Indian Space Program Discussion

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 12 May 2010 12:16

This might have been a general observation from ISRO. Assuming something like 4 parts out of 10 supplied is failing QC is much worse than if 9 or even all 10 conforming to the standards. It was not about costs - but time.

If quality tests had not been proper, they wont have the success rates that they do now. But my question was, post nuclear deal, is ISRO trying to foreign content into our space programs? why are they saying this now?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 May 2010 14:56

Spacecraft components will have to be rad hardened, I don't think this is required for launcher electronics. This might be an area where we are lacking.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 12 May 2010 19:05

ramana wrote:Krish, Is it feasible to add the cryo stage to the PSLV? or not due to size or load limitations?

Cryogenic upper stages are generally used boost GTO performance of the LV (not that they do not help LEO performance). Now, medium-low lift launch vehicles are generally aimed at LEO launches. If they have a requirement of greater payload capacity to LEO there are other cheaper methods like adding extra boosters, increasing stage performance etc. for boosting LEO performance than adding a new cryogenic upper stage.

Even if a cryogenic upper stage is added to PSLV, the boost in GTO performance would not be enough to accommodate modern geostationary satellite which weigh upwards of 2 tons. If increased capacity for LEO is the aim than there are cheaper and simpler methods than cryogenic stages. We can see that this exactly what ISRO has done with PSLV upgrades.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 12 May 2010 19:53

But in the PSLV cryo configuration, we should be able to have a 2.5 ton satellite for SSO, so it has its own use

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 12 May 2010 20:04

Dumb layman's question

: with the reference to the questionable quality of some Indian electronic components, is there a possibility that the 3rd stage sequencer of the GSLV Mark 2 could have failed, leading to non-ignition??

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 12 May 2010 20:45

symontk wrote:But in the PSLV cryo configuration, we should be able to have a 2.5 ton satellite for SSO, so it has its own use

Now, what is the requirement of a 2 ton payload capacity to SSO ? The satellites launched into that orbit are generally for earth observation and scientific purposes and comparitively weigh less. Communication satellites are ones which are the heaviest and they use GEO , GSO, LEO etc.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 13 May 2010 06:54

You can launch multiple satellites in a single go

Cost reduction from less number of launches / preparation

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 May 2010 08:15

Is it true that in India radiation hardening is done / tested by blasting the chips and circuit boards with a heavy dose of radiation and then picking the surviving ones. I was told that >90% chips fail to survive.

There is some problem / bottleneck in manufacturing where radiation hardening is difficult in India. Is this the result of the tech denial regime where important coatings etc are not available to India?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 15 May 2010 06:31

India Asks US for Help in Manned Space Programme
Business Standard

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 15 May 2010 07:03

Gagan wrote:Is it true that in India radiation hardening is done / tested by blasting the chips and circuit boards with a heavy dose of radiation and then picking the surviving ones. I was told that >90% chips fail to survive.

There is some problem / bottleneck in manufacturing where radiation hardening is difficult in India. Is this the result of the tech denial regime where important coatings etc are not available to India?

It is true that mil grade electroncis were tested against high intensity EM waves. For this purpose BARC developed equipment is used by all agencies from DRDO to ISRO.

But never heard of issues surrounding the development of hardened electronics,which means every thing developed in home passed all the stringent testing procedures.

In the early 2000`s there were many lip movements regarding a variant based on KALI-200/KALI-1000 for the testing of electronics to be used on satellites.Also said at the time,that the same procedures be used for electronics used on Aircraft and other missiles used for strategic purposes.

But ISRO semiconductor fab has been consistently sucessfull in providing such high grade chips for both strategic and civilian purposes.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 15 May 2010 07:38

If not already please take a look at this
http://www.scl.gov.in/

Doesnt look like they do ATE testing of fabricated parts using hp/agilent 3070(??). Anyways something of interest under design activities

Besides ASICs, Application Specific Standard Products (ASSP) like data converters, codec, tone ringer, speech circuit, DTMF generator, single chip telephone, energy meter (1 phase and 3 phase), Hearing Aid, etc were designed and developed. MANAS (Multiplexed Analog Signal processor) was designed, characterized and mass produced for ALICE experiment conducted at CERN, Geneva.

curious what MANAS does
http://www.sclindia.com/scl_society/pdf ... l1_no1.pdf

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 15 May 2010 10:49

Juggi G wrote:India Asks US for Help in Manned Space Programme
Business Standard

Owr indijineshnesh needs phoren help to work onlee

Gyle_S · Post by **Gyle_S** » 15 May 2010 12:28

@ Gagan
With my limited knowledge: ELDR (extremely low dose rate) affects chip characteristics differently. So tests done by firing huge radiation dose do not accurately reflect the Total Ionization tolerance (and hence the life of a particular IC in say a satellite). Do we have machines and time for ELDR testing of chips and boards in India? Some of these tests may run for years.

I believe Indian space agencies actively buy RadHard ICs from US suppliers. I know many semiconductor companies are pitching them RadHard ICs. They also buy RadHard boards from US and EU suppliers.

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 15 May 2010 16:08

India Asks US for Help in Manned Space Programme

Ajay Shukla is wrong!!!...............................RD-170, RD-180 are not decommisioned "rocket - missiles", they are rocket engines.
The difference is like a car engine and a transport truck...

RD-170 was devoloped for energia project while RD-180 was licensed for USE to United States by Russians(post cold war) for usage in Atlas 2, Atlas 3, Atlas 5 rockets.

ofcourse, anyone who know how to work the google would have known this.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 15 May 2010 18:18

RD -170/180 some of the most powerful semi cryogenic rocket engines using RP-1 and liquid oxygen to generate close to 200 ton thrust and I think used in Energia class of boosters

Ajoy shukla does not mush about launchers -no point giving him much attention any way -he can not even differentiate beytween an engine and rocket

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 15 May 2010 18:20

he development of RD-170 and RD-171 engines for first stages of the “Energia” and “Zenit” launch-vehicles correspondlingly was began in 1976. Their development became qualitatively new step in creation of powerful liquid propellant rocket engines. Most powerful in the world four-chamber LPRE has the best level of parameters and characteristics for engines of the given class, operates on ecological clean propellant components: liquid oxygen and kerosene. RD-170 engine for the “Energia” launch-vehicle is intended for reusable operation and is certificated for 10-multiple use. One of the engines was tested at a fire bench up to 20 times. The engine is characterized by high operational reliability, can be repaired and controlled, has a large margin on life operation (not less 5). The engine thrust vector control is carried out with creating the chambers unique bellows gimball joint, operated in a zone of a high-temperature gas flow. The engines have passed about 900 fire tests with common running time more than 100000 sec. The maiden launch of the “Zenit” launch-vehicle with RD-171 engine was carried out in April, 1985. In 1987 and 1988 the launches of “Energia” launch-vehicles with RD-170 engines were conducted. Since 1999 the operation of RD-171 engines is prolonged in a structure of “Zenit 3SL” launch-vehicle under the “Sea Launch” program.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 15 May 2010 18:32

Shukla tends to screw every now and then-

and this should explain a lot

(The writer is in Florida at Boeing's invitation)

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 15 May 2010 18:49

I didn't think Ajai Shukla could be a someone who could come up with half-researched, one-sided articles.

The US is now considering using cheap Russian launches for sending its astronauts to the ISS.<---{no connection between the two}---> Russia has warehouses full of decommissioned missile rockets called the RD-170; these are re-engineered into RD-180 rockets, which cost a tenth of America’s.

RD-170 family are missile rockets!

I shall speak no more!

Anoop. A. wrote: RD-170 was devoloped for energia project while RD-180 was licensed for manufacture to United States by Russians(post cold war) for usage in Atlas 2, Atlas 3, Atlas 5 rockets.

Actually, all of the Rd-180 engines used on Atlas-3,5 (Atlas-2 wasn't using Rd-180) are manufactured by Energomash in Russia.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 May 2010 20:17

Sanjay M wrote:
Juggi G wrote:India Asks US for Help in Manned Space Programme
Business Standard

Owr indijineshnesh needs phoren help to work onlee

That may be another way to beat the dual use export control laws for overall upgrade of all systems.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 15 May 2010 23:48

Some people will see a military use in anything:

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 16 May 2010 00:16

Award for ISRO's Antrix Corporation

ANTRIX Corporation Ltd., ISRO has been conferred with the most prestigious Globe Sustainability Research Award 2010 by the Globe Forum, Stockholm, Sweden. Globe award is an international award founded by Globe Forum, with the purpose of fostering sustainable development in the society. The award was conferred on ANTRIX for its outstanding contribution to improve sustainable livelihoods amongst rural poor while reducing their vulnerability to climate risks. ANTRIX, ISRO demonstrated the use of space technology and Information Technology (IT) solutions to effectively reach out to grassroots through Sujala Watershed development programme in Karnataka which was implemented during 2002–09 in five districts.
The Chairman of the Jury that selected Antrix Corporation for this prestigious award, Prof Mohan Munasinghe, Winner of Nobel Peace Prize 2007 and Vice-Chair of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), opined that ANTRIX Corporation Ltd. fully deserved the Globe Sustainability Award for its exceptional contribution through innovative use of space technology for Watershed development in India, which has yielded significant benefits with respect to all the three aspects of sustainable development – economic, social and environmental.
At a function organised today (May 14, 2010) at Antariksh Bhavan, the headquarters of ISRO, senior state government officials including present and previous commissioners of the Watershed Development Department, Government of Karnataka involved in Sujala project were felicitated by Dr K Radhakrishnan, Chairman, ISRO/ Secretary, Department of Space and Shri S V Ranganath, Chief Secretary, Govt. of Karnataka.

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 16 May 2010 02:00

KrishG wrote:
Anoop. A. wrote: RD-170 was devoloped for energia project while RD-180 was licensed for manufacture to United States by Russians(post cold war) for usage in Atlas 2, Atlas 3, Atlas 5 rockets.
Actually, all of the Rd-180 engines used on Atlas-3,5 (Atlas-2 wasn't using Rd-180) are manufactured by Energomash in Russia.

Yup, its licensed for USE, not MANUFACTURE........my mistake, changes made to previous post.

RD-180 were used as replacement engines in ATLAS 2A rockets, redesignated ATLAS 2R (R for Russian), which was ultimately renamed ATLAS 3.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 16 May 2010 15:58

http://www.blonnet.com/2010/05/14/stori ... 291800.htm

GINS or the Global Indian Navigation System, when it happens, will give India an entry into the commercially and militarily powerful world of positioning and timing of all things on earth, sea, air or space.

GINS, it is learnt, is meant to be a constellation of at least 24 satellites arching across the globe at a distance of 24,000 km.

These will offer an Indian brand of precise location advices to those who want it, much like the US Global Positioning System.

The statutory filing for frequency spectrum of GINS satellite orbits, which projects India's requirement in a specific international space, has been done.

If IRNSS gets completed by 2014, IMVHO the first launches for GINS might start in 2015 .

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 May 2010 06:51

Boeing in talks to work with ISRO on moon mission

http://www.hindu.com/2010/05/17/stories ... 191300.htm

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 May 2010 12:13

NASA sidelining India's moon men?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 938601.cms

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 17 May 2010 12:42

according to the NASA claim, they found water on the moon when...

The find is based on preliminary data collected when the Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing Satellite, or LCROSS, intentionally crashed October 9 into the permanently shadowed region of Cabeus crater near the moon's south pole.

who knows if they are bull&hitting or if its real.

NASA finds 'significant' water on moon
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/space/11/1 ... index.html

srs · Post by **srs** » 17 May 2010 13:21

its natural, what else one can expect.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 20 May 2010 11:41

India to Launch First Military Use Satellite Under Defence Space Vision-2020

New Delhi (ABC Live): India has decided to launch its first dedicated military satellite by 2011 under Defence Space Vision-2020.

Information to this effect was shared by Ministry of Defence that Indian Space Research Organization has assured us the naval satellite, with an around 1,000 nautical mile footprint over Indian Ocean, will be launched as slated... The project cost is Rs 950 crore. IAF and Army satellites will follow in a couple of years.''

The dedicated satellite will help Navy network all its warships, submarines and aircraft among themselves as well as with operational centres ashore through high-speed data-links. "Maritime threats can then be detected and shared in real-time to ensure swift reaction,'' said an officer.

Another link

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 20 May 2010 11:50

ISRO kept quite on NASA's press conference. Is this some kind of spin control?

Chandrayaan finds evidence of water vapour on Moon

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 20 May 2010 19:25

India to Launch First Military Use Satellite Under Defence Space Vision-2020
http://abclive.in/abclive_national/firs ... -2020.html

This will be second sat for the Navy IIRC.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 27 May 2010 20:27

PSLV C-15 with Cartosat expected to be launched on July 22 nd

GSLV with Russian cryogenic acceleration block expected to be launched by end September

GSLV failure analysis is nearing completion

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 29 May 2010 20:51

‘Indian rockets to soon use atmospheric oxygen as fuel’

planned scramjet test:

“We will be doing a series of ground tests of the air breathing engine soon. We are planning an actual launch of a sounding rocket - ATV D02 - powered by such an engine by the end of this year,” an official of Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) told IANS on condition of anonymity.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 May 2010 00:00

Is this the same scramjet to have flown 1998, 2000, 2005, 2006, 2008?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 May 2010 00:59

This is probably the ATV test rocket they'll launch from Thumba?
This was a sounding rocket with a scramjet strapped on, they they flew a few months ago to test atmospheric flight. The engine ignition was not attempted then.

Maybe they plan to ignite the engine this time around.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 30 May 2010 01:20

scramjets have been under research since the 1950s by the Americans and Soviets

it's true that they have been much-delayed from their original promise

but at least if the ATV-D02 test fails, then it won't cost Rs-umpteen-crore-crore, nor will it take a full year to do another test flight

I think India should go in with the Russians for joint development of a hypersonic airliner, with an early model having perhaps a 150-seat capacity. The benefits to India's globalized economic strategy would be tremendous.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 May 2010 09:54

Last week the Project Mgr for X-51 came on NPR and announced the successful flight from Pt Mugu near LA.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 30 May 2010 10:05

Here are some drawings of GSLV MkII & MkIII

Shown beside them is the Soyuz for comparison.

Click on the image to enlarge them in greater detail.

(Btw, why is there a pencil-shaped rocket above the space capsule in both MkII & MkIII?)

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 30 May 2010 10:14

Sanjay M wrote:Here are some drawings of GSLV MkII & MkIII

Shown beside them is the Soyuz for comparison.

Click on the image to enlarge them in greater detail.

(Btw, why is there a pencil-shaped rocket above the space capsule in both MkII & MkIII?)

I think that is part of the crew module & the renditions are specific to human flight versions of GSLV..

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 May 2010 11:35

It is the escape mechansm from catastrophic launch failures.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 May 2010 12:02