wide, have submerged," sources in the School of Oceanography Studies of the University said here today.

Local fishermen had also confirmed the disappearance of a major part of the Island, they said.

A study team will shortly visit the remaining part of the Island to physically assess the situation.

A major portion of the Island, that emerged on the confluence of the rivers Ichhamati and Rai Mangal, has disappeared because of rising sea level, coastal erosion, spate of cyclones and global warming, they said.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 25 Mar 2010 20:10

Austin wrote:Zvezdochka experts have already performed troubleshooting and certification of Project 877EKM diesel electric sub Sindurakshak (stands for "Sea Giant"), developed and coordinated repair documents with the customer.

Sindhurakhsak does not stand for 'Sea Giant'. It stands for 'Protector of the Sea'. If it was Sindhu'rakshas' then maybe.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 25 Mar 2010 23:09

Shameek wrote: Sindhurakhsak does not stand for 'Sea Giant'. It stands for 'Protector of the Sea'. If it was Sindhu'rakshas' then maybe.

No sir, then it would mean sea monster not sea giant...

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 26 Mar 2010 08:02

Indian Navy delays sailing into new era of ‘invisible’ warships

New Delhi: The Indian Navy has once again deferred the induction of a new class of indigenously built stealth frigates, the latest in a series of delays stretching over five years.

Once commissioned, the hard-to-detect warships will form a crucial component in India’s bid to build a blue-water navy capable of operating across oceans, defence analysts said. But the delays in induction reflect the need for “stronger political will” to carry the process through, analysts said.

INS Shivalik, the first of 12 Shivalik-class vessels, will be commissioned “by the second week of April,” said Parvez Panthaky, spokesperson of Mazagon Dock Ltd, which is building the ship in Mumbai. “The commissioning date is being finalized with the navy.”

Two more Shivalik-class frigates, INS Satpura and INS Sahyadri, “will be commissioned within a few months of each other,” he said.

In January, when a model of the 4,800-tonne INS Shivalik was showcased in the Republic Day Parade, the navy had announced that the ship would be commissioned in March. The project, envisaged way back in 1997, was initially scheduled for commissioning in 2005.Stealth frigates have advanced features designed to reduce a warship’s signature.

“INS Shivalik has stealth features against radar and heat seekers,” a senior naval officer told Mint on condition of anonymity. “Its underwater signatures are also reduced through technical means.”The navy already has three Talwar-class stealth frigates, bought from Russia. But the Shivalik-class vessels are being built entirely in India.

Shivalik-class vessels have both air and anti-submarine capability and are fitted with a mix of Indian, Russian, Israeli and Western weapons. This includes Club anti-ship missiles, Shtil surface-to-air missiles, Barak air and missile defence systems and RBU 6000 anti-submarine warfare rockets. They will carry two advanced helicopters each.

Powered by gas and diesel turbines, the ships are capable of speeds in excess of 30 knots (55.5km) per hour. The cost of building each ship will be close to Rs2,500 crore, the officer said.

Sweden and France were the original builders of stealth ships, followed by Russia. While most major navies are now buying the ships from those countries, India is among the few developing them on its own.The Union cabinet approved the navy’s so-called Project 17 to construct the 12 stealth frigates almost 13 years ago. The navy ordered the first three vessels in 1999 and the construction of INS Shivalik was launched in 2003, while INS Satpura and INS Sahyadri began in 2004 and 2005, respectively.

Deba Ranjan Mohanty, defence analyst and author of Arming the Indian Arsenal, said the Indian stealth frigates were on a par with the best in the world. But he added the navy needed at least 36 stealth frigates and destroyers in the next 10-15 years.

“Blue-water navies require longer reach. Frigates and destroyers are essential. We should be able to acquire two more aircraft carriers in the same period, and at least one of them should be indigenously built,” said Mohanty, senior fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, New Delhi.

The US, the UK, Russia and France are widely regarded as having true blue-water navies, while Italy, Spain, Canada, China and Australia have limited blue-water capabilities.

Both Mohanty and the naval officer said the development of the frigates was “capability-oriented” or driven by India’s increasing maritime responsibilities and interests, rather than the result of a threat perception.“India’s aspirations are a blend of both offensive and defensive capabilities—offensive for force projection and defensive for constructive purposes,” said Mohanty.

The commissioning of INS Shivalik would raise eyebrows in Pakistan, which has no stealth frigates, and China, which has a fleet of around 30 such warships, he added.“China is very closely watching the development, though it won’t make any noise about it. We may hear some reactions from Pakistan,” Mohanty said.

He added Pakistan’s navy has been acquiring advanced submarines such as the Agosta 90B, and may also try to induct stealth frigates in future as a response to India’s soon-to-be-augmented capability.The Chinese and Pakistani missions in New Delhi declined to comment on the issue.The delay in INS Shivalik’s commissioning reflected the need for the defence agenda to remain constant, regardless of political change.
“Priorities should be consistent,” he said. “The sanction for such programmes should be continuous.”

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 26 Mar 2010 08:41

Took 7 years to build Shivalik? Is that a normal timeframe?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Mar 2010 08:48

Carl_T wrote:Took 7 years to build Shivalik? Is that a normal timeframe?

By MDL and Indian SY standards Yes

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 26 Mar 2010 08:56

Bala Vignesh wrote:No sir, then it would mean sea monster not sea giant...

True, sea monster or sea demon. I was just wondering how they got the giant part.