Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

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brihaspati
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Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 10 Apr 2010 16:20

There has been decades long flood of articles, and statements from Pakistani sources and origins about plans, programmes and fanstasies of liberating supposed peoples oppressed by India. Same has been the story from China although less voluminous. Part of the difficulty in gaining an impression about the Chinese projections comes from the lack of knowledge of the various Chinese dialects among Indians.

I would like to have a discussion on plans, programmes and projections on the liberation of peoples and territories oppressed by the authoritarian, and extremely brutal regimes that currently control the entities called Pakistan and People's Republic of China. Pakistan state establishemnets ahve been accused of brutally suppressing (and continuing to do so) legitimate human aspirations of the Balochs, the Sindhis, inhabitants of Baltistan in the north. There are persistent and regular violations of human rights and oppression of any gorup that is not seen to be adhering to Jihadi Islam, and who have property or women to be appropriated by Islamists. These include Shias, Ahmedias, Christians, Hindus and Sikhs.

China started out its programme of Communist Jihad on Tibetans and their Buddhist faith from the 1950's. It has continued to do so with the latest manifestations being the brutal suppression of Tibetan mass anger and demonstrations. China has also come into similar conflict over Eastern Tuekmenistan. Both areas were free and independent territories for long periods in history and were militarily and illegally occupied by Chinese Communists taking advantage of western apathy and the peculiar conditions of the Cold War. China has shown its willingness to militarily suppress even peaceful demonstartions of popular anger against its one-party rulers.

Both China and Pakistan collaborate to maintain occupation and oppression of peoples under military occupation by Pakistan in portions of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir. China has supported this illegal military occupation by Pakistan by building the Karakorum Highway on occupied territory that serves as a vital supply chain of resoucres and military hardware between the two regimes. China has similarly occupied parts of India in the east, in Arunachal Pradesh.

Both these entities are violent, expansionist, exlcusive and bent on imposing ideological hegemony of their own with a target of complete erasure and destruction of any alternative culture or societal forms. These regimes and their supporting networks have to be overthrown and completely destroyed. They are extermely cunning and ruthless and have developed extensive tie ups with the west and ME energy rich entities.

India has always been a symbol for freedom of the human spirit. Many of the peoples currently oppressed by these two dark forces were at one time sharer's of the Indian vision. Many of these territories have cultural traces and archaeological indications of a connection with Indian civilization. It is our civilizational responsiibility to liberate these areas and peoples and in the process serve the very pragmatic and realistic agenda of ensuring peace and prosperity for the Indian subcontinent as also the world to agreat extent. Together these two entities protect, nourish and enhance some of the most violent, terroristic and civilization-destroying anti-human movements history has ever known - Islamic and Maoist Jihad.

Please post on possible military campaigns, political moves, strategies and tactics to liberate areas and peoples currently occupied by these two evil setups - areas like Balochistan, Sindh, Punjab, occupied Kashmir, Eastern Turkmenistan, Tibet and Arunchal Pradesh.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby Pratyush » 10 Apr 2010 18:02

Sir,

The Idea that is being propounded by you requires a major departure from the thought process that are currently fashionable in India. Such as the the Pakis being long lost brother and a belief that the Indian state & the backwardness (Imagined in the minds of the DIE) of Indic civilization is the root cause of all the problems in the Indian Subcontinent.

Moreover, as the Human development Index of Indian population improves to bring it in line with the rest of the developed world the belief of the idea of the weakness on the Indic way of doing things will evaporate.

Once we attain this point then what you are proposing in this thread automatically becomes a possibility for India.

Now in order to achieve the objectives proposed in this thread. India must do the following at the minimum.

1) Hold the line against the barbarians who are clearly at the gates.
2) Defeat them from time to time in whichever sphere we are in engagement with them. Sport, economy, military or plain diplomacy.ie no more big brother approach where we show our generosity for less then nothing in return.
3) Continue to demonstrate its strengths of the Indic way.g the consultative approach to solving problems and more importantly its military muscle to preserve peace.

Once above is demonstrated with consistency and over a long period of time then the gravitational pull of the Indic civilization will make it possible for India to take appropriate military steps in order to achieve the goals proposed by you.


This is all I can think of at this time. Will await the wisdom of others on his thread.

Regards

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby Pranav » 10 Apr 2010 18:33

B ji, how about liberating the Indian people first? :)

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 10 Apr 2010 19:21

Pratyush ji,
the idea for the thread came to me because of several recent articles I have been reading sourced from POWI and PRC. Some of these are public domain, as those that described a Chinese military person's ambitious statements of dismembering India, or the entire map-drawing chest thumping POWI exercises in confidently declaring a Mughalistan on Indian soil. I watched the programme from the Brits on the Jamat-ud-Dawa and how the narrator comments about the likelihood of suppression of Jihad or "Kashmir" not being handed over to POWI's as sufficient to bring war on India and retaliation on the "west" for not supporting POWI.

These are all part of a merry game started by the Brits rankling from the humilialtion of having to leave the "jewel in the crown". Their creation of a protected base for Islamic Jihad to survive and get its back on non-Muslims of the subcontinent. They are still in the game.

Convincing by reason works on "reasonable" people. The thousands that march under the Jamat-ud-Dawa banner to demand "Kashmir" "back" and threaten or cheer open calls for murderous violence on India do not share that reasonableness. They will only understand physical liquidation and destruction. Same goes for the elite of PRC and the commanders of the PLA.

They have intensified their campaign of portraying India as a country and nation oppressing its peoples - something that lends support and resources to the Maoists and Kashmiri Jihadis and separatists [or the Kearalite/Mharashtrian/UP homegrown Jihadis], and give such outfits space in the world political spectrum.

When history is quoted to support "peaceful cultural" conquest of neighbours or "enemies" by India, it usually not quoted with full contextual and military situational analysis. Most of the "cultural conquest" we see followed military buildup, and strength to show capability to crush foreigners ruthlessly. That was the case for the Mauryas. That was the case for Guptas. That was the case for the Cholas.

Conquest and dismemberment of POWI and PRC is an integrated part of solving the internal Jihad of both Islamist and Maoist type - for both draw inspiration and survive from the survival of these two entities.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby Pratyush » 10 Apr 2010 22:42

brihaspati wrote:Pratyush ji,
.



brihaspati

I think that you misunderstood my original post. Or more likely I have misunderstood your reply :)

Convincing by reason works on "reasonable" people. The thousands that march under the Jamat-ud-Dawa banner to demand "Kashmir" "back" and threaten or cheer open calls for murderous violence on India do not share that reasonableness. They will only understand physical liquidation and destruction. Same goes for the elite of PRC and the commanders of the PLA.


If you see the point no 2 of my original post then you will see that I am advocating, "Defeat them from time to time in whichever sphere we are in engagement with them. Sport, economy, military or plain diplomacy.ie no more big brother approach where we show our generosity for less then nothing in return". Therefore, I am not advocating any sort of reasonableness with the Enemies of the Indian Way. Though I am hope full of the pulling and assimilative strength of the Indian way of Life.

Though it may come across as a passive and a reactive strategy of doing things. But in no way I am advocating a compromise with them. Or giving up our way of doing things.

When history is quoted to support "peaceful cultural" conquest of neighbours or "enemies" by India, it usually not quoted with full contextual and military situational analysis. Most of the "cultural conquest" we see followed military buildup, and strength to show capability to crush foreigners ruthlessly. That was the case for the Mauryas. That was the case for Guptas. That was the case for the Cholas.



Dovetails neatly with the point no 3, "Continue to demonstrate its strengths of the Indic way.g the consultative approach to solving problems and more importantly its military muscle to preserve peace." Though my emphasis on preservation of peace may come across as passive strategy. But is not a show of weakness.

The challenge with the approach that I have outlined is to convince the elite in PRC that India means business and that we should be left alone. The more that I look at it the more I am convinced that current Indian elite is completely and utterly incapable of doing the job WRT PRC. Which brings me to a the point of changing in the mindset of DIE. Once we succeed in changing the mindset of the DIE class things will move forward in the direction that we want India to move. Till then You and I are just voices in the wilderness or the Internet if you prefer :)


Conquest and dismemberment of POWI and PRC is an integrated part of solving the internal Jihad of both Islamist and Maoist type - for both draw inspiration and survive from the survival of these two entities.


Agree fully with the above portion but am concerned with the economic cost associated with any venture of this type. Moreover, the mindset of the DIE being what it is I don't think that the above will even be considered as an option.

Bringing me back to the point of changing the mindset of the DIE. If we can succeed in this endeavor then the ideas proposed by you become achievable.



JMT

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 11 Apr 2010 00:16

Pranav ji,
In India, we at least have a reasonable degree of right of the people to choose their representatives. More importantly a certain basic rule of law (may not be apparently comparable to touted standards in the west) exists, with the courts functioning more or less independently of political and military pressure. Minorities are protected to a degree that they can even hold the state ransom by building up a reputation of being able to affect the law and order situation if their sentiments get even a pin-prick in their perception. Compare this with the situation in POWI and PRC. We have a thread on "oppression of minorities" in POWI, a thread on what Balochs have to face. We have threads on what Tibetans face at the hands of PRC.

None of these two countries are anywhere close to the degree of self-determination available to Indians. In spite of propaganda, it is obvious by the very successes of entities like the ULFA or Maoists or Jihadis that Indian government does not occupy India and oppress its peoples' aspiration to the extent POGWI or GOPRC does. If such things happened under these regimes - they would only survive if they had been sponsored by the state in the first place. As in Taleban or LET in POWI. For others - it would be the fate meted out to the Jews in isolated oases towns by the founder of Islam.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby Rony » 11 Apr 2010 01:14

A timely thread ! India should be in the fore front of highlighting the oppression of people by the Pakjabis and the Hans.

Since most of us are quite aware of pakistani underbelly, let me concentrate on Hans.

With respect to China, everyone knows about the chinese occupied Tibet and Xinjiang. But there are other nationalities which are also occupied by the Hans.

Manchuria needs to be added to the list.There is no love lost between the Hans and the Manchus. During the Qing dynasty (who were Manchus), the Hans were considered as second class citizens, similar to the status of Hindus in Mughal India.Ironically it was Qing China which had tributary relations with the Lamas of Tibet and for the first time occupied Xinjiang. The Han PRC claim on both Tibet and Xinjiang rests on the Manchu occupation of those lands. Modern Chinese Nationalism in early 1900s rose on anti-Manchu platform with leaders like Sun Yat Sen openly calling for genocide of Manchus. Although officially today PRC peddles that Manchus are pacified and integrating into Han culture, that is only partially correct .

Also dont forget the Hui's. Hui's are to Hans what Bangladeshis are to Bengalis and Pakjabis are to Punjabis. They are the same people, same language, but different religion and lots of bad blood between them.There is no love lost between the Muslim Hui's and Confucian/Christian Hans. For outsiders both may look same but they are not.In Xinjiang riots that happened last year, the Hui's were attacked because of their "Han" connection, but the Hui's and Hans themselves had numerous riots between them. Throughout the mid 1800s, there are numerous revolts by the Huis against the Manchu rulers and their second class Han bureaucrats. The Hui's are mostly concentrated in Ninxia, Gansu and Qinghai . I think there are some in Xinjiang as well. These states can be turned into potential conflict zones with right kind of support.

Even within the Han community, everything is not milk and Honey.There is huge egos and occasional clashes between North and South Chinese .Although those North Han - South Han differences are not as huge as Han-Tibetan, Han-Turkic, Han-Hui differences, they still can be used to creat enough disturbances to deflect Han attention.


People who claim that India "first needs to put its house in order " needs to understand the concept of offensive defence. One is not exclusive of the other.We can simultaneously "keep our house in Order" while making sure the barbarians have the problems of their own so that they dont interfere in our pheriphery while we are "strengthening our House". BTW, this is exactly what the Hans are doing to India.Supporting terrorist states like pakistan and terrorist organizations in North east and deflecting India's attention away from Tibet and Xinjiang and East Asia.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 11 Apr 2010 01:35

Inner-outer Mongolia is a long standing dispute. Mongolia is now leaning more towards Russia. Rich in mineral resources. An Independent Uyghuristan with Expanded Mongolia and Independent Tibet provides a good land route to that mineral source and an alternatiev trade routr for the Mongolians to reach IOR.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby Rony » 11 Apr 2010 01:56

Thanks Brihaspati garu ! How did i forget Inner Mongolia :eek: .

"Inner Mongolia" came into existence when the the Manchu colonisers of China occupied Mongolia and divided it into different regions, inner mongolia being one of them. There were hardly any Hans in inner mongolia before the manchu occupation of both china and mongolia.Faced with the Russian threat in 1800s, the Manchus encouraged Hans to settle in inner mongolia. Ironically when the Soveits and the Chicoms are in bed together after second world war, the chicoms with soviet support occupied both Inner Mongolia and Manchuria.

BTW, the Hakou system which the Chicoms implemented with devastating effect in Deng's "liberalisation period" was also taken from the Manchu policy of restricting populations into their respective regions when Mongolia was divided into Outer, Inner ,Taoxi mongolia by the manchus.

The Native but minority Mongols in Inner Mongolia will be more than willing to get rid of their Han colonisers if only some one can give them a helping hand and some hope.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby jambudvipa » 11 Apr 2010 03:14

Brihaspatiji,answering your clarion call I have belted out a pamphlet on liberating Baluchistan.i will be circulating this to my friends and relations.Feel free to modify and use as you please.

Operation Liberate Baluchistan
The first question that will come to the mind of my fellow Indian patriots is: Where in the world is Baluchistan?
For starters here are a few facts:
Baluchistan is Pakistan’s largest province; some of it falls in Iran and Afghanistan as well. However the biggest chunk of the Balochi landmass falls in Pakistan. Baluchistan derives its name from the Baloch people who are its original inhabitants.
The map below shows the extent of Baluchistan (it is a bit dated but relevant as far as Pakistan is concerned); by landmass it covers nearly 44% of Pakistan’s area. However in terms of population it barely reaches 5% .

Image

Figure 1 Map of Pakistan (Courtesy of Wikipedia)
The major language spoken is Baluchi (54.8%), followed by Pashto (29.6%), Sindhi (5.6%), Sariaki (2.4%), Punjabi (2.5%) and Urdu (1.0%) .Literacy rate is around 48% of population [ii].
Baluchistan has twenty seven districts. The main city is Quetta, which is the capital of Balochistan as well.
The terrain is mainly semi desert and mountainous in the interior and by virtue of its location Baluchistan has a long coastline. The infamous Gedrosian desert in which armies from the time of Alexander perished from thirst is located on the border with Iran. The weather tends to be extremely hot in summer and extremely cold in the winters.
Balochistan is extremely rich in minerals (especially copper), natural gas and coal. But the local economy remains woefully underdeveloped, with the benefits of the regions natural wealth primarily going to Pakistan.
So it’s a region rich in resources but exploited by the Pakistanis. Big deal, this is hardly unique. So why should I still bother about a place I heard of for the first time in my life?
Good question, here are a few reasons:
Reason 1: Pakistan is in illegal occupation of Baluchistan.
As we very well know, on independence our motherland was partitioned by the perfidious British and an illegal government of occupation was set up in Punjab and surrounding regions (more popularly known as Pakistan).In 1947 all the princely states were given the option of joining India or Pakistan or remaining sovereign. Baluchistan ruled by the Khan of Kalat, Mir Ahmed Yar Khan opted for an independent Baluchistan on August 11, 1947.
In 1948 Pakistan’s armed forces invaded Baluchistan and forced the Khan to sign over Baluchistan to the Pakistanis. What followed was decades of resistance by the freedom loving Baluchis.
It is quite ironical that Pakistan keeps harping on Kashmir at each and every opportunity, but remains conspicuously silent on its land grab in Baluchistan!!!
It is our national duty to help the valiant Baluch people free their land from the clutches of the Pakistani imperialists.

Reason 2: Pakistan is carrying out merciless repression and genocide against the courageous Baluchis.
It has consistently carried out genocide against the Baluchi people and seeks to reduce them to beggary in their own land. The Pakistani army which basically runs Pakistan is dominated by Punjabi Muslims. And so are all other crucial aspects of Pakistani polity. The Baluch have been reduced to a minority status with no claim or benefit from the natural resources of their land. All the benefits accrue straight to GHQ (General Headquarters) Rawalpindi .This is plain and simple colonialism practiced by the “land of the pure”(i. e Pakistan).Not very different from the British who used India as an open pit mine, virtually denuding its resources, all the while its people died by the millions in manmade famines !!

The Baluch are a freedom loving people and have valiantly resisted the Pakistani aggression under the leadership of freedom fighters such as the late Nawab Akhtar Bugti.
This brave soul was 79 years old when he was murdered in cold blood by the Pakistani army in 2006.This is what the Pakistani army is good for, killing old people and massacring innocents. The massacre of 2 million Hindus in Bangladesh in 1971 does come to mind. When it comes up against a professional fighting force like the Indian army or even insurgents like the Taliban, its much hyped prowess on the battlefield seems to disappear!!
Many other Baluchi freedom fighters such as Nawab Nowroz Khan, Ghulam Mohammed Baloch have been murdered by Pakistan’s intelligence services.
The Pakistani army continues to commit atrocities on the Baluchis. Over 90,000 Baluchis are feared to have perished in the struggle against the Pakistani aggressors, while over 8000 are missing (presumed dead) .
Reason 3: Baluchistan’s strategic location. Baluchistan is strategically located at the crossroads of the gulf countries and central Asia. Pakistan with the help of China is developing the Gwadar port. The Chinese envisage basing a portion of their naval fleet in Gwadar. This fits in nicely with the Chinese strategy of encircling India by developing military bases in India’s neighbourhood. This port will also give Pakistan another access point to source vital necessities such as oil, in the scenario of Karachi being blockaded/ destroyed by the Indian navy. At present Pakistan has only one port of any standard and that is Karachi. If Karachi is put out of action by the Indian Navy, the entire Pakistani war machine will grind to a halt within days.
An independent Baluchistan with a friendly dispensation towards India will negate the possibility of the nefarious Chinese and Pakistani designs coming to pass.
Reason 4: A fragmented Pakistan is in India’s interest.
What’s this you say? Everybody and their uncle has the opinion that a stable Pakistan is in India’s interests. Utter rubbish I say!!
Whenever Pakistan has been stable and united it has invariably gone to war against India. Supremely deluded as it is, Pakistan’s army has used every period of stability to arm itself (most considerately provided by USA and its allies).Even today the US continues to play a double game of arming Pakistan and pressuring India to compromise in the interests of its protégé.
A Pakistan constantly looking after securing its rear will not have the strength to dream of opening an offensive against India.
We already stand accused of helping the Baluchis by the ever hallucinating Pakistanis; we might as well do it in reality and make life a bit more difficult for Pakistan.
Why has the Baluchi cause not been publicised by the international community in the same way as Kashmir? The “international community” only looks after its own interests. Kashmir and “Human Rights” are a useful stick to beat a resurgent India .With the poor Baluchis, who cares? Witness the way in which the Baluchi freedom struggle never figures in any western media outlet. And anything that will destabilise Pakistan is not in the west’s interests, who need a client state like Pakistan to ensure a foothold in Asia and access to central Asian oil. The west has anyway found dealing with army generals is always easier than dealing with a democratic heads of state!!

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby Carl_T » 11 Apr 2010 05:31

Dismemberment is possible, but there has to first be a focus on developing democratic institutions in the people who will take over after the occupied areas are liberated. Until no such structure exists, any post-invasion scenario will invariably lead to another authoritarian regime taking control.

For Balochistan, the most feasible target, there needs to be physical and political training of the future elites and rank-and file of the movement in India to ensure a creation of a democratic structure post-invasion.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby Pranav » 11 Apr 2010 08:47

brihaspati wrote:Pranav ji,
In India, we at least have a reasonable degree of right of the people to choose their representatives. More importantly a certain basic rule of law (may not be apparently comparable to touted standards in the west) exists, with the courts functioning more or less independently of political and military pressure. Minorities are protected to a degree that they can even hold the state ransom by building up a reputation of being able to affect the law and order situation if their sentiments get even a pin-prick in their perception. Compare this with the situation in POWI and PRC. We have a thread on "oppression of minorities" in POWI, a thread on what Balochs have to face. We have threads on what Tibetans face at the hands of PRC.

None of these two countries are anywhere close to the degree of self-determination available to Indians. In spite of propaganda, it is obvious by the very successes of entities like the ULFA or Maoists or Jihadis that Indian government does not occupy India and oppress its peoples' aspiration to the extent POGWI or GOPRC does. If such things happened under these regimes - they would only survive if they had been sponsored by the state in the first place. As in Taleban or LET in POWI. For others - it would be the fate meted out to the Jews in isolated oases towns by the founder of Islam.


B ji,

Whether India is a democracy remains a matter of debate as long as we use EVMs. But without getting into all that, this is what you wrote in the future strategic scenario thread:

But it is also true that the ruling dispensations if also unfit and malicious to boot, usually also collaborated with outside enemies as a means of safeguarding their own power - even against the interests of the commons. If any ruling dispensation brings us to danger in spite of repeated warnings that all their acts are making the nation vulnerable, the support must be conditional. Yes everyone should come on board, but those leadership responsible for the situation must go first and hand over power to a new dispensation from their critics.


and then, in the context of the upcoming MMS-Obama meeting:

Don't want sticking my neck out here about someone who is supposedly untouchable [in the most positive sense]. After all he belongs to the illustrious class of Oxonians who went out to rule India. But most likely there are going to be commitments about future concessions if not actual and immediate concessions. Hillary has sounded the real Obamaic line about the subcontinent - balancing out both POWI and India to satisfy the increasing pro-Sunni-Wahabi line followed by USA in favour of KSA+PAK.

Nothing much will happen on Headley, [POGWI pressure], India's role in AFG, on POWI. India will come out the loser in these negotiations in long term consequences.



So, if ruling dispensations are "unfit and malicious", and if there is doubt about their ability or willingness to protect Indian interests internationally, then, would it not be the people of India that need liberating?

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 11 Apr 2010 17:57

Pranav ji,
I still see no contradiction in what I wrote on these two threads. :) The crucial part about "unfit" is "If". So that unfitness has to be determined through a process that gets the acceptance of the majority of the people. Crucially it has to appear to have such acceptance. Which is tricky if you get the politics of behind it. Moreover, the one about the Oxonian is something that he himself proudly declared in public [thanks whatever to any speechwriter who can be made the scapegoat]. Concession about foreign policy can have long term effects on the common Indian. Agreed.

No Indian can find panegyrics to the Brits as to their supposed positive and beneficial role in India as palatable and acceptable. Those who do, should in the future be represented as not having been Indians in their culture/psyche/mentality. Not the person, but such an attitude towards the British occupation of India, should be condemned unhesitatingly as an attitude of treachery and treason to the idea of "India" if not to its current Constitution. The comparison and reference to Oxonians who went out to "rule India" is particularly arrogant and insulting to the memory of the millions who suffered under the Brits and who fought for the liberation of their homeland from occupation. Since the whole freedom struggle has been reduced to the sole credit of two individuals only - the role of the millions have been wished away into thin air, and such crass statements can be made with impugnity now. It is a shameful episode and reminder of the mentality that dominates the ruling regimes of India. But all that still does not change the basic reality of India as a system being far superior in its tolerance and treatment of various subgroups living iwthin its territory compared to entities like POWI and POGWI or PRC.

For this thread we are comparing the relative records and status of "oppression of peoples" under the "regime" between India and POWI/POGWI or PRC. I think you will agree that in terms of that relative comparison, India comes out the "saint" rather than the "sinner". :)

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 11 Apr 2010 18:10

jambudvipa ji,
excellent work. I will use it. One thing that concerns me is that thinking of tactical wider geopolitical moves, will it be a good idea to project parts of Iran to come into an independent Balochistan? Even the very formation of an independent Balochistan on the current POWI part will give jitters to Iran. We still may need to play Iran as a thorn in the side of the US plans for AFG and its inability to shake off the KSA-Sunni-Wahabi axis influence.

There can be two ways of dealing with this. One is to convince the Balochs to get an independent but smaller nation on POWI part only, and reassure Iran or bring about a tri-partite agreement between India, Balochs and Iranians about this [by which Iran endorses such a Baloch nation and allows transfer of Baloch populations from the Iranian side].

The other is to retain the full state boundaries you show, but convince the Balochs to vote for accession to India as an autonomous region or province [needs spectacular changes to the Indian Constitution]. This will assure Iranians of Indian state supervision as regards foreign affairs and things "emanating" out of the territiry into Iran.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby jambudvipa » 11 Apr 2010 20:32

Brihaspatiji,

I agree with you.i was bit hesitant to use the map which shows a not inconsiderable part falling into Iran but the wikipedia one was copyright free.
We need iran in the short term at least to counterweight the grouping of Sunni powers and the west.I will try and type up similar ones for Tibet,inner mongolia and any other freedom fighters in the land of the pure and the land of the pandas.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 13 Apr 2010 00:11

Some of the tactics now being used to "alienate" land from the Balochis and allow the Sunnis to gain a presence and install private armies in Balochistan.
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2010/02/bangkok-conference-governance-in.html
Author and activist Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur recently published an article regarding the sale of vast tracts of farmland in Balochistan province to Middle Eastern countries: “Reports indicate that the Gulf States have acquired more than 150,000 hectares of land in Balochistan near Mirani Dam to begin mechanized farming.” Mir Mohammad notes that $2 billion will be spent to hire a security force of 100,000 men to “stabilize the investment environment.”

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 14 Apr 2010 15:08

http://www.dprkstudies.org/documents/asia014.html
Separatist Movements
Of Pakistan’s five major ethnic groups, four have separatist movements that are organized or active to various degrees, including the Pashtuns, Baluchis, Sindhis, and Muhajirs.

The Pashtun and Baluchi movements are the oldest, as both of those groups opted for independence in 1947 but were forced to become a part of Pakistan. The Baluchis resisted the strongest, and took up arms against the Pakistani government. They are still concerned about preserving their ethnic identity under Punjabi domination, but there is relatively little violence at present. Pakistan will not set a precedent by allowing provinces to gain independence, and Baluchistan in particular due to its coastal access and because it is an effective buffer zone with Iran. Pashtun separatism picked up in the 1950s, and while government programs to include Pashtuns and extend economic opportunities has weakened that movement (Upreti 2001: 94-95), it is still a very potential problem to current and future administrations.

Sindhi and Muhajir separatism are linked to one another, and to a large extent fueled by each other. Sindhi separatism began in 1977 when President Bhutto, an ethnic Sindhi, was removed from office and the gains Sindhis had made under Bhutto’s rather blatant favoritism began to disappear. It was also a reaction to both Muhajir and Punjabi domination – Sindhis felt like second-class citizens in their own province. Muhajirs, on the other hand, felt threatened by Sindhis nationalism, and from the early 1980s have sought a homeland to call their own. The result in the Sindh province has been thinly veiled tensions that boil over into bouts of intense violence from time to time, making the entire southeastern region rather unstable. (Upreti 2001: 95-99) As in the case of Baluchistan, it is absurd for either the Sindhis or the Muhajirs to expect independence due to the strategic nature of the Sindh border with India.

These movements are a testament of the Pakistani governments failure, at least to this point, of creating a national identity that all can comfortably adopt. None of them currently pose a plausible threat to the central government, but they do pose general stability issues that detract from the overall ability of the government to act in a unified manner. The implications of this will be further discussed below.


Actually what the article deems disadvantage of the "separatists" in Sindhi vs Mohajirs against the "central gov" can be turned around to an advantage for India. It is crucial that neither Sindhis nor Mohajirs are individually string enough to triumph over eavh other and the central gov. This is what makes the case for Sindh also ripe for Indian attention and eventual accession.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 14 Apr 2010 22:54

Among the smaller minorities in POWI, there is a small group of Uyghurs in upper POK - who are probably now being forced to move back to Chinese hands by the POGWI. Although given ISI habits, a part of them are definitely likely to be "protected" within POWI for later use! But POGWI or ISI has one disadvantgein that they cannot promise the Uyghurs an independent nation of Uyghuristan against Chinese wishes! India can do this, and now will be the right moment to start encouraging the POWI resident Uyghurs to dream of their own little independent nation.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby ramana » 14 Apr 2010 23:26

I think what BRF does is socialize unthinkable options. So please do think of the process and ramifications of these moves.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 14 Apr 2010 23:45

If we can overcome the ethical dilemma of using or not using the smugglers and drug-traffickers crossing through the NW current borders, we should have some access to these guys in the north. Those of them out in third countries are also approachable. But here they would be also targeted by the agencies of the third country. On the otherhand, a long shot is perhaps even developing "love" with "Kashmiri" separatists, and proposing an Islamic homeland in Eastern Turkmenistan where they can all live happily. Win-win situation for all. They get landlocked too.

The Sindhi and Balochi case should be looked into seriously - with total deniability. But everything should start with a completely new covert setup. I am not sure the pre-existing ones are already not full of doubles or triples.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 15 Apr 2010 17:32

Some of the areas in Gilgit-Baltistan that India could effectively work on, providing covert support after a clear understanding for joining up eventually. It appears that India is not taking any risk of actual military or covert involvement here.
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/feature/pok-leaders-justify-indias-objection-to-chinese-projects_100260689.html
New Delhi, Oct.14 (ANI): Nationalist leaders of Gilgit Baltistan have asked India to stop lip service and take stronger action to halt Chinese projects in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. Chief of Gilgit Baltistan National Movement Manzoor Parwana Told ANI over phone: “If India is really serious then it should react more strongly and it should not just resort to lip service or statements.”

Parwana further said “India should try and halt the Chinese projects in our region.
Earlier, the Ministry of External Affairs spokesman said in a statement that China should cease all its activities in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.
[...]
Taking objection to Chinese projects in Gilgit Baltistan, the chief of the Gilgit Baltistan National Alliance WajahatHassan Khan told ANI over phone: “China has already occupied a part of Gilgit Baltistan , a little part of Hunza is under its control and Aksai Chin is also occupied.”

Since Gilgit Baltistan is a disputed area, China has no business to build projects here, Khan added.
The nationalist leaders further told ANI that there is a perception in the region that India is party to the dispute and it has every right to object to China building projects there.

Pakis swoop down on Baltistanis
Top leaders of the Gilgit-Baltistan Democratic Alliance (GBDA) have been detained by the Pakistan occupying regime," Abdul Hamid Khan, the chairperson of the Balawaristan National Front (BNF), wrote to IANS in an email. "The GBDA had fielded its candidates for the elections. However, in order to prevent them from campaigning, they have been detained and expelled to Islamabad," Khan said. "The detention of hundreds of GBDA leaders and workers exposed the fraud elections of Pakistan." The GBDA, of which the BNF is a constituent, is an alliance of the separatist political parties in the Northern Areas - officially renamed Gilgit-Baltistan after the Pakistan cabinet approved the Gilgit-Baltistan Empowerment and Self Governance Order, 2009, in August.
-by Sarwar Kashani
5 November 2009

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 17 Apr 2010 16:20

Sokolski's article is interesting and can be utilized to explore the weakness in US thinking about POWI: http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB963.pdf
The most commonly discussed demographic threat is known as “youth bulge.” This is the period typically before the demographic dividend can be realized when the huge tide of young people has not yet entered the labor market. This creates enormous pressures on the state to provide health, education, and other services. As this population becomes adolescents, the theory holds that single teenage men without the discipline of a good public, private, or military education and without the prospects of employment are more likely to engage in violence directed against the state and other groups in society, or engage in terrorism. Many have looked to the failures of the state education system in Pakistan, for instance, as a primary reason for the greater role madrassahs have played in educating young Pakistanis today. Madrassahs do not necessarily produce terrorists, but they do play a role in proselytizing an anti-modern, anti-Western world view.

There is no guarantee that Pakistan has weathered its period of youth bulge as it transitions to its dividend
period. One recent study has argued that, similar to the aftershocks of an earthquake, “echo booms” reverberate every 2 decades after periods of booming fertility which are followed by a steep decline. This would mean that the number of Pakistanis between


militant recruitment has revolved around the Indo-Pakistani conflict and has taken place out in the open, but since 9/11 it has gone underground and has tended to use anti-U.S. sentiment to motivate new cadres.73 If Pakistan is unable to sustain its economic growth, in part because of rising resource pressures, the country in 2020 could have millions or potentially tens of millions of unemployed young people who have not been properly educated to compete in the globalized economy. This will be a population that came of age during the War on Terror at a time of great antipathy toward the United States. Even if rural areas in Punjab and Sindh remain relatively quietist traditional societies as they have for decades, the increasingly populated cities and the heavily trafficked border regions will have access to networks of influence around the world. The Gulf, with the rising importance of its Sovereign Wealth Funds and growing source of remittances returning to Pakistan, is likely to have a heightened political influence. Today’s interconnected world means that vectors of prosperity can quickly become vectors of instability.


Sindhi separatism:

....a series of interventions that culminated in a bitter fight over the imposition of the Two-Unit plan. Political manipulation forced Sindh to accept the plan but “Sindhis were [left] without an adequate voice to represent their aspirations and concerns.”19

“This process was repeated under General Ziaul- Haq’s martial law regime (1977-85), but even the second Sindhi Prime Minister, Mohammed Khan Junejo (1985-88), encountered major dissidence in his home province.”20 In early 1970s, Prime Minister Z. A. Bhutto had tried to address the Sindhi grievances but he could do little, “perhaps because,” explains Wright, “he did not dare antagonize either the army or Punjabi voters on whom he relied for continuance in power.” 21 While Sindh has not declared open rebellion against the Pakistani state, tensions continue to fester even today, and resentments have accumulated that flare up frequently in the form of violent confrontation between Sindhis and Muhajirs in Karachi. Indeed Karachi, a huge city and the hub of commerce and trade in Pakistan, presents a special case of interethnic conflict. Economic factors, demographic pressures, and militant Islam have turned Karachi into one of the most unsafe cities in the world.


What Americans may try to do :

But the model that might work best for Pakistan is a hybrid model that blends regional and multiethnic federalism in an asymmetrical fashion. Hybrid federalism incorporates unitary features that strengthen the state and allow it to exercise an overarching authority within which it can bargain on behalf of the nation as a whole.
The purpose of the overarching authority must be a progressive integration of the Pakistani nation and not the survival of a particular leader or government. While the granting of provincial autonomy is essential, that alone will not suffice. The federal process also needs to remain open-ended in another respect. The empowerment of one ethnic group will create a succession of similar demands from other ethnic groups and minorities. Every new ethnic mobilization needs to be dealt with in a principled manner. This requires creating a political process that permits representation and accommodation. The dangers of an unresponsive state have been amply visible in India’s turbulent northeast, where scores of militant movements compete against ethnically based provincial governments.

There are groups that do not make territorial demands. Pakistan contains a number of smaller ethnic and religious groups that have no clearly defined territorial homeland. Several of these groups have seen their rights severely reduced during the long period of Islamist-backed military rule. Among these are the Christian and Hindu minorities, the Ahmediyas and the Shias.35 The latter have been the targets of sustained attacks for decades. Unless their status is restored, several key cities like Karachi and Hyderabad will never know real peace. The federal process therefore needs to be revisited periodically. At all times, the central state needs to be not only neutral and transparent but must scrupulously adhere to canons of fairness.


So we need to convert these non-territory seeking minorities into territory seeking ones!
Pakistan can go down this path in a step-by-step manner, dealing with each new demand as it arises. But this could invite charges of political expediency and manipulation and exacerbate conflict. It therefore has a good deal to learn from the strategy of the linguistic reorganization of the Indian states (provinces) in 1957. The states’ reorganization was enacted for the county as a whole. It was accepted despite the fact that it denied the claims of separate statehood to several ethnic minorities because the overwhelming majority of ethnic nationalities found the new federal arrangement acceptable and because the criteria upon which statehood was denied or conceded were transparent and impartially applied. The subsequent struggles in India’s northeast illustrate why it is important to keep even this federal arrangement open-ended. The offer of ethno-linguistic autonomy within the framework of a federal Pakistan can become a powerful countermagnet to Islamist nationalism in FATA and NWFP, and even more so in Balochistan, where the struggle for self-determination is mainly of the older variety. Greater regional autonomy will allow Pakistan to isolate these regions, and the benefits that flow from separating Islamic extremism from ethnic dissidence will benefit the whole country. This is because Pakistan’s future as a stable state is premised as much on accommodating grievances in Sindh, Karachi, and Punjab as it is on separating ethnic nationalism from religious extremism.


Here is the fundamental failure of understanding of US policy. For the Islamist core of the Paki Occupied Western India aka Pakistan, the fact of that occupation can only be maintained on Islamism. So the rulers of this occupied territory can never let go of their Islamism and can never separate ethnic demands from Islamist militancy.

Only where the "central authority" i sno longer "Islamic" in its vision, can this accommodation happen. USA will refuse to see this for a long long time, but this is the opportunity that India should mobilize for. Sooner or later, the "provincials" will have to realize that their best hopes lie in joining a non-Islamist Indan Union.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby Y. Kanan » 18 Apr 2010 02:23

Any talk of "liberating oppressed peoples" in either China or Pakistan is a silly pipe dream. Both countries are essentially immune from Indian interference for their own unique reasons.

Pakistan is immune because the only people in that country who've got the balls to stand up against the central govt are rabid muslims, who hate kaffirs even more than they despite the ruling Punjabi elite. This is why we've never supported any of the rebel groups there... we're afraid of arming fanatics who would just as soon as kill us. It's one thing to arm nutjobs on the other side of the world (ie: 1980's US interference in Afghanistan), but quite another to create a monster right next door. We've already got enough monsters within India itself and along all our various borders. Besides, so hated and despised is the Hindu that any hint of our involvement would severely discredit and undermine any Paki rebel group trying to fight Islamabad; we'd do more harm than good. I must grudingly admit that GOI's policy of doing nothing (something they've always excelled at anyway) is perhaps the best approach.

China is immune from outside interference primarily becuase the police state's iron-fisted control is so pervasive and omnipresent that any nascent rebel movement is nipped in the bud and crushed before it can even establish itself. It's hard to even smuggle information into and out of China, to say nothing of weapons and supplies. Besides, we're scared sh*tless of China - no Indian gov't would dare risk their ire.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 18 Apr 2010 03:34

Actually as shown in many of the reports above, there are possibilities in spite of the "Hindu"-hatred and police-states. No police state in history has proved immune to internal dissent with the right dose of external support. Yes, initial attempts in China appear to be abortive. But that is deceptive. And the Chinese authorities know that very well. All of Uighurs, Tibetans and Mongolian part of Chinese territory now - are simply ungovernable by China in the long run. The same problems that forced the British empire to fail. The eternal dilemma of all empires - how to retain control without imposing the imperialists' birth-culture. Typically empires lose out on this count. The greater the initial spectacular success the greater is the ultimate crash.

As for Paki occupied western India, there was and and still is [under various guises] a movement called "Sindhudesh". Balochs's cannot all be blanketly referred to as "Hindu-bashers".

Moreover, I have suggested "empowering" them a little and not to th extent that they can independently crush the Pakjabi ruling cliques. I would prefer a war of attrition where they all weaken each other.

Liberation is not for forming independent new Islamic Jihadates, but for accession to India as regions and provinces. They cannot survive on their own as the territories will not be self-sufficient in water and modern economic terms. If the Balochs and Sindhis do not join up with India, they have little to look forward to in terms of peaceful existence. Their land and resources - whatever is left - is gradually being portioned out to the Pakjabis. Sooner or later they will have to fight to preserve their existence. And they cannot do this alone. I just want India to bargain over this and not repeat a BD like mistake.

It is not enough to destroy the Paki occupation but necessary to ensure that they do not become pawns in a million hands against India. For this we need them to come under the common umbrella where foreign powers can be kept out of nosing in.

Moreover we need to think positively about expansion of Indian sovereignty. We need to raise the image of these two powers as occupiers and oppressors - something they do constantly about India. If nothing else, think of the psychological sputtering in rage of Pakis and Chinese jingos reading our posts above. :P

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby Carl_T » 18 Apr 2010 04:38

brihaspati wrote:Moreover we need to think positively about expansion of Indian sovereignty. We need to raise the image of these two powers as occupiers and oppressors - something they do constantly about India. If nothing else, think of the psychological sputtering in rage of Pakis and Chinese jingos reading our posts above. :P

:mrgreen:

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby Prem » 18 Apr 2010 23:08

What to do about some "indians" who claim the Land under Paki occupation was not part of India but under Indian "Influence" thus propogating the poropganda of Pakistniyat . I think the first home requisite to liberate the opressed others is to "educate" and liberate few Indian folks who relish every second of diluting India and Indic Interests In the Interest of Inceasing the Interests of Insane Incectuos Inbreeding Insecsts Inhabiting Indian soil across Wagha. We cant succceed with so many Shalyas in our camp trying to discourage Dronacharya/s.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 18 Apr 2010 23:59

Prem ji,
we ignore them. We ignore such confused Indians. What is important is that the number of non-confused Indians who begin to believe in Indias's destiny as an expanding cultural, political, military entity - increases. India is being held back by losing its dreams and imagination. The dream of running the whole world one day. Our space scientists have already indicated a future dream - to have colonies on the moon. India's future target should be to lead the whole world, impose its thoughts and cultural lineage and its hegemony - by force where necessary, by seducing where appropriate - its "God's work". :P And not stopping only ath the boundaries of the earth - but as our ISRO scientists hope - one day colonize solar system and beyond.

Dreams? Perhaps! Unrealistic - maybe! But we have to think beyond the safe and conventional, the limits and boundaries imposed by others, to define our own potential and horizon.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby svinayak » 19 Apr 2010 01:19

brihaspati wrote:Prem ji,
we ignore them. We ignore such confused Indians. What is important is that the number of non-confused Indians who begin to believe in Indias's destiny as an expanding cultural, political, military entity - increases.

I believe in this. I only work with younger Indians now and totally ignore the older Indians who cannot be changed. Younger Indians are able to see the possibility and see the opportunity. They need to see that it is possible to achieve.

India's future target should be to lead the whole world, impose its thoughts and cultural lineage and its hegemony - by force where necessary, by seducing where appropriate - its "God's work". :P And not stopping only at the boundaries of the earth - but as our ISRO scientists hope - one day colonize solar system and beyond.

This needs to be propagated.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby Prem » 19 Apr 2010 01:35

Acharya wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Prem ji,
we ignore them. We ignore such confused Indians. What is important is that the number of non-confused Indians who begin to believe in Indias's destiny as an expanding cultural, political, military entity - increases.

I believe in this. I only work with younger Indians now and totally ignore the older Indians who cannot be changed. Younger Indians are able to see the possibility and see the oppertunity. They need to see that it is possible to achieve.

India's future target should be to lead the whole world, impose its thoughts and cultural lineage and its hegemony - by force where necessary, by seducing where appropriate - its "God's work". :P And not stopping only at the boundaries of the earth - but as our ISRO scientists hope - one day colonize solar system and beyond.

This needs to be propagated.


Agree, the old khoosats have lost their rational to contribute constructivly. Young Indians must learn to dream again like their ancestors. The youthful population bulge mentioned on other golden dagha can be catalyst in realizing such dreams and take stuck India out of mud made by DIE men.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby Y. Kanan » 19 Apr 2010 02:01

brihaspati wrote:Actually as shown in many of the reports above, there are possibilities in spite of the "Hindu"-hatred and police-states. No police state in history has proved immune to internal dissent with the right dose of external support. Yes, initial attempts in China appear to be abortive. But that is deceptive. And the Chinese authorities know that very well. All of Uighurs, Tibetans and Mongolian part of Chinese territory now - are simply ungovernable by China in the long run. The same problems that forced the British empire to fail. The eternal dilemma of all empires - how to retain control without imposing the imperialists' birth-culture. Typically empires lose out on this count.


Ungovernable in the long run? Not going to be very hard maintaining control over these areas when Han chinese outnumber the locals (already happened in Xinjiang, almost the case in Tibet).

In China's case, nothing short of outright support (ie: openly sending large quantities of high-tech arms to Chinese dissidents) would have any effect. This would be tantamount to a declaration of war; no GOI would risk it. And besides, it wouldn't work anyway. China would just pour vast #'s of troops into the area and sanitize everything. So the dissidents would still end up getting crushed and we'd probably have a war with China on our hands as well.

Look what happened when the US tried to support Tibetan rebels back in the 1950's. And the Chinese ran a much less effective police state back in those days; their control is far more effective now. The Chinese have honed pacifying populations into a fine art form; few countries do it better.

I think the only way to liberate China's oppressed peoples is invade the place... but I'm guessing WWIII isn't what you had in mind when you started this thread. :)

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 19 Apr 2010 02:39

There is this myth of "Han" numbers and "invincibility". Chinese history proves otherwise. Just as in India, or the "great Roman empire", in China too, large numbers were subjugated by small determined minorities. The primary reasons are all common - when a society accummulates too much, the majority are scared of losing it through confrontations. Especially the elite. Over the last two decades, China has generated its own "fat cats" who will press the "defence" vehemently to a certain point. Then they will start vacillating.

It is a matter of who has the greater patience. Uighurs and Tibetans have geography in their favour. There is a host of porous border and frontier regions where even now it is quite difficult to enforce strict border control in favour of only "Hans". If you have any exposure to the Tibetans you may realize that "routes" of bi-directional flow exist. It is a matter of establishing channels to the Uighurs. Yes, and noting that some of them settled in POK have joined the Talebs or AQ. Which is actually a tactical advantage.

Third World War!!! Well people said that about any plans to crash the USSR, before 1989, isnt it? Seet happened without a WWIII. A lot of forces in the world want the "Hans" to crash. Including some of their closest "friends". It is a matter of convergence of interests, lets say.

By the way, if a war is unavoidable, why would I go against it - if it serves the overall long term expansion targets for India!

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby ShauryaT » 19 Apr 2010 04:55

I guess this belongs here. For the past couple of years, folks at IDSA have been tracking with the help of a small and dedicated team.

PoK News Digest

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 20 Apr 2010 02:13

In the latest issue linked above by ShauryaT ji, there is an interesting bit :
http://www.idsa.in/system/files/POKNewsDigest3-4-2010.pdf pg 15.
“Trans-LoC trade of Rs 47.4m conducted”,
Pakistan Observer
MIRPUR: Trade worth Rs 47.4 million was conducted on trans-LoC Rawalakot-Poonch route with pulses once again dominating the supply from Azad Jammu and Kashmir, official sources noted. Sources further noted 25 trucks carrying pulses in bulk besides almonds of worth Rs 34.9 million left for Poonch from Rawalakot. From Poonch, an equal number of 23 trucks reached Rawlakot and other parts of AJK carrying bananas, brown cardamom, red chilly, coconut, kernel, dry coriander and pineapple. The goods were worth Rs 12.5 million.


Note that net transfer of 34.9-12.5 =22.4 million to the POK or those in POWI land doing business through POK, from India. But obviously this money is not getting spent locally -as the numerous articles and bits of info in the same issue shows. Apparently suicide rate has increased among youth in certain regions because of poverty and unemployment. But terrorists get funded. Should that be the "lending hand"?

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby Y. Kanan » 20 Apr 2010 06:21

brihaspati wrote:There is this myth of "Han" numbers and "invincibility".


I never said the Chinese were invincible; they'd get their asses kicked in any confrontation with the US or Taiwan. They'd have a tough time even taking on India in a conventional war. But let's be honest the Tibetans\Uighers\etc are not exactly a formidable opponent. Their #'s are shrinking every year and to be honest, they just aren't fanatical enough. China's separatists are never going to amount to anything but a minor annoyance. Tibet's best chance was back in the 50's and the Uighers had their strongest momentum back in the 1990's. Both were easily crushed. If there was anytime those movements were going to defeat Beijing, it back then. The window of opportunity has long passed; China's economy is much improved (the population is content with trickle-down economics) and no major powers are willing to risk China's ire by helping separatists.

I like your optimism but there's no point in wishful thinking, at least not in the world of geopolitics.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 20 Apr 2010 16:18

Y. Kanan wrote

I never said the Chinese were invincible; they'd get their asses kicked in any confrontation with the US or Taiwan. They'd have a tough time even taking on India in a conventional war. But let's be honest the Tibetans\Uighers\etc are not exactly a formidable opponent. Their #'s are shrinking every year and to be honest, they just aren't fanatical enough. China's separatists are never going to amount to anything but a minor annoyance. Tibet's best chance was back in the 50's and the Uighers had their strongest momentum back in the 1990's. Both were easily crushed. If there was anytime those movements were going to defeat Beijing, it back then. The window of opportunity has long passed; China's economy is much improved (the population is content with trickle-down economics) and no major powers are willing to risk China's ire by helping separatists.

I like your optimism but there's no point in wishful thinking, at least not in the world of geopolitics.


All your points are valid if we look at it from the conventional sense. But Iam not being optimistic. I am actually being quite pragmatic.

First of all in national aspirations several factors have to come together to make that ide aof that nation sustainable. I can see that all the factors are present in the case of Uyghurs and Tibetans, except one - the issue of "the right dose of external support".

What are the factors : (1) sense of irreconciliable cultural/ethnic/ideological distinction from the current rashtra (2) sense and awareness if historical trauma inflicted by the current rashtra (3) sense of destiny that the group is slated fro independence and sovereignity (4) geographical peculiariuties that allows survival of pockets of resistance either due to remoteness or porous boundaries and frontiers with sympathetic powers who may facilitate "retreat" even if they do not openly oppose the "repressing" rashtra (5) claim to territory that because of geo-strategic reasons or because of overall resources would allow it to survive as an independent rashtra (6) flexibility of tactical and strategic approach that can persist over multiple generations (7) right and appropriate inputs, covert and overt, from interested and sympathetic external forces and rashtras.

Previous failures for the Uyghurs and Tibetans primarily came from lack of (7). For Tibetans it also partly came from self-restraints in stratgey due to ideology. In the case of separatists of J&K, a tremendous amount of (7) sustains their movement.

As regards Chinese economic gigantism, that itself can soon be proved to be both a myth as well as a liability. Extreme prosperity usually at the hands of a small minority have always spelt disaster - and more so in the case of China in the past. Such prosperity also makes other powers jealous and processes start of convergence of interests between even rival powers otherwise to make common long term plans for bringing the prosperous giant down.

There has been many police states before - and the communist model of a police state is usually a long term failure even if a spectacular short term success. That is a different analysis which I have made in the reds-thread once. More so because of the essential fusion of all state power into the party and affiliated military. If they also kept the population in a medieval Islamist type of society with no education and modernization - then it just might have succeeded. The Communist ideology however requires "modernization" and access to at least certain aspects of modern thought and knowledge which over the long term goes against the police state.

I repeat, that determined minorities can win over giant states. They need to hold on and win over appropriate external support. The very reason we have to dissolve the usurping Paki Ocupation government of western India to dry off the separatists in J&K, and force the Chinese to retreat from the Kunming area - to dry off the NE separatists.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 21 Apr 2010 16:42

If there is any confusion about international forces behind painting India as an oppressor, people can follow up this report and look at the website mentioned. I would expect quite a few nation's secret services and covert operational wings behind this initiative as well as the website. It can act as both a honey-trap to track the more volatile elements who can be eliminated if they show too much independence in their ideological pursuit different from the imperialists. On the other hand docile elements or more controllable and manipulable ones can be used toa dvance the territorial designs oif these imperialist powers.
http://southasiarev.wordpress.com/2010/02/14/international-campaign-against-the-war-on-people-in-india-launched-on/
International Campaign against the War on People in India–Launched

Posted by Ka Frank on February 14, 2010

This is an important new initiative that can play a crucial role in exposing and isolating the brutal Indian government, which has launched an unprecedented military offensive to seize the lands of this country’s poorest people, the adivasis or tribal peoples.

The International Campaign Against War on the People of India (ICAWPI) is being launched to work as a coordinating centre seeking international support for the resistance of the people of India against the all out military offensive of the Indian state against its own citizens.

ICAWPI is an international extension of widespread opposition and initiatives against this genocidal war to forcefully crush the heroic resistance of the tribal peoples in the heartlands of India and to hand over these lands rich in minerals and raw materials to international corporations such as Vedanta, Rio Tinto, Posco and others.

This overt war serving to facilitate the looting of the land and resources by Indian and international corporations for fabulous profits and the destruction of the livelihood of the countless numbers of the poorest of the poor in India is named as “Operation Green Hunt”. While in different regions of the country the same operation may be named differently, the Indian state shamelessly tries to hide this banditry against the people of India and utterly open servitude to the imperialism as “war against the Naxalites”– imposing a severe reign of terror and repression on progressive and democratic forces and individuals everywhere across the country.

Countless intellectuals, authors, film makers, academics, and other professionals such as lawyers and doctors who abhor the Indian state’s total lies and open disregard for civil and human rights have joined mass gatherings and rallies and various forums in India in order to raise their own voices and join forces to oppose the State and to defend the just cause of the oppressed tribal people in India.

In the course of this gathering movement countless people have been arrested and imprisoned. Untold suffering and restrictions have been imposed on the people.

Yet, international public opinion is kept grossly in the dark about these issues while the mainstream media continue to follow and repeat the Indian State’s claims that “India is the largest democracy in the world” and that the Maoists, as the biggest security threat to this “democracy” must wiped out at all costs. Thus they justify their silence and bless the Indian State in perpetrating these crimes in the name of a “war on terror”.

Already more than one hundred tribal people have been killed in Chhattisgarh, Orissa, West Bengal and Jharkhand as part of this brutal war, “Operation Green Hunt”. Several thousand tribal people have been tortured, maimed, and pushed out of their villages, women raped, houses burnt and villages burnt to ashes. Though the Government of India unofficially imposed a censor on media to publish reports from the killing fields, democratic journalists, and civil rights bodies have been making efforts to bring the facts of this war out for the public.

ICAWPI aims to reach out to all democratic and freedom loving people across the world concerned about the plight of the people in India to unite and take initiative to break this silence internationally and to rally much needed support and solidarity to the just struggles of the people of India.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 22 Apr 2010 16:04

I had written in another thread about the sequence of Mao's twists and turns and establishing independent foriegn policy stake vis-a-vis USA - that have had consequence for the Indian subcintinenet. Here is another article that talks of the effect of this twists and turns on the Tibetan resistance movement.

What should be noted is that in no way is the PLA the invincible force it is made out to be - both by its friends and by its "enemies" - such as people worried about Chinese might, within India. It is possible and will be feasible to destroy the PLA presence in Tibet, if the moves and cards are played correctly.

We should also realize that the destruction of parts of the PLA or serious military reversalas faced by the PLA is crucial in unravelling the current PRC regime and establishing a more humane and democratic one that is also less jingoistic towards India. Without such a reversal, the common Chinese will not get to see that what they have now in the form of the Communists and the PLA - is nothing different from the age-old Chinese emperor+eunuch+mandarin+army sytem of exploitation. Todays CPC+PLA is very much another copy of the so-called "Nationalists" under Chiang - corrupt, militarist, dynastic. But this can only be made clear to the Chinese public once PLA is defeated - most conveniently by its own historical and central doctrine of guerrilla, warfare around fluid and mobile base areas.
http://www.friendsoftibet.org/databank/usdefence/usd7.html
The CIA Circus: Tibet's Forgotten Army
(by R Sengupta | Outlook | February 15, 1999)
CIA in Tibet

How the CIA sponsored and betrayed Tibetans in a war the world never knew about



The CIA cooked up a fresh operation in Mustang, a remote corner of Nepal that juts into Tibet. Nearly two thousand Tibetans gathered here to continue their fight for freedom. A year later, the CIA made its first arms drop in Mustang. Organised on the lines of a modern army, the guerrillas were led by Bapa Yeshe, a former monk.

'As soon as we received the aid, the Americans started scolding us like children. They said that we had to go into Tibet immediately. Sometimes I wished they hadn't sent us the arms at all,' says Yeshe. The Mustang guerrillas conducted cross-border raids into Tibet. The CIA made two more arms drops to the Mustang force, the last in May 1965. Then, in early 1969, the agency abruptly cut off all support. The CIA explained that one of the main conditions the Chinese had set for establishing diplomatic relations with the US was to stop all connections and all assistance to the Tibetans. Says Roger McCarthy, an ex-CIA man, 'It still smarts that we pulled out in the manner we did.'

Thinley Paljor, a surviving resistance fighter, was among the thousands shattered by this volte-face. 'We felt deceived, we felt our usefulness to the CIA is finished. They were only thinking short-term for their own personal gain, not for the long-term interests of the Tibetan people.' In 1974, armtwisted by the Chinese, the Nepalese government sent troops to Mustang to demand the surrender of the guerrillas. Fearing a bloody confrontation, the Dalai Lama sent the resistance fighters a taped message, asking them to surrender. They did so, reluctantly. Some committed suicide soon afterwards.

Today, the survivors of the Mustang resistance force live in two refugee settlements in Nepal, where they eke out a living spinning wool and weaving carpets. 'The film is for the younger Tibetans, who are unaware of the resistance, as well as for Americans, who don't know how their own government used and betrayed the resistance,' says Tenzing. 'Though it was a story begging to be told, funding it was almost impossible,' adds Ritu.

The couple have been making films since 1983, on subjects from reincarnation to the expat Sikh community in California and Tenzing's first trip to Tibet. A full-length Tibetan feature film is in the pipeline, but The Shadow Circus is likely to be remembered for its startling revelations.

The most poignant summary comes from Tenzing's father: 'We were able to utilise [the American] help for our own ends. We couldn't just go and fight the Chinese with empty hands. I don't see our armed struggle as something that was helpful only at a certain point in our history, something that is finished. We should look at it as one chapter in our continuing struggle for freedom, one that still has some meaning.'

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby brihaspati » 23 Apr 2010 22:13

When the reports about dedicated and ideologically motivated Communist soldiers of PLA raping Tibetan women and the nuns came out in installments from the time of firts occupation of Tibet - it was typically dismissed as having been politically motivated propaganda by anti-Communists.

Here is an interesting commentary, and at least one genuine Chinese born - now reisdent outside colleague of mine - says that the report in the blog is genuine. True or not, it is an interesting item to post for all pro-CPC-PLA-Pak-lurkers : something called "temporary rape", if that can be practised on Chinese themselves what prevents it from being oractised in remote, Mao-forsaken barren and cold plateau of Tibet?

http://en.secretchina.com/realchina/3560.html
Communist verdict: temporary rape
23/11/2009 11:43:00 By Xia Yu /Secret China Staff
Font size: Decrease font Enlarge font
image (screenshot)

In June this year, two police assistants (‘Xie-jing’ in Chinese) from Zhejiang Nanxun raped a woman while she was drunk and unconsciousness.

On 19th Oct, a Xunnan court judge gave the verdict of “temporary occasional offence”and seeing they willingly confessed, gave a lighter sentence of 3 years imprisonment.

Chinese people understood this in plain words as “temporary rape”and a ‘spur of the moment offence’. The words “Ling-shi-xing-qiangjian”, or ‘temporary rape’ spread wildly among Chinese bloggers. In Chinese law, group rape offenders are sentenced to at least 10 years in jail.

The new phrase, "temporary rape” has been added into the popular phrase list, such as “Fuwuocheng” (push ups); “Lou-Cui-cui (building likes to fall); “Bei-zisha” ('be suicided' …a new words by Chinese bloggers --- many people detained by police died in custody and are announced by police as suicides) etc.
More 'temporary offences'

Chinese bloggers have proposed more sayings for future cases:

Some considered there should be ‘temporary corruption’, ‘temporary murder’, ‘temporary explanation’, or a ‘temporary verdict’… to help keep the ‘harmony of the society that Hu Jingtao proposes.

One blogger said: “temporary occasional offence”does not exist in legal language; it is extrapolated by the defender. So it is a ‘temporary verdict’.

Another blogger reminds us that the two offenders are ‘assistant policemen, so they are not formal policemen. They are ‘temporary police’. They are only temporarily acting as policemen, and at present there are hundreds of thousands of ‘police assistants in every corner of China, helping police evict people from their houses, beating people who want to appeal, detaining people who practice religious faith, etc. There are many ‘temporary murder cases’ in China committed by these ‘temporary police’ and those victims are worse off than the woman who was raped.

One blogger revealed that in Number One Hospital at Beijing Medical University, many students practice as ‘temporary doctors’. In January 2006, a professor Xiong Zhuo died after a small orthopedic operation by 3 ‘temporary doctors’ who were students at that time. Furthermore, the relatives of this unfortunate professor have found many ‘temporarily altered medical records” for the professor.

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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby naren » 24 Apr 2010 09:26

This is from 2008. I dont know if it has been posted before. Very touching documentary.

Tibetan Refugee










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Re: Liberation of oppressed peoples ruled by China and Pakistan

Postby naren » 24 Apr 2010 10:07

International Campaign against the War on People in India–Launched

Posted by Ka Frank on February 14, 2010


Brihaspati ji,

We need more such gems.

We cannot see outside what we are not inside. The universe is to us what the huge engine is to the miniature engine; and indication of any error in the tiny engine leads us to imagine trouble in the huge one. - Swami Vivekananda


Whenever you see outlandish articles, you can use it to read whats going on in their subconscious mind. When you find a consistent pattern of many such individuals, then that is the collective (national) psyche.

Let me illustrate:

International Campaign against the War on People in India–Launched

Posted by Ka Frank on February 14, 2010

This is an important new initiative that can play a crucial role in exposing and isolating the brutal Indian government, which has launched an unprecedented military offensive to seize the lands of this country’s poorest people, the adivasis or tribal peoples. {like whats happening in Xinjiang, Tibet and Inner Mongolia}

The International Campaign Against War on the People of India (ICAWPI) is being launched to work as a coordinating centre seeking international support for the resistance of the people of India against the all out military offensive of the Indian state against its own citizens. {ref Tiananmen sq massacre}

ICAWPI is an international extension of widespread opposition and initiatives against this genocidal war to forcefully crush the heroic resistance of the tribal peoples in the heartlands of India and to hand over these lands rich in minerals and raw materials to international corporations {PRC banned "Avatar", wonder why ? Possibly this explains CPC selling out to corporates like Walmart} such as Vedanta, Rio Tinto, Posco and others.

This overt war serving to facilitate the looting of the land and resources by Indian and international corporations for fabulous profits and the destruction of the livelihood of the countless numbers of the poorest of the poor in India is named as “Operation Green Hunt”. {"communism" in China} While in different regions of the country the same operation may be named differently, the Indian state shamelessly tries to hide this banditry against the people of India and utterly open servitude to the imperialism as “war against the Naxalites”– imposing a severe reign of terror and repression on progressive and democratic forces and individuals everywhere across the country.{Tiananmen again}

Countless intellectuals, authors, film makers, academics, and other professionals such as lawyers and doctors who abhor the Indian state’s total lies and open disregard for civil and human rights have joined mass gatherings and rallies and various forums in India in order to raise their own voices and join forces to oppose the State and to defend the just cause of the oppressed tribal people in India.{Tiananmen, strike 3 :lol: }

In the course of this gathering movement countless people have been arrested and imprisoned. Untold suffering and restrictions have been imposed on the people.{ref: Xinjiang, Tibet, Tiananmen}

Yet, international public opinion is kept grossly in the dark about these issues while the mainstream media continue to follow and repeat the Indian State’s claims {ref: Xinhua, Yellow times} that “India is the largest democracy in the world” and that the Maoists, as the biggest security threat to this “democracy” must wiped out at all costs. Thus they justify their silence and bless the Indian State in perpetrating these crimes in the name of a “war on terror”.

Already more than one hundred tribal people have been killed in Chhattisgarh, Orissa, West Bengal and Jharkhand as part of this brutal war, “Operation Green Hunt”. Several thousand tribal people have been tortured, maimed, and pushed out of their villages, women raped, houses burnt and villages burnt to ashes. Though the Government of India unofficially imposed a censor on media to publish reports from the killing fields, democratic journalists, and civil rights bodies have been making efforts to bring the facts of this war out for the public.{Ah, the good ol' Cultural Revolution}


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