Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

[atreya]

I have a doubt regarding the RR. AFAIK, one battalion of RR is affiliated to the Parachute Regiment. Does this mean that members of this battalion are soldiers of the Parachute Regiment? And is it this battalion that is referred to as "RR Commando"?

[kenop]

Hi
Not strictly a millitary question:
Where does one find out the airspace categorization in India. I have managed to understand that there are grades A to G where A is the most restricted. There should be a map somewhere to refer to. The idea is to understand how things like gliding, balooning by the civillians are regulated. There has to be some information on the height one is allowed to reach in area X and not in area Y etc.
Any ideas to contribute?
Cheers

[rajatmisra]

i am sure an idiotic question to many, but neverthless - the IAF has phased out Mig23 and 27, though they were more contemporary that Mig-21s. All, I understand, were in similar roles. Is that correct? then why phase them out and retain Mig21?

[atreya]

i am sure an idiotic question to many, but neverthless - the IAF has phased out Mig23 and 27, though they were more contemporary that Mig-21s. All, I understand, were in similar roles. Is that correct? then why phase them out and retain Mig21?

The first thing is that Mig 27 is still in service. Mig 23 has been phased out.
Secondly, Mig 27 is a ground-attack aircraft, while Mig 23 was an air interceptor. Mig-21 is a multi-role aircraft- it performs the attack and interceptor roles equally well.
Now, I am not sure of the answer to your last question, but I'll hazard a guess- the induction of fighters like Su-30 and Mig-29, has proved to be the death call for Mig 23. There was no need for an interceptor, when air superiority aircraft like these came in. On the other hand, there is no replacement for Mig 27. Mig 21 cannot be phased out so easily as there are no similar aircraft in comparable numbers, though it's role CAN be performed by Mirage 2000, if I am not wrong. The latter has been used successfully in Kargil for ground attack, and according to one Internet source, it's air combat performance was similar to that of F-16 (during Indo-US exercises). The MRCA will be replacing the Mig 21s and the indigenous MCA is slated to replace the Mig 27s and Jaguars.
You'll have to wait for the gurus for a better answer!

[shiv]

i am sure an idiotic question to many, but neverthless - the IAF has phased out Mig23 and 27, though they were more contemporary that Mig-21s. All, I understand, were in similar roles. Is that correct? then why phase them out and retain Mig21?

MiG 21s were bought in a knee jerk response after Pakistan was gifted F-104 Starfighters in 1961 making the PAF the first subcontinental air force to get supersonic fighters.

MiG 23s were bought as a knee jerk response when Pakistan got its first F 16s from the US. I am not sure why the ground attack MiG 27s were bought but it could have been (like the MRCA) a stop gap "filler" because India has been negotiating for an entire yuga to get the "Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft" Jaguar.

It turned out that the MiG 21 was/is actually a very good aircraft. It became popular with a lot of air forces and production lines persisted in the USSR and upgrades were done - often at India's insistence. the MiG 21 got a gun because India asked for it. And almost by karma the MiG 21 has lasted very long - with its latest upgrade again having been done at Indians behest.

The MiG 23 and 27 used "flash in the pan" swing wing (variable geometry) technology. They were powerful but carried a light load and their crash rate was higher than the MiG 21 despite the fact that it was the MiG 21 that got the bad name. And their design was, AFAIK not really upgradable. The roles were by no means similar. The MiG 23 was bought as an interceptor to shoot down Paki F 16s. MiG 27s were bought for strike and had a laser target designator in the nose. The MiG 21 was a light daytime interceptor but has morphed into a multirole fighter over the decades.

[nachiket]

i am sure an idiotic question to many, but neverthless - the IAF has phased out Mig23 and 27, though they were more contemporary that Mig-21s. All, I understand, were in similar roles. Is that correct? then why phase them out and retain Mig21?

MiG 23s were bought as a knee jerk response when Pakistan got its first F 16s from the US.

What I find interesting is that the IAF ended up buying not one but three very different aircraft to counter the Paki F-16s in a span of less than 10 years.

They were powerful but carried a light load and their crash rate was higher than the MiG 21 despite the fact that it was the MiG 21 that got the bad name.

This more than anything else I think is what led to the demise of the Mig-23 earlier than the Mig-21. The Mig-23 MF had a fairly large nose which could have housed a decent new radar had an upgrade been done.

[shiv]

This more than anything else I think is what led to the demise of the Mig-23 earlier than the Mig-21. The Mig-23 MF had a fairly large nose which could have housed a decent new radar had an upgrade been done.

Well considering that they were swing wing and there was no way of creating more swivelling wing pylons to carry a bigger load (without cerating a virtually new aircraft) the possibility of upgrade of that design was limited from the outset.

[nachiket]

This more than anything else I think is what led to the demise of the Mig-23 earlier than the Mig-21. The Mig-23 MF had a fairly large nose which could have housed a decent new radar had an upgrade been done.

Well considering that they were swing wing and there was no way of creating more swivelling wing pylons to carry a bigger load (without cerating a virtually new aircraft) the possibility of upgrade of that design was limited from the outset.

Shiv, it had six hardpoints with a 3000kg payload. The Mig-29 has seven with the one under the fuselage reserved for a drop tank and a 3500kg payload. Not much of a difference IMO. The swing-wing design would have made it maintenance intensive though compared to the light and simple Mig-21.

[shiv]

Shiv, it had six hardpoints with a 3000kg payload. The Mig-29 has seven with the one under the fuselage reserved for a drop tank and a 3500kg payload. Not much of a difference IMO.

Yes but the MiG 29 was a dedicated air superiority fighter with performance to match. There was no messing about or "adjustment" regarding its role. The MiG 23 too was an "interceptor" with BVR capability when first envisaged. I think it was developed as a counter to fast, high flying US/NATO attack aircraft. Not the F-16 specifically which was yet to come. The strike capability on its derivative the MiG 27 was very much secondary. And the large mechanical wing joints and the actuators for the wing sweep and the pre-set of wing sweep to just 3 positions, the lack of multiple swivelling hardpoints were all design features that were waiting to become outmoded.

[nachiket]

Yes but the MiG 29 was a dedicated air superiority fighter with performance to match. There was no messing about or "adjustment" regarding its role.

Of course, I'm not comparing their performance. Just the payloads.

The MiG 23 too was an "interceptor" with BVR capability when first envisaged. I think it was developed as a counter to fast, high flying US/NATO attack aircraft. Not the F-16 specifically which was yet to come.

True, it isn't exactly known for being an agile dogfighter. BVR combat was its forte. Which is why I guess it could only be a half measure against the F-16 and the IAf had to go in for the M2k and the Mig-29.

The strike capability on its derivative the MiG 27 was very much secondary. And the large mechanical wing joints and the actuators for the wing sweep and the pre-set of wing sweep to just 3 positions, the lack of multiple swivelling hardpoints were all design features that were waiting to become outmoded.

I don't know. If it had been necessary, the Russians might have been able to come up with an upgrade which took care of these problems. But it was totally unnecessary after the Mig-29 and Su-27 came out with their dazzling performance. The MF version just became useless to the Russians.

[rohiths]

What is the max speed of HAL Tejas. It is given as Mach 2 in Wikipedia but has it flown that fast any time.
What is the difference between Tejas Mk II and Gripen NG. I found Tejas to be better if you just compare specs on Wikipedia

[sunny y]

What is the max speed of HAL Tejas. It is given as Mach 2 in Wikipedia but has it flown that fast any time.
What is the difference between Tejas Mk II and Gripen NG. I found Tejas to be better if you just compare specs on Wikipedia

The maximum speed Tejas has clocked is around 1.3 Mach in Goa last December.
This difference between Tejas & Gripen has already been discussed many times here. You should check Military aviation thread & also MRCA thread (some off topic discussion took place there).

In short AFAIK the only difference is that Gripen NG is undergoing trials whereas Tejas Mk-II is still on paper although both IAF & ADA are very committed to it. The engine was to be finalized by March but so far no news

Thanks

[sunny y]

Hi.....I have a query..
I want to learn more about the use of Robotics in Indian scientific establishment.
I mean ISRO is collaborating with IIT-K for moon rover Smartnev but Are there any Indian programs similiar to NASA's Robonaut.

Please reply

Thanks

[sum]

X-post:

Guys, need a quick answer for a friend of mine:

Which are the major GoI( DRDO also included but not educational institutions like IITs etc) orgs doing quality work on Computer Sciences?

Some names would be greatly appreciated.

[sunny y]

Guys, need a quick answer for a friend of mine:

Which are the major GoI( DRDO also included but not educational institutions like IITs etc) orgs doing quality work on Computer Sciences?

Some names would be greatly appreciated.

Check out this link...It was written in 1995 but it gives an overview of the work that is being done in our Labs...You can then check the websites of these orgs for details....

A Detailed Report on R&D at Indian Computer-Science Establishments - A report by Prof. Krithi Ramamritham

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/india/agency/krithi1.html


Thanks

[shiv]

The maximum speed Tejas has clocked is around 1.3 Mach in Goa last December.

I vaguely seem to recall the figure 1.6. Perhaps someone else can conform.

Nope - I think you're right its 1.3 Anyway I found this news

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... ng/551536/

[Rahul M]

The maximum speed Tejas has clocked is around 1.3 Mach in Goa last December.

the test in goa was the maximum speed at sea level. it has clocked 1.6 mach @ higher altitudes previously.

edit : ok, confusion time !
I've this http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 68#p637568

K Mehta wrote:
Post Link(this link is also not working now)
Info-relay from K prasad
Confirmed from CEMILAC director
LCA tested upto
1.6 mach
1354 Km
6g
22 AoA
more AoA after anti-spin parachute is integrated

then there are numerous articles from before 2007-08 that mach 1.4 has been touched. In addition, I vaguely remember PS Subramanyam saying mach 1.6 has been done in one of his interviews.

however, assuming it means 1354kmph in the above post, like in the report, it can't come out to more than 1.3 mach at any altitude ?

[atreya]

What is the legality of PMCs (private military contractors) in India? Are there are any such companies/contractors in India? UK and USA have a number of active PMCs. What prompted me to ask was a book I read on Operation Barras, called "Operation Certain Death" by Damien Lewis . It describes in detail the operations of a South African PMC called Executive Outcomes (EO), which was used with great success against RUF in Sierra Leone.
What I suggest next can be taboo and an "extreme" measure. Based on the response here, I will shift it to the CT and COIN thread.
I am in no way suggesting that RUF and Maoists are comparable, but if EO was successful against RUF, then why not contract a PMC for operations against Maoists. They need not eliminate them completely. They can be contracted for a specified period of time, they can work in co-ordination with CRPF and state police, and when some damage is done, their operations can be ceased. How feasible is this?

A humble, little suggestion only.

[sunny y]

Bharat-Rakshaks...Any replies to my query.....Please

Hi.....I have a query..
I want to learn more about the use of Robotics in Indian scientific establishment.
I mean ISRO is collaborating with IIT-K for moon rover Smartnev but Are there any Indian programs similiar to NASA's Robonaut.

Please reply

Thanks

[Sachin]

What are the different flags that were hoisted, all on one rope going all the way from the flag-pole of the Navy's flag to the superstructure.

The flags you saw are different from the regimental colours used in IA. What you would have seen is the "International Maritime Signal Flags" at display. They have got a flag to display an English letter. Each letter also means some thing (some may be used across Navies, but some may be specific to Indian Navy only). Check up the below two links from Wikipedia.
International Maritime Signal Flags
England expects that every man will do his duty

[nishu]

guys see to believe this
http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2009 ... r-cabrios/

[atreya]

Mad Russians! Who would have paid if God forbid, something happened to the jet or it crashed? I wonder if the producer would have paid 35 million $ !!
That only, if the pilot safely ejected!

[neerajb]

I was going through "Sukhoi Su-30 Flanker in Indian Service" and was shocked to see MKI pilot (Indradhanush II circa 2007) carrying a portable Garmin GPS set with him. Does our MKI has a dedicated GPS receiver or do we use Garmin for SATNAV purposes ?

Cheers....

[shiv]

I was going through "Sukhoi Su-30 Flanker in Indian Service" and was shocked to see MKI pilot (Indradhanush II circa 2007) carrying a portable Garmin GPS set with him. Does our MKI has a dedicated GPS receiver or do we use Garmin for SATNAV purposes ?

Cheers....

It is possible that the pilot is using the Garmin receiver. When you get past the shock of that consider this. "GPS" itself is American. The data that is given to the mango GPS users is not as accurate as the data fed to the US military and all data to mango public including Su 30 pilot can be cut off if the US desires.

Under the circumstances it hardly matters if uses a Garmin or a built in dedicated GPS. He has to depend on other things. All this "dedicated shedicated" stuff is fine when we have a GPS system of our own backed by a threat to knock off others' satellites if they dare hit ours.

Until then have some chai biskoot

[Manish_Sharma]

Until then have some chai biskoot

I think Hajmola to digest this info........

[vardhank]

Question: for the Brahmos and Nirbhay that will be integrated with the Su-30, what targetting system will be used?
Will they be using data-links with military satellites, or target-marking, or something else?

[rajatmisra]

What is the key difference between a "normal" Para unit and an SF unit? Are all Para now being converted to SF?
ALso if para is all volunteer, then what happens when existing regiments are converted?

[atreya]

What is the key difference between a "normal" Para unit and an SF unit? Are all Para now being converted to SF?
ALso if para is all volunteer, then what happens when existing regiments are converted?

The "normal" Para soldiers are simply parachute-qualified, but not commando trained. The Para (SF) battalions maybe drawn from these battalions + other Army regiments. They are both commando trained and parachute qualified. For the sake of understanding, you can say that the Parachute battalions are the bridge between standard infantry and Para (SF).
I don't think all Para units are being converted to SF. Not sure of that, though.
I didn't get your last question.

[rajatmisra]

Sorry, the last question rephrased:
If an existing regular infantry unit (say 21 Maratha LI) is converted to Para, then obviously the Para would not remain an all volunteer unit?
further, then would 21 Maratha LI continue to recruit from its traditional area of recruitment, or would it be from pan-India ?

[koti]

OT
I am now a BRFite.....

[Gaur]

What is the key difference between a "normal" Para unit and an SF unit? Are all Para now being converted to SF?
ALso if para is all volunteer, then what happens when existing regiments are converted?

The "normal" Para soldiers are simply parachute-qualified, but not commando trained. The Para (SF) battalions maybe drawn from these battalions + other Army regiments. They are both commando trained and parachute qualified. For the sake of understanding, you can say that the Parachute battalions are the bridge between standard infantry and Para (SF).
I don't think all Para units are being converted to SF. Not sure of that, though.
I didn't get your last question.

This "may" be the case before, but according to an Officer I had a chat with recently, all PARA personnel (SF or otherwise) undergo the same initial training to earn that maroon beret. The difference is of role and deployment. The SF are chosen from those who complete the same training with greater distinction. Also, and it is just my guess, the difference may be that the regular training of SF may be more extensive than that or PARA.

PS: I must confess that this procedure of all PARA personnel going through same training does not make sense to me. So it is very much possible that I may have misunderstood the good officer's comment. So, it would be very much appreciated if someone who knows someone from PARA (Surya?) could shed some light on this subject.

[Gaur]

Sorry, the last question rephrased:
If an existing regular infantry unit (say 21 Maratha LI) is converted to Para, then obviously the Para would not remain an all volunteer unit?
further, then would 21 Maratha LI continue to recruit from its traditional area of recruitment, or would it be from pan-India ?

I do not understand. Why would 21 MLI or some other Infantry unit be converted to PARA?
As you mentioned, all PARA personnel are volunteers. The procedure, as I understand is that when an officer is asked to give his preference to chose a regiment at IMA, he can choose PARA. Also, an officer may volunteer to join PARA even after he has served some time at his regiment.
The officer then is asked to sign a contract stating that IA is not liable for any injury suffered during training. My understanding is that to join SF, he needs to pass the same PARA training with more distinction.
Gurus can correct me if there is something wrong here. Also, can someone shed some light on whether the procedure for PBOR is similar?
PS: We sure miss RayC sir on such situations. He could have easily cleared the confusion.

[neilmurali]

can someone tell me what ideas do they expect at the chief's Dreamers Club on the official Website
PLS

[jimmy_moh]

http://news.rediff.com/column/2010/may/ ... y-risk.htm

oh my god.... am i wrking for enemy

[atreya]

I do not understand. Why would 21 MLI or some other Infantry unit be converted to PARA?

Gaur, except for 4th, 9th & 10th battalion of Para SF, rest all are converted battalions, with 2 battalions from MLI, 1 each from Punjab Regiment & Kumaon Regiment. I think when a battalion is "converted" to Para SF, then it ceases to be a battalion of the earlier regiment and becomes a part of Parachute Regiment. All members of the battalion undergo Parachute qualification.
Rajat, you maybe right in saying that in such a case, the Para regiment isn't an "all volunteer" regiment.
And, IMO, that said battalion will no longer recruit from its traditional area. Anyways, the "battalion" never recruits. The "Regiment" recruits and assigns the soldiers a battalion. And once a unit (say 21 MLI) has been converted, it ceases to be part of MLI. Its a part of Para, and would recruit from pan-India. Hope that clears you doubt!

Though, I admit, I have not yet fully grasped the concept of converting a regular infantry battalion into Para SF . What if many members of that battalion aren't able to clear para training and commando course? It isn't easy. That battalion will be under-strength then and the "rejected" members will be sent to other battalions of their parent regiment, I presume?

And Gaur, I too, am confused regarding the difference between Para SF and regular Para. If the "distinguished" pass outs are sent to Para SF and the rest to Para regular, then 1) the latter should have more battalions, but they have only 3, while SF has 7 and 2) Regular Para soldiers will be able to do commando tasks, i.e. operate in small units, covertly, behind enemy lines, etc. Do they do that?
I hope someone can clear this confusion!

[Gaur]

Gaur, except for 4th, 9th & 10th battalion of Para SF, rest all are converted battalions, with 2 battalions from MLI, 1 each from Punjab Regiment & Kumaon Regiment. I think when a battalion is "converted" to Para SF, then it ceases to be a battalion of the earlier regiment and becomes a part of Parachute Regiment. All members of the battalion undergo Parachute qualification.

I see. Thanks for the info. I was not aware of that.

And Gaur, I too, am confused regarding the difference between Para SF and regular Para. If the "distinguished" pass outs are sent to Para SF and the rest to Para regular, then 1) the latter should have more battalions, but they have only 3, while SF has 7 and 2) Regular Para soldiers will be able to do commando tasks, i.e. operate in small units, covertly, behind enemy lines, etc. Do they do that?
I hope someone can clear this confusion!

In this much I am sure that it is the "main" task of the regular PARA to perform operations behind enemy lines and they are trained accordingly for that. As to the "covert" and "small units" part, I do not know.

[rohitvats]

OK. Here is my two paisa on the Para and Para(SF) -

a) Officers volunteering for the Para(SF) will have to undergo a very tough 3 months (I've heard 6 months as well) probation with one of the Para(SF) Battalions. Rejection rate is extremely high. Passing this probation is the key to earning place in the Para(SF) Battalion. Those who clear probation go for Para qualification jump and earn the Maroon Beret and Para Wings. Balidan Badge is earned by either being with Para(SF) Battalion in operational area for 6 months or 1 year in peace location. Each volunteer for Para(SF) is also alloted another Regiment - he joins this in case of failing the probation. BTW, to be able to get Para(SF) from IMA requires very good recco from DS and consistent performance (especially in physical activities) through out entire term in IMA. GC joining Para(SF) from IMA pass out (where they take oath) wearing camo and Maroon Beret.

Officers can opt for Para(SF) after serving in other Infantry Regiments as well. However, as is practice in certain countries (SAS or SSG), they do not revert to parent Regiment. They are Para(SF) Officers for rest of their life.

(b) For making it to Para Battalions, on needs to clear the Para Course in Agra - the physical aspect as well as the jump training at PTS, Agra. The physical aspect itself is bloody tough.

I'm not aware as to how the Jawans make it to the SF Regiment.

The conversion of Para to Para(SF) was "light bulb" moment of one of the Para generals. Not something which has gone down well across the Para Community. We might well see more Para Battalions - All your Para Battalions cannot just sit in Agra. They need to be rotated out to operational areas.

[shiv]

Folks - any educated guesses as to why "digital camo" is becoming popular?

[Manish_Sharma]

^^Here seems like a good article, though many things I didn't understand:
http://www.hyperstealth.com/digital-design/index.htm

[shiv]

^^Here seems like a good article, though many things I didn't understand:
http://www.hyperstealth.com/digital-design/index.htm

Thanks Manish. I thought the change to digital was because of the various long range sensors that are used to detect targets at long ranges all ultimately break a signal into pixels in a sensor and imitating the pixellation produced by the surrounding environment serves as better camouflage against electronic sensors as opposed to the naked eye which cannot see beyond a few 100 meters.

I may be wrong - your link says

"Digital" camouflage is actually a misnomer, based on the superficial resemblance of these patterns to quantized or coarse digital images. In fact, the patterns of squares (or whatever shape we use) is employed to model the texture of typical backgrounds using a mathematical function. We could use hexagons or shapeless blobs as well, except that it is easier to render complex patterns by computer using squares. It is easy to misunderstand the purpose and mechanisms of this kind of design, which is why so many measures that try to use the approach without insight fall short