Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 Apr 2010 07:57

Vishwamitra wrote:
Rahul M wrote:20 R-77's ?!
it will have all the agility of a truck with that load ! it will be a dead duck if it needs to get into a dogfight. the drag will be massive and not to mention that so many missiles are not needed in an engagement.

a similar question will be why does not a soldier go to battle with 5000 rounds in stead of the usual few hundreds ?
Because a soldier cannot carry 5000 rounds. Rambha should be able to carry ~3 tons of armaments, right

Forget 20, even 12-14 missiles would have an adverse effect on the maneuvering abilities of the aircraft. Besides, not not all hardpoints on an aircraft have the same weight limitations. For example the wingtip hardpoints on a Su-30 can only carry small missiles like the R-73 or R-60, not the R-77. The under-belly hardpoints and the ones near to the fuselage can carry larger ordnance. And carrying 20 R-77s would make the aircraft exceed the MTOW for sure.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 09 Apr 2010 08:05

Got it! thank you. I always wondered about this...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2010 08:24

nachiket, it will not exceed the MTOW. R-77 weighs < 200kg.

vm saar, 1000 then ? that a soldier can carry right, obviously difficult to do so but just about possible ? the reason why 20 AAMs are not carried on a platform like mki is because for one, it's not practical.
with modern ECM's, decoys and highly maneuverable aircraft, missiles like R-77 or AMRAAM do not give 100% guarantee of kill, at the speed and distance which these encounters take place, a first round miss on either side will quickly see the situation progress to a knife-fight or merge as it is called. all those long/medium range missiles will then be a liability rather than an asset.IOW, you will not get time to fire off all those missiles before the air-battle progresses to a dogfight.
moreover that many external appendages seriously compromises the aerodynamic qualities of an aircraft, increasing drag and increasing fuel consumption (thereby reducing range).

I suppose you are aware that fighters drop their A2G ordnance and EFT in case they are bounced by enemy fighters ? so that they can have the best possible agility.

a more realistic load-out for the MKI will be (say) 6-8 R-77 + 4 R-73. unlike most other fighters, MKI can maintain decent agility even with this "heavy" load-out.

most fighters will go up in A2A config loaded out with at most 2 SRAAM +4 MRAAM.

incidentally, some of these problems will be negated in case of internal carriage of missiles. there was a proposal called the B-1R based on the B-1B bomber for USAF but that was never accepted for development.

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 10 Apr 2010 00:22

shiv wrote:
Ashish J wrote: More apt qustion wud be,,,How would India reply if LeT gets hold of(with help of Pak State), all of its nuclear weapns and threaten India 2 vacate Kashmir,,,,
This scenario is most likely,,rather than they trying to ship nukes into India(Y wud they need 2 ship it to India???)

Can you tell me what is the difference between the LeT and the Paki army and how LeT control of nukes will make any difference to India?

No diff btwn Pak Army and Let .Thats precisly i have stated (witrh help of PAk state)
But Pak wud never make that threat officially, but using a proxy like LeT , they cud wash off there hands of it comparatively easily...That was my point...

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 10 Apr 2010 00:41

Just saw a debate on NDTV about Naxalism, A BJP, a Congress representative, a couple of other guys were there,, including a man who was initially introduced as “Human Rights Activists”,,but during the debate started saying “We will do this, we will do that”, while referring to Naxals.

My question is that,, why cant we get rid of these Naxals spokesperson,,so called “Intellectuals” behind bars without any media access???
And what exactly is Arundhati Roy’s problem,,has she gone mad after winning Booker’s Prize??
I mean “Democracy is a big scam”,,acc to her,,then what is Communism in countries like China and North Korea???Liberation??

“Naxals are Gandhis with Guns”???
And I am superman who cant fly..isnt it…
Naxals want to take control of India,,they have said so clearly,,,so according to her we should let them have it..Also TSP wants Kashmir,,so we shud hand it over to them..Ok, we r buying 2 many weapons acc to her and shud nt do this,,we shud actually let china pick any piece of us and enjoy it..
Why doent she say directly that the word “Nation” is a non existent word, and rather we shud start living in “Kabilas”??
I am focusing on Arun.Roy, bcoz she gets 2 much media coverage..its as if she represents the voice of the people,,,The Western Media thinks that she is a Lady Gandhi,,(who ironically defends violence against state, but not vice versa)

Please Military thinkers and Officers out there, devise a way to get us rid of these “English Speaking Devils”…You have no idea how much faith and respect an ordinary civilian has for you,, We know that we are able to enjoy all IPLs and Movies etc only becoz u loose ur life at Border, at Dantewada,,We know we cud hope to start a family and live happily, only becoz we have YOU..
Plz Help,,,I am starting to get Nightmares of these Naxals..
Sorry Mods for this Emotional Post. Some may Argue that its not a military post,,but I think Naxals and Arun Roys are an equally bigger threat as Paks and Chineese as part of that “Two and a half front war”

Could not find any other place to post this,,
Maybe a new thread” Naxalism: By Guns and by English Speaking Devils”??What Say…

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 10 Apr 2010 01:02

If I stand on the wing of a fighter jet and I jump up and down, will the wing break? No I do not plan on trying this experiment.

Just out of curiosity. I am about 200 lbs.

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Apr 2010 01:21

No it won't wing roots take most of the beating a fighter airframe has to withstand throughout its flight envelope .

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 10 Apr 2010 01:25

Carl_T wrote:If I stand on the wing of a fighter jet and I jump up and down, will the wing break? No I do not plan on trying this experiment.

Just out of curiosity. I am about 200 lbs.

You are one crazy man.
No, your jumping will be nothing as compared to the strains the wing has to go through during its flight.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Apr 2010 06:45

Carl_T wrote:If I stand on the wing of a fighter jet and I jump up and down, will the wing break? No I do not plan on trying this experiment.

Just out of curiosity. I am about 200 lbs.

There are areas of wing surface that will collapse or get damaged. The wing will not break. Remember that a plane flies because the wings lift the plane. The total weight of even the smallest fighter is in excess of 5000 Kg so the wing structure, as a whole and its attachment to the fuselage itself can withstand stresses far higher than your piffling 200 lbs.. But 90 kg (200 pounds) on one single small area can produce local damage that can be unacceptable. There are designated areas on the wing where people can stand.

Many photos exist of people sitting and standing on wings of an aircraft - some on BR

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 10 Apr 2010 09:09

I see, so there is a possibility of puncturing and surface damage, but no bending.

nishu · Post by **nishu** » 10 Apr 2010 15:56

FLASH FLASH polands president and his wife died in a plane crash in russia .

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 10 Apr 2010 16:17

Hmmm

Raju Saar claimed to be 6'2'" in height and 200lbs in weight and also claimed to have strong forearms due to beef eating during his younger days.

200lbs for a 6'2'' guy gives an above borderline BMI, jumping up and down would promote weight reduction IMVHO

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Apr 2010 23:45

Carl_T wrote:If I stand on the wing of a fighter jet and I jump up and down, will the wing break? No I do not plan on trying this experiment.

Just out of curiosity. I am about 200 lbs.

Carl_T one of the qualification tests for fighter aircraft, is to hold the aircraft by its wing tips with cables and do a drop test to see how it takes the loads.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 11 Apr 2010 00:01

I have always wondered how far was the furthest air-to-air kill achieved by a BVR missile ?
Any gurus have some idea ?

Nandan D · Post by **Nandan D** » 11 Apr 2010 08:33

Carl_T, not quite the same thing, but see this picture

http://digg.com/d31Mv5s

Nandan D · Post by **Nandan D** » 11 Apr 2010 08:36

I noticed LiveFist's pictures on the new AFS at Phalodi.

I thought this airbase always existed. I've seen it on Scramble.nl for more than a year now.
What's the story?

Also, is Tawang AFS, a helibase?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Apr 2010 08:59

Carl_T wrote:I see, so there is a possibility of puncturing and surface damage, but no bending.

No permanent bending. Wings are built to bend with stresses, but not break. Next time you fly look at the level of the plane's wingtip with respect to your eye level before takeoff and check again in flight. You will be surprised at how much bending occurs.

And watch when the plane touches down and you feel the first bump of hitting the ground - see the wing whip down and up again

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 11 Apr 2010 10:58

http://jalopnik.com/5504530/boeing-787- ... -load-test
As you can see from the above stress test, the wings of an airplane can bend an awful lot without breaking.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 11 Apr 2010 11:19

KrishG wrote:I have always wondered how far was the furthest air-to-air kill achieved by a BVR missile ?
Any gurus have some idea ?

I know that an F-14 did hit a target drone over 200+ km away with an AIM-54 Phoenix. While this was for a test and not an actual air-to-air kill of an enemy aircraft, that gives you an idea of the range that it was capable of. Note that the actual range of the missile is still classified, even though it was decommissioned a few years ago.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 11 Apr 2010 12:48

shiv wrote: No permanent bending. Wings are built to bend with stresses, but not break. Next time you fly look at the level of the plane's wingtip with respect to your eye level before takeoff and check again in flight. You will be surprised at how much bending occurs.

Never actually looked at that, and I assume that is why some planes have wings that are "drooping" downwards like the Harrier, so when they fly they bend to level?

ArmenT wrote:http://jalopnik.com/5504530/boeing-787- ... -load-test
As you can see from the above stress test, the wings of an airplane can bend an awful lot without breaking.

Nice picture. Damn, are the wings glowing there? Hah I had been just wondering because the fighter plane wings look quite flimsy.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 11 Apr 2010 20:50

I have observed this once last year as well, but this time I have seem almost 4-5 times.
The Sukhois low level sorties in and around Pune seems to have with their landing gear down (not retracted). Any ideas

negi · Post by **negi** » 12 Apr 2010 00:00

^ I guess its customary to do that when flying low over populated areas , moreover idea behind retracting the landing gear is to reduce the drag but if the AC is flying low and slow it won't put heavy stress on the airframe and I don't think you would want the MKI to fly supersonic over your locality on a daily basis .

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 12 Apr 2010 00:27

Found some gorgeous pics from a recent Russian tank-ex. Awesome photography

http://tinyurl.com/y85gndl

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 12 Apr 2010 17:16

Hellfire II tested with live warhead

The POP 2 flight test, conducted at Eglin Air Force Base, FL, featured a lock-on-after-launch engagement of a stationary target board at 1.6 miles (2.5 km). The team used a ground-based laser designator to illuminate the target. The multi-purpose warhead was set with a delayed fuze that allows the missile to penetrate the target before detonating.

The missile was launched with a low trajectory suitable for a military operation in urban terrain scenario and struck the target board precisely designated by the laser aimpoint. The precursor warhead detonated on impact, while the primary warhead successfully detonated a short distance beyond the target.

"This test successfully demonstrates the Romeo's multi-purpose warhead and electronic safe, arm and fire, or ESAF, module, which provides the pilot-programmable delayed fuzing function," said Ken Musculus, director of Air-to-Ground Missile System programs at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. "It's an important milestone for the HELLFIRE program, bringing us one step closer to providing the Warfighter with one missile that can defeat hard, soft and enclosed targets. In this case, we tested the Romeo's ability to penetrate and then detonate within a target vehicle or structure, a critical capability against today's threats."

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 13 Apr 2010 13:32

n00bie question:

What is the difference between the Govt. Railway Police and Railway Protection Force?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Apr 2010 16:52

Carl_T wrote: I assume that is why some planes have wings that are "drooping" downwards like the Harrier, so when they fly they bend to level?

No. They don't bend up that much. They are designed to stay drooped.

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 13 Apr 2010 18:41

DMurphy, Government Railway Police is a unit under the state police. It is responsible for the safety of fixed railway assets, like stations, trains and passengers at the station, godowns and a certain distance of the railway tracks. It is responsible for law and order at the station and its personnel have the power to arrest/detain suspects. Members are drawn from the state police ranks and only group IV staff are directly recruited.
Railway Protection Force, on the other hand, is a paramilitary force directly under the railways/government of india. They are tasked with providing protection on running trains (and tracks) but do not have the authority to arrest anyone. They can detain miscreants but have to hand them over to GRP at the very next station. The personnel are recruited directly through UPSC. RPF has a 'commando' unit that is better armed, protected and obviously better trained. They are deployed mostly in the North-East, on the deadly Lumding stretch for instance.
There are always grey areas in the jurisdiction of GRP and RPF.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 13 Apr 2010 21:04

Thank you pmund!

pmund wrote:RPF has a 'commando' unit that is better armed, protected and obviously better trained. They are deployed mostly in the North-East, on the deadly Lumding stretch for instance.

If I may add my 2 cents worth, there's a small contingent of RPF commandos stationed in Mumbai as well after 26/11. There some pics of them in the special forces thread.

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 13 Apr 2010 21:47

Even in Kolkata, Delhi, Lko, and sum other cities. AFAIK Lumding veterans are deployed in mum

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Apr 2010 14:46

Errr, pardon my ignorance but who are Lumding veterans?

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 14 Apr 2010 15:58

Friends, I have a question here.

While Testing of ballistic missiles, government gives prior intimation to civial aviation and airport authorities and also to International airlines and neighbouring countries, in order to avoid accidentaly hitting civilain aircrafts and ships and other commercial sea transport vessels. So my question is,

1) During real war scenario, will the government give such prior intimation??
2) If it doesent, then woudnt the fate of International commercial aircrafts, ships etc (and the missile itself) be kept in jeopardy?
3) If it does then would it not compromise the surprise element of a first strike? And hence make the enemy aware of our plan and give them a better chance to upp their BMDs.

Thanks.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 14 Apr 2010 16:56

Carl_T wrote: Never actually looked at that, and I assume that is why some planes have wings that are "drooping" downwards like the Harrier, so when they fly they bend to level?

No. Actually that is Anhedral given to the wing to lessen roll stability. High mounted wings are more roll stable (pendulum effect) and low mounted wings are less roll stable. The downward bending wing (anhedral) reduces the roll stability of aircraft so that it is easy to roll/manuver. Similarly low mounted wings are generally given a dihedral to increase roll-stability. The swept back wings further add to roll stability that's why harrier has so much of anhedral.

Cheers....

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 15 Apr 2010 18:28

The TOI article regarding GSLV-D3 failure mentions that China has developed Cryogenic Engine. Now, my knowledge of all matters of space technology is very limited to put it mildly, but AFAIK, this is incorrect. I used google but could not find any mention of any cryogenic engine developed by China. So, what is the truth? Has China developed a cryogenic engine or is it usual DDM?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Apr 2010 18:39

sum wrote:Errr, pardon my ignorance but who are Lumding veterans?

just read his earlier post.

Narad wrote:Friends, I have a question here.

While Testing of ballistic missiles, government gives prior intimation to civial aviation and airport authorities and also to International airlines and neighbouring countries, in order to avoid accidentaly hitting civilain aircrafts and ships and other commercial sea transport vessels. So my question is,

1) During real war scenario, will the government give such prior intimation??
2) If it doesent, then woudnt the fate of International commercial aircrafts, ships etc (and the missile itself) be kept in jeopardy?
3) If it does then would it not compromise the surprise element of a first strike? And hence make the enemy aware of our plan and give them a better chance to upp their BMDs.

Thanks.

NOTAMs are issued because the testing takes place in a region of considerable air traffic and one of the busiest sea routes in the world. real life launches are oriented towards quite another direction. secondly, for most of the flight, a BM flies much above the normal height for civilian traffic, only after re-entry does it come down to the level of airliners. in case of a war, that happens over enemy territory so the considerations are that much lower.
in any case, accidental collision between the missile itself and aircraft would be a very very rare occurrence, statistically speaking. rare enough that the designer won't bother with it.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Apr 2010 18:42

Gaur wrote:The TOI article regarding GSLV-D3 failure mentions that China has developed Cryogenic Engine. Now, my knowledge of all matters of space technology is very limited to put it mildly, but AFAIK, this is incorrect. I used google but could not find any mention of any cryogenic engine developed by China. So, what is the truth? Has China developed a cryogenic engine or is it usual DDM?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YF-73
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YF-75

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 15 Apr 2010 18:59

^^
Thanks. It seems I have to take classes to learn to better use google and wiki.

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 15 Apr 2010 19:08

SUM, Lumding 'veterans' makes it sound like there was a war in Lumding but no. It is a small town in Assam --- and the deadliest stretch of railway tracks in the country. Black Widow, Ulfa and Bodo militants regularly take potshots at trains on this 103 km stretch from Lumding to Haflong. In 2009 alone, 30 people were killed on these tracks. The country's only 'bullet proof' train runs here, with sandbagged machinegun posts on coaches. The killings have dropped ever since RPF commandos took over and Jewel Garlosa was arrested. The RPF men are all kitted out in flak jackets and kevlar helmets. Every time a train goes out, it's like going to war. It was on this stretch that the railways won its first Kirti Chakra for a driver, Nityanand Bora, who reversed the train and took it to safety even after being riddled with bullets in an ambush last year. He saved at least 20 lives that day. RPF men run this gauntlet daily. Hence, the term 'veterans'. The army also guards the tracks.

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Apr 2010 20:55

Rahul M wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YF-73
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YF-75

Was the Chinese cryo also Russian donated or usual beg-borrow-steal or was it actually "indigenous"?

Amazing that they mastered this tech in the early 80s itself!!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Apr 2010 00:27

sum wrote:
Rahul M wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YF-73
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YF-75
Was the Chinese cryo also Russian donated or usual beg-borrow-steal or was it actually "indigenous"?

Amazing that they mastered this tech in the early 80s itself!!!

Its there own design. PRC was clear on need for cryo capability from the late 60s.

In fact the US crib about India is that they funded the Russian development of the semi cryo engine that they had.

BTW General Dynamics and another co bid for the cryo development contract with India. When Russian was chosen all the sacntions/vanctions came up. Besides Cold War was over and a drunk Yeltsin and a dupe Kozyrev were in charge of Russia.

negi · Post by **negi** » 16 Apr 2010 02:07

^ I have my eyes on this baby

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-170_(rocket_engine).

Unkil's ATlas-V and even SoKo Naro-1 use the variants of the same .