MRCA News and Discussion

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 17 Apr 2010 14:58

Shatack wrote:
aircraft carrier kicking ass of taliban and typhoon each exercise seems to me a good operational experience!

I'll believe it beat it Typhoon when the details of the exercises are released. Until then its speculation.

Uk and Italy are cutting 2/3 of T3 with no real upgrade on their own "final" product, UK sells even thiers to Saudies, and they don't get the rid of F35B who is as costly as typhoon, and less capable on the paper! countries that doesn't support their own design phylosophy looks suspect!
it seems you are asking yourself wrong questions!

F-35B orders haven't been cut, by virtue of never having been placed. But, while we're on the topic, of the two QE class ACs, only one is now scheduled to field the F-35. That's basically a cut in half of the eventual number of F-35s to be ordered.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 888962.ece

"The Eurofighter project is a disaster of unknown cost, since the MoD ceased releasing figures once they passed £20bn. Only four Typhoons (as the plane has been rebranded) have ever been deployed outside Britain: to the Falklands, where they safeguard sheep and penguins. That is about all they are good for, since they were designed three decades ago to fight the Soviets."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... wrong-wars

For one, that's an opinion piece. And secondly, it comments on the direction of defence spending not on how the Eurofighter performs with regard to its peers.

seems the Uk is getting rid of tranche 3A in nice price deal with oman!
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 0To%20Oman

No tranche 3B, no AESA, No TVC, no no no....

Why do the specifics of the Tranche 2B concern India? The Eurofighter still has a far larger order book than the Rafale. Dassault for example has produced something like 75 Rafales in the last ten years. That's pitiful 7.5 aircraft a year. If I subscribed to your logic, I'd say the French military wasn't interested in the Rafale either.

And the IAF's Typhoons will come with an AESA and if it so requires, TVC as well.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 17 Apr 2010 20:57

All this talk of F-35 is fanciful! With the per unit cost around $135-150 million due to cost overruns, is it really affordable for India? Look at the article that i have posted in the international aerospace thread about recent cost escalations. And this price is without the armaments or spares and logistics that will easily added more than a billion dollars by itself.

We are yet to see if we will really get 126 fighters for $10-11 billion, and people are already talking about F-35 where we may not even get half that quantity for those prices

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 17 Apr 2010 21:26

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE5B61L720091207

UK is confidetn that it will get source, its a newer article than the one you posted. We arent talking about getting the source code for the f-35, we're talking about getting the source code for the f-16 and f-18, knowing that Israel got the source code for the f-16 and f-15, i am confident US will give it for the f-18 and f-16. I can understand why the US is hesitant of giving the source codes for the f-35, they spent years and billions developing, they want to have the comfort of knowing that they have it till atleast production ramps up, they as of now cant give it, because the f-35 is still being tested. Once the aircraft is proven and is functioning as it was intended to, they'll give it to close allies.

As for the f-18 and f-16 they'll give it i am sure of it.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 17 Apr 2010 21:37

What has testing to do with it?? Obviously, no one will share the souce codes till all kinks are ironed out.

It is a major policy decision of US to share the source codes only with Israel and no one else. It may change in the future, but there is no guarantee. And it is not related to testing at all

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 17 Apr 2010 21:39

putnanja wrote:All this talk of F-35 is fanciful! With the per unit cost around $135-150 million due to cost overruns, is it really affordable for India? Look at the article that i have posted in the international aerospace thread about recent cost escalations. And this price is without the armaments or spares and logistics that will easily added more than a billion dollars by itself.

We are yet to see if we will really get 126 fighters for $10-11 billion, and people are already talking about F-35 where we may not even get half that quantity for those prices

F-35 is just a comparison. However I hope the decisionmakers are not biting the "We'll give you 35's if you buy 16s" bait the way the Romanians are!

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 18 Apr 2010 03:29

putnanja wrote:What has testing to do with it?? Obviously, no one will share the souce codes till all kinks are ironed out.

It is a major policy decision of US to share the source codes only with Israel and no one else. It may change in the future, but there is no guarantee. And it is not related to testing at all

testing has everything to do with it, you certainly wont iron out all the kinks sitting in a hanger on the ground. You have to get out and fly. So the functioning of the source codes is constantly being tested during the flight test program and kinks will be ironed out as they appear. Its about to change because US will give source codes for the SV and SH.

Almost all the comptitive vendors except the US vendors have put out all their cards out front already, US has many cards up its sleeve and will pull them one by one just before judgement day. These deal busting cards will be pulled out during the last weeks of decision time and they'll win. Its their business nature.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 18 Apr 2010 03:43

Brahmananda wrote:testing has everything to do with it, you certainly wont iron out all the kinks sitting in a hanger on the ground. You have to get out and fly. So the functioning of the source codes is constantly being tested during the flight test program and kinks will be ironed out as they appear. Its about to change because US will give source codes for the SV and SH.

SV and SH are nearing their production runs, and no wonder US will share some aspects of it. However, there is no way that US will share F-35 source codes. It hasn't even shared it with UK which has ordered 138 of them. US is not withholding the F35 source code because it is in testing phase. If that was the only reason, UK wouldn't even worry about it. And no one even wants to have access to the source code during hte testing phase as quite a few things will change from initial to final version. I don't know where you got the idea that once testing is over, US will share the F35 source code.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 18 Apr 2010 09:22

Marten wrote:^ Teens will win, eh? Please specify clearly that is your opinion unless this is the Matrix and you're the Oracle. So much bombast that it takes away any credibility from statements made.

This fellow is like that Abhiman chap ("Mr. Thank you") we once had around these parts (any body remember him?

) . Good thing was, that boy was stuck on the Tejas as a panacea for all things, Mr. B'ananda is likewise stuck, but in this case it is with the teens. Happens time to time really; people get stuck with stuff, since stuff can get really sticky too - even good ol' Austin was once stuck on a very fair lady Took the better part of a year and a major effort by stalwarts like JC and GJ to get our man off that binge!

CM

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Apr 2010 11:21

It is the cost factor which I've been saying for long which will have the max effect upon the decision.From the massive analysis of the contenders over the last year,it does appear that any one of four types will suffice.The F-16 (being used by Pak) and the most expensive (guess which one?) can take their bow right now and the winner will be decided by a mix of international political pressure and the internal core of the Congress party.The IAF will have given their plusses and minusses of each type making ti easy for the GOI to choose whatever it wants.Out of the remaining four,the cheapest (all round cost-effectiveness), if it meets all the parameters of the IAF's brief,plus powerful political backing,will be the frontrunner.If the prices quoted for all are rather close together-bunched up,it could make for some v.interesting bargaining.Some contests which might be decided before the Indian decision could be of crucial help to the manufacturer.However,as some have pointed out,the Typhoon is a v.expensive Cold War bird,for which there are cheaper alternatives.If it is to win,then I can only hazard that it offers us a massive and total TOT package far superior to any of the other contenders,covering every component from engines to radar and weaponry.With the SU-30MKI already in nservice,the Typhoon would seem an excessive buy,especially when a suprior bird will come within a few years,the PAK-FA 5th-gen fighter.

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 18 Apr 2010 12:10

There is no point talking about the f-35 source codes is it, whether they'll give it or not will depend, if the UK threatens to stop buying the 138 f-35s it wants to acquire what then? what if due to inflexibility of the US Govt. many of the F-35 partners choose to call it quits. Denmark is already pulling out the f-35 and leaning towards the SH, so if all the partners choose to leave, they'll loose around 700 aircraft in orders? will they still withold the source codes or will they atleast let the customers cutstomize it. Once the f-35 is operational, they'll have to atleast let customization of the f-35's source codes and give it to some customers atleat or else they risk loosing lots of orders.

Regarding the SH and SV, its in their best interest to give full-tot and source codes, such a large order will allow for lines to be open for a while longer, secondly will give confidence to other potential cutomers to order them, multiplier effect. I know they'll give full-tot and source codes also because the competition demands it, they will because in order to stay competitive with the mig-35, Rafale and Gripen NG, they will have to match. Towards the end of the competition, there will be tremondous pressure from companies in the US on lawmakers and govt. offcials to allow this to happen. In the end every congress man and senator will try to protect the jobs and the economics of their constituencies, so they will end up giving it to us. The order can reach over 200 aircraft + weapons + service package that is a lot of money on a local level to a lot of states and places where the logistical chain extends.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 18 Apr 2010 14:08

Interesting doco on ze Gripen...
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/HpViZiHixOQ/

Shatack · Post by **Shatack** » 18 Apr 2010 14:53

Viv S wrote:
I'll believe it beat it Typhoon when the details of the exercises are released. Until then its speculation.

F-35B orders haven't been cut, by virtue of never having been placed. But, while we're on the topic, of the two QE class ACs, only one is now scheduled to field the F-35. That's basically a cut in half of the eventual number of F-35s to be ordered.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 888962.ece

For one, that's an opinion piece. And secondly, it comments on the direction of defence spending not on how the Eurofighter performs with regard to its peers.

And the IAF's Typhoons will come with an AESA and if it so requires, TVC as well.

dream on, your AESA will never comes, and if it comes it will be with actual back end system, TVC?
lol! typhoon is 85millions € plane with a rather T2 config, partner nations will not buy any upgrade for the 15 years to come neither T3B! Selex is a tiny comp doing cheap low cost radar systems, that will still make "demonstrator" in 2015, AoG capabilities aren't even on the table, Austrian angers about cost and unavaible planes, this makes alot to not be very interesting to the eyes of Indians Mindef, as it failed in Korea , Sing, Brazil, Netherland , norway, etc...

as about supercruise, typhoon being 11.5t i doubt it can sustain it, you could critisise the french, but their M88-cgp 9t and AESA are into production to be on 2011 batch and will be Gan MMIcs in 2015, they got 25 years in airborn ESA dopling forming modes experience, their Spectra system or OSF is no match for anyone biding for MRCA.. as about sources of typhoon kicking ass, thier Mindef debreiffing and official air force leaders gets all details through main medias ..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Apr 2010 15:10

Cain Marko wrote:Austin was once stuck on a very fair lady Took the better part of a year and a major effort by stalwarts like JC and GJ to get our man off that binge!

CM

CM I still love my Fair English Lady , but these days its too risky at BR to say that you like something or like IA you end up shouldering most of the blame , because GOI happened to choose that

So I oppose Typhoon and all MMRCA contenders tooth and nail and let me steal the words of a good soul and say I want Tejas Mk2 to be chosen as MMRCA ..... its quite safe you know

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 18 Apr 2010 15:21

Austin wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Austin was once stuck on a very fair lady Took the better part of a year and a major effort by stalwarts like JC and GJ to get our man off that binge!

CM
CM I still love my English Fair Lady , but these days its too risky at BR to say that you like something or like IA you end up shouldering most of the blame , because GOI happened to choose that

So I oppose Typhoon and all MMRCA contenders tooth and nail and let me steal the words of a good soul and say I want Tejas Mk2 to be chosen as MMRCA ..... its quite safe you know

Hey Looks like I have missed some fun.

Who is this My Fair lady ? Audrey Hepburn ? Sophia Loren, Britney Spears ?

Or is it EF Typhoon ?

K

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Apr 2010 15:33

Kersi D wrote:Who is this My Fair lady ? Audrey Hepburn ? Sophia Loren, Britney Spears ?

Or is it EF Typhoon ?

K

Typhoon Sir , BR is a family only forum

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 18 Apr 2010 21:53

Shatack wrote:
dream on, your AESA will never comes, and if it comes it will be with actual back end system, TVC?

So Eurofighter Gmbh doesn't know what the heck its talking about, but you do?

lol! typhoon is 85millions € plane with a rather T2 config, partner nations will not buy any upgrade for the 15 years to come neither T3B! AoG capabilities aren't even on the table, Austrian angers about cost and unavaible planes,

Flight Global says its €63 million. These price quotes don't mean jack. Especially when you bring production at HAL into the picture.

this makes alot to not be very interesting to the eyes of Indians Mindef, as it failed in Korea , Sing, Brazil, Netherland , norway, etc...

I hope you realise that that the only one of those countries any of the MRCA contenders won was Brazil, where it may be ordered but only as a part of a larger package. Its in any case in a cloud of controversy right now. Your argument was sound if you were plugging for the F-15E or F-35.

Selex is a tiny comp doing cheap low cost radar systems, that will still make "demonstrator" in 2015

The same tiny comp is building the Gripen's AESA but you don't hear the same crap about the NG. And the Euroradar consortium includes EADS and Indra in addition to SELEX. And they had a demonstrator flying before the Russians, French or the Swedes.

as about supercruise, typhoon being 11.5t i doubt it can sustain it,

Your doubts aside, the Eurofighter has demonstrated sustained supercruise in trials quite a while back. It can't do Mach 1.5 with a full weapons load, but neither can anyone of its peers.

you could critisise the french, but their M88-cgp 9t and AESA are into production to be on 2011 batch and will be Gan MMIcs in 2015, they got 25 years in airborn ESA dopling forming modes experience, their Spectra system or OSF is no match for anyone biding for MRCA..

Thank you. I shall now proceed to do so. Their M-88 and AESA are not in fact in production and considering the Rafale's piddly rate of production its anyone's guess how many aircraft are even produced after 2011. And seeing as the IAF doesn't expect deliveries as soon as 2011, the 'advantage' is moot. With regard to 25 year experience with ESAs, the main reason they've been so frantic with their AESA program is because the RBE-2 PESA is thoroughly outperformed by its peers like the Captor or Bars.

as about sources of typhoon kicking ass, thier Mindef debreiffing and official air force leaders gets all details through main medias ..

As I said before until the details of the exercise(where it supposedly won) are disclosed publicly, the Rafale's 'victory' is plain speculation.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 19 Apr 2010 00:08

Brahmananda wrote:http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE5B61L720091207

UK is confidetn that it will get source, its a newer article than the one you posted. We arent talking about getting the source code for the f-35, we're talking about getting the source code for the f-16 and f-18, knowing that Israel got the source code for the f-16 and f-15, i am confident US will give it for the f-18 and f-16. I can understand why the US is hesitant of giving the source codes for the f-35, they spent years and billions developing, they want to have the comfort of knowing that they have it till atleast production ramps up, they as of now cant give it, because the f-35 is still being tested. Once the aircraft is proven and is functioning as it was intended to, they'll give it to close allies.

As for the f-18 and f-16 they'll give it i am sure of it.

About the F-35, they are "confident", which mean they have no idea until the "ink is on the paper". It can also be interpreted as they are pushing the americans to give it up. Personally, we'll have to see, they have been saying both "yes" and "no" about the source code.

But when it comes to the F/A-18 SH or F-16 IN, I'm positive that they would give India the source codes.

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 19 Apr 2010 00:15

Rafale is very expensive to maintain and operate over its life time. Lots of the weapons it deploys are 2 to 3 times more expensive and lacks orders, it lost many deals as well far more compared to the EF. EF on any day is more than a match for the Rafale any given day even without AESA. Rafale has a lil chance of winning in Brazil only due to political reasons. Truth be told none of the contenders match the availability, reliability or combat proven effectiveness of the SH. none of the contenders except SH will be able to deliver full spec versions of their aircraft anytime before 2014. Taking in account the cost over life time, availability, quick deliveires, reasonably priced service and weapons package the SH will win. Full-tot, source codes included.

They will give full-tot and source codes for the SH and SV, they know thats the only way they can be a sure win, they'll announce it towards the final weeks of decision time. Anyways in 10 days all the previous offers will expire. waiting for the shortlists eagerly.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Apr 2010 00:39

On "software", IIRC, the denial was for the AESA. Was there talk of other software (in public)?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Apr 2010 00:44

Fighter improvements follow Singapore defeat

Following the selection of the Boeing F-15SG by Singapore’s defence ministry, the unsuccessful contenders have both made attempts to address the issues that counted against them during the Singaporean evaluation.

The Dassault Rafale was evaluated immediately after the last Asian Aerospace show and suffered poor serviceability, so that plans for Singaporean pilots to fly the (reportedly radarless) example of the single-seater were abandoned, while the two-seater lacked the standard of radar that was being offered, necessitating the deployment of a Dassault Mirage 2000 to demonstrate the radar and avionics.

Although the passive electronically scanned array (PESA) RBE2 radar offers many advantages, its range was inadequate, and to remedy this France is reviewing its 2004 order for 59 Rafales, and is likely to reduce this to 51 aircraft "for the same overall cost", with the sacrifice of eight to 12 aircraft paying for radar development work.

For Eurofighter’s Typhoon, the problem was different. It has been widely acknowledged that the aircraft performed well in Singapore’s evaluations, with performance, agility and radar performance coming in for particular praise. The Typhoon also demonstrated impeccable serviceability during the evaluation, and was able to demonstrate everything that the Republic of Singapore Air Force wanted to see, including supercruise, when its competitors could not.

The aircraft was able to climb to operating altitude without making a tortuous series of turns to avoid Malaysian airspace, on one occasion blasting off from Paya Lebar and flying to 26,000ft (7,930m) before reaching the airfield boundary .

Industry insiders suggest that Eurofighter are better placed to provide Japan with the degree of technology transfer, local assembly and local modification/upgrade and weapons integration that the Japanese are likely to require.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... efeat.html

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Apr 2010 02:07

Viv S wrote: Fighter improvements follow Singapore defeat

That article is from Feb, 2006. Do any of those quotes apply here?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Apr 2010 02:48

NRao wrote:
Viv S wrote: Fighter improvements follow Singapore defeat
That article is from Feb, 2006. Do any of those quotes apply here?

Not so much with regard to the Rafale(except maybe the claim of poor serviceability), but those related to the Eurofighter still apply. The post was in response to Shatack who felt the EF losing the Singapore competition(as well as others) was a damning statement against its bid for the IAF's MMRCA contract.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Apr 2010 03:00

Viv S wrote:
NRao wrote:
That article is from Feb, 2006. Do any of those quotes apply here?
Not so much with regard to the Rafale(except maybe the claim of poor serviceability), but those related to the Eurofighter still apply. The post was in response to Shatack who felt the EF losing the Singapore competition(as well as others) was a damning statement against its bid for the IAF's MMRCA contract.

I have almost the same feelings as Viv S does here! There is no denying that in terms of flight characteristics, EF is one of the best in the MMRCA, if not the best!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Apr 2010 11:56

The EF is a "velly good" fighter,but when we already have the SU-30MKI in our stables,buying an inordinately expensive machine that will in a few years to come be inferior to the 5th-gen fighter in the development/proiduction pipeline,is counterproductive.We have to ask the Q,what good does it do to India's own domestic indigenous efforts? There are only two programmes on at the moment that make sense,the LCA and the 5th-gen fighter.The LCA,a low cost alternative to replacing our hundreds of MIG-21s and the 5th-gen stealth fighter to maintain our edge in air dominance for the next two decades.Both these programmes are meant to deliver cutting edge tech to the IAF.The MMRCA being a "medium" sized bird,clearly is meant to play the "middle" role,jack of all trades,that can swing effectively from strike to air defence and remain contemporary upto 2020 at least.It should also be affordable,especially as the LCA is inordinately delayed ,increasing the chances of the Gripen by the day.200 Gripens would be a good cost-effective replacement for the MIGs,regardless of how many LCAs we can also build by 2020,which from stated figures is about 120+ only.SO a few hundred Gripens ,plus the LCA would give us about equal numbers of MIG-21s which were inservice.Buying some more Flanker variants can offset the disdvantage of the MMRCA beign a "single-engined" Gripen.This would also simplifyy the inventory in the long term.Unlike other air froces who are also engaged in acquiring new aircraft,the IAF's MMRCA requirement does not call for the aircraft to be the best flying,as that role has been reserved for our Sukhois and in the future the 5th-gen fighter.

PS:Indranil,not at all.It was an assessment based upon the various contests worldwide,where the nations evaluating some of the same do not possess an aircraft like the Indian Flankers.I am trying to slot the MMRCA into a cost-effective framework keeping in mind the overall force structure of the IAF.The LCA had it been perfected and in production (latest wingeing from the COAS,PC,etc.),would've occupied the "light" slot,which is now still vacant .Therefore the Gripen has an opportunity to straddle both light and medium roles provided it meets the performance criteria at reasonable price too.Its shortcmings regarding endurance,payload,etc.which a larger twin-engined multi-role aircraft like several of the other contenders can be overcome by ordering more of the same (either Flanker variants or even another batch of about 60+ MIG-29/35s to augment /replace those in service).If the MIrage-2000s are also going to be upgraded,but at huge cost,the chances of the Gripen will further increase because of its lower cost when compared with its rivals.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Apr 2010 13:28

Philip wrote:The EF is a "velly good" fighter,but when we already have the SU-30MKI in our stables,buying an inordinately expensive machine that will in a few years to come be inferior to the 5th-gen fighter in the development/proiduction pipeline,is counterproductive.We have to ask the Q,what good does it do to India's own domestic indigenous efforts? There are only two programmes on at the moment that make sense,the LCA and the 5th-gen fighter.The LCA,a low cost alternative to replacing our hundreds of MIG-21s and the 5th-gen stealth fighter to maintain our edge in air dominance for the next two decades.Both these programmes are meant to deliver cutting edge tech to the IAF.The MMRCA being a "medium" sized bird,clearly is meant to play the "middle" role,jack of all trades,that can swing effectively from strike to air defence and remain contemporary upto 2020 at least.It should also be affordable,especially as the LCA is inordinately delayed ,increasing the chances of the Gripen by the day.200 Gripens would be a good cost-effective replacement for the MIGs,regardless of how many LCAs we can also build by 2020,which from stated figures is about 120+ only.SO a few hundred Gripens ,plus the LCA would give us about equal numbers of MIG-21s which were inservice.Buying some more Flanker variants can offset the disdvantage of the MMRCA beign a "single-engined" Gripen.This would also simplifyy the inventory in the long term.Unlike other air froces who are also engaged in acquiring new aircraft,the IAF's MMRCA requirement does not call for the aircraft to be the best flying,as that role has been reserved for our Sukhois and in the future the 5th-gen fighter.

PS:Indranil,not at all.It was an assessment based upon the various contests worldwide,where the nations evaluating some of the same do not possess an aircraft like the Indian Flankers.I am trying to slot the MMRCA into a cost-effective framework keeping in mind the overall force structure of the IAF.The LCA had it been perfected and in production (latest wingeing from the COAS,PC,etc.),would've occupied the "light" slot,which is now still vacant .Therefore the Gripen has an opportunity to straddle both light and medium roles provided it meets the performance criteria at reasonable price too.Its shortcmings regarding endurance,payload,etc.which a larger twin-engined multi-role aircraft like several of the other contenders can be overcome by ordering more of the same (either Flanker variants or even another batch of about 60+ MIG-29/35s to augment /replace those in service).If the MIrage-2000s are also going to be upgraded,but at huge cost,the chances of the Gripen will further increase because of its lower cost when compared with its rivals.

Thank you for the clarification

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 19 Apr 2010 15:01

Update on competition..

Then, the IAF will, by the end of April, complete its evaluation of the six jets contending for its order of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) in a deal worth $10 billion. "If all goes well, we should be able to zero in on the winner within 18 months, with the first aircraft arriving about a year after that" the IAF source said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 831485.cms

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Apr 2010 15:36

Philip wrote:The EF is a "velly good" fighter,but when we already have the SU-30MKI in our stables,buying an inordinately expensive machine that will in a few years to come be inferior to the 5th-gen fighter in the development/proiduction pipeline,is counterproductive.

If indeed it was inordinately expensive I'd agree. But, right now I'd withhold judgement until actual bids are released. While the Gripen NG will probably have a lower operating cost than its peers, it would be premature to say its acquisition would be substantially cheaper than others in the fray.

We have to ask the Q,what good does it do to India's own domestic indigenous efforts? There are only two programmes on at the moment that make sense,the LCA and the 5th-gen fighter.The LCA,a low cost alternative to replacing our hundreds of MIG-21s and the 5th-gen stealth fighter to maintain our edge in air dominance for the next two decades.Both these programmes are meant to deliver cutting edge tech to the IAF.

That's a valid argument if the object is to cancel the MMRCA altogether(which isn't a bad idea either).

The MMRCA being a "medium" sized bird,clearly is meant to play the "middle" role,jack of all trades,that can swing effectively from strike to air defence and remain contemporary upto 2020 at least.

Another perspective is - which aircraft of the lot, would the IAF rather be operating in... say 2027?

200 Gripens would be a good cost-effective replacement for the MIGs,regardless of how many LCAs we can also build by 2020,which from stated figures is about 120+ only.

The bulk of production/assembly is to take place at HAL and I'm less than optimistic about its rate of production. Its very probable that the FGFA will be in production before the delivery of 126 aircraft is completed, making an additional order of 74 aircraft unnecessary.

Also, ordering the Gripen would be a squander of the political capital to be gained by a $10-12 billion order.

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 19 Apr 2010 17:57

shukla wrote:Update on competition..

Then, the IAF will, by the end of April, complete its evaluation of the six jets contending for its order of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) in a deal worth $10 billion. "If all goes well, we should be able to zero in on the winner within 18 months, with the first aircraft arriving about a year after that" the IAF source said.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 831485.cms

That's too soon. Let's not make hasty decisions. Let us decide by 2017. We *need* that much time.

I say again, the Armed Forces (or at least the personnel responsible for acquisitions) are equally responsible for the sorry state of affairs in our defence preparedness today.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Apr 2010 19:28

Isn't it time we start worrying about the Jaguar fleet too, because in about 10 years time the paks and the cheenes are going to be loaded with j-10s and jf-17s and no matter how much you may doubt it capabilities ,a one on one between the Jag and the J-10/jf-17 with BVR capability will have only one winner. i.e. as the paks and the Chinese replace their older aircraft with 4th gen aircraft the Jags will become completely useless unless there is special escort or until complete air dominance is achieved. The pace of war has only been increasing from weeks to days to hours now with doctrines like coldstart will leave it obsolete. Though I dont know what the IAF's is thinking (because of the continuing upgrades of the Jags) ,this I think will play a role in the MRCA choice.There are two ways I think one can look at it :-
1)Pick an air craft that has good proven ground attack capability i.e. SH, Rafale which really strengthen the strike arm but will be so expensive that it will suck out all the funds from any possible MCA/NFGA program i.e. there will be no money or even the need so it can kiss its ass goodbye. or
2)"we need a 5th gen strike fighter" , I dont think PAKFA is really meant to be a strike fighter(you may differ on this ) so that only leaves investing in the MCA/NFGA program unless we plan to buy the JSF. so buy some thing cheaper like the Grippen in lesser nos. i.e. stick to 126 double quick just to arrest the falling squad. nos.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Apr 2010 19:48

abhik wrote:Isn't it time we start worrying about the Jaguar fleet too, because in about 10 years time the paks and the cheenes are going to be loaded with j-10s and jf-17s and no matter how much you may doubt it capabilities ,a one on one between the Jag and the J-10/jf-17 with BVR capability will have only one winner. i.e. as the paks and the Chinese replace their older aircraft with 4th gen aircraft the Jags will become completely useless unless there is special escort or until complete air dominance is achieved. The pace of war has only been increasing from weeks to days to hours now with doctrines like coldstart will leave it obsolete. Though I dont know what the IAF's is thinking (because of the continuing upgrades of the Jags) ,this I think will play a role in the MRCA choice.There are two ways I think one can look at it :-
1)Pick an air craft that has good proven ground attack capability i.e. SH, Rafale which really strengthen the strike arm but will be so expensive that it will suck out all the funds from any possible MCA/NFGA program i.e. there will be no money or even the need so it can kiss its ass goodbye. or
2)"we need a 5th gen strike fighter" , I dont think PAKFA is really meant to be a strike fighter(you may differ on this ) so that only leaves investing in the MCA/NFGA program unless we plan to buy the JSF. so buy some thing cheaper like the Grippen in lesser nos. i.e. stick to 126 double quick just to arrest the falling squad. nos.

Almost all airforces have a high low mix. Jaguars are wonderful terrain hugging aircrafts. Their role was never A2A, or point defence. That way the Jaguars would have been out of the pic 2 decades back!

For the emboldened part.
Is there any connection between the funds allocated for the MMRCA and MCA?

Just a question. I am not challenging your thoughts. I stand a chance to learn something new here. Why do you think that the PAKFA cannot be a strike fighter? What are the characteristics/capabilities of a fifth generation strike platform which the PAKFA lacks?

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 19 Apr 2010 20:13

The article got it wrong, no aircraft can be delivered within one year of being ordered. The deal will be signed with-in a year and the first aircraft will arrive 18 months after that. So If ordered by April 2011, end 2012 the first aircraft can land and i know its the Super Hornet, the only one that can be delivered at such a pace. boeing promises to deliver the 18th aircraft 54 months after signing the contract which means the first squadron will be operational in India by end 2015. On time.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 19 Apr 2010 20:28

Viv S wrote: Also, ordering the Gripen would be a squander of the political capital to be gained by a $10-12 billion order.

Buddy ordering a plane doesn't give you political capital, it only happens if you have political capital to begin with, and most importantly it gives other countries leverage over you, not the other way around. All these planes can be built without India, us joining the program doesn't give us huge leverage or anything.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 19 Apr 2010 21:08

shukla wrote:Update on competition..

Then, the IAF will, by the end of April, complete its evaluation of the six jets contending for its order of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) in a deal worth $10 billion. "If all goes well, we should be able to zero in on the winner within 18 months, with the first aircraft arriving about a year after that" the IAF source said.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 831485.cms

ok so when is the CBI going to start the investigation, seriously.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Apr 2010 21:33

Carl_T wrote:
Viv S wrote: Also, ordering the Gripen would be a squander of the political capital to be gained by a $10-12 billion order.
Buddy ordering a plane doesn't give you political capital, it only happens if you have political capital to begin with, and most importantly it gives other countries leverage over you, not the other way around. All these planes can be built without India, us joining the program doesn't give us huge leverage or anything.

Capital not in terms of leverage. Awarding the contract would strengthen strategic ties with whichever country's aircraft is awarded the contract. Which big or small is a waste as far as Sweden is concerned. A political aspect to arms purchases is almost always exists. Our ties with Israel for example, centre around military acquisitions.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 19 Apr 2010 21:35

Dunno how valuable this is - but FWIW, confirming Arun's guess (thanks to poster "Secondparthotel @ keypubs):

Everything but the MiG-35, bidders MMRCA failed test flights / A Gripen-NG received a second chance to prove himself
Periscope2.ru, 06.04.2010

Pauline Temerin, Ruslan Aliyev

The Indian press, with reference to the Ministry of Defence of India that are relevant to a test flight in the tender for the purchase of 126 multi-purpose fighters for the Indian Air Force (MMRCA), reports that four out of five bidders (except for Swedish fighter aircraft Gripen, do not come to India in time) failed with the flight tests. According to rumors, in high altitudes airbase Leh (Jammu and Kashmir) in height was only the MiG-35.

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... id%3D12525

Well, we had guessed as much.

CM.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Apr 2010 21:50

^^^ Failing Leh test is this something serious or just irrelevant , Its hard to believe aircraft like Typhoon or Rafale will fail Leh test.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 19 Apr 2010 21:53

Austin wrote:^^^ Failing Leh test is this something serious or just irrelevant , Its hard to believe aircraft like Typhoon or Rafale will fail Leh test.

I guess its got to count for something otherwise why even test? Still, I think in answer to your question, I guess it'd be dependent on how badly they failed.

CM

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 Apr 2010 21:53

Bharhmananda wrote: The article got it wrong, no aircraft can be delivered within one year of being ordered. The deal will be signed with-in a year and the first aircraft will arrive 18 months after that. So If ordered by April 2011, end 2012 the first aircraft can land and i know its the Super Hornet, the only one that can be delivered at such a pace. boeing promises to deliver the 18th aircraft 54 months after signing the contract which means the first squadron will be operational in India by end 2015. On time.

there are ways to go around it. The likeliest is that the IAF will ask for some (maybe a squadron or two) fighters as a temporary "on-loan" arrangement till the actual new build IAF specific fighters start arriving. The OEM will tie-up with its parent air force and will get 18-20 of these fighters supplied to the IAF.

The fact that these "on-loan" aircraft may differ from the IAF specific fighters will not be a big issue as it will allow the IAF to train instructors and convert a good number of pilots on the basic type at least. Simulators will take care of the specifics. These senior pilots will then go on to command MRCA squadrons thereon.

This particular procedure has a precedent. The Jaguar procurement is a case in point. RAF loaned its Jags to the IAF while direct-supply Jags were still being built at Warton. the IAF received 18 Su-30K/MKs originally destined for Indonesia while the MKI was being built. In the case of the Hawk, they had instructors and a whole bunch of pilots trained in the UK till the Hawk Mk132 was ready to be delivered.

BTW, this whole "Super Hornet will win, I know" tone is getting quite tiring now. And other OEMs can also supply on time..except for one in whom I have the least bit of faith in this particular regard.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Apr 2010 22:13

Kartik wrote: And other OEMs can also supply on time..except for one in whom I have the least bit of faith in this particular regard.

Mikoyan?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Apr 2010 22:15

Cain Marko wrote:
Austin wrote:^^^ Failing Leh test is this something serious or just irrelevant , Its hard to believe aircraft like Typhoon or Rafale will fail Leh test.
I guess its got to count for something otherwise why even test? Still, I think in answer to your question, I guess it'd be dependent on how badly they failed.

CM

IIRC - from one of the earlier reports - the issue was related to the fuel system and that the IAF has suggested remedy for the same.

So, although it should count from a competitive PoV, it seems to be a very minor corrective measure (from reports - not my assessment). So, I very much doubt that it will matter (at all).