Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[Misraji]

^^^

Austin Sir,
Now you are asking the right questions.

Why did the DGMF postpone the trials?
How the hell should I know?? But that is the question everyone here is asking

2007 - The Desert Dual that wasn't
2008 - Arjun vs T-90 : Army avoiding Trials
2009 - Army ready for trials

2007 - T-90S is a dud.

But we are not accepting the answer that the Army is right.
What extra information do you know which makes you so sure??

Regards,
Ashish.

[a_kumar]

So for me the bottom line is GOI was fully aware ( plus and minuses ) when the IA went ahead with thousand of T-90 tank , by GOI I mean MOD/MOD/GOI ( of that day ) , the fact that DRDO chief did not oppose the deal ( like we know how they opposed the Barak-1 viz a viz Trishul ) makes it ample clear that they did not have the tank with the desired performance IA demanded , that is what Ajai Shukla said in as many words.

There is no way I could have gleened all this from Ajai's comment!!!!

Still, if you want everybody to put "IA & MoD" instead of "IA", that is fair. But beyond that it falls flat.

DRDO did not oppose the deal for T-90 in 2000. Are you suggesting DRDO should have vetoed that. Because, everybody agrees that as a stop-gap approach T-90 made sense, to me DRDO seems responsible in not veto'ing that. Still, it wasn't easy for IA-MoD combine, Ajai has in good detail the amount of deception that went into getting approval for T-90.

As for incremental orders, its well known how IA dillydallyed and kept postponing the trials!

[Rahul M]

Austin, do we really need to invent various unknown facts and classified secrets in order to explain away IA's decision ? why isn't the simple explanation that IA goofed up in this instance suffice ? won't be the first time either, their recent record has been horrible.

Army goofed up ? Well even the reputation Ajai Shukla holds here has mentioned in his blog

"I don't think it would be correct to call the army "shifty". They are actually quite straightforward.
What they certainly are is "inflexible". As they see it, they were correct in opposing the Arjun for so many years... and the DRDO was to blame for overpromising and under-delivering."

{so you agree that the army refused a perfectly working indigenous product based on pre-conceived notions about reputations and what not and NOT about the arjun MBT itself ?

that is precisely what we have been saying. IA has no factual basis to reject the arjun in favour of the inferior tin cans}
Does that sound familiar with DRDO ? Tejas ,Kaveri ,ATV ,Arjun to name a few. Does DRDO/PSU hold the reputation of delivering project on schedule and budget ?
{and pray what does tejas or kaveri or ATV have to do with a product that was ready at the time and should have been evaluated on its merits ? now you are really arguing for arguments sake.}

Blaming IA and Defence service is the easy way out , its IA responsibility to shoulder on country security and if DRDO under delivers and does not keep to its schedule , then IA has the right to look else where and order in the numbers they feel its necessary to do the job and GOI being fully aware of this fact has always supported the Defence Service.

only then it is justified. which is NOT the situation in case of arjun.
buying foreign for requirement A because DRDO was late in delivering a system for requirement B sounds like lahori logic to me.

Misraji , in this country it doesnt work like the way you put it , the IA like any defence service recommends certain weapon system to MOD , the MOD weighs the pro and cons of the recommendation and takes DRDO view on the matter
{taking views is about all it does. MOD can take any decision it wants.}

( it does not matter if DRDO has a similar product ready or not , if DRDO does not have the MOD takes their view if indiginous system can be developed in required times etc depending on the criticality of weapons in question , so DRDO does hold a good veto power remember Trishul SAM deal where DRDO vetoed IN attempt initially to purchase Barak-1 on grounds that Trishul will be ready , but then had to agree to IN chief after immediate operational requirement was put across by IN and that how MOF objected to A-330 Refueller deal on cost grounds )
{we know all that only because of the political fallout of the barak deal. for all we know DRDO may have indicated its displeasure about the arjun too. in fact we can be certain that it has.
how can you be so sure it hasn't ? because it isn't in the press ?
guess what ? there are umpteen systems that the forces select inspite of domestic alternatives being available, how many "DRDO vetoes" of those have you read about in the press ?
akash SAM not being bought for n number of years while obsolete soviet era SAMs are upgraded at high cost, nishant UAV ignored in favour of israeli UAVs in spite of the former having some better features. now we have another "wild goose chase" from the army asking for a wheeled version at the 13th hour, when the original rail launched version (built to IA's own requirements no less) is ready for many years now.
please find me reports that talk about DRDO veto against these acquisitions. there are none.

so it is for the arjun. just because it wasn't reported in press is no prrof that it didn't happen.
as they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. }

After MOD weighs in the options after taking advise from DRDO , it put forwards it to MOF ( finance ) and then it goes to GOI which deliberates the matter in detail and agrees to sign the deal ( or for that matter any other defence deal , the same will happen with MMRCA deal as well )

IA/Defense Service ( trials etc ) ------> MOD/DRDO -------> MOF --------> GOI
{let's not pretend that DRDO and MOD are at the same level as far as decision making is concerned. DRDO is a subordinate body that has an advisory role, that's as far as it goes. and the weight of that advisory role is far less than that of the forces}

So if T-90 has to get into IA in the numbers that has been signed and the different period when the deal was signed , the GOI was well aware of Arjun development and the state of affair it was in , so all ( repeat all ) the ministries of GOI gave the go ahead for T-90 deal.
{how is that some conclusive evidence ? a desi product is nobody's dog, its backer, the DRDO does not have the influence to force or stop any decision, canards about veto notwithstanding. it's ridiculous to assume that a subordinate body like DRDO has a veto over a ministerial body. MOD can ALWAYS override DRDO's objection if it so feels.
the army specifically chose a version of the T-90 minus a lot of its essential equipments, precisely so that it wasn't objected to by the MOF.}

Hence Ajai statement has some credibility when he say that the DRDO was to blame for overpromising and under-delivering and its only very recently that Arjun has come good on its promise. {current version for arjun is unchanged from circa 2005-2006, that was BEFORE the subsequent orders for T-90 were placed. to pretend otherwise is obfuscating the facts}

So if the recent trials where Arjun has come good as mentioned by Ajai is true then it may change the fortune for Arjun and perception of IA . {now you know why sections within army were delaying the comparative trials for more than 3 years ! they knew the cat would be out of the bag and their favourite tin-can would come out in all its obsolete glory} The IA could opt to order Arjun in huge numbers and GOI too will not have any objection for the same. {huge numbers like 124 ? }

[Austin]

The facts are with the GOI , there is no way any defense service chief even if he wants to push ahead with that kind of deal without GOI consent and approval.

GOI is the final decision making body for any major defence deals.

Infact the Defence Service does not have any right beyond recommending to the GOI , it does not control the price because thats done by another GOI body which is MOD PNC.

The GOI before weighing pro and cons of any deal takes the necessary inputs from Defence Service and DRDO , MOF(babus) ,MOD(babus) before approving any deal.

Obviously the T-90 right from the first stage of approval till the final one ( Dec 2007 ) went through the same established process.

So did the GOI had any vested interest in approving such huge number of T-90 over a long period of time ( remember the GOI changed from BJP led one to now Congress led one )

So the question to me is did DRDO , GOI and IA jointly sabotaged the Arjun process in different ways that lead the T-90 in that big number's and as late as Dec 2007 ? ( assuming most agree here that T-90's is a dead on arrival tank and does not have any merits and Arjun was ready to be inducted with all the merits that was discussed )

Was the IA forced to buy the big lot of T-90's so that vested interest in GOI gets benefited from the Deal ?

Was the DRDO chief ( past and present ) was pressurized so that it did not veto the huge purchase of T-90's even though the Arjun was ready ?

Or was the Arjun genuinely not ready then ( but now it is as Ajai is trying to portray ) and the T-90's purchase had its merit as GOI saw it ?

Is the whole Arjun versus T-90's trial as was conducted few weeks back is really a eyewash when decision is already made to purchase the Arjun by GOI and now its just the question of GOI giving the formal final stamp of approval after necessary report from IA and DRDO ? ( which is to say all made most money from T-90 deal and now nothing more is to be made and sucess of Arjun is to be brought to the lime light )

The entire decision making process rest squarely on GOI and GOI is answerable on the huge purchase of T-90's over the merits of Arjun and what was the rational behind such purchase ?

[Misraji]

Austinji,

In so many articles over such a long period of time, it has been IA/DGMF which
has shouting that they do not want Arjun.
Who testified before the Parliamentary committee that they did not want Arjun.

What is this whole fetish of now trying to shove the entire blame on GOI now that
your arguments are falling apart?

Now T-90 was forced on the IA??
And DRDO sabotaged Arjun now? When they had been asking for comparative
trials from 2007.

Regards,
Ashish

[Rahul M]

austin, on what basis are you insisting that DRDO didn't object to T-90 purchase ?

[Misraji]

Austin Saar,

Some more of Ajai Shukla's articles.
"Army is not taking over those tanks. Period"
Nailing some more falsehoods about Arjun tank.

Regards,
Ashish

[Austin]

austin, on what basis are you insisting that DRDO didn't object to T-90 purchase ?

I do not know , Ideally they should have opposed tooth and nail to any T-90's purchase specially when they knew Arjun was ready , not just opposed but put it on paper to GOI , Remember when APJ was DRDO chief he put the approval of Barak-1 in limited number for Operational requirement as deemed necessary by IN , provided IN will keep to it and will move to trishul when its ready and at that stage DRDO was no where close to any sucess with Naval version of trishul , but DRDO chief thought it right to put that on paper to GOI and IN.

Why was such a process not followed with Arjun , when here you have a complete product ready and did not put on paper to GOI as they moved ahead with T-90 purchase in batches , as you suggest by 2005 things looks good for Arjun and last T-90 purchase was approved in late 2007.

Or did DRDO put it on paper to GOI and IA , yet GOI found it fit to go ahead with the deal ?

Who is the decision making authority , IA , DRDO or GOI ?

Why didnt GOI stepped in as it has the right to do so and just made lip service on the capability of Arjun but on the ground didn't do any thing much to change as things were running ?

Who is benefiting from this deal ?

[Austin]

Austin Saar,

Some more of Ajai Shukla's articles.
"Army is not taking over those tanks. Period"
Nailing some more falsehoods about Arjun tank.

Regards,
Ashish

Exactlly if Ajai word is to be taken as Gospel truth ( please remember he now says IA is right in not accepting Arjun because it was not ready and he does not oppose T-90 , but now thinks Arjun is ready and IA should be flexible and approve Arjun ) then GOI as a final arbitrator should have stepped in long time back and should have approved in big numbers , why did GOI didnt go beyond lip service for Arjun , but found it fit to order 1000 more T-90's ?

[Austin]

Austinji,

And DRDO sabotaged Arjun now? When they had been asking for comparative
trials from 2007.

Regards,
Ashish

Why not DRDO chief has its own position , perks and ranks in GOI , who doesn't want an extension or continue with its own pet project with all the funding , certainly DRDO heads are no monks who spend most time praying.

Didnt GOI reward retd Admiral Mehta when he came in full support of GOI on Nuclear Bum issue when Santy was playing the bad guy ? If you are not aware he is the present Indian Ambassador to New Zealand.

[Rahul M]

austin, for all we know DRDO has fought tooth and nail for the arjun project, that is why we had comparative trials in the face of stringent opposition from the army.

we know of APJ's POV wrt barak only because of the political conspiracy surrounding it, even that fact was mentioned only when an ex CNS was being targeted.

you are projecting lack of information as a point in itself and using it to come to a conclusion, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Why was such a process not followed with Arjun , when here you have a complete product ready and did not put on paper to GOI as they moved ahead with T-90 purchase in batches , as you suggest by 2005 things looks good for Arjun and last T-90 purchase was approved in late 2007.

how do you know such a process was not followed ?

Exactlly if Ajai word is to be taken as Gospel truth ( please remember he now says IA is right in not accepting Arjun because it was not ready and he does not oppose T-90 , but now thinks Arjun is ready and IA should be flexible and approve Arjun ) then GOI as a final arbitrator should have stepped in long time back and should have approved in big numbers , why did GOI didnt go beyond lip service for Arjun , but found it fit to order 1000 more T-90's ?

nowhere does he say that the arjun isn't a better tank.
he does not oppose the T-90 now because it is a done deal and it's futile to do so, not because it was the correct decision.

[Austin]

austin, for all we know DRDO has fought tooth and nail for the arjun project, that is why we had comparative trials in the face of stringent opposition from the army.

May be , May be not . If DRDO chief has no love lost for Arjun why dont they come out and make its stand clear on this and let the people of this country know what has it exactly done to oppose large scale induction of T-90's

we know of APJ's POV wrt barak only because of the political conspiracy surrounding it, even that fact was mentioned only when an ex CNS was being targeted.

The T-90 purchase is no short of scam if Arjun success is known , yet the GOI thought it was alright to order 1000 more T-90's say over 1000 more Arjun

you are projecting lack of information as a point in itself and using it to come to a conclusion, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Please , no body out here has any real information that can stand scrutiny , all the information is with GOI , and GOI has to come clean on this , as they are the decision making authority and are answerable to people.

how do you know such a process was not followed ?

We do not , but as i said if DRDO chief knows the truth , why doesnt he stand up for his boys and makes it public , like the way they fought against Barak-1 and APJ/IN went public

( such was the belief of DRDO with naval Trishul success ,that the IN had to commision a frontline frigate(P-16A) without its main self defence SAM ( quite uncommon for IN ,atleast I have not seen that happen in many years ) , since DRDO believed that Trishul was almost ready , finally neither Trishul came and IN had no option but to opt for Barak-1 as its standard short range SAM which they still do

nowhere does he say that the arjun isn't a better tank.
he does not oppose the T-90 now because it is a done deal and it's futile to do so, not because it was the correct decision.

this is what he says

I don't think it would be correct to call the army "shifty". They are actually quite straightforward.

What they certainly are is "inflexible". As they see it, they were correct in opposing the Arjun for so many years... and the DRDO was to blame for overpromising and under-delivering. Now, with the tank ready for operational use, why should they rush to accept it. That sums up the way the army thinks.

The answer, of course, is it is in the army's own long-term interest to accept and mentor the Arjun.

[Misraji]

Why not DRDO chief has its own position , perks and ranks in GOI , who doesn't want an extension or continue with its own pet project with all the funding , certainly DRDO heads are no monks who spend most time praying.

Didnt GOI reward retd Admiral Mehta when he came in full support of GOI on Nuclear Bum issue when Santy was playing the bad guy ? If you are not aware he is the present Indian Ambassador to New Zealand.

Austin,

Would appreciate if you start quoting entire posts.
You are taking random parts of a post and answering them while side-stepping the thorny ones.
I hope you are at-least reading the articles whose links were posted.

Frankly, I cannot comprehend this desperate need to defend Army at all costs including the truth.
If your entire motivation is to just argue and speculate endlessly to the above end, then this
discussion is basically futile.

Rahul-da has far more patience for tolerating this kind of thing than me....

Thanks,
Ashish

[Austin]

Misraji , Please stop blaming the IA for the non induction of Arjun , IA is just one the player the other are DRDO and the key player is GOI.

The IA like any defence service does nothing more then recommending , the GOI with views from DRDO takes a final view on the decision.

The fact remains that T-90's were ordered in multiple phases by different GOI ( BJP and Congress ) and GOI being the final decision making authority was aware of the progress Arjun and capabilities/liabilities of T-90 , still GOI saw it fit to order ~1600 plus T-90's over the capable Arjun.

The DRDO chief did precious little here to stand for its own project , and even if they did ( which is not known in public ) the GOI did not heed to the advise and went ahead with more T-90's

Bottom like dont blame Army for the mess in which DRDO and GOI are equally responsible and key players.

I find it very disgustful that the only aim of this thread is to discredit the IA and many here take pleasure in doing that , sorry but I do not want to be one who judges without knowing the full fact and as I see it the responsibility squarely falls on GOI to let the people know the truth.

[Misraji]

Austin,

Hysterics apart, you never ever explained 3 years of delay in comparative trials with each and
every report stating DRDO wanting trials and DGMF backing off.
Nobody expects you too, because no-one knows.

However instead of questioning, you alone have adopted the reverse logic that since T-90s were
inducted, trials were not done and GOI is responsible for everything, IA is clean.
Sorry. Not many people buy that piece of circular logic.

You say do not blame IA for non-induction of Arjun. Did you even read Ajai-Shukla's blog
where he says that IA simply refused to take delivery of the tanks? Surely somehow GOI and
DRDO were involved here too.

You find it disgusting that IA is becoming discredited. All you have been trying to do is shift the
blame. And this is after you have not even followed the project.

You claim to not want to be judging things without knowing all the facts and yet you find it
delightful to blame the DRDO chief.

As I said, Rahul M is blessed with more patience for such arguments.
My last post on this.
Have fun.

Regards,
Ashish.

[Rahul M]

austin, for all we know DRDO has fought tooth and nail for the arjun project, that is why we had comparative trials in the face of stringent opposition from the army.

May be , May be not . If DRDO chief has no love lost for Arjun why dont they come out and make its stand clear on this and let the people of this country know what has it exactly done to oppose large scale induction of T-90's
{and queer up the pitch further with an already vindictive army ?
in fact, how many times have you seen the DRDO try to create pressure on GOI/MOD in an round about way using press ?
never would be close to the answer. let's not forget that the forces enjoy all the leverages against DRDO, which is basically a single customer organisation and would be very hesitant to get on their bad side.

anyway, now you are blaming them for NOT speaking out of turn, for NOT trying underhanded tactics, IOW for behaving just as a govt controlled body is supposed to !
this has to be a first, even in this land of DRDO bashing ! previously it was DRDO is evil, now it is DRDO is not evil enough ! }

we know of APJ's POV wrt barak only because of the political conspiracy surrounding it, even that fact was mentioned only when an ex CNS was being targeted.

The T-90 purchase is no short of scam if Arjun success is known , yet the GOI thought it was alright to order 1000 more T-90's say over 1000 more Arjun

{is it a political issue yet ? it's not right ? you will have all the info you want if and when it does become a political issue, although GOI won't have the cojones to blacklist rosbonexport in any case.
regarding the subsequent orders it might well be that the RM had no clue of the issue and went blindly by whatever army recommended. the simple fact is we do not know yet.
let's not turn this lack of knowledge into "proof" of anything. it can be as easily used to "prove" conclusions that are diametrically opposite to yours.
do you really want to go that route ?}

you are projecting lack of information as a point in itself and using it to come to a conclusion, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Please , no body out here has any real information that can stand scrutiny ,{precisely, which is why no one else is using lack of evidence as a point of argument } all the information is with GOI , and GOI has to come clean on this , as they are the decision making authority and are answerable to people.
{for that to happen, a stink has to be raised, politically. that is not what one wants in the larger interests of the nation.}

how do you know such a process was not followed ?

We do not , but as i said if DRDO chief knows the truth , why doesnt he stand up for his boys and makes it public , like the way they fought against Barak-1 and APJ/IN went public
{excuse me, my memory must be foggy but APJ make any of those announcements in press ?
my impression was that these came out during the recent controversy from other sources ?
right now I do not remember a single instance where DRDO has complained "in public" against an acquisition by the forces.}
( such was the belief of DRDO with naval Trishul success ,that the IN had to commision a frontline frigate(P-16A) without its main self defence SAM ( quite uncommon for IN ,atleast I have not seen that happen in many years ) {you don't have to wait long, INS Vikramaditya will enter service without a CIWS if CAG is correct}, since DRDO believed that Trishul was almost ready , finally neither Trishul came and IN had no option but to opt for Barak-1 as its standard short range SAM which they still do
{we all know that, story what does it have to do with arjun MBT ? SAM's and MBT's are not even distant cousins in terms of tech, are they ? }

nowhere does he say that the arjun isn't a better tank.
he does not oppose the T-90 now because it is a done deal and it's futile to do so, not because it was the correct decision.

this is what he says

I don't think it would be correct to call the army "shifty". They are actually quite straightforward.

What they certainly are is "inflexible". As they see it, they were correct in opposing the Arjun for so many years... and the DRDO was to blame for overpromising and under-delivering. Now, with the tank ready for operational use, why should they rush to accept it. That sums up the way the army thinks.

The answer, of course, is it is in the army's own long-term interest to accept and mentor the Arjun.

where does it say that it was the correct decision ? he is merely reporting what IA thinking is, not judging it.

[rohitvats]

It is actually quite amusing to see how the debate parameters get shifted every time some new good news about Arjun comes into picture.

--First, it was the deficiency in the Arjun tank and how it was not upto mark: Time and again this has got thrashed and latest Ajai Shukla article is the final nail in the coffin. IA was so desperate to condemn the tank that it lied to the Parliament on the performace of Renk transmission in the AUCRT trials. The best part was saying that the system failed - when the point is to check when it fails. The T-90 report posted some time back on BRF also showed that two of the three T-90 engine seized during the AUCRT. Last checked, IA did not go to town with that report.

--Indian Mil-Ind Complex: Next strawman was the lack of timely production capability and QC element wrt Indian Military-Industrial Complex. And how going for T-90 was a hedge for that - well, IA could always order CKD/SKD in case of lag in domestic production. But what everyone forgot was that bulk of T-90 will also be produced in the very same Mil-Ind Complex. And subject to same delays and QC problems. Classis case of throwing baby out with bath water.

--And finally, we have new set of argument - Why did DRDO not oppose the deal? Why did MOF allow it? Why did MOD and GOI approve it? This latest set of argument is nothing but a red herring - something that is not relevant to the debate at hand...and this itself came about after the earlier argument of some 'classified' information being available with the Army with respect to T-90 and Arjun (and hence, the respective decisions) was struck down.

IIRC, Shiv had ones posted a diagram about various levels (kinds?) of argument.This latest round of argument by Austin, actually go me to search the internet to classify such arguments and voila, I actually got an answer.

Guess, something of this sort is called - Affirming the Consequent: Within valid logic structure when we say that if A is true then B is true, we must prove A to be true in order to conclude that B is true. Affirming the consequent is to erroneously conclude that A is true upon finding that B is true.

Now let us apply this to latest argument: What Autin's argument is trying to prove - (B) Continued induction of T-90 tanks over Arjun is justified. What is the premise - (A) Lack of opposition by DRDO and hence, Arjun was/is not good enough.

Since, there is no way anyone can prove or argue for and against what the DRDO said, hence, Point B must be true. Pretty ingenious, actually.

[rohitvats]

The only piece of information available in public about defence matters is the reports of the Parliamentary Committee on Defence(PSD). And here again, PSD has oversight on only those topics which MOD places on the table. So, while induction of T-90 is discussed, further issues with its various sub-systems are not.

Here is a short compilation of observation of the committee along the years:

1. This is what the 13LS – PSD on Defense – 3rd Report – 1999-2000 on induction of T-90 Tank, when the negotiations were in progress:

The Committee has carefully considered the facts presented by the Defense Secretary in regard to the trial performance of T-90 tanks as well as the cost advantage the negotiators have been able to extract from the manufacturers. The Committee has also taken note of the contrary opinions expressed on the suitability of this tank. The Committee is of the view that the most important consideration in this regard should be the combat readiness of the Army. The crucial test is whether the induction of T-90 tanks at this stage will make the Indian Army fully equipped to meet the challenge from across the border. The Committee wants the Government to fully satisfy itself on the technological and financial advantages as well as the suitability of the tank at the earliest before taking a final decision in the matter. The Committee desire that the Government should ensure that major defense acquisitions are free from misapprehensions and controversies of any kind. The Committee feels that any controversy surrounding an acquisition of a weapon system will create confusion in the armed forces and adversely affect their morale.

Interestingly, this is how the induction of T-90 tank came into being in the Indian Army:

In reply to a question the Ministry of Defence stated that the T-90S Tanks were offered by Russia in December, 1997. A technical delegation was deputed to Russia in 1998 for conducting evaluation of the Tank. The delegation evaluated the Tank in Russian conditions and recommended its acquisition. In December 1998, the Cabinet Committee on Security approved the proposal for acquisition of 124 fully formed Tanks and 186 Semi Knocked Down (SKD) and Completely Knocked Down (CKD) Tanks. 31. The Price Negotiation Committee (PNC) recommended that the Tanks should be tried in Peak summer conditions in India. Three T-90S Tanks were tried in Rajasthan during May-July 1999. Protection trial of the Tanks was also held in Russia during October-November 1999 which was witnessed by technical delegation from India. Based on these trials the Army headquarters prepared a General Staff Evaluation Report and recommended the induction of T-90S Tank into the service.

2. Reason on reason for rapid induction of T-90 in 13LS-10th Report-2001:

The Committee had thoroughly considered the facts presented by the Defence Secretary in regard to the trial performance of T-90 tanks as well as the cost advantage the negotiators have been able to extract from the manufacturers. The Committee had also taken note of the contrary opinions expressed on the suitability of this tank. The Committee was of the view that important consideration in this regard should be the combat readiness of the Army. The Committee desired that the Government should fully satisfy itself on the technological and financial advantages as well as the suitability of the tanks at the earliest before taking a final decision in the matter.

The Ministry of Defence in their action taken reply have stated that the tank force is one of the most potent and offensive forces and provides a decisive edge in any land battle, be it offensive or defensive. The Indian Army Combat Ratio in Armour against Pakistan has fallen from 1.99:1 in 1993 to 1.40:1 in July, 1997. Thus at this juncture import of T-90 Tanks with ToT and our gradually upgrading the production line to T-90s is the only prudent solution to meet the combat readiness of the Army and challenges from across the border.

The Ministry have further stated that in the General Staff (GS) Evaluation report T-90s Tank has been found to be suitable for introduction in the Army to meet its present and future operations needs. A Price Negotiation Committee (PNC) is currently negotiating with the Russians for prices and other details. Only after the PNC conclude its negotiations with the Russians and submits its final report on the financial aspects, a final decision will be taken considering all aspects for induction of these tanks into Indian Army. On completion of negotiations necessary approval of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) will be obtained before entering into a contract.

The Committee no', that in the GS evaluation report T-90 Tank has been found to be suuable for introduction in the Army to meet its present and future operational needs. The Committee are also of the view that long delay in procuring this tank may result in obsolescence of technology, therefore, PNC should conclude its negotiations with the Russians at the earliest.

3. This is what the 13LS Committee recorded in 2003-04 – 19th Report.

The Committee is seriously concerned at the inordinate delay in the development and induction of indigenous MBT-Arjun. They feel that the delay in obtaining Government approval for bulk production of 124 tanks is another serious setback to the process of indigenization. They are also constrained to point out that in view of the disturbed international and regional environment the projected delivery schedule of the complete series by the year 2006-2007, being on the much higher side, is totally unacceptable. The Government must make all efforts to induct the complete number of Arjun tanks into field units of the Army in much shorter time frame.

The Committee further recommends that the capabilities of MBT-Arjun must be enhanced by developing and incorporating the Anti-Tank Missile protection system and the capability to fire Anti-Tank Missiles from its main armament.

The Committee also recommend that keeping in view the future requirements, the Ministry should explore the possibility to develop an engine for this tank indigenously so that we don’t have to depend on foreign supplier every time. This will not only make the country self reliant in terms of engine but also serve as launching pad for future generation of indigenous tanks.

4. This is what the 14LS Committee said in 2005-05 – 2nd Report

The Committee are of the opinion that there needs to be a more focused thrust on development, production of indigenous equipment into the Army, with particular reference to the Arjun Main Battle Tank. It is understood that though a limited order for 124 number of these tanks have been placed, the first production models are being further subjected to additional performance trials by the Army. This is primarily due to the unstated concern over quality control at the Ordnance Factory, Avadi at time of issue, which must be ensured by the Ordnance Factory Board to the satisfaction of the user.

The Committee are surprised to note that instead of giving firm order for sufficient number of Arjun Tanks by indigenous production, only a very small order has been placed and the Government has decided to acquire tanks from a foreign country to meet its requirement.

Having incurred an expenditure of approximately Rs. 3,300 crores on the development and productionisation of the MBT Arjun, the Committee are of the firm opinion that the Arjun must be inducted into the Army in large numbers, for which an initial production order for 50 tanks must be placed on Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi. This does not absolve DRDO (AHSP for Arjun Tank) and the Ordnance Factory Board of their prime responsibility to ensure that the production model of the tank meets the user requirement in every respect. The procurement plan of the Army must be structured (or re-structured
if necessary) to provide for induction of increased numbers of Arjun Tanks by the 11th, 12th Army Plans, as a replacement for T-72 Tanks.

5. Comments of the Committee in 8th Report – 2005-06

The Committee notes that the Government had placed an order for 124 Arjun Tanks in March, 2000. The delivery was to commence in 2001-2002. The Committee is, however, constrained to note that due to slippages since 2001, the Arjun Tank production was delayed. The first five tanks have been handed over to the Army only in February, 2005 for trial and their quality and performance will be checked during the current year. Based on these evaluations, the Indian Army will take a decision for placement of further order. The deficiencies in the Arjun Tank have been rectified and required modifications have been incorporated. The Committee would like to be apprised of the performance of Arjun Tanks on the basis of accelerated User Trial to be done in this regard. The Committee also hope that after the successful Trial, serial production of the Arjun Tanks which is already overdue they should draw up a time schedule for their delivery to Arjun.

6. This is from 14LS – 15th Report – 2007

“The Committee is deeply concerned about the progress of Arjun Tank as its production schedule is going very slow. The Committee, as recommended in their earlier reports, desire that Ordnance Factory in coordination with DRDO should carry out suitable modifications in ‘Gunners main sight’ and ‘Gun control system’ of the Arjun Tank at the earliest and hand over the rectified Tanks to the Army 2007-08. The Committee also stress that time limit prescribed should not be further extended. The Committee also desire that accountability for delay in production of the Arjun Tank may be fixed”.
The Ministry, in their action taken reply have stated :

“All the technical issues in the Gunner’s Main Sight and Gun Control System have been resolved. Suitable modifications have been carried out in these sub-systems on the initial five tanks of MBT Arjun by DRDO, the agency involved for conception and development of the project. After successful DRDO evaluation, five tanks have already been handed over to Army on 20th Jun 2006. Army has been invited for Joint Receipt Inspection (JRI) of Nine more tanks. The JRI is likely to commence from 1st week of February 2007. It is expected that a total of 29 MBT Arjun tanks will be ready for inspection by Army by the end of March 2007. The concern of the Committee for fixing up accountability for delays is noted. In a project of this magnitude involving design, development, manufacturing, and integration of diverse technologies, delays normally happen due to technical hitches in perfecting the technology.”

Comments of the Committee

The Committee note that all technical issues relating to Arjun Tank have been resolved and after successful evaluation five tanks have been handed over to Army in June 2006 and 29 MBT Arjun Tanks will be ready for inspection by Army by the end of March 2007. The Committee hopes that progress of Arjun Tank will go on as per schedule and in future there will not be any technical problem in operation of Arjun Tank in any form in order to avoid frequent discussion on this matter. The Committee strongly recommends that accountability may be fixed for inordinate delay in production of MBT Arjun and the Committee may be informed about the action taken in this matter.

7. 14LS – 16th Report - 2006-07

The Committee are perturbed to note that the Government of India accorded clearance for the development of an indigenous Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun in May 1974. Even after the lapse of more than 34 years, the nominated agency of DRDO could not execute the mission so far. Inordinate delay has escalated the original cost of MBT project from Rs.15.50 crore in 1974 to Rs. 306 crore in 2005. The Committee are surprised to note that neither the execution agency of DRDO or the certifying agency Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) are taking responsibility for the inordinate delay and quantity in production of MBT Arjun. Out of 124 ordered for tanks by the users, only 15 tanks have been produced by the Heavy Vehicle Factory, Avadi. Therefore, the Committee desire that the Ministry of Defence should think seriously as to how to comply Arjun’s requirement in a time bound manner.

[Austin]

If you guys do not agree with the very basic assessment that it is the GOI that takes the decision on purchase of any major weapon system with inputs taken from MOD, Defense service and DRDO , then there is nothing much to discuss.

While the MOD, IA and DRDO can make its recommendation to GOI ,but its no way binding on the GOI to accept it and GOI (CCSA )can make what can be termed as its "own right assesment" of the situation and can go ahead with the deal ( or cancel it altogether ) with the amount as negotiated by PNC and with the numbers it thinks is necessary.

So bottom line is any major purchase of T-90 in every stage and in the numbers they did had the approval of GOI period.

Its also fair to say that GOI before arriving at any decision to sign the T-90 deal took the views of IA ,DRDO and MOD into consideration before giving the go ahead to the MOD to sign the T-90 deal.

[Karan M]

If you guys do not agree with the very basic assessment that it is the GOI that takes the decision on purchase of any major weapon system with inputs taken from MOD, Defense service and DRDO , then there is nothing much to discuss.

While the MOD, IA and DRDO can make its recommendation to GOI ,but its no way binding on the GOI to accept it and GOI (CCSA )can make what can be termed as its "own right assesment" of the situation and can go ahead with the deal ( or cancel it altogether ) with the amount as negotiated by PNC and with the numbers it thinks is necessary.

So bottom line is any major purchase of T-90 in every stage and in the numbers they did had the approval of GOI period.

Its also fair to say that GOI before arriving at any decision to sign the T-90 deal took the views of IA ,DRDO and MOD into consideration before giving the go ahead to the MOD to sign the T-90 deal.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/ ... ur-of.html

Vital facts on the Russian T-90 tank deal were suppressed and its performance on the field has been poor.

On August 24 last year, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) dressed up failure as achievement when — almost nine years after India bought the T-90 tank from Russia — the first 10 built-in-India T-90s were ceremonially rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai.

No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90’s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

The story of the T-90 has been coloured by deception and obfuscation from even before the tank was procured. Business Standard has pieced together, from internal documents and multiple interviews with MoD sources, an account of how the Indian Army has saddled itself with an underperforming, yet overpriced, version of the Russian T-90.

The deception stemmed from the army’s determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament.

................

To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russia’s arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from India’s T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistan’s anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.

Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.

The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that India’s pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Army’s recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident — and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan — that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90’s thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn’t work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90’s fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.

With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world’s current tanks, other than France’s LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India’s Arjun tank, too, has “hardened” electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.

Nor has the MoD managed to procure the Shtora anti-missile system. The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip India’s eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.

The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.[/b]

[Karan M]

So all this ...GOI decided this program, so its all right is...really, nonsense.

The Army wanted the tank at all costs and got the GOI to play along by:

1. Understating cost of tank to bypass parliamentary opposition (by not including all necessary equipment such as support equipment)
2. Did shoddy trials without even qualifying the TI sight and INVAR and even including Indian made ammunition. Compare to the Arjun's trials for every small gadget/issue. In the trials itself two engines seized. Engine overheating continues to be issue with T-90.
3. The Russians even backed out of TOT for which India paid some millions of dollars (re: Parliamentary records).

And even today, sights are still not fixed, and we are still paying for Russia's arms industry's incompetence and Army's attempt to bypass trials for its "favourite" Russian tanks.

Claiming that the DRDO did nothing to push for the Arjun is also a joke, and another excuse. Why else were comparative trials held, even as the Army danced around the entire issue, first withdrawing the T-72 and put up the T-90..

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/ ... ls-in.html

The declared aim of the comparative trial, surprisingly, is not to identify the better tank. The army claims the T-90 is not on trial; instead, the strengths and weaknesses of the Arjun are being evaluated, to help the army decide what operational role the Arjun could play, and which sector of the border it could effectively operate in.

But the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) --- which has developed the Arjun tank at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE) at Chennai --- insists that if the Arjun performs well against the vaunted T-90, the army will be forced to order the Indian tank in larger numbers. Arjuns could start replacing the T-72, while the T-90 remains in service for another three decades.

So far the army has only ordered 124 Arjuns for its 4000-tank fleet. An incensed DRDO has long demanded comparative trials against the T-72, and the newer T-90, to prove the Arjun’s quality. Trials were scheduled, and then postponed, because of a shortage of Arjun ammunition. With the ammunition now available the army, significantly, has withdrawn the T-72 from the trials.

“The army knows that the T-72 would have performed very poorly in trials against the Arjun”, complains a senior DRDO officer. “Despite that, the army continues to sink money into its 2400 outdated T-72s. Any comparative trial with the T-72 would make it clear that the Arjun should replace the T-72.”

[Karan M]

It is actually quite amusing to see how the debate parameters get shifted every time some new good news about Arjun comes into picture.

Cognitive dissonance.

The anxiety that comes with the possibility of having made a bad decision can lead to rationalization, the tendency to create additional reasons or justifications to support one's choices. A person who just spent too much money on a new car might decide that the new vehicle is much less likely to break down than his or her old car. This belief may or may not be true, but it would reduce dissonance and make the person feel better. Dissonance can also lead to confirmation bias, the denial of disconfirming evidence, and other ego defense mechanisms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

This is the perfect case: India purchased T-90. So T-90 is good, so everything about T-90 is good.

But this is nothing compared to other "debates".

Another person spammed multiple threads posing as an expert on R&D, PSUs (without even knowing the basics of the product that came out of its doors), ABM system, Army's Cold Start doctrine, Nag acquisition, COIN, anything and everything. Everything was at a "conceptual and macro level" and there was nothing in the form of evidence to even back up bizarre assertions which would promptly change to something else when first assertions were dismissed on the basis of evidence. Truly an expert beyond comparisons.

So worse has been done, in terms of changing arguments again and again.

[archan]

I am a newbie and a late entry into this debate so please indulge and educate..
So as per AS,
1) the T72 is outdated compared to Arjun and would have lost badly which is why the Army decided to exclude it from trials.
2) Arjun can fight or even beat the T-90 but the Army does not want to do a fair comparison.

Does this not tell me, a civilian citizen, that the Army is not acting in the nation's best interests in this issue? Many things can be contemplated but those are scary scenarios. One wonders really, are any of the deal makers being watched?

[Anabhaya]

Does this not tell me, a civilian citizen, that the Army is not acting in the nation's best interests in this issue? Many things can be contemplated but those are scary scenarios. One wonders really, are any of the deal makers being watched?

The decision makers of IA need not be necessarily be corrupt to have made a wrong decision. It doesn't do any of us any good to cite corruption for there is little evidence.

Less alarming but more dangerous is the possibility of IA having stagnated. Organizational inertia going against radically new solutions and paradigms being adopted. The IA has become a less dynamic, less innovative - ossified organization in terms of reforms, re-organization and technology adoption. As a Lt-Gen would put it the last time we saw radical reforms was in late 1980's. It has been thirty years.

[rohitvats]

I am a newbie and a late entry into this debate so please indulge and educate..

So as per AS,

1) the T72 is outdated compared to Arjun and would have lost badly which is why the Army decided to exclude it from trials.

2) Arjun can fight or even beat the T-90 but the Army does not want to do a fair comparison.

Does this not tell me, a civilian citizen, that the Army is not acting in the nation's best interests in this issue? Many things can be contemplated but those are scary scenarios. One wonders really, are any of the deal makers being watched?

1) Correct.
2) IA did the trials recently (AS report). But instead of matching the two tanks head on head on pre-defined parameters, as would be the case in any comparative trials - MRCA trials being the example, it modified the trial set-up. It set-up a trial with Squadron worth (14 tanks) of tanks on each side. So, what should have been comparative trial pure and simple, became an exercise in comparative tactics. In short, how a squadron of Arjun tanks did versus a squadron of T-90. Quite ingenious, is it not? But guess what, here again the Arjun tanks came out on top.

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>

Less alarming but more dangerous is the possibility of IA having stagnated. Organizational inertia going against radically new solutions and paradigms being adopted.

I'm of the opinion that it is the case mentioned above.If you see all the example of points held against Arjun, they all point to classic case of old verus new debate...

[Karan M]

There is also a with us or against us factor at play. Army/services inculcate spirit of extreme loyalty and going against the decision once taken is taken as disloyalty. Those Army men who support Arjun find themselves facing accusations/pressure. This when combined with civil-military divide puts Arjun at severe disadvantage, as it is seen to be from the same incompetent civilians who are again interfering in Army matters.

http://www.business-standard.com/common ... ono=326234

That same month, 43 Armoured Regiment, which is the first army tank unit equipped with the Arjun, pronounced itself delighted with the Arjun's firing performance. After firing trials in summer 2006, 43 Armoured Regiment endorsed: "The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun have been proved beyond doubt."

But the establishment was quick to strike back. Barely three months after that report, the commanding officer of 43 Armoured Regiment, Colonel D Thakur, was confronted by the then Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen DS Shekhawat. Eyewitnesses describe how he was upbraided for "not conducting the trials properly". But in a career-threatening display of professional integrity, Colonel Thakur's brigade commander, Brigadier Chandra Mukesh, intervened to insist that the trials had been conducted correctly.

In one parliamentary record, the Army representative even goes on record attacking Army officers who are deputed to work with R&D as "having forgotten the olive green".

These two things, added to which is the absence of an Army "Design and Development Office" ie which can work on developing systems to Army doctrine (at least GSQR) and assist in project management and further development/ fault rectification, means that the Army often:

- Is the customer not a co-owner of a national program
- Treats a national program as something forced on itself and is often at odds with the development agency
- Will import to supplant the program
- Does not have the organizational wherewithal to ensure it gets the correct equipment for its needs (case in point, the T-90 still having sight failures)

Add in further problems with acquisition (there too, the Army has a role to play) and the end result is a large organization, which despite funding cannot get the equipment it needs or even have it developed inhouse. A case in point here is also the 155mm arty, where the Army made no concerted effort to have even a 80% system (MK1) developed as a fallback for delays in imports of the Bofors, and today it is scrambling for obsolete 130mm from Russian stocks so as to equip its formations.

[sugriva]

If tommorrow it turns out that the Army deliberately and consistently promoted the T-90, knowing fully well that it was a sub-standard system, then what action can be taken against erring officers. Can the COAS be asked by RM to initiate court-martial proceedings against these officers? How will action be taken against officers who have retired? Will their pensions be stopped?

[rohitvats]

Just for reference, came across this pic of Arjun firing LAHAT ATGM:



Also, has anyone noticed the Cap Badge of the 43rd Armored Regiment? It is the Chariot of Arjun in Kurukshetra, led by the fountainhead of wisdom, Lord Krishna..how apt

Check this:

[rohitvats]

If tommorrow it turns out that the Army deliberately and consistently promoted the T-90, knowing fully well that it was a sub-standard system, then what action can be taken against erring officers. Can the COAS be asked by RM to initiate court-martial proceedings against these officers? How will action be taken against officers who have retired? Will their pensions be stopped?

Let us not get into speculative territory...there are more than one factor at play here. And Court Martial is a very strong term and should not be used in such a easy manner.

[Rahul M]

If tommorrow it turns out that the Army deliberately and consistently promoted the T-90, knowing fully well that it was a sub-standard system, then what action can be taken against erring officers. Can the COAS be asked by RM to initiate court-martial proceedings against these officers? How will action be taken against officers who have retired? Will their pensions be stopped?

this kind of speculation has no place here. cease and desist.

[Austin]

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/ ... ur-of.html

Vital facts on the Russian T-90 tank deal were suppressed and its performance on the field has been poor.

The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.[/b]

If what Mr Ajai shukla says is indeed true then why is no action taken against MOD ? Obviously if Mr Ajai Shukla is speaking the truth then there would be question raised on hiding facts from Parliament and privilege motion passed against Mr AK invoked

Its a fallacy to think that either IA or DRDO can tell the GOI what it should do and what it should not , its not their business to tell GOI why they should procure x system over y system and pay x amount over y.

If the current trials indeed prove path breaking for Arjun and the GOI orders in many hundreds then all credit to GOI for supporting the move.

[Karan M]

If what Mr Ajai shukla says is indeed true then why is no action taken against MOD ? Obviously if Mr Ajai Shukla is speaking the truth then there would be question raised on hiding facts from Parliament and privilege motion passed against Mr AK invoked

Good joke.

Where has the action been taken against the current MOD or anyone for:

1. Gorshkov fiasco (compare to what was promised, and for how much, and to todays state)
2. Scorpene fiasco (see the price escalation and delays)
3. The complete non performance vis a vis planned inductions for the Army in the most recent budgeted plan
.. and many more equally good performance issues (such as the surrendering of vast amounts of capex every year, to the Fin Min)

What about this:

The T-90 case has remarkable parallels to the issues mentioned here:

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2007/05/ ... needs.html

The CAG, in its latest report on foreign defence deals, has sharply criticised the army for a plethora of shortcomings in its structure and procedures for buying military arms and equipment from foreign vendors. The CAG report No 4 of 2007, which minutely examines 37 separate defence acquisitions between the period 2003 and 2006, is particularly critical about the way the army takes the very first step towards buying military equipment: deciding exactly what it needs.

Any householder buying an expensive item first decides what she needs. If the purchase is a refrigerator, she chooses a size that fits the number of family members and the space she has to install the refrigerator. Functions like frost-free and bottle space depend on household usage. And, importantly, there's the element of opportunity cost; choosing a fancy model with an ice dispenser means having to go without that blender she also needs.

The military's Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) is supposed to start with an identical process, identifying precise requirements for the equipment proposed to be purchased. Laying down those requirements in the form of General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR) is the first, and the most vital, part of any procurement. According to the CAG, the army goes wrong from this very first step.

The CAG report, in unusually blunt terms, points out that GSQRs have been wrongly formulated, reflecting neither the army's own requirements, nor the reality of the market. In the GSQRs for 11 purchases that were scrutinised, the CAG found that four spelt out requirements that were unavailable anywhere in the world. In four cases, the requirements "were unrealistic with respect to the actual requirements on the ground," which means that they did not meet the army's operational needs. And in seven cases, there was no way of testing whether the equipment met the parameters specified in the GSQRs.

The CAB observed that unrealistic GSQRs meant that, "in 66% of the cases, only a single vendor was pre-qualified." In "single-vendor" cases, the vendor's monopoly means that he can virtually dictate his own price. Even more serious was the CAG's observation that GSQRs were formulated "sometimes merely on the basis of manufacturer's brochure." Global vendors, admittedly with vested interests, have long alleged that Indian GSQRs are formulated to favour particular vendors. The CAG comes close to confirming that.

So as no action has been taken does that mean the CAG and AS who quoted them were incorrect? If that is the case, why was no action taken against them, per your stated line of logic.

Rather, the T-90 is just one drop in the bucket.

Clearly, your claim that "action would be taken against the MOD" if the article was true (implying it was not) is not worth considering, given that the GOI would have to take action against its own appointed politician running its own MOD, wherein his predecessor is now in the equally or even more powerful MOF position.

Further, you reference that action be taken against the MOD, but avoided mentioning the Army, for the MOD was just doing what the Army asked of it, which was to get in the T-90 fast!

So, the MOD is to be penalized for serving its constituents wishes, come what may, whereas many on this forum and the internet claim that is exactly what the MOD should be doing, but no admission of the Army's procurement boondoggle is to be made?

So deny that the problem exists, then how is one to fix it, and the end result are (pointless) claims of corruption whereas the fault lies in organizational inertia and flawed procurement procedures.

Its a fallacy to think that either IA or DRDO can tell the GOI what it should do and what it should not , its not their business to tell GOI why they should procure x system over y system and pay x amount over y.

Repeating the above same statement again and again, when enough proof has been provided to disprove it, is the actual fallacy.

As Rohitvats and rahulm have demonstrated, each and every statement you have made so far has a counterpoint, which you have refused to acknowledge.

The last straw you clutched at was that it was the GOI which made the decision and it was hence neutral and right. The above article clearly shows that there was significant fudging from the GOI itself to get the army its chosen piece of equipment, the T-90.

Furthermore, enough evidence has already been provided via the Standing Committee on Defence from the Parliament which shows the Arjun to be the superior tank vis a vis the T-90, which by itself should have been enough. That too has had little effect.

So in all, you are just trying to defend what cannot be, by now claiming that it is the GOI which makes the final decision and it was somehow correct, and it was not the Army itself which pushed for the T-90. If this is not deliberate denial of the reality, what is.

If the current trials indeed prove path breaking for Arjun and the GOI orders in many hundreds then all credit to GOI for supporting the move.

The issue is not just in the GOIs hands but the Armys as well. The GOI does not run roughshod over what the Army feels insofar equipment inductions are concerned. If it is too expensive or allegations of corruption are made, they retender/ go slow. But the days of forcing the Army to buy what it does not want are gone.

If things were as easy or black and white as you infer, the all powerful GOI would have ensured hundreds of Arjuns were ordered several years back itself, by which time it was clear the Arjuns issues were moreorless solved, whilst those of the T-90's remained.

Instead, the Arjun was put through more trials while comparative trials were delayed (so as to prevent the T-90 from being shown up) and more T-90s were ordered even while the TOT was not forthcoming, and thermal imager issues persisted.

The issue is not merely with the MOD or its parent GOI, the issue is also that the Army must accept the Arjun induction. It cannot be just forced on them. That is not how things work.

[Misraji]

^^^

One of the worst things about the Gorshkov saga is that a Keypubs poster named Jonesy
had predicted way back (either in 2007 or in 2008) that there was no way Gorshkov could
be completed in time and would be available at the best from 2012-2013.

And this was just by looking at then available photos of Gorshkov.

The Indian posters had opposed him tooth and nail quoting Navy and Russian source.
And what do we have now?? A necessary mess on our hands.

Regards,
Ashish.

PS: I will try to dig up the post.

[Austin]

Good joke.

Where has the action been taken against the current MOD or anyone for:

1. Gorshkov fiasco (compare to what was promised, and for how much, and to todays state)
2. Scorpene fiasco (see the price escalation and delays)
3. The complete non performance vis a vis planned inductions for the Army in the most recent budgeted plan
.. and many more equally good performance issues (such as the surrendering of vast amounts of capex every year, to the Fin Min)

Sure there is systematic corruption and no one neither the GOI nor the opposition or the people has done anything about it .

So as no action has been taken does that mean the CAG and AS who quoted them were incorrect? If that is the case, why was no action taken against them, per your stated line of logic.

If GOI took action based on CAG report then most of the politician would have ended in jail by now , CAG report AFAIK is non binding on the GOI.

Clearly, your claim that "action would be taken against the MOD" if the article was true (implying it was not) is not worth considering, given that the GOI would have to take action against its own appointed politician running its own MOD, wherein his predecessor is now in the equally or even more powerful MOF position.

Tell me what are you going to do about it ?

Will you file a PIL based on CAG or AS report and bring the guilty to justice ?

Further, you reference that action be taken against the MOD, but avoided mentioning the Army, for the MOD was just doing what the Army asked of it, which was to get in the T-90 fast!

No if the Army was responsible along with MOD or Politician then they should be brought to justice with what ever means possible.

So deny that the problem exists, then how is one to fix it, and the end result are (pointless) claims of corruption whereas the fault lies in organizational inertia and flawed procurement procedures.

No body is denying it , every one knows and its a open secret that every defence procurement has kickbacks involved , but no one has ever done any thing to fix it.

Repeating the above same statement again and again, when enough proof has been provided to disprove it, is the actual fallacy.

I am not repeating these statements nor is that a fallacy , go figure out how does defence procurement works and how it is impossible for any single institution to manipulate it and get its way.

Defence procurement is a multi stage process and the decision to procure it or cancel it rest with GOI ( CCSA ) the final decision making body of GOI.

T-90 has gone through similar multi stage process and GOI ( CCSA ) has approved these defence deals , much like Gorshkov or Scorpene or any other big ticket defence deal.

Infact the orders in different stages were approved by GOI of BJP and Congress

Please point to me what is wrong in what i said ?

As Rohitvats and rahulm have demonstrated, each and every statement you have made so far has a counterpoint, which you have refused to acknowledge.

I have a disagreement on what they have said , so I just agree to disagree with them

The last straw you clutched at was that it was the GOI which made the decision and it was hence neutral and right. The above article clearly shows that there was significant fudging from the GOI itself to get the army its chosen piece of equipment, the T-90.

So every one is fudging here , Army , MOD , GOI .... so we are not in a good state of affairs then isnt it ?

Furthermore, enough evidence has already been provided via the Standing Committee on Defence from the Parliament which shows the Arjun to be the superior tank vis a vis the T-90, which by itself should have been enough. That too has had little effect.

True it seems the GOI disagrees with the Standing Committee on Defence and did not opted for superior Arjun

So in all, you are just trying to defend what cannot be, by now claiming that it is the GOI which makes the final decision and it was somehow correct, and it was not the Army itself which pushed for the T-90. If this is not deliberate denial of the reality, what is.

I never said that the GOI decision was correct or wrong , I just said that in every stage of T-90 deal GOI was involved and that they are the final decision making authority , not the IA , not the DRDO , nor the MOD.

The issue is not just in the GOIs hands but the Armys as well. The GOI does not run roughshod over what the Army feels insofar equipment inductions are concerned. If it is too expensive or allegations of corruption are made, they retender/ go slow. But the days of forcing the Army to buy what it does not want are gone.

The GOI is within its right to disagree with Army , MOD or DRDO suggestion and make a decision , it the prerogative of GOI , it may agree to suggestion of Army , DRDO and MOD as well

If things were as easy or black and white as you infer, the all powerful GOI would have ensured hundreds of Arjuns were ordered several years back itself, by which time it was clear the Arjuns issues were moreorless solved, whilst those of the T-90's remained.

True , we do not know the circumstances under which succession Government has allowed such a go ahead to procure the T-90 in big numbers.

Instead, the Arjun was put through more trials while comparative trials were delayed (so as to prevent the T-90 from being shown up) and more T-90s were ordered even while the TOT was not forthcoming, and thermal imager issues persisted.

So now that the comparative trials are done and few blogs claim that Arjun was superior , will GOI order thousand more Arjun ?

The issue is not merely with the MOD or its parent GOI, the issue is also that the Army must accept the Arjun induction. It cannot be just forced on them. That is not how things work.

The Army will accept what ever GOI provides them with , it may not always be possible to procure top of the line stuff for various reason , but it is not the business of the Army to tell the GOI what decision they should take , the decision making authority is solely the prerogative of GOI .

The IA ( like IN/IAF ) does the field test and provides the result to MOD and thats where it end its role , The Army like other defence service has to abide by the decision of GOI , if any clarification is required the GOI asks the MOD or Defence Service to provide the same.

[rohitvats]

Austin, while rest of your post is not worth replying to, let me point out a factual mistake in your observation:

True it seems the GOI disagrees with the Standing Committee on Defence and did not opted for superior Arjun

It is not the PSD that says that Arjun is superior to T-90, it is the MOD which said so in reply to the questions raised by PSD...in case you'd made effort to read what was posted, the same should have been clear to you...

Read this again:

The Ministry was asked to give comparative table of production cost, features and capability of Arjun Tank with original and upgraded T-90 and T-72 Tank.

The Ministry replied as under :- “MBT Arjun is a 60 tonne class battle tank with state of the art optro-electronic power-packed control system, weapon management system and high performance suspension. It is a product unique in its class specifically configured for Indian Army requirement. Unlike T-90 tank which was primarily built for Russian Armed Forces, adapted by Indian Army for certain specific roles, this T-90 is a 50 tonne class vehicle which does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun. But it is an improved system over T-72 tank.

[Austin]

^^^ I have read that statement , it acknowledges the fact that Arjun is superior tank , but they so far have refrained from ordering it , i find it quite interesting indeed.

Come to think about it when compared to H bum scam that the GOI thrusted on the nation and got away with it , the Arjun affair wont do any harm to them .... Well ways of GOI

[Cain Marko]

OT, but have to say this - mark my words, when the time comes and the proverbial back is against the wall; it'll be the Arjuns and the Tejas that'll make all the difference!

CM

^^^

One of the worst things about the Gorshkov saga is that a Keypubs poster named Jonesy
had predicted way back (either in 2007 or in 2008) that there was no way Gorshkov could
be completed in time and would be available at the best from 2012-2013.

And this was just by looking at then available photos of Gorshkov.
.

Indeed I remember it quite well, the back and forth between Nick and Jonesy was entertaining and informative. Point is, if Jonesy could figure that out from a few pics; and assuming the Russkis were either too desperate or too Machiavellian to care, what does it say about the IN inspection teams who went there? And not just the initial inspection, but the continued "all is well" type of public statements and that too from the highest level, in what should've been eminently clear to them as a no show.

Whether it is the Arjun or the Tejas or whatever else, there is little doubt that designs to bury indigenous products are quite rampant at all levels and in all the organizations involved. Point is,like Austin said, it is the GOI that makes the real decision and sets the precedent. Considering the desire for babus and netas to fill personal coffers; sooner or later the AFs were going to succumb. JMT

CM.

[rohitvats]

...<SNIP>..Whether it is the Arjun or the Tejas or whatever else, there is little doubt that designs to bury indigenous products are quite rampant at all levels and in all the organizations involved. Point is,like Austin said, it is the GOI that makes the real decision and sets the precedent. Considering the desire for babus and netas to fill personal coffers; sooner or later the AFs were going to succumb. JMT

CM.

CM, in case of Arjun, it is the Army that has been the main opposition block and has made noises at every possible occasion to deride the product. This opposition is pretty well documented from mid 90s and a former COAS himself has mentioned it. If the import lobby hitches a free ride on this and pushes the tin cans, it is the Indian Army which needs to shoulder the blame....

[Cain Marko]

...<SNIP>..Whether it is the Arjun or the Tejas or whatever else, there is little doubt that designs to bury indigenous products are quite rampant at all levels and in all the organizations involved. Point is,like Austin said, it is the GOI that makes the real decision and sets the precedent. Considering the desire for babus and netas to fill personal coffers; sooner or later the AFs were going to succumb. JMT

CM.

CM, in case of Arjun, it is the Army that has been the main opposition block and has made noises at every possible occasion to deride the product. This opposition is pretty well documented from mid 90s and a former COAS himself has mentioned it. If the import lobby hitches a free ride on this and pushes the tin cans, it is the Indian Army which needs to shoulder the blame....

I understand, the thing is though - the IA afterall is only following its leadership (GOI/babudom) span by span, cubit by cubit. Further, we can't truly rule out that coffers of non army chaps were not benefited by the T90 deal can we? Perhaps the brass was only to eager to comply with their masters at Raksha bhavan?

In any case, I hope they wind up ordering a good 1000 Arjun as T72 replacements. Just to save face. I dunno about morale in the services, but this would certainly boost the morale of their beleaguered countrymen (phed up by now saar).

If one thinks about it - now they really don't have a reason NOT to place a huge order It is obviously a competent bit of hardware and someone (either the Army or Mr. "indigenius" Antony) needs to take the higher ground and forcefeed a good thousand.

CM.