PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

[sumshyam]

It's a double trainer(1 instructer + 2 trainee) i guess...........russians have no limits on innovation

Has it really been made....I think it is just an artistic impression..isn't that..?

[Carl_T]

I think they were just smoking when they drew that.

[nachiket]

Its just an Artist's imagination gone wild. We won't be seeing a three seater PAK-FA because it makes no practical sense. I don't think it is even physically possible to build a three seater version of the PAK-FA.

[Samay]

The third one will be a press reporter

[bodhi]

It's a double trainer(1 instructer + 2 trainee) i guess...........russians have no limits on innovation

read this thread properly...just a few pages before and you will know what this is

[Indranil]

Please notice that fowler flaps are used for slow speeds for decreasing stall speeds. But I notice your usage of "like"

Dear Roy, If you take any primer on anything related to Aero, it tells you that, fowler flaps provides more lift than drag. You take the help of your aeronautics friend and can tell us why elevator is in the same plane wrt wing in F22 why it is above in F-35 and why it is below in F-18...

sirjee ...we are on the same page. I didnt question your explanation. I just posed a question whether the airflow will be the same in both cases. An affirmative answer to that will only corroborate your theory. I am sorry if my post has conveyed otherwise. We both have provided information about the fowler flap. I see no posts contradicting each other

I don't know whether our discussion makes sense now given Rakall's wonderful description about how modern day plane would use the elevators as only control surfaces and not auto-pitch-stabilizers. I remember seeing such airflow diagrams too and now feel foolish not to have factored it in while posting before.

[sumshyam]

New image from Paralay:: -

[Anoop. A.]

Has it really been made....I think it is just an artistic impression..isn't that..?

Sumshyam, it's a photoshop job done by some light hearted fellow. But most certainly not a bad imagination.

read this thread properly...just a few pages before and you will know what this is

Bodhi, I certainly know what this is and hence the smilie " ".

[bodhi]

^^^... My Bad

[Kanson]

sirjee ...we are on the same page. I didnt question your explanation. I just posed a question whether the airflow will be the same in both cases. An affirmative answer to that will only corroborate your theory. I am sorry if my post has conveyed otherwise. We both have provided information about the fowler flap. I see no posts contradicting each other

I don't know whether our discussion makes sense now given Rakall's wonderful description about how modern day plane would use the elevators as only control surfaces and not auto-pitch-stabilizers. I remember seeing such airflow diagrams too and now feel foolish not to have factored it in while posting before.

Roy, here the tailplane acts as both lift generating surface and 'stabilator'. In the case of 'stabilator', the angle needed is not too steep, it postpones the stall and extreme cases can be handled by thrust vectoring engine. So the answer to your Q is "yes" as far i know. If i'm the chief desginer, i would have given the answer as thundering yes. Unfortunately i'm not. Pls do away with sirjee etc..I only try to indicate your info on fowler flap may not be fully correct, maybe i havent read your post properly. Yes, that was a good description from Rakall, but why would you not share more info/pics/air flow dia etc on this.

[neerajb]

but in case of a F22 or PAKFA where it is predominantly flown by FBW computer -- horizontal stabilizer's contribution to stability can be dispensed with..

Almost all modern fly by wire fighters are unstable design, so, no negative lift from tail. Infact the tail plane of F-16s provide +ve lift which contributes to the overall lift and hence smaller main wing and lesser drag ( drag to counter the nose down pitching moment + bigger wing drag) than conventional stable configuration.

Remember the MKI is neutral stable but PAK FA is upto 12% unstable in pitch, which explains the inline elevator configuration.

Cheers....

[Gaur]

^^
MKI is not neutral stable. Its static instability is 5% to 6%.

[sumshyam]

Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft has proved that he does not need major enhancements

Tests of promising aviation complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA) are successful, said Tuesday the "Interfax" a source in the military-industrial complex. To date, T-50 fighter jet has successfully completed six test flights, the source said.

Program flight tests PAK FA is in accordance with the schedule, said the representative of the military-industrial complex. Fighter fully confirms the claimed characteristics, and this means that some serious modifications aircraft structure is required.

"The new machine is highly manoeuvrable and good handling in flight" - the spokesman said. He noted that the front of an extensive program of flight tests, the results of which will be judged on the actual flight-technical and combat capabilities of the fifth generation fighter.

Fifth generation fighter aircraft - a plane with artificial intelligence.

[sumshyam]

@ neerajb and Gaur.

Sir, where from instability data come........?

[Gaur]

^^
Search 2-3 pages back on this thread. It was posted here sometime back.

[neerajb]

^^
MKI is not neutral stable. Its static instability is 5% to 6%.

My bad actually Vanilla Su-27 is neutral stable, MKI 5-6% and PAK FA 12%.

Cheers....

[Indranil]

Roy, here the tailplane acts as both lift generating surface and 'stabilator'. In the case of 'stabilator', the angle needed is not too steep, it postpones the stall and extreme cases can be handled by thrust vectoring engine. So the answer to your Q is "yes" as far i know. If i'm the chief desginer, i would have given the answer as thundering yes. Unfortunately i'm not. Pls do away with sirjee etc..I only try to indicate your info on fowler flap may not be fully correct, maybe i havent read your post properly. Yes, that was a good description from Rakall, but why would you not share more info/pics/air flow dia etc on this.

I spoke to some friends of mine here from the aerospace department. Though they are all PhD students, their field of studies are different. But they all said that they would get back to me after speaking to the guys in this field. I know a few guys who build aeromodels and a team which is building a 2-seater. Would ask them too! Will share the information too.

Though the guys I asked didnt give a complete answer. They said that conventionally elevators would be placed higher than the wake of the downwash of the wing. However, an inline arrangement is sometimes done to add spin recovery. This made sense to me. Obviously, here the stabilators would not be acting in unison for pitch control. They would be acting like aelirons (i.e. pointed in opposite directions to create the torque against the spin). For most effictive spin recovery, the direction of the torque should pass through the centre of mass, and hence the inlinement!

However I am waiting for the complete answer and post it whenever I come to know of it!

[sumshyam]

R&D for the new canopy

As reported on April 2 REGNUM correspondent news, according to local newspaper "NG-region, Obninsk, scientists have begun work in 2000 as a result of comprehensive research and development of a new type of aircraft glazing. Its multi-functional coating protects the crew from the effects of external factors and increase the performance characteristics of modern combat air vehicles.

Orginal

[sumshyam]

Fifth generation fighter aircraft was delivered to the Zhukovsky to continue the program of ground and flight tests

Moscow, April 8. Today from Komsomolsk-na-Amur in the military-transport aircraft of Russian Air Force AN-124 "Ruslan" on the airfield Flight Research Institute. Gromov in Zhukovsky near Moscow, delivered the first flight model aviation complex of the fifth generation (PAK FA), as well as an integrated ground tests, which is carried out working out the equipment and systems in support of the program of flight tests.

After assembly fighter Sukhoi will continue in late April - early May flight tests. In the integrated simulator will be of the systems and equipment the aircraft.

Currently, successfully completed the first phase of testing, which consisted of six flights, during which an assessment of stability and controllability of the aircraft, engine and major systems and substantially increase the range of speeds and altitudes test of a fighter. Compared with previous generations of fighters, PAK FA has number of unique features, combining the functions of attack aircraft and fighter. The aircraft is equipped with a fifth-generation an entirely new set of avionics, the integrating function of the "e-pilot", and promising radar with a phased array.

This greatly reduces the load on the pilot and can concentrate on the implementation of tactical tasks. On-board equipment of the new aircraft allows the exchange of data in real time as a land-management systems, and within the aviation group. The use of composites and innovative technology, aerodynamic design plane, measures to reduce the visibility engine provides unprecedented low level of radar, optical, and infrared visibility. This can greatly increase the combat effectiveness in the work, both by air and ground targets, at any time of day, in simple and adverse weather conditions.

Original

[sumshyam]

Creating an engine for the fifth generation fighter postponing

"Salute" declares victory

On the first phase of the tender "cookie" is told in the Air Force and the "Salute." "We participated and" Saturn ", - says Director of Information Technology" Salute "Dmitry Eliseev. - Pre-tender consisted of two phases. Salyut performed work on both. In the summer of last year received the Commission's opinion, which says that we have fulfilled requirements of both phases of the contest without reproach. "Saturn" the first stage carried out with serious criticism, and the second stage did not comply.

The second stage of the tender Defense has not yet been announced. Maybe someone at the top think that after the" Saturn "became part of the JDC, the question of the creator of the engine for the PAK FA decided to automatically" - complains Representative "Salute". The company believes this approach is wrong and going to continue to insist on holding the contest to determine who will act as the lead developer engine for fifth-generation fighter.

"We understand that the general management of the development work on the engine for the PAK FA will be for the JDC, but we also believe that the tender is required to even determine who will build a gas generator for the future of the engine, and on this basis to decide who will be the ideology of work over the engine for the PAK FA "- contains the position of his company Dmitry Eliseev.

In the KLA believe that the solution must take the Defense Ministry

Today's development of "Salute" - it is in any case, upgrading the engine of the fourth generation of the AL-31, reminiscent of the KLA. The prototype of the PAK FA aircraft experienced now fitted with an engine 117, which also represents a modification of the AL-31, performed Saturn. "The engines of the fifth generation are presented fundamentally different requirements, in particular in terms of radiozametnosti and visibility in the infrared range," - says Director of Corporate Communications KLA Konstantin Lantratov.

In the KLA admit that the Defense Ministry did not announce the final stage of the tender for the right to create an engine for the PAK FA is awaiting test results from the current aircraft engine. Representatives of the Ministry is something to think about. Do I need to do fifth-generation engine for the PAK FA right now? Is not it better to concentrate on production of engines for aircraft, which will monitor the PAK FA? If you start to drive today, for its production will require 5-7 years, it is in these terms is expected emergence modernizirovannnoy versions of the PAK FA.

"Decide to be the Defense Ministry - says Lantratov. - There will be whether they have money now to pay for the development of a new engine? Also need to assess possible risks: Is there a belief that the customer gets exactly the result which counts, it is in those terms? "

Experts say no hurry

"Defense is really nowhere to hurry - said deputy director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, Konstantin Makiyenko. - Those deeply modernized engines fourth generation, which is a" Saturn "and" Salute ", now meet the needs of the Air Force, including providing the needs of the PAK FA, on At least on the test stage. "

The need for this engine is the fifth generation - by weight, dimensions, specific, technical characteristics - will be really about 10 years, experts say. In this sense, while at the Ministry of Defense is, because the need for a capacity of traction and other characteristics of the engine will arise when there are heavier versions of the aircraft - two-seater that is optimized under the shock problem, perhaps by basing on aircraft carriers. And also a version for India, optimized for high-altitude and high temperature conditions.

"In general - continues to Makienko - there is such a pattern: aviation complex in the process of life - he lived from 30 to 50 years - on average heavier by 1% per year. That is, through its life cycle traction necessary to increase by 30-50% . Therefore, increasing the energy capacity of the engine will be relevant not before 2020, when they start to appear heavy-weight version of the aircraft.

Original

[Indranil]

I spoke to some friends of mine here from the aerospace department. Though they are all PhD students, their field of studies are different. But they all said that they would get back to me after speaking to the guys in this field. I know a few guys who build aeromodels and a team which is building a 2-seater. Would ask them too! Will share the information too.

Though the guys I asked didnt give a complete answer. They said that conventionally elevators would be placed higher than the wake of the downwash of the wing. However, an inline arrangement is sometimes done to add spin recovery. This made sense to me. Obviously, here the stabilators would not be acting in unison for pitch control. They would be acting like aelirons (i.e. pointed in opposite directions to create the torque against the spin). For most effictive spin recovery, the direction of the torque should pass through the centre of mass, and hence the inlinement!

However I am waiting for the complete answer and will post it whenever I come to know of it!

Sorry for the delay ... but some more information trickling in ... I am still waiting on a few more guys to reply.

[qoute] (For) any aircraft lift is proportional to square of the velocity and proportional to the coefficient of lift. The bottomline is the phenomenon is interlinked with a lot of factors as in if you want more roll or more lift, if it has more downwash or not etc. In the case of high speed aircrafts(which is our case here) the vel is high, hence for the same lift we dont need as much CL. so the tail elevator which is sometimes a major contributor for lift is not required as much to generate lift . also in such high speeds it is required to perform less effectively as a small change in the position of the elevator can cause huge direction changes in the flight . it will drastically reduce the longitudinal stability of the vehicle. so at high speeds the lesser the effectiveness of the tail the better. so the least effective position is by placing it along the line of the wing. Secondly the downwash is very low in high speed so the elevator position doesnt matter as much. [/qoute]

As I said I am still waiting for some other guys to reply. Since they are researchers in different fields, they have to ask people around them and hence the delay!

[karthik]

I spoke to some friends of mine here from the aerospace department. Though they are all PhD students, their field of studies are different. But they all said that they would get back to me after speaking to the guys in this field. I know a few guys who build aeromodels and a team which is building a 2-seater. Would ask them too! Will share the information too.

Though the guys I asked didnt give a complete answer. They said that conventionally elevators would be placed higher than the wake of the downwash of the wing. However, an inline arrangement is sometimes done to add spin recovery. This made sense to me. Obviously, here the stabilators would not be acting in unison for pitch control. They would be acting like aelirons (i.e. pointed in opposite directions to create the torque against the spin). For most effictive spin recovery, the direction of the torque should pass through the centre of mass, and hence the inlinement!

However I am waiting for the complete answer and will post it whenever I come to know of it!

Sorry for the delay ... but some more information trickling in ... I am still waiting on a few more guys to reply.

[qoute] (For) any aircraft lift is proportional to square of the velocity and proportional to the coefficient of lift. The bottomline is the phenomenon is interlinked with a lot of factors as in if you want more roll or more lift, if it has more downwash or not etc. In the case of high speed aircrafts(which is our case here) the vel is high, hence for the same lift we dont need as much CL. so the tail elevator which is sometimes a major contributor for lift is not required as much to generate lift . also in such high speeds it is required to perform less effectively as a small change in the position of the elevator can cause huge direction changes in the flight . it will drastically reduce the longitudinal stability of the vehicle. so at high speeds the lesser the effectiveness of the tail the better. so the least effective position is by placing it along the line of the wing. Secondly the downwash is very low in high speed so the elevator position doesnt matter as much. [/qoute]

As I said I am still waiting for some other guys to reply. Since they are researchers in different fields, they have to ask people around them and hence the delay!

\

Did you notice the leading edge of the elevator is before the flaps? Its scooping the flow right of the wing and not waiting for the second hand dirty flow as in Su-30MKI.

[Indranil]

Did you notice the leading edge of the elevator is before the flaps? Its scooping the flow right of the wing and not waiting for the second hand dirty flow as in Su-30MKI.

Yes I did, when you had first posted about that observation. Infact, that is the case with the F-22 and the F-35 as well! I dont know whether that was to get "clean" air to the elevators. It could be a by product of the wing design.

[Speculation Alert ON]
Inspite of the lifting bodies, the wings of these fifth gen planes are not small to keep the wing loading low. On top of this there is a requirement to super cruise. So it makes sense to push the wing as farther back as possible to maintain maximum distance from the mach cone. Add to this the fact that the internal bays are now more or less around the engines and thus the CG for a loaded plane is going to be more backward. So it makes sense for the engineers to push the wings, and hence the centre of lift backward. And hence the intersection of the wing and the elevators
[Speculation alert OFF]

Also notice that almost half of the elevator will still be in the "dirty" region. This part is actually further away from the axis of the plane and is supposed to create the maximum torque. So to put it in short, I still don't know the answer to the level of satisfaction I would have loved to!

Meanwhile another friend got back to me

actually i didn't get much into the elevator issue...... i talked to my major prof.. he said that these characteristics are really hard to know as army/air-force don't open it..even its hard for the prof working in design unless he is in that program..... he actually said that he will ask this thing from one of his colleague from army research group... ... lets see when he gets back to me on this..

[karthik]

Yes I did, when you had first posted about that observation. Infact, that is the case with the F-22 and the F-35 as well! I dont know whether that was to get "clean" air to the elevators. It could be a by product of the wing design.

[Speculation Alert ON]
Inspite of the lifting bodies, the wings of these fifth gen planes are not small to keep the wing loading low. On top of this there is a requirement to super cruise. So it makes sense to push the wing as farther back as possible to maintain maximum distance from the mach cone. Add to this the fact that the internal bays are now more or less around the engines and thus the CG for a loaded plane is going to be more backward. So it makes sense for the engineers to push the wings, and hence the centre of lift backward. And hence the intersection of the wing and the elevators

That would be the case with the F-22, its elevator is placed much after the exhaust may be to balance the CG as you said but the FGFA has none of it. May be in future models they will move the elevator further back. At the moment with its compound canard it looks to be a nose heavy plain rather than an tail heavy one like Su-30.

Its a bit cruder than the F-22 in close scrutiny but i am sure there are loads of tinkering to come around.

[Speculation alert OFF]

Also notice that almost half of the elevator will still be in the "dirty" region. This part is actually further away from the axis of the plane and is supposed to create the maximum torque. So to put it in short, I still don't know the answer to the level of satisfaction I would have loved to!

Meanwhile another friend got back to me

actually i didn't get much into the elevator issue...... i talked to my major prof.. he said that these characteristics are really hard to know as army/air-force don't open it..even its hard for the prof working in design unless he is in that program..... he actually said that he will ask this thing from one of his colleague from army research group... ... lets see when he gets back to me on this..

IMO its meant for low angle of attacks when the flow is not laminar and more over with TVC nozzles i am sure it has more than enough tail lift.

During laminar flow the air scooped from the leading edge may be made to pan out under the elevator with the help of spoiler(may be). I haven't noticed any though.

Mean while the MCA wind tunnel model does not seem to incorporate this understanding.

[Kersi D]

The third one will be a press reporter

Could it be for somebody form KGB or CIA ?

K

[shukla]

Premier Putin satisfied with Russian fifth-generation fighter tests

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said he was satisfied with the tests of a Russian fifth-generation fighter jet. "Flight tests of the fifth-generation fighter are continuing successfully," Putin said. "Once again I want to thank everyone who worked on this machine, as well as those who are now putting it in the air," the premier continued.

[shukla]

Russian firms competing for FGFA engine development contract

Three Russian firms are in race to develop advanced engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) to be jointly produced by India and Russia. The 'block 2' engine would be developed in five-six years and the preliminary R&D is being carried out by Moscow-based NPO Saturn, Salyut and St Petersburg-based Klimov Plant, specialising on the fighter aircraft engines.

"The winner of the tender will have to provide the engine for 'putting under the wing' after 5-6 years," Managing Director of NPO Saturn Ilya Fyodorov was quoted as saying by ITAR-TASS.

Although the airframe of the fighter would be of the Russian design, it would be further developed with the contribution of Indian experts and engineers, who would provide composite materials for the hull and 'artificial intellect' for the FGFA. According to sources, Russia would begin the induction of single seater fighter beginning from 2015, while the twin seater jet designed exclusively for the IAF is expected to be inducted from 2017 onwards.

[b_patel]

Credit to Medal64 at KeyPub for finding the link!
http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2010/04/27/194329.html

Read the full article its about the new PAK FA engines. But the quoted part is the most interesting part! It seems we might actually get a Raptorski in the end! Thankfully Russia has realized how overrated 3D TVC is, and that suppressing the IR emissions is much more important.

The engine of the first phase for the PAK FA is built entirely on the traditional scheme. In particular, deprived of such characteristic elements as a flat nozzle, available from a competitor of our car - F-22. However, according to Eugene Marchukova, work in the field of exhaust systems are maintained. At the stage production of technical documentation are the development of a flat nozzle and the reverse.

From the viewpoint of gas dynamics of a planar nozzle clear disadvantages because when you create the need to make the transition from a circular section (engine) on the flat.Loss of traction at the same time can be 5-7 per cent.The advantage of only one thing - providing heat invisibility by closing the turbine blades flat.This mode is used is limited: it is switched on for 5-10 minutes to overcome the enemy's air defense system. To solve this problem, such losses are allowed. But the designers of Saturn are trying to minimize the loss of up to 2-3 per cent.

[Austin]

The Flat Nozzle news if true , indicates Russian willingness to develop an all aspect stealth variant of PAK-FA , although 3D nozzle is what we may see for the initial production model.

[sunnyv]

This translation thing always confuses me.

What did they mean by " At the stage production of technical documentation are the development of a flat nozzle and the reverse".

If i get it- Reverser's meant TVC?????
One of the F15 SMTD had tested TVC/Thrust reverser and then this idea was finally dropped.

I think Salyut has already been chosen as Winner(From the same site) - Are they up for Flat nozzle thing instead of current design. This above statement comes from Saturn Chief ????????

If they plan to test the Production model on 117 , this Flat Nozzle integration is for which stage of aircraft.
Wont it require major modifications in intakes .

Gurus -Plz shed some light of Knowledge and Understanding of this translated article.

[Dmurphy]

Rivals Join for Next Stage of PAK FA Engine

Russia's two engine manufacturers are to collaborate on the next stage of engine development for the Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter after years of going head-to-head as rivals.

The Moscow-based Salut and United Engine Corp. (UEC) have agreed to work jointly on the so-called second-stage engine for the T-50 being developed to meet the air force's PAK FA requirement. NPO Saturn, now part of UEC, and Salut have been competing for this program for several years, with designs known as Eniseysk-A and Eniseysk-B, respectively.

According to senior UEC executives, the workshare on the engine to replace the T-50's current Saturn 117 will slightly favor the corporation: UEC will have 54%, and Salut the remainder.

The decision to collaborate is driven at least in part by the likely merger of the two engine producers.

[Austin]

The baby has flown from Gromov Flight test center ( via AFM/QuadroFX )

[Austin]

High Res Photo of PAK-FA ( via Otaku )

PAK-FA 1

PAK-FA 2

PAK-FA 3

[rkhanna]

Rivals Join for Next Stage of PAK FA Engine

Russia's two engine manufacturers are to collaborate on the next stage of engine development for the Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter after years of going head-to-head as rivals.

.....

PAK-FA and IR reduction tech.

http://www.royfc.com/acft_news.html

Long Story short the PAK-FA will have the same flat nozzles like the F-22. They are trying to figure out how to avoid the thrust reduction by the flat nozzles (as in the case of the F-22)

[Gaur]

More pics of PAK-FA:
http://spotters.net.ua/files/images/000 ... large.jpeg
http://spotters.net.ua/files/images/000 ... large.jpeg

[Bharadwaj]

High Res Photo of PAK-FA ( via Otaku )

PAK-FA 1

PAK-FA 2

PAK-FA 3

The sweetest looking bird-The enemy pilots can only admire through photos...They will never see her . From a fanboy perspective I hope the news of a few single seat birds for IAF is true- A big canopy will ruin the aesthetics.

[Akshut]

After a bit of photoshop, without wheels..

[Cain Marko]

KHATARNAAK!!

CM

[VishalJ]

...................And then she had a registration #51



More here - http://photo.strizhi.info/v/airwolf/air ... rwolf_001/

[b_patel]

The Flat Nozzle news if true , indicates Russian willingness to develop an all aspect stealth variant of PAK-FA , although 3D nozzle is what we may see for the initial production model.

If Saturn/Salyut (whoever finally designs the engines) can get the engine done on time, the flat nozzles would provide the 3D TVC. I realized that the flat nozzles aren't what limit the F-22 to 2D TVC but its the room the nozzles have to rotate. Since the PAK-FA's engines are much farther apart they should be able to rotate in 3D, they would have the space to do so. But the initial production models might have the iris shaped nozzles.



I got this image off of KeyPub, the highlighted regions are pretty much weapons bays for short range missiles. If you look at the non-zoomed bay on the right it looks like you can see the line for the weapons bay door. I definitely looks like it from this angle. Originally i thought it might be for additional EW equipment. But the additional weapons bay is a much better use for the space. What do you guys think?