Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 21 Apr 2010 17:49

the OHP as it will be given to TSPN will be only slightly better than a glorified OPV or ASW corvette, if you are considering it only as a system. The key question here is whether the Block-2 harpoons will be given to them or not, and if not whether they will be allowed to be fitted with chini maal like silkworms or barbur

However the OHP coupled with the MRTP-33 can do what IN did to Karachi.

A kind request to fellow PN watchers, has anybody seen the MRTPs weaponized? Till now the weapons fit on it is mere speculation (Either harpoon block-2 or silk worm or barbur). However the photos till date only show an unweaponized MRTP.

^ Kittoo, the OHPs are bakshish from unkil

Commissioned in 1979, the frigate would be handed over after a refurbishment that includes anti-submarine capability that has been paid for with the foreign military aid provided by the United States to friendly countries.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 21 Apr 2010 18:01

K Mehta wrote: ^ Kittoo, the OHPs are bakshish from unkil
Commissioned in 1979, the frigate would be handed over after a refurbishment that includes anti-submarine capability that has been paid for with the foreign military aid provided by the United States to friendly countries.

So...that means I have to change my current order of most hated countries from

Pak
China
US

to

Pak
US=China?

I hate US so much right now.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 21 Apr 2010 18:17

^perhaps you need to go through the complete list of FMS funded by aid to TSP by US and understand the context in which they are used. As also the kind of weapons given by them through sales funded by Pakistan.
500 AMRAAMs
P3Cs with Hawkeye-2000 suit
SP arty
Harris radios
WLRs which caused significant damage to us in Kargil!
NVGs and HHTIs
I think even their Air defense network was set up by US aid, using same contract with Oerlikon that was used in getting AD guns for Afg.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 21 Apr 2010 18:24

Why does ombaba loves pakis so much? Think

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Apr 2010 18:30

K Mehta wrote:^perhaps you need to go through the complete list of FMS funded by aid to TSP by US

Here is the list:

250 Armour piercing TOW 2A Anti-tank missiles, six AN-TPS77 surveillance radar, 5600 military radio sets, 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder missiles, 36 F-16 Block 52s, mid-life upgrade to 34 existing F-16 A/Bs to C/D block 50/52, 8 P-3C maritime reconnaissance aircraft, mid-life upgrade to existing P-3 fleet, 26 Bell 412 helicopters, 39 T-37 military trainer jets, 12 Shadow drones, 150 submarine/surface/air launched Harpoon Block II missiles, six Phalanx Close In Weapon Systems (CIWS) for the Navy, five refurbished SH-2I Super Seasprite maritime helicopters and transfer of 8 Perry-class guided missile Frigates upgraded with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capability. The US is also to provide Pakistan with three additional P-3 aircraft that will be configured with the E-2C HAWKEYE airborne early warning electronics suite. Since the start of Afghan operations in c. 2002, the US had supplied other arms like 115 155mm Self-propelled M109A5 howitzers, 20 AH-1 Cobra Attack helicopters, upgrades to existing older versions of AH-1 Cobras, 6 C-130Hs, five fast patrol boats, 450 vehicles for Frontier Corps, hundreds of NVGs, thousands of protective vests, Harris high frequency communication sets, and undisclosed special weapons.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 21 Apr 2010 18:39

SSridhar wrote:
K Mehta wrote:^perhaps you need to go through the complete list of FMS funded by aid to TSP by US
Here is the list:

250 Armour piercing TOW 2A Anti-tank missiles, six AN-TPS77 surveillance radar, 5600 military radio sets, 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder missiles, 36 F-16 Block 52s, mid-life upgrade to 34 existing F-16 A/Bs to C/D block 50/52, 8 P-3C maritime reconnaissance aircraft, mid-life upgrade to existing P-3 fleet, 26 Bell 412 helicopters, 39 T-37 military trainer jets, 12 Shadow drones, 150 submarine/surface/air launched Harpoon Block II missiles, six Phalanx Close In Weapon Systems (CIWS) for the Navy, five refurbished SH-2I Super Seasprite maritime helicopters and transfer of 8 Perry-class guided missile Frigates upgraded with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capability. The US is also to provide Pakistan with three additional P-3 aircraft that will be configured with the E-2C HAWKEYE airborne early warning electronics suite. Since the start of Afghan operations in c. 2002, the US had supplied other arms like 115 155mm Self-propelled M109A5 howitzers, 20 AH-1 Cobra Attack helicopters, upgrades to existing older versions of AH-1 Cobras, 6 C-130Hs, five fast patrol boats, 450 vehicles for Frontier Corps, hundreds of NVGs, thousands of protective vests, Harris high frequency communication sets, and undisclosed special weapons.

I hardly knew about half of them!
So angry and sad!

arnabh · Post by **arnabh** » 21 Apr 2010 20:29

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r3772.html

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Apr 2010 20:57

Pakistan Azam-e-Nau military exercises.
They are probably using the Bahawalpur PAFB for this. The area is closest to the IB by about 60 Km.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Apr 2010 21:01

The US is also to provide Pakistan with three additional P-3 aircraft that will be configured with the E-2C HAWKEYE airborne early warning electronics suite.

is this the model used by US customs to detect low flying drug planes coming in from central america? probably a bit austere on
the controller front but nothing that cannot be fixed with more
donated funds.

http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircraft/ ... p3aew.html

wiki:
In December 2006, the Pakistan Navy requested three excess P-3 Orion aircraft equipped with Hawkeye 2000 AEW systems, the overall cost of the program is $855mn.

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 21 Apr 2010 21:23

ram_bharat wrote:The Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate USS McInerney was commissioned in 1979. Is a 31 yr old frigate really good enough to put up a fight against the Delhi class or the shivaliks or the Talwar class???

Actually over-rated our rajput class ships will level them easily. any of our ships or subs armed with brahmos or Supersonic Club-S/N will pulverise any porki ship from 300km away, the porkis wont see both these missiles coming. matter of fact our ships would pulverise almost all ships in the world. I think adding the the new gen Nirbhay to all of our frigate and ships using the same universal vertical launcher and you can extend their land attack abilities. But for anti ship capabilities, our current ships have no parallel. The harpoon can easily be intercepted by the Barak. We need to quickly integrate new LR-SAM on our ships as well with atleast a range of 120km+. We should also begin work on longer ranged naval sam, with ranges over 300km, and then we can have very secure ships.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Apr 2010 23:09

That is an additional platform for the pakistanis and if they put on either Harpoons or the Chinese C-602s on them, these can be troublesome for the IN as these additional platform will now have to be monitored and factored in.

Overall it does deteriorate INs and India's security.

I am sure the US will not take too kindly to some country arming the cubans just as it did not take too kindly to the Soviets placing N-tipped SSMs there in the 60s. The US knows fully the capabilities of the IN and the Pakistanis. They know that IN will easily sink these platforms in the event of all out war.

BUT

Should even one Indian lose his or her life due to these platforms, that would happen because the US armed pakistan with these weapon systems. The US has issued a statement to the effect that it will try and ensure that military hardware that it issues to pakistan as aid is not used against India. Fat chance of that happening.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 22 Apr 2010 00:25

kittoo wrote:

I hardly knew about half of them!
So angry and sad!

Add to that:
*8 aerostat radars
*special training to SSG and paki military
*Additional 18 F-16blk52
*Scan eagle UAVs ~ 12
*PGMs like excalibur

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 22 Apr 2010 01:12

excalibur?? the porkis dont have the new howitzers that allow them to fire those rounds. they aren't compatible with the m109 a-5 howitzer that pak operates.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Apr 2010 01:29

The americans gave them copperheads in the 80s, when India did not have a comparable thing. Those copperheads are probably not functional now, but they still would have them in their inventory.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Apr 2010 18:04

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 010_pg7_27

Pakistan to upgrade, strengthen naval fleet

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has adopted a comprehensive strategy to increase, upgrade and strengthen its naval fleet in order to effectively face challenges of terrorism, piracy on the high seas and incidents of illegal activities in the sea, according to a press release issued from Malaysia. According to the press release, Pakistan Naval Staff Chief Admiral Noman Bashir made these comments, while talking to reporters on the second day of Defence Services Asia (DSA) 2010 exhibition, held in Kuala Lumpur, from 19th to 21st April. Bashir who is heading the Pakistan delegation to the DSA-2010 said as part of a comprehensive strategy, the Pakistan Navy is in the process of acquiring new ships, increasing its sea surveillance capability, improving and upgrading its submarine operations and strengthening its coastal patrolling capability. Elaborating, he said navy had already acquired two new F-22 frigates from China, the third vessel is to be commissioned in two to three months time, and a fourth one is being built in collaboration with Chinese ship builders at the Karachi shipyard. Bashir said the Pakistan Navy was also re-enforcing naval aviation by acquiring long-range maritime patrol aircrafts. Two US-built aircraft had already been acquired, whereas, two more are scheduled to arrive later. staff report

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 23 Apr 2010 18:55

F-22 pns zulfiquar

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 23 Apr 2010 20:01

Leaving aside discussions as to whether the F22s and OHP class ships are the best in the IOR, these ships are a quantum jump for Pakistan from the rust buckets they have been operating so far.

8 OHPs are slated to be delivered to Pakistan (for free), their Agosta Sub program is coming along well, they are in the market for a second line of Subs and the F22ps from China. They have also expressed interest in Milgem class corvette from Turkey. Along with the air based assets it is quite a quantum buildup. India might find it harder to repeat Karachi of '71.

Someone asked here if OHPs are really worth it (30 year old, armament removed ityadi). Remember that Turkey operates OHPs and are working on a significant upgrade of these ships.

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Apr 2010 20:05

^ Yep and Chipanda can pitch in with integration of Babur sometime in near future.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 23 Apr 2010 20:39

A single Akula SSN will clear the whole Pak surface fleet despite a few old OHPs and some new F-22Ps.

See there are numerical increments that can be done of certain performs albeit with better technology and then there are game changers that can be brought in...

The IN is bringing in game changers in terms of nuke subs and medium to large sized ACs with better aircraft then what even most of the PAF can boast of.

and let's see how quickly they get "eight" OHPs. the figure eight could just end up being a Paki wet dream given the "consistency" of their great yamriki allies.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 23 Apr 2010 20:51

Once Air launched Brahmos becomes operational, along with force multiplier like P-8i, every surface combatants life is at the mercy of Indians in the Indian Ocean arc.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 23 Apr 2010 20:55

true to an extent.

but we need to keep building SSNs ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2010 21:02

yeah I would be worried about surface combatants only if PRC gifts them some 051C but since the PLAN only has a couple so
far its not gonna happen anytime soon.

its the 2nd line of subs and further Agosta's we should keep an eye on. we need more P28 type small but deadly sub hunting
ships and replacement for the aeging sea kings with EC/SH/NH whatever fits the budget and RFP - asap.

a couple of blackshark torpedoes costing may $2mil can sink a DDG costing $400 mil quite easily.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 23 Apr 2010 21:11

^^^ true sir,
thats why I am angry and sad.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 23 Apr 2010 21:41

D Roy wrote:A single Akula SSN will clear the whole Pak surface fleet despite a few old OHPs and some new F-22Ps.

Please elaborate how will that happen from a single nuke submarine,
how long do you expect war will continue in IOR ,(ie amrikis and chinks dont turn their sails here)

added later

FAS:The Perry class FFG forms a capable undersea warfare [USW] platform with the LAMPS-III (now HARBIN)helicopter on board. The Mk 13 Mod 4 missile launcher provides secondary anti-air capability. Ships of this class are often referred to as "FFG-7" (pronounced FIG-7) after the lead ship, U.S.S. Oliver Hazard Perry (FFG-7).

Frigates fulfill a Protection of Shipping (POS) mission as Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) combatants for amphibious expeditionary forces, underway replenishment groups and merchant convoys. PERRY-class frigates are primarily Undersea Warfare ships intended to provide open-ocean escort of amphibious ships and convoys in low to moderate threat environments

unkil is providing these ships to pn,so as to prevent 1971 kind of situation,. but these were designed to hunt soviet subs,; fitted with modern ASW /electronics weapons they will be able to defend karachi,gwadar,

will serve the purpose in number games. unkil wont cut its ASW weapons/sensors claiming them as part of self protection system..

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 23 Apr 2010 22:14

K Mehta wrote:^perhaps you need to go through the complete list of FMS funded by aid to TSP by US and understand the context in which they are used. As also the kind of weapons given by them through sales funded by Pakistan.
500 AMRAAMs
P3Cs with Hawkeye-2000 suit
SP arty
Harris radios
WLRs which caused significant damage to us in Kargil!
NVGs and HHTIs
I think even their Air defense network was set up by US aid, using same contract with Oerlikon that was used in getting AD guns for Afg.

Yes I have gone thru the list

They are all meant for anti terrorist operations is FATA, Afghanistan etc.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 23 Apr 2010 22:20

SSridhar wrote:
K Mehta wrote:^perhaps you need to go through the complete list of FMS funded by aid to TSP by US
Here is the list:

250 Armour piercing TOW 2A Anti-tank missiles, six AN-TPS77 surveillance radar, 5600 military radio sets, 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder missiles, 36 F-16 Block 52s, mid-life upgrade to 34 existing F-16 A/Bs to C/D block 50/52, 8 P-3C maritime reconnaissance aircraft, mid-life upgrade to existing P-3 fleet, 26 Bell 412 helicopters, 39 T-37 military trainer jets, 12 Shadow drones, 150 submarine/surface/air launched Harpoon Block II missiles, six Phalanx Close In Weapon Systems (CIWS) for the Navy, five refurbished SH-2I Super Seasprite maritime helicopters and transfer of 8 Perry-class guided missile Frigates upgraded with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capability. The US is also to provide Pakistan with three additional P-3 aircraft that will be configured with the E-2C HAWKEYE airborne early warning electronics suite. Since the start of Afghan operations in c. 2002, the US had supplied other arms like 115 155mm Self-propelled M109A5 howitzers, 20 AH-1 Cobra Attack helicopters, upgrades to existing older versions of AH-1 Cobras, 6 C-130Hs, five fast patrol boats, 450 vehicles for Frontier Corps, hundreds of NVGs, thousands of protective vests, Harris high frequency communication sets, and undisclosed special weapons.

YES BHAI YES

I have gone thru the list

Yes But Why Are You repeating

All these systems especially

250 Armour piercing TOW 2A Anti-tank missiles,
500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder missiles,
8 P-3C maritime reconnaissance aircraft + mid-life upgrade to existing P-3 fleet
150 submarine/surface/air launched Harpoon Block II missiles,
6 Phalanx Close In Weapon Systems (CIWS) for the Navy,
5 refurbished SH-2I Super Seasprite maritime helicopters
8 Perry-class guided missile Frigates upgraded with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capability.
3 additional P-3 aircraft configured with the E-2C HAWKEYE airborne early warning electronics suite.

THEY ARE ALL MEANT FOR
ANTI TERRORIST,
ANTI TALIBAN,
ANTI AL-QAEEDA
OPERATIONS IN FATA and AFGHANISTAN.

Now don't make me repeat it again and again

K

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 23 Apr 2010 22:23

few things miising from the list are
1.predators
2.f22
3.spy satellite
4.nuke submarine
5.aircraft carrier
6.icbm

give them to pakistan,and it will go complete mad ,
hence the reason why it is on the verge of madness is because of the weapons and baksheesh it has already got ,
isnt it plain logic?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 24 Apr 2010 13:17

Samay wrote:few things miising from the list are
1.predators
2.f22
3.spy satellite
4.nuke submarine
5.aircraft carrier
6.icbm

sunilpatel · Post by **sunilpatel** » 24 Apr 2010 14:08

Kanson wrote:Once Air launched Brahmos becomes operational, along with force multiplier like P-8i, every surface combatants life is at the mercy of Indians in the Indian Ocean arc.

a small query - what will be attack path of Brahmos?? mean...will it heat from top or from side??
Cause if from Side, then believe me phlanx...which pakis got can be tough for even brahmos....mean it wont be that easy...

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Apr 2010 15:06

A query for the enlightened ones , in case of an Indo-pak showdown in the seas, does the IN have the deterrence capability against the USN?

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 24 Apr 2010 15:16

abhik wrote:A query for the enlightened ones , in case of an Indo-pak showdown in the seas, does the IN have the deterrence capability against the USN?

im not a enlightened one
the us is not going to interfere in military sphere it will put diplomatic pressure

arun · Post by **arun** » 24 Apr 2010 15:51

shravan wrote:Afghanistan 'foils Kabul bomb plot'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_yP9xHjgM0

Afghanistan's police force has said that a Pakistani army officer is among the men arrested after it broke up a group planning to carry out suicide attacks in Kabul.

Security has been stepped up in the capital, despite the fact that alleged appears to have been foiled.

"Just a couple of days ago the police arrested 16 people. Nine of them were actually suicide bombers, all trained outside of Afghanistan," Mohammad Hanif Atmar, the Afghan interior minister, told Al Jazeera.

Asked whether he saw evidence of the involvement of Pakistan or parts of the Pakistani security forces in the plots, Atmar said: "The evidence speaks for itself. We are investigating into this matter and we will be soon talking to our Pakistani colleagues.

"And then basically [we will] show this evidence to them and say is this happening based on a policy or is it just a couple of rouge people doing this."

X Posted. Once again the Islamic Jihadi terrorist supporting behaviour that is de rigueur for the Army of The Islamic Republic of Pakistan on display.

More than likely that the Pakistani Soldier arrested in Afghanistan for attempting to commit the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan has been brainwashed into living out the “Jihad fi Sabilillah” or translated “Jihad in the path of Allah” part of the motto of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

The citizens of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan seem to enjoy blowing themselves up even outside their home country

.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Apr 2010 15:54

Pakistan gets its second AEW&CS plane from Sweden

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 25 Apr 2010 16:38

There were some reports that China will sell 4-kj-2000 awacs to pakistan, what is the progress?
saab-erieye is a mid course solution adopted till pakis get kj-2000( reverse engineered phalcon ), is KJ-2000 ready?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Apr 2010 16:46

where did you get the idea that the KJ-2000 is a reverse engineered phalcon ?

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 25 Apr 2010 16:58

ya I nearly fainted when he termed Chinese AWAC as revrese engineered PHALCON.. Chill Went down my spine that chinese can even reverse engineer technology by seeing IAF PHALOCN' s wallparers or folowing BR

. because as per i know no body else is going to give them any better info let alone access to PHALCON

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 25 Apr 2010 16:59

I was speculative sir,
there were rumors that Israelis passed on designs to chinese before unkil stepped in between, those were the days when the chinese bought a lot from israelis,.
After that the chinese AWACS programme showed some signs of development ,later in the form of KJ-2000(sorry I compared it with the holy phalcon)
KJ-2000 has to be a reverse engineered maal

,be it from israel or russia
btw

In 1992, China and Israel made a primitive agreement to co-develop an airborne Early Warning system for PLA Air Force. After 4 years, both sides signed a official contract, which defined a cooperative AWACS design basing on IL-76 platform. Israel provided a modified Phalcon system mounting antennas either on the aircraft fuselage and nose dome. But we thought that this configure could only provide 260°coverage. Then Chinese side provided another plan to install an expanded over-fuselage stationary radar dome. This is the largest radar dome in the world. For this, China built the largest Autoclave in Asia for producing composite material radar dome.

http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/?p=4823

http://www.chinasecurityblog.com/2009/1 ... gspot-com/

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/spe ... kj2000.asp

In May 1997, China, Israel, and Russia reached an agreement to supply one such AWACS aircraft under the designation A-50I for $250 million, with the option of three more for a total cost of $1 billion. In October 1999, Russia delivered the first A-50 aircraft to Israel for the installation of the Phalcon AEW radar system.

By May 2000, Israel had nearly completed the system installation. However, the Phalcon deal became an increasingly controversial issue between the United States and Israel. In 2000, the Clinton Administration voiced stronger objections to the sale and urged Israel to cancel the sale of the Phalcon, saying it is a system comparable to the U.S. AWACS and could collect intelligence and guide aircraft from 250 miles away. After some intensive talks, the Israeli government finally cancelled the deal with China in July 2000.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 25 Apr 2010 17:32

parshuram wrote:ya I nearly fainted when he termed Chinese AWAC as revrese engineered PHALCON.. Chill Went down my spine that chinese can even reverse engineer technology by seeing IAF PHALOCN' s wallparers or folowing BR . because as per i know no body else is going to give them any better info let alone access to PHALCON

Parsuram ji ,the chinese were in foray to get these birds and that too in the same configuration we later figured we should have .
KJ-2000's was first unveiled in 2003 ,they have the technology and are leading .
If its not at par with the Phalcon ,there wont be too much gap in range/tracking ability

The question is when pakis will get it,and how many?
(pakistan is certainly enjoying a lot of gifts these days)

Nair · Post by **Nair** » 25 Apr 2010 19:34

kittoo wrote:
So...that means I have to change my current order of most hated countries from

Pak
China
US

to

Pak
US=China?

I hate US so much right now.

Really?..China gave them nukes and missiles to launch it on compared to the US giving them some conventional weaponry none of which will stand before an Indian conventional offensive to any degree...and both are comparable?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 25 Apr 2010 20:12

parshuram wrote:ya I nearly fainted when he termed Chinese AWAC as revrese engineered PHALCON.. Chill Went down my spine that chinese can even reverse engineer technology by seeing IAF PHALOCN' s wallparers or folowing BR . because as per i know no body else is going to give them any better info let alone access to PHALCON

Our friends the Israelis were all set to sell the Phalcon to China when the much hated AmirKhans blocked the sale. You never know whose National Interests might be aligned to yours at what time.