LCA news and discussion

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Apr 2010 09:41

Gagan wrote: http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2509/lcammr.jpg

This is EXACTLY what was displayed in Aero India 2007 as the equipment that would go in LSP 3

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Apr 2010 09:52

things could have changed since then because MMR as a whole failed. initial publicity was MMR front end (antenna and signal generator) and EL2032 back end. so maybe that failed at some point too - I doubt its as simple as connection two switches together. and they decided to go wholly with a EL2032 as-is or Elta came up with a proposal to use the EL2052 instead in 2008 if it was nearing completion of testing. if EL2052 is available, there is no point even today in saddling the 40 Tejas1 with 2032 except cost.

btw in last 3 years of living in koramangala I have seen the Cabs-hack a/c flying once only. Can anyone report seeing it making multiple flights every week which would be a MUST if the MMR-2032 was in testing prior to LSP3 flight ? Shiv since
you "live" on the golf course, how many times in last year have you seen that a/c ?

if no HACK was flying, how could this thing be considered tested in the air ? mounting it atop the LRDE radar tower is only
part of the exercise.

EL2032 was fully qualified in israel so needs no testing on hack. likewise the 2052 has a 707 flying testbed in israel.

I am running with the 100% 2032/2052 theory ball for now. if totally EL2032 LSP3 should not have been so delayed. if EL2052 the delay could be understandable because additional cooling and power would need to be accounted for and
perhaps the cockpit display sw also changed.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Apr 2010 10:02

Very possible.

Though I would keep my fingers crossed for a DRDO / LRDE contributed Radar.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Apr 2010 10:46

Singha wrote: how many times in last year have you seen that a/c ?

Never from the course - but I vaguely recall seeing it in the air once in the last 2 years. Interesting point. Never thought about it.

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Apr 2010 12:05

^^^ Connecting Singha and Pandyan saar's posts( and "charatcer certificate" provided by Pratik-ji about HAL source), it seems more and more probable that it is indeed the 2052 which flew on the LSP-3 since BRF chaiwallahs are insisting that a AESA flew and it is highly unlikely that SDRE AESA was just built up without any significant testing etc ( unless it was done in Israel).

True smoke and mirrors stuff ( just like the countless Prithvi tests

)

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Apr 2010 12:20

LRDE is based off Kolar airfield. Wouldn't the hack be flying off that place instead of HAL bangalore hain ji?

How many HACK flights have the junta seen off HAL?

I think they have a Mi-8 or a transporter conveying scientists between HAL and Kolar.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 25 Apr 2010 12:36

sum you have hit the nail , when i was going through previous posts on Hack and why its not been seen around, then i remembered that Hack first flew with MMR on board AVRO HACK on September 1997 (13 years ago), chaiwala news reports over the years has been telling desi MMR had serious issues with reliability and detection and it even failed to detect aircraft's in close range , now coming back to HACK non seen flying around again chaiwala news report that told me few months ago that MMR has been tested in Israeli test bed in Israel and i am 100 % sure on this matter ,so it cannot be base line elta's 2032 radar since radar is in production and been tested, it can be desi MMR with 2032 components or 2052

sunilpatel · Post by **sunilpatel** » 25 Apr 2010 12:58

kya huva bhai??? any pan wala, chaiwala, birdwala...kisi ko to puchho

where is mehtaji?? whose chaiwala told before few time regarding everythng is ok...LSP 3 is delayed due to only other critical issue toehr then RAdar..

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Apr 2010 15:45

chackojoseph wrote:I just called up the relevant authority. I am told that its an MMR. I will be told if its AESA or not as soon as its confirmed.

So it an MMR and not the MMR that everyone knows.

Atleast is it Indian/Indian hybrid ?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Apr 2010 16:00

Cain Marko wrote: 730 TRM? For a nose that big it would be v.suboptimal, what size TRMs does the Elta chappies have? The solah has a smaller nose, so does the Gripen, so does the Rafale, and still they have AESAs ranging from 900 (Rafale) - 1000+ TRM (F-16/GripenNG). Why would the Tejas suffer from smaller nos of TRMs when its nose is decidedly bigger? Nope, perhaps due to cooling issues and requirements it might not be as big as an ApG-79 (1100TRM) as on the Shornet (similar sized nose as the LCA- slightly bigger perhaps) but I fully expect it to be a 1000 TRM AESA.

May not be exactly correct. But around that figure. More than 700 TRM. Elta one has 1400 to 1500 TRM. Rafale nose dimension is lesser than Tejas but it supports close to 1000 TRM. I dont have any answer; only can hazzard a guess. But it doesnt have to be cooling alone, even size of MMIC module may be the reason. Another possibility is it could be Mk1.

And just to fuel the rumor mill some more - if you recall correctly, there were newsreports of India getting some 2052 units in around 2007 (for evals?). Thereafter, there was a sudden rush of AESA offers from vendors such as Selex (Captor AESA) and perhaps even from Raytheon.
CM

hmm, news is that Elta 2052 was sold to Asian country w/o specifying the country. Yes there one from Selex. But I'm not sure whether Raytheon & NG offered joint development. I think that was part of the MMRCA package.
AESA Radar tech for LCA

“We have offered to co-develop the Active Electronically Scanned Array(AESA) E-Copter radars with DRDO-LRDE,” CEO of the company Stefan Zoller told reporters here.

If India takes up the offer, it would mean a giant technology leap, as US companies Raytheon and Northop Grumann, which pioneered the technology, are still awaiting Pentagon clearance on offering technology transfer on such radars.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Apr 2010 16:06

From Wiki:

The 3D Multi-mode radar, a HAL project of which DRDO's LRDE is a subsystem provider, this project to develop an advanced, lightweight Multimode fire control radar for the LCA Tejas fighter, has faced stiff challenges and been struck by delay. It has now been completed with Elta's (Israel) assistance. The multimode radar is a greater than 100 km (62 mi) range (detection of a small fighter target), 10 target track, two target engage, lightweight system with an all-up weight of only 130 kg. At the Aero India Trade fair in 2007, it was revealed that an all new combined signal and data processor had been developed, replacing the original separate units. Substantial weight and volume savings apart, the new unit is much more powerful and makes use of contemporary ADSP processors. The other radar critical hardware has also been developed and validated, however work remains on the software front. The software for the air to air mode has been developed considerably (including search and track while scan in both look up and look down modes) but air to ground modes are being still worked upon. The radar development was shown to be considerably more mature than previously thought. At Aero India 2009, it was revealed that the 3D MMR project has been superseded by the new 3D AESA FCR project led by LRDE. The MMR itself has been completed with Elta Israel's assistance and now involved Elta 2032 technology for Air to Ground mapping and targeting. This "hybrid" MMR has been trialled, validated and will be supplied for the initial MK1 LCAs of which 2 Squadrons worth are to be ordered by the Indian Air Force (around 40 units). The MK2 LCA will receive the new AESA radar.

So btw 2007 and 2009 MMR AESA project was started. So hybrid MMR is trialled and validated....hmm...

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Apr 2010 16:15

pandyan wrote: Also, fairly recently, there was a report on LRDE requesting partners for AESA radar development for LCA where pretty much all major components were listed under partner's scope of work.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/02/ex ... tejas.html

If AESA/2052 integration did happen what would be the purpose of the tender that was issued in feb'2010.

Could be possible for different generation of AESA elements. We are working with GaAs from mid 90s.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 25 Apr 2010 19:03

Its not a AESA.

I am just feeling awful!!

http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/201 ... -aesa.html

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Apr 2010 19:29

Reporting as I found is shifting sand. If you are not listening attentively and not verifying 2-3 times then you could get into trouble. Also, ask only the key personnel, others offer a lot of stories. Most are ignorant.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Apr 2010 19:35

It is a phenomenal achievement none the less. When I look around the world at the 180 odd countries, I think barely a dozen or so have actually developed a radar and that too something as high tech as this one.

Congrats to LRDE, DRDO and Elta on the successful integration with the LCA. Now on to weapons trials and the AESA of course!

steve · Post by **steve** » 25 Apr 2010 20:02

It was confirmed to us that the radar is 100% Indian with only the processor of Israeli origin.

This radar will be used on the first 40 LCA's which are on order for the Indian Air force(IAF). Later on the LCA Mk-2's will have a AESA which is in works.

It does not matter weather it is a AESA or a normal MMR radar. We have to be very proud of the fact that INDIA became one of the Few countries in the world to make radar for a combat aircraft.

Mind you making radar for a fighter aircraft is far more difficult and is completly different story from making all those ground based radars that India has made till now

From now on thing are only going to get better i,e..........soon we are going to have our own AESA for Mk-2 version of LCA

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 25 Apr 2010 20:06

Gagan wrote:It is a phenomenal achievement none the less. When I look around the world at the 180 odd countries, I think barely a dozen or so have actually developed a radar and that too something as high tech as this one.
...

While this program is a significant achievement, achieving a high transmit power and low noise figure for high range, precise directivity, and a wide field of view are only part of the challenge. Along with the ELTA processor would have come the signal processing algorithms which help unearth targets from a cacophony of radio noise. This is a prime example of where ToT is not nearly sufficient and where the "know why" and the "know how" are equally important. Calling this an Indian radar is like calling the Phalcon Russian. It would be fair to call it an Indo-Israeli radar.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Apr 2010 20:08

pandyan wrote: Also, fairly recently, there was a report on LRDE requesting partners for AESA radar development for LCA where pretty much all major components were listed under partner's scope of work.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/02/ex ... tejas.html

The RFP requires the foreign 'partner' to develop the antenna, T/R modules etc while LRDE (presumably) does the back end, signals processor, software etc. Considering the trouble its being having with the MMR's back end, how do they expect to do it for this proposed radar, an AESA no less.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Apr 2010 20:19

The LCA is an Indian plane with foreign parts.

So too is this radar.

Good work. Integration is never easy. It is as challenging as building from ground up. Granted the integrators have a number to call in Israel and manuals written in good English.

Now on to the AESA. Which should be of great value to the AMCA too.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 25 Apr 2010 20:26

I am not sure if one is able to fathom or realize.....but there is already a fleet of LCAs in various levels of operation. That is one hell of an achievement. Remember....how long it took to make the first prototype? And see how quickly the good folks built the subsequent ones?
Avram

prabir · Post by **prabir** » 25 Apr 2010 20:27

Start was needed. Everything should fall in place with 5 yrs time.
Between 1991-97, there was neglect of defence because of economic troubles. After that 1998 tests also caused sanctions to be applied. Delay in LCA, Arjun and other projects should also account for the above factors.
Slowly, but firmly, things are falling into place.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 25 Apr 2010 20:53

asprinzl wrote:I am not sure if one is able to fathom or realize.....but there is already a fleet of LCAs in various levels of operation. That is one hell of an achievement. Remember....how long it took to make the first prototype? And see how quickly the good folks built the subsequent ones?
Avram

That is true a hundred times over, Avram

Thats what we come to the forum everyday for

Having the LCA trainer chasing the LSP-3 is heart warming, as is having the best of the IAF piloting these birds.

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 25 Apr 2010 21:10

IMO we should stick to ELTA and work with them on a high power and modified version of the EL-2052 AESA for the LCA mk-2, we have a good working relationship with them and full-tot wont be a problem. Being able to track 64 targets etc is nice to have. The EL-2052's max. detection range is also very good. For now, the MMR should have a 80NM range or roughly 150km, tracking range for a fighter sized target will be around 100km which is good and max range for a naval target will be around 160NM or roughly 300km. I think if we can double the ranges right now with the EL-2052 AESA, that should be good, modify it to have a swahplate type moving AESA and will be a nice lil addition to the EL-2052.

sunilpatel · Post by **sunilpatel** » 25 Apr 2010 21:31

Brahmananda wrote:IMO we should stick to ELTA and work with them on a high power and modified version of the EL-2052 AESA for the LCA mk-2, we have a good working relationship with them and full-tot wont be a problem. Being able to track 64 targets etc is nice to have. The EL-2052's max. detection range is also very good. For now, the MMR should have a 80NM range or roughly 150km, tracking range for a fighter sized target will be around 100km which is good and max range for a naval target will be around 160NM or roughly 300km. I think if we can double the ranges right now with the EL-2052 AESA, that should be good, modify it to have a swahplate type moving AESA and will be a nice lil addition to the EL-2052.

any source for these ranges??...particularly MMR on MK1..

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Apr 2010 21:39

smpratik wrote:Its not a AESA. I am just feeling awful!!
http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/201 ... -aesa.html

as a double confirmation you could have asked for the status of AESA radar....

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Apr 2010 21:45

Viv S wrote:
pandyan wrote: Also, fairly recently, there was a report on LRDE requesting partners for AESA radar development for LCA where pretty much all major components were listed under partner's scope of work.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/02/ex ... tejas.html

The RFP requires the foreign 'partner' to develop the antenna, T/R modules etc while LRDE (presumably) does the back end, signals processor, software etc. Considering the trouble its being having with the MMR's back end, how do they expect to do it for this proposed radar, an AESA no less.

Is it not obvious that they solved the back end problem ?
Elta provides an upgrade path to the existing 2032 user by replacing the front end unit with AESA 2052 front end.
Same way, Selex provides Captor E as low risk upgrade by changing the front end of Captor-M to AESA. What you can understand is it is very much possible to fine tune the existing backend for the AESA frontend. And Indians don't do off-the-shelf business. They must have absorbed the backend tech whereever they were found lagging.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Apr 2010 21:49

chackojoseph wrote: Reporting as I found is shifting sand. If you are not listening attentively and not verifying 2-3 times then you could get into trouble. Also, ask only the key personnel, others offer a lot of stories. Most are ignorant.

What is your opinion sir, you too confirming as non AESA ?

steve · Post by **steve** » 25 Apr 2010 22:14

If we look at the above Image, we basically see 4 parts of MMR Radar made by DRDO-LRDE for LCA .

1. The Radar Antena

followed by three gadgets places at the back...........resembling Black square Shaped objects.

2. Advanced Signal & Data Processor

3. Power Amplifier Unit
4. Exciter & Receiver

So as per the news the Unit placed at the TOP back of Radar antenna is of Israel Origin.

steve · Post by **steve** » 25 Apr 2010 22:24

Note : The Radar Processor in the Image is of Indian Origin. But Looks like their might have been some problems with it and so they have now replaced it with Israel one.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Apr 2010 00:15

One does not need to replace the entire ASDP for additional functions. All they might have done is add an additional LRU "black box" or even additional cards if the original ASDP allowed for it.

PratikDas: "While this program is a significant achievement, achieving a high transmit power and low noise figure for high range, precise directivity, and a wide field of view are only part of the challenge. Along with the ELTA processor would have come the signal processing algorithms which help unearth targets from a cacophony of radio noise. This is a prime example of where ToT is not nearly sufficient and where the "know why" and the "know how" are equally important. Calling this an Indian radar is like calling the Phalcon Russian. It would be fair to call it an Indo-Israeli radar."

Where is the evidence that all the software for A2A was provided by the Israelis? The Phalcon comparison is humorous but hardly accurate, given that almost all the hardware is Indian and in all likelihood, a substantial amount of the software as well.

VivS:The RFP requires the foreign 'partner' to develop the antenna, T/R modules etc while LRDE (presumably) does the back end, signals processor, software etc. Considering the trouble its being having with the MMR's back end, how do they expect to do it for this proposed radar, an AESA no less.
India is actually doing the end to end AESA development for the AEW&C program, which includes a similar approach (control unit with processing, receiver and exciter plus the software). You might want to look into (in order), the LSTAR, the SV-2000 and XV-2004 programs. That will answer your question.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Apr 2010 00:21

steve wrote:http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2509/lcammr.jpg

If we look at the above Image, we basically see 4 parts of MMR Radar made by DRDO-LRDE for LCA .

1. The Radar Antena

followed by three gadgets places at the back...........resembling Black square Shaped objects.

..hence, the colloquial term "black boxes" used to describe these units.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 26 Apr 2010 00:26

Is SV-2000 really into production?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 26 Apr 2010 00:41

Mrinal wrote: ...
The Phalcon comparison is humorous but hardly accurate, given that almost all the hardware is Indian and in all likelihood, a substantial amount of the software as well.

Are you serious? You challenge my statement based on a lack of evidence and then go on to mention likelihoods?

Yes, I think it is far more likely that ELTA would not give away their source codes - a Radar's brain, and I think it is far more likely that an ELTA processor is being used because of the codes that come along with it.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Apr 2010 00:54

Kanson wrote: Is it not obvious that they solved the back end problem ?

Is it? I gathered the LSP-3's radar has a 2032 back end. I suppose you could call that a solution.

Elta provides an upgrade path to the existing 2032 user by replacing the front end unit with AESA 2052 front end.
Same way, Selex provides Captor E as low risk upgrade by changing the front end of Captor-M to AESA. What you can understand is it is very much possible to fine tune the existing backend for the AESA frontend. And Indians don't do off-the-shelf business. They must have absorbed the backend tech whereever they were found lagging.

Well... I guess the 2052 is a certainty then. Because, Captor-E antenna with a 2032/2052 back end is just befuddling.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Apr 2010 01:05

Mrinal wrote: VivS:
India is actually doing the end to end AESA development for the AEW&C program, which includes a similar approach (control unit with processing, receiver and exciter plus the software). You might want to look into (in order), the LSTAR, the SV-2000 and XV-2004 programs. That will answer your question.

It certainly is but then fighter sized radar is a different prospect with its own size, cooling, power etc issues. The Swedes have had an AESA on the Erieye operational for quite a while, yet the Gripen is still flying with a pulse-doppler radar. Its the same with the Israelis, Phalcon was operational long before the EL/M-2052, which completed development only recently.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Apr 2010 01:19

VivS: What you wrote is already known. Which is why I asked you to also look at the SV-2000 and XV-2004.

PratikDas:Are you serious? You challenge my statement based on a lack of evidence and then go on to mention likelihoods?

Was your statement even worthy of being challenged? It seemed pretty obvious that you were speculating, and all I did was mention alternative scenarios which were more likely.

Yes, I think it is far more likely that ELTA would not give away their source codes - a Radar's brain, and I think it is far more likely that an ELTA processor is being used because of the codes that come along with it.

And what were these magical source codes for, pray? Are these for air to air? Are these for Air to Ground? Are they for DBS? Or for SAR? Or for ISAR?
At this point, you dont even know which modes are referred to, and what the cooperation with Elta entails, yet off you go making predictions and getting testy about being challenged and what not when it is pointed out to you that your belief could well diverge from the reality!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Apr 2010 01:24

Viv S wrote:
Kanson wrote: Is it not obvious that they solved the back end problem ?
Is it? I gathered the LSP-3's radar has a 2032 back end. I suppose you could call that a solution.

What is a "back end" of a radar? Is it the receiver, the exciter, the power amplifier/ the TWT, or the signal processor, the radar data processor? Or all together? If co, care to inform us when and where the entire "back end" was replaced with that of the 2032 when:

http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/201 ... -aesa.html

" It was confirmed to us that the radar is 100% Indian with only the processor of Israeli origin. "

The processor alone is not the back end.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 26 Apr 2010 01:25

Mrinal wrote: ..
And what were these magical source codes for, pray? Are these for air to air? Are these for Air to Ground? Are they for DBS? Or for SAR? Or for ISAR?
At this point, you dont even know which modes are referred to, and what the cooperation with Elta entails, yet off you go making predictions and getting testy about being challenged and what not when it is pointed out to you that your belief could well diverge from the reality!

Being quite grounded in reality, I don't expect any form of SAR.

Please educate us then. What does the relationship with Elta entail? Why are we using their processor? Is it just because their's runs cooler for the same Indian codes compared to when they're run on the Indian processor?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Apr 2010 01:27

putnanja wrote:Is SV-2000 really into production?

Development has been completed, and its production ready. But focus is now on the XV-2004 for series production, as it comes with ISAR and measurement capabilities.

SV = Super Vision (c)2000
XV = eXtra Vision (c)2004

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 26 Apr 2010 01:33

Development has been completed, and its production ready. But focus is now on the XV-2004 for series production, as it comes with ISAR and measurement capabilities.

SV = Super Vision (c)2000
XV = eXtra Vision (c)2004

Mrinal sir, LRDE was working on SAR & ISAR. Does it mean that they have successfully developed them ??
If they have, then it's really a great news. They will be very handful in UAV's.

Thanks