Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[Sanku]

Arjun will be inducted at the rate Avadi can make them, that has ALWAYS been the case since the project was started, much as people would not like to believe it.

Avadi can produce at higher rate if IA orders more. Remember that the current production line will break even only if IA orders at least 500 tanks, and that is taking the development costs too into account. Avadi can ramp up the production rate if IA says that it will order more. Why will Avadi take more loss to complete 124 tank order in 2 years, and then sell the machinery for scrap?

Breaking even or not frankly is NOT important, to me at least, since the project of this nature deserves sunk costs, no problems there. Its not purely a economic agrument.

But can Avadi make more than 50 ONLY if IA orders a larger number? Perhaps true -- but perhaps not -- We need to realize that an Order in Indian context is not really like ordering from a external vendor -- MoD can very well ask Avadi to ramp up to 100 tanks a year, because it knows that the coming order will be of 100 tanks.

Otherwise it will get into a chicken and egg situation. I would look at MoD to provide funds for extended line. What the hell is LTIPP etc for?

[Sanku]

HVF is not the only Indian org that has the capacity to manufacture tanks, it is merely the only one doing so right now. there is no reason why a project as critical as arjun has to be tied in perpetuity with the fortunes of an under-performing OFB factory.

Rahul M, while I would welcome any signs of tank making being diversified from Avadi, in reality there is no such discussion on the table. For better or for worse we are stuck with it. Including for T 72 overhauls and upgrades, T 90 manufacture and the whole shebang.

Not fixing Avadi is not a option, that must be pursued too. Butts MUST be kicked at Avadi.

[Thomas_S]

Arjun will be inducted at the rate Avadi can make them, that has ALWAYS been the case since the project was started, much as people would not like to believe it.

Avadi can produce at higher rate if IA orders more. Remember that the current production line will break even only if IA orders at least 500 tanks, and that is taking the development costs too into account. Avadi can ramp up the production rate if IA says that it will order more. Why will Avadi take more loss to complete 124 tank order in 2 years, and then sell the machinery for scrap?

Give order for 124 tanks and blame Avadi for not producing it in 2 years....wonderful
Now its the fault of Avadi.
Or should Avadi produce 100 tanks per year with the 124 tanks order?

[putnanja]

Breaking even or not frankly is NOT important, to me at least, since the project of this nature deserves sunk costs, no problems there. Its not purely a economic agrument.

But can Avadi make more than 50 ONLY if IA orders a larger number? Perhaps true -- but perhaps not -- We need to realize that an Order in Indian context is not really like ordering from a external vendor -- MoD can very well ask Avadi to ramp up to 100 tanks a year, because it knows that the coming order will be of 100 tanks.

Otherwise it will get into a chicken and egg situation. I would look at MoD to provide funds for extended line. What the hell is LTIPP etc for?

I will accept that it is not important to you, but not to GoI or to tax payers. The government has already made an initial investment to produce 50 tanks per year, and it is not going to invest more to produce 100 tanks at one go, and then waste the infrastructure.

Same will be true for other vendors too in private sector and those being imported. They are not going to ramp up for production to end in one year and they cannot recover those investments.

[rohitvats]

This new order is great news indeed for several reasons

- that DRDO has designed a product that beats the one currently in service
- that Army is mature enough to take back their original opinion and give their support instead of sticking to it for prestige reasons.
- that we have a system that puts pressure on DRDO and not dumps anything and everything on Army / iAF just because it is local, unlike in some countries

OK. So we have another "consolation prize" argument here...

As for the points raised by you:

(a) The very tanks which thumped T-90 were capable of doing so in 2006-2007-2008-2009. How come IA suddenly discovered that Arjun is good? What do Arjun's in 2010 have which they did not 2005 onwards?
(b) Mature decision? Forcing one's hand is more like it...wait till this story gains traction in general media and then see the fun. I'm waiting for the MOD reply to PSCD when the next one convenes. Also, what explanation IA gives for ordering 124 Arjun only...
(c) Dump a system on IA? While DRDO is guilty as charged in many a goof ups, not on this brother...not by a long margin. It is IA which has played God here....

This is not the time to complain about only 124, I am pretty sure if Arjun is cheaper and better Army will order more if only they can be produced faster. It puts enough cash in the research team's hands to make incremental improvements along the way...I only wish it was 144 ( 72 x 2)

And how did you figure out that Arjun is not better? This when even MOD has said as far back as 2006 that firepower and accuracy of Arjun is superior to T-90 and T-72?

And as for cheaper, ever heard of economies of scale? DRDO is on record to say that minimum run required is 300 for domestic production of MTU Engine...till then it will be imported. Are these basic things difficult to understand? Oh! and in case you've missed the Ajai Shukla's article on T-90 - please read up on how the T-90 is going to end up costing more than Arjun as and when the bells and whistles are added to it....and the fact that price of Arjun is going to come down.

And what has domestic production got to do with order size? Assuming the production rate of Avadhi is constant, does the order of lesser number or in piecemeal somehow cushions against the slow rate of induction? Or larger order size has negative effect and reduces the pace of induction? Is the answer to the problem of production rate ordering lesser numbers or ramping up the production capacity?

[Sanku]

I will accept that it is not important to you, but not to GoI or to tax payers. The government has already made an initial investment to produce 50 tanks per year, and it is not going to invest more to produce 100 tanks at one go, and then waste the infrastructure.

No that is clearly not what I said, what I said is completely different.
1) Adding sunk development costs to that of making and keeping a production line is not done. We should consider development costs as sunk and look at making costs alone. Why burden the beast?
2) GoI must fix the issue of low output from Avadi, including increasing the number of lines. The long term induction plan is purely a MoD exercise. Once IA has given a go ahead for Arjun (as seen by the current order) and passed on its test results, the ball is firmly in MoD court to look at what it can do to quickly give IA as many updated tanks as can be given.

IA has been asking for updated tanks for ages, it has tons of completely obsolete tanks which need to be removed. Why would IA not love 500 Arjuns today instead of the Vijayanata's it holds in reserve and move the really old T 55/T 72 to reserves?

IA is not the bottle neck in the picture, never has been.

[Sanku]

Give order for 124 tanks and blame Avadi for not producing it in 2 years....wonderful
Now its the fault of Avadi.
Or should Avadi produce 100 tanks per year with the 124 tanks order?

Yes it has been to great degree, it is supposed to have a 50 tank a year line. Why is it strange to blame it if does not produce 124 tanks in 2 1/2 years? Sorry this thread has too little knowledge and too much opinion.

And dont any one tell me that OFBs and DPSUs run on economic argument.

[Sanku]

(a) The very tanks which thumped T-90 were capable of doing so in 2006-2007-2008-2009. How come IA suddenly discovered that Arjun is good? What do Arjun's in 2010 have which they did not 2005 onwards?

Actually Rohit, that is a very good question but yet another which has been answered many times.

In this period, Avadi learnt how to make Arjun's with the needed quality.

The manufacturing was shot. This is documented, and Avadi was blamed by the parliamentary board.

Also, what explanation IA gives for ordering 124 Arjun only...

Again a simple and logical answer. You have not looked at that either.

[Sanku]

I love how Ajai Shukla is running around trying to claim credit -- as if any one in GoI cared for his penny pieces in BS at all.

It was ALWAYS going to be the case that GoI would keep the Arjun line at Avadi running once it managed to actually make the tanks.


Now Ajai Shukla will claim credit for sun rising in the east tomorrow.

Pompous ass -- always was one -- for or against Arjun.

[rohitvats]

Updates from news paper -- so far 75 Arjuns have been delievered, the current order is expected to be met in mid 2011.

<SNIP>

As per the latest PSCD Report (15th April 2010),the order for indented Arjuns would have been completed by end March 2010.

[Suppiah]

wrong post..deleted

[putnanja]

1) Adding sunk development costs to that of making and keeping a production line is not done. We should consider development costs as sunk and look at making costs alone. Why burden the beast?

so you want to pay development costs for private sector but not for GoI organizations? strange logic.

2) GoI must fix the issue of low output from Avadi, including increasing the number of lines. The long term induction plan is purely a MoD exercise. Once IA has given a go ahead for Arjun (as seen by the current order) and passed on its test results, the ball is firmly in MoD court to look at what it can do to quickly give IA as many updated tanks as can be given.

IA has been asking for updated tanks for ages, it has tons of completely obsolete tanks which need to be removed. Why would IA not love 500 Arjuns today instead of the Vijayanata's it holds in reserve and move the really old T 55/T 72 to reserves?

IA is not the bottle neck in the picture, never has been.

NOPE!! IA said it wants 124, not MoD. IA has to specify how many tanks it wants over a period of time. How does MoD know the operational requirement to order x number of items? Where do they pull the numbers from?

IA: We need some tanks
MoD: OK, we will buy 1600 of those
IA: BTW, Arjun too looks ok
MoD: OK, have 124 more
IA: How are you deciding on the numbers
MoD: Don't you see the magic ball on my table??

IAF: We need MRCAs.
MoD: OK, 124 sounds like a good number, go and shortlist two-three and we will decide.
IAF: BTW, we need some LCAs too
MoD: Ok, you can have 20. And you will also get some PAK-FA and C-17s, will let you know before delivery. Please be home to sign the receipt.

IN: I need some submarines and scorpene fits the bill
MoD: Ok, here buy half a dozen, u happy? Let me check if I get one free if I buy 6.

[Suppiah]

What has gone wrong? You are reading things in the post that I never said, let alone meant..suggest read it again carefully..

(a) The very tanks which thumped T-90 were capable of doing so in 2006-2007-2008-2009. How come IA suddenly discovered that Arjun is good? What do Arjun's in 2010 have which they did not 2005 onwards?

I have been reading that there has been constant feedback, improvements and changes along the way. The flipping point was the recent trials. If nothing has changed in four years and it still means the recent trails produced results that were either not produced earlier or there has been some frustration with the other option - T90.

(c) Dump a system on IA? While DRDO is guilty as charged in many a goof ups, not on this brother...not by a long margin. It is IA which has played God here....

I merely said / meant that some countries force their PSU products on customers but luckily in India we have robust noisy / slow system but it works better. Don't know where you read that I said DRDO is dumping stuff.

And how did you figure out that Arjun is not better? This when even MOD has said as far back as 2006 that firepower and accuracy of Arjun is superior to T-90 and T-72? .

Again, what I said was Army will buy it if cheaper and better. Not that it is or it is not. I do not know, but I trust IA to know it when they see it. After all they get to buy other gadgets/toys with the money saved, they are not fools.

Is the answer to the problem of production rate ordering lesser numbers or ramping up the production capacity?

I am not against that option, that is not IA's call that is MOD/DRDOs based on their confidence level in selling the output.

......

Let us operate under the assumption that IA/IAF/IN etc., are essentially safeguarding their interest which also happens to be our defense interests and would not deliberate sabotage a good project/product when they see it.

We need a system that gives competing and conflicting view points to reconcile themselves and for facts to speak loud. That has happened here with this whole Arjun saga. Let us move on...

[Thomas_S]

IA has been asking for updated tanks for ages, it has tons of completely obsolete tanks which need to be removed. Why would IA not love 500 Arjuns today instead of the Vijayanata's it holds in reserve and move the really old T 55/T 72 to reserves?

IA is not the bottle neck in the picture, never has been.

Actually love might be there....only thing missing are the orders...
Meanwhile the lady next door(Tin Can clad...) is getting all the orders......

[arnab]

Updates from news paper -- so far 75 Arjuns have been delievered, the current order is expected to be met in mid 2011.

<SNIP>

As per the latest PSCD Report (15th April 2010),the order for indented Arjuns would have been completed by end March 2010.

And this was the Government's response to the Parliamentary Committee Report on Arjun

Recommendation (Para No. 4.45)
The Committee are perturbed to note that Government of India
accorded clearance for the development of an indigenous Main Battle
Tank (MBT) Arjun in May 1974. Even after the lapse of more than
34 years, the nominated agency of DRDO could not execute the mission
so far. Inordinate delay has escalated the original cost of MBT project
from Rs.15.50 crore in 1974 to Rs. 306 crore in 2005. The Committee
are surprised to note that neither the execution agency of DRDO or
the certifying agency Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) are
taking responsibility for the inordinate delay and quantity in production
of MBT Arjun. Out of 124 ordered for tanks for the users, only
15 tanks have been produced by the Heavy Vehicle Factory, Avadi.
Therefore, the Committee desire that the Ministry of Defence should
think seriously as to how to comply Arjun’s requirement in a time
bound manner.

Reply of the Government

The project for the design and development of Main Battle Tank
(MBT) Arjun was approved by CCPA in its meeting held on 26 March
1974, in order to give the required indigenous cutting edge to our
mechanized forces. Fifteen pre-production series of Arjun tanks
developed by DRDO are in service with one squadron of 43 Armoured
Regiment of Army.
Army HQ placed an indent for 124 MBT Arjun on Ordnance
Factory Board (OFB) in March 2000. The first 15 Nos. MBT Arjun are
being produced as Limited Series Production (LSP) tanks. Army has
planned to carry out extensive exploitation of these tanks through
Accelerated User Cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) before Heavy Vehicle
Factory (HVF) is accorded clearance for the bulk production of the
remaining tanks.
Government sanction for creation of infrastructure for production
of MBT Arjun was accorded in May 2002 with a total outlay of
Rs. 100 crore (65 crore for Ordnance Factory, Medak and 35 crore for
HVF, Avadi). The infrastructure is in place with effect from June 2006
which includes the following :—
(i) Assembly line
(ii) oTols, fixture and material handling facilities
(iii) Pe-rfitment check facilities.

The production of MBT Arjun is regularly monitored through the
quarterly Working Group Meetings held under the Chairmanship of
Director General Mechanized Forces (DGMF) and the Steering
Committee Meetings held under the Co-chairmanship of Secretary (DP)
and SA to RM. Hon’ble RURM reviewed the production of MBT Arjun
in July 2006.
HVF Avadi has completed the assembly of 53 tanks. Out of these,
5 tanks have been handed over to the Army for user trials which
were successfully completed in June 2006. Defects noticed during the
trials have been rectified.
Nine tanks were tendered for Joint Receipt Inspection (JRI). Army
has completed the JRI of 5 tanks and the JRI of next 4 tanks is
underway. It has been decided that all the 9 tanks would be issued to
Army simultaneously and Army would undertake AUCRT on 2 tanks.
The production target for year 2007-08 is 32 tanks, thus the
cumulative total at end of year 2007-08 is likely to be 85 tanks.
Production of remaining 39 tanks is likely to be completed during
2008-09. Raksha Mantri is periodically reviewing the production
schedule of MBT Arjun.

[Austin]

I love how Ajai Shukla is running around trying to claim credit -- as if any one in GoI cared for his penny pieces in BS at all.

It was ALWAYS going to be the case that GoI would keep the Arjun line at Avadi running once it managed to actually make the tanks.


Now Ajai Shukla will claim credit for sun rising in the east tomorrow.

Pompous ass -- always was one -- for or against Arjun.

Jurnos any where are like that only they need to create a perception that it was their story that was the turning point and that raises their credibility of the jurno , the media he represents and editor.

No point in blaming him , let him enjoy his moment of glory.

Mean while yes I do agree it could be the Mk1 with some improvements , I am checking it with some one on this.

I am a bit skeptical that Avadi can produce 50 tanks in a year working in two shift , the 30 tank in single shift looks more reasonable . What was the best production run for the first batch of Arjun in any year ?

[putnanja]

been completed by end March 2010.

And this was the Government's response to the Parliamentary Committee Report on Arjun

Recommendation (Para No. 4.45)
The Committee are perturbed to note that Government of India
accorded clearance for the development of an indigenous Main Battle
Tank (MBT) Arjun in May 1974. Even after the lapse of more than
34 years, the nominated agency of DRDO could not execute the mission
so far. Inordinate delay has escalated the original cost of MBT project
from Rs.15.50 crore in 1974 to Rs. 306 crore in 2005. The Committee
are surprised to note that neither the execution agency of DRDO or
the certifying agency Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) are
taking responsibility for the inordinate delay and quantity in production
of MBT Arjun. Out of 124 ordered for tanks for the users, only
15 tanks have been produced by the Heavy Vehicle Factory, Avadi.
Therefore, the Committee desire that the Ministry of Defence should
think seriously as to how to comply Arjun’s requirement in a time
bound manner.

Reply of the Government

The project for the design and development of Main Battle Tank
(MBT) Arjun was approved by CCPA in its meeting held on 26 March
1974, in order to give the required indigenous cutting edge to our
mechanized forces. Fifteen pre-production series of Arjun tanks
developed by DRDO are in service with one squadron of 43 Armoured
Regiment of Army.
Army HQ placed an indent for 124 MBT Arjun on Ordnance
Factory Board (OFB) in March 2000. The first 15 Nos. MBT Arjun are
being produced as Limited Series Production (LSP) tanks. Army has
planned to carry out extensive exploitation of these tanks through
Accelerated User Cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) before Heavy Vehicle
Factory (HVF) is accorded clearance for the bulk production of the
remaining tanks.
Government sanction for creation of infrastructure for production
of MBT Arjun was accorded in May 2002 with a total outlay of
Rs. 100 crore (65 crore for Ordnance Factory, Medak and 35 crore for
HVF, Avadi). The infrastructure is in place with effect from June 2006
which includes the following :—
(i) Assembly line
(ii) oTols, fixture and material handling facilities
(iii) Pe-rfitment check facilities.

The production of MBT Arjun is regularly monitored through the
quarterly Working Group Meetings held under the Chairmanship of
Director General Mechanized Forces (DGMF) and the Steering
Committee Meetings held under the Co-chairmanship of Secretary (DP)
and SA to RM. Hon’ble RURM reviewed the production of MBT Arjun
in July 2006.
HVF Avadi has completed the assembly of 53 tanks. Out of these,
5 tanks have been handed over to the Army for user trials which
were successfully completed in June 2006. Defects noticed during the
trials have been rectified.
Nine tanks were tendered for Joint Receipt Inspection (JRI). Army
has completed the JRI of 5 tanks and the JRI of next 4 tanks is
underway. It has been decided that all the 9 tanks would be issued to
Army simultaneously and Army would undertake AUCRT on 2 tanks.
The production target for year 2007-08 is 32 tanks, thus the
cumulative total at end of year 2007-08 is likely to be 85 tanks.
Production of remaining 39 tanks is likely to be completed during
2008-09. Raksha Mantri is periodically reviewing the production
schedule of MBT Arjun.

So it is clear that the Army HQ placed the order and not MoD. People still argue that IA doesn't specify the numbers and only MoD decides that

[rohitvats]

Actually Rohit, that is a very good question but yet another which has been answered many times.

In this period, Avadi learnt how to make Arjun's with the needed quality.

The manufacturing was shot. This is documented, and Avadi was blamed by the parliamentary board.

QC issue? Which QC issue are you talking about? You make it sound as if the tank was falling apart. And which PSCD Report says that Arjun could not be evaluated because of QC issue? Did IA complain about QC when they tested the tanks in 2005 and reported on LRF issue? Or when they again tested the tank in 2006? Or before and after the AUCRT? And how come by 2006 the MOD was stating that firepower, mobility, protection and accuracy of Arjun was superior to T-90?

And secondly, what has QC got to do with inherent capability of tank? Did IA wait for T-90 to roll of from Avadhi to decide on the capability of T-90?

You're creating strawman here...

Again a simple and logical answer. You have not looked at that either

So, IA has placed a order for lesser numbers because of production bottleneck at Avadhi? OK. Educate me on something - how does placing piecemeal (let's say -124+124+124) address the issue of production and induction rate? And finally, where has the Army shown urgency on the lack of home production when evaluating the Arjun?

[rakall]

I love how Ajai Shukla is running around trying to claim credit -- as if any one in GoI cared for his penny pieces in BS at all.

It was ALWAYS going to be the case that GoI would keep the Arjun line at Avadi running once it managed to actually make the tanks.


Now Ajai Shukla will claim credit for sun rising in the east tomorrow.

Pompous ass -- always was one -- for or against Arjun.

Jurnos any where are like that only they need to create a perception that it was their story that was the turning point and that raises their credibility of the jurno , the media he represents and editor.

No point in blaming him , let him enjoy his moment of glory.

Mean while yes I do agree it could be the Mk1 with some improvements , I am checking it with some one on this.

I am a bit skeptical that Avadi can produce 50 tanks in a year working in two shift , the 30 tank in single shift looks more reasonable . What was the best production run for the first batch of Arjun in any year ?

If ASSukla now starts claiming credit for extra orders fro Arjun, then long-standing BRfites here should claim to be baaps of ASSukla & his buddy Aroor -- for whipping his insane opposition to Arjun and make him see some sense.. which eventually resulted in this turn-around of them becoming supporters of Arjun.

[putnanja]

STANDING COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE (2006-2007)

...
3.43 On the requirement of Tanks by the Army and the present position of orders received from the Army for Arjun Tank and also time schedule to deliver the same, the Ministry replied as under :-

“Total requirements of Army is about 3500 tanks. Army has placed an indent for manufacture of 124 MBT Arjun. Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) Avadi, a constituent unit of Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), has set up exclusively for Main Battle Tank (MBT), Arjun an assembly bay that has just started functioning. Once the activity picks up speed in this facility, HVF is confident to produce 50 Arjun tanks per year from the year 2009 onwards subject to continuous requirement by the user. T-90 tank is also being produced in the same factory under a separate production line.”
...

Please note that the MoD official is saying that the army placed the indent for 124 arjuns.

[Austin]

If ASSukla now starts claiming credit for extra orders fro Arjun, then long-standing BRfites here should claim to be baaps of ASSukla & his buddy Aroor -- for whipping his insane opposition to Arjun and make him see some sense.. which eventually resulted in this turn-around of them becoming supporters of Arjun.

Well sure BR'ites can also claim credit for this order and reforming Ajai and Shiv.

Infact Ajai jee has gone one step ahead and claimed that far more numbers of Arjun Mk2 will be procured much before work on Mk2 has started , so he can (and will ) rightfully claim credit if that happens.

[Sanku]

Actually love might be there....only thing missing are the orders...
Meanwhile the lady next door(Tin Can clad...) is getting all the orders......

This is strange, that statement is OBVIOUSLY incorrect. Yet everyone keeps repeating it as if its some mantra.

I am not picking on you but what is this great love for repeating blatantly incorrect statements over and over again in the forum.

A modicum of self control will do wonders.

[Sanku]

1) Adding sunk development costs to that of making and keeping a production line is not done. We should consider development costs as sunk and look at making costs alone. Why burden the beast?

so you want to pay development costs for private sector but not for GoI organizations? strange logic.

Why strange? Obviously I want and expect the GoI organizations to work differently -- they have a totally different charter.

I am not one of those who thinks Privatization is some how a magic bullet. GoI will do all the money sinking in and eco-system development before things can work.

I dont blame them for it either.

NOPE!! IA said it wants 124, not MoD. IA has to specify how many tanks it wants over a period of time. How does MoD know the operational requirement to order x number of items? Where do they pull the numbers from?

Good question. Do you know who SIGNS the capital acquisitions?

Do you know what is the maximum budget even the CHIEF can sign on?

The purchases are all MoD prerogative -- they take inputs from the army, but the decisions are ALWAYS theirs.

MoD: Ok, here buy half a dozen, u happy? Let me check if I get one free if I buy 6.

This is not how it works. At all.

[Sanku]

Infact Ajai jee has gone one step ahead and claimed that far more numbers of Arjun Mk2 will be procured much before work on Mk2 has started , so he can (and will ) rightfully claim credit if that happens.

Ajai ji deserves a No bull prize for this great prediction.


I will also make a fundamental prediction -- Sun will set in the west tomorrow. So there eat your hearts out.

[pralay]

Looks like some of our respected old people don't like ajay shukla at all.

if Ajay Shukla, Shiv Arur and Arjun Jingos on BRF were not there, Me and many junior members would surely think that Arjun is failed product and DRDO is just eating up tax-payers money.

But its efforts of Ajay, Shiv and our respected Arjun Jingos, which spread awareness about Arjun and made us aware about the reality that "Arjun is a superior" and our Mil-Complex can really deliver quality product.

Their articles and posts might not have affected the GOI decisions as you say, but they raised awareness about the ground reality for sure and we should be thankful to them for it.

Sanku and Rakall ji people have opposed as well as respected your opinions open-heartedly and enjoyed all the discussions so far. So there is no point in using bad words against Ajay shukla or Shiv or any other brother of ours. It will just spoil our discussion quality as well as the respect junior member give you.

[Sanku]

Actually Rohit, that is a very good question but yet another which has been answered many times.

In this period, Avadi learnt how to make Arjun's with the needed quality.

The manufacturing was shot. This is documented, and Avadi was blamed by the parliamentary board.

QC issue? Which QC issue are you talking about? You make it sound as if the tank was falling apart.

No Sir, I do not make it sound as if the tanks were falling aparts.

The only issue is the PSCD reports do say that in 2005-2006 there were QC issues -- to paraphrase "Avadi made the tanks and showed them to the press and promptly took them back inside after the ceremony since they were really not ready"

Look up the 2007 report. I have posted it before but you can see it again.

You can find all the issues listed there.

And how come by 2006 the MOD was stating that firepower, mobility, protection and accuracy of Arjun was superior to T-90?

Which it was. The problem in 2005s were NOT with the design but with manufacture at Avadi.

No conflict between the too

And secondly, what has QC got to do with inherent capability of tank? Did IA wait for T-90 to roll of from Avadhi to decide on the capability of T-90?

QC has nothing to do with the DESIGNED capability of a tank, but on the final actual product. Which at the end of LSP is the final mcCoy.

No but because T 90 is being made with Russian help, the first 600 are actually not even made in Avadi.

Arjun does not have this luxury.

You're creating strawman here...

No, sorry to say but this is a non glamorous but fundamental issue to actual product deployment. Reality check.

So, IA has placed a order for lesser numbers because of production bottleneck at Avadhi? OK.

Only partially.

But in addition IA does not need to place a bulk order at Avadi, the economics work very differently for a in house manufacture as compared to external purchase.

Educate me on something - how does placing piecemeal (let's say -124+124+124) address the issue of production and induction rate?

It has no impact, the issues of production are two fold
1) Actual production issues at Avadi
2) The numbers that a line can make

GoI needs to sort both these out.

And finally, where has the Army shown urgency on the lack of home production when evaluating the Arjun?

Not Army's charter by far -- if they say something they will be accused to being against Indian agencies, outside their charter totally.

What I am saying is that IA has done its part, if not amazingly well, fairly competently, the issues have and remain at the ham handed behavior of MoD.

There are four departments that need to come together to make Arjun (only one being IA), we need to remember that.

[Sanku]

Looks like some of our respected old people don't like ajay shukla at all..

We have had the pleasure of talking to shri Ajai Shukla on this very forum when he was telling us how DRDO is the lousiest org in the world and how Arjun is a dabba.

That man takes things to extreme to sensationalize, even today he is misleading many less informed people by presenting half baked stupid theories when the reality is simple, unglamorous and very boring.

[rakall]

Looks like some of our respected old people don't like ajay shukla at all.

if Ajay Shukla, Shiv Arur and Arjun Jingos on BRF were not there, Me and many junior members would surely think that Arjun is failed product and DRDO is just eating up tax-payers money.

But its efforts of Ajay, Shiv and our respected Arjun Jingos, which spread awareness about Arjun and made us aware about the reality that "Arjun is a superior" and our Mil-Complex can really deliver quality product.

.

The likes of JCage have been carrying the flag of "Arjun is superior" with solid literature from much much before than others did -- that too in face of stiff opposition & adverse public opinion stirred-up by the like of folks that are claiming to be messiahs now..

It was the solid, stoic effort of JCage, Viktor (ex-BR name), brutegorilla etc that put up solid rebuttal to the "Arjun is crap" stories/views that were tried out on BR & elsewhere.. that is when the said folks actually started digging up data & information and hence started coming out with a newer face with their "in(re)formed views"..

I cant immediatly find JC's exhaustive article on Arjun... But google for "Arjun - a Mighty warrior or a mere mortal" by viktor circa 2004. In the last paragraph viktor "predicts a bright future for Arjun" -- way back in 2004.

More important than those who ride along good times are those who standby in tough times.

[Austin]

Very true JC did a pioneering effort in debunking the myth , lies and other propaganda associated with Arjun he will be dearly missed by one and all at BRF.

[pralay]

The likes of JCage have been carrying the flag of "Arjun is superior" with solid literature from much much before than others did -- that too in face of stiff opposition & adverse public opinion stirred-up by the like of folks that are claiming to be messiahs now..

It was the solid, stoic effort of JCage, Viktor (ex-BR name), brutegorilla etc that put up solid rebuttal to the "Arjun is crap" stories/views that were tried out on BR & elsewhere.. that is when the said folks actually started digging up data & information and hence started coming out with a newer face with their "in(re)formed views"..

I cant immediatly find JC's exhaustive article on Arjun... But google for "Arjun - a Mighty warrior or a mere mortal" by viktor circa 2004. In the last paragraph viktor "predicts a bright future for Arjun" -- way back in 2004.

More important than those who ride along good times are those who standby in tough times.

Yeh it is true that those folks had opposite opinions that time, but they agree that they were wrong with that opinion, they reformed their opinion and joined the cause.

The people like JCage, Viktor and brutegorilla surely had put up solid rebuttal, but the new guys also joined them, they didn't say that "we will agree that Arjun is superior only if it beats t-90 in comparative trials" or "Arjun is superior only if GOI/IA/MOD orders more Arjuns".

They read and saw the ground realities and reformed/corrected their opinions.

Those old forum members for sure are the the first lights, but people like Shukla, Shiv and others took the realities to broader mass of people, who were like me, always thinking that Arjun is crap and DRDO cant deliver.

And why I thought that Arjun is crap and DRDO cant deliver?
Because I like many others never read any good about Arjun and DRDO etc. in media. And to be frank only selected group of peoples read and join forums. So I feel that these guys Ajay, Shiv and our BRF Arjun jingos like those old people like JCage and Viktor, are equally creditable for keeping up with the campaign.

I hope instead of fighting for credits more Jingos will come forward and support Desi products and development.

btw. I didn't find anything in Ajay's blog that claims for the turnaround. What exactly did make you think that he is making claims ?

[vina]

QC has nothing to do with the DESIGNED capability of a tank, but on the final actual product. Which at the end of LSP is the final mcCoy.

Yawn.. In addition to being Google challenged, it is obvious that our dear tank expert is basic engineering and product management challenged as well. . Hmm. Maybe forgot to Google for words like TQM, Six Sigma , Design for Quality and all the rest of it , and still insist on a ignorant blooper like "QC has nothing to do with the DESIGNED capability ,but on final actual product" (as if, without designing in quality, the final product will magically have "quality", even if the manufacturing is perfect)

the first 600 are actually not even made in Avadi.

Ah, go ahead now and insist, that if you are just assembling out of CKD, the "quality" is assured as if by magic because the components have "quality"

No, sorry to say but this is a non glamorous but fundamental issue to actual product deployment. Reality check.

Reality check indeed. Oh well.

[Philip]

After 34 yrs. we cannnot build Arjun in any worthwhile quantity on time.What is the ood of developing any weapon system if we cannot rpioodfice it.Even ther Chinese and pakis can manage to do it ,why cannot we.The babus behind the farce should be held accountable,demoted,pensions cut or simply kicked out VRS compulsorily.

[Carl_T]

Are there any plans to sell this bad boy to other nations?

[Austin]

Cool - about the T-95. (Do you know why? Funds? Out of pure curiosity, are they thinking of something else. They seem to have just one tank company now, right?)

Well for one T-90 upgrades are considered adequate to take care of perceived threat from competitors ( read US ) , the Russians would like to think the T-90 broadly matches M1A1 and the major upgrade Burlak with BMS ,Long Rod and other ding dong will match M1A2 , so the incentive to fund a new tank is not there ( consider the fact that they have multiple more other important program to fund so a decison was made to cancel many program besides T-95 that they think is not important at the moment )

BTW do you see any threat in Europe which would justify funding production of a new tank ?

If indeed US produces M1A3 in distant future then we could see T-95 resurrecting in some avatar

Just found some interesting conversation between Sengupta and the famed Vasiliy Fofanov on Arjun versus T-90 link

Another one may be PR from the owner T-90S MBT's Combat Effectiveness Flowcharts

[Nayak]

Let me press a button of pessism here. DRDO has done fine job improving Arjun in tranches. Govt has placed a firm order of additional 124 tanks. What is the guarantee that the unionised twits in AVADI will not muck up in the build quality and final finished product ? Already enamored with sh!t-tin 90s, the IA will coolly lay the blame at the doorstep of DRDO and demand more tin cans. Cant we rope in the pvt sector for all critical systems and testing? With a fine blemishless reputation of AVADI it hardly inspires confidence in these fine and upstanding gentlemen kept alive by the benevolent govt and generous taxpayers.

[Kartik]

quoting from Tarmak's blog

By Sitanshu Kar, Spokesperson, MoD

Taking their defence cooperation a step higher, India and Oman have agreed to accelerate their cooperation in maritime security and regional security issues. The decisions were taken at the bilateral discussions between the visiting Defence Minister Shri AK Antony and his Oman counterpart Sayyid Badr bin Saud bin Harib Al Busaidi at Muscat today...

...Giving details of the measures taken by New Delhi, Shri Antony said, to protect Indian flag ships and Indian citizens employed in sea- faring duties, Indian Navy had commenced anti-piracy patrols in the Gulf of Aden from October 2008...

..The two sides also discussed a number of issues- bilateral and regional. Referring to Afghanistan, Shri Antony said, ‘ we have a common aim in Afghanistan and that is to ensure that it does not become a base of safe haven for terrorists again...

...In this connection, he recalled the first ever air exercise ‘Eastern Bridge’ in October 2009. Royal Air Force of Oman pilots have attended the Jaguar Simulator training in India in the past and similar training is planned this year also. ‘We have laid the foundation and should now work towards adding more content to our defence cooperation’, he said.

Shri Antony invited his counterpart to attend Aero-India in February 2011. The delegation of Shri Antony included the defence secretary Shri Pradeep Kumar, Indian Ambassador to Oman Shri Anil Wadhwa, CISC Air Marshal SC Mukul, DGMF Lt Gen Dalip Bhardwaj, Air Marshal A Raha and Rear Admiral LVS Babu.

Shri Antony also called on the Sultan of Oman who is also the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces and the Prime Minister of the country, Qaboos bin Said bin Thaimour Al Said.
Last evening, shortly after his arrival in Muscat, Shri Antony attended a dinner hosted for prominent members of Indian Community by the Ambassador. Oman is now home to nearly half a million expatriate Indians. Speaking at the function, Shri Antony said his visit will consolidate further the existing ties between India and Oman. He said India will expand its cooperation with Oman in all fields.
Answering a query from the audience, Shri Antony said the desire of the Indian Army to induct 124 more MBT Arjun in its armoury was its own after the comparative trials. He expressed happiness that after many years MBT has become a reality and said ‘it has come of age’. DGMF Lt Gen Dalip Bhardwaj, who was also at the reception, endorsed the views of Shri Antony.

[Venkarl]

I saw the news of another 124 arjuns in BRF news section and felt very happy and thought a more informed and knowledgeable discussion with celebrations would prevail in this thread and read the whole thread.....sad to see people{especially experts} pondering over points to nitpick each other to satisfy their ego levels...the very same mentality exists in our system and that is the reason we see delays in almost all projects.....negativity weighs more than positivity in an average Indian brain...just repeating what Shri Kalam said.

Just said what I felt after reading this thread...did not mean to offend anyone.

Venkat

[msdogra]

Does anybody know what improvements/features will be added to Arjun MK II?

[Philip]

Yes,a new label,Arjun MK-2!

[Rahul M]

Yes,a new label,Arjun MK-2!

what is that supposed to mean ?