Indian Naval Discussion

[jaladipc]

I think people are messing up with the name ER-SAM

But it was said on Missiles thread a year or so back, that DRDO is designing a naval variant of ABM.Also said that initially AAD will be put on ships with few modifications to take care of all threats including cruise missiles and in the later stages PDV will act as a prime weapon for defending purposes.

LR-SAM/MR-SAM will be the last JV with Israel to develop an air defence system.

DRDO is already working on ABM Phase-II where it is getting all radars and MCC onboard ships.
It was also stated clearly that P-15B will get theatre level defence which is going to be full airdefence including ABM.

[sum]

whatever be the details, the "SAM problem" right from 1km to 100km is finally under control and all it matters now is execution, funding, quality and speed of production, deployment and C3I integration. in 10 yrs all the old systems will hopefully be out (sa2/3/6/13/ sa-n-7) and all gaps filled in.

Amen to that. Now if only even the artillery saga could fall into place..

[sum]

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... sam-03461/

lots of details mixed up. at present , a 70km version of navy and a 100km version for army seems to be in development. IN would first push it in P15A and likely any new FFG class like P17A.

From the above link:

“Without naming the officer, Defence Research & Development Organisation chief M Natarajan told a press conference in Bangalore during the Aero India show last month that the officer had slashed his predecessor’s commitment to induct eight squadrons of Akash missiles. The officer had brought the figure down to just two squadrons. Akash has a range of 27km, while MRSAM has a range of about 70km.

A source in the defence ministry confirmed that even for the induction of these two Akash squadrons, the IAF put a condition that the DRDO must first agree to the MRSAM project…. ”[He] killed Akash, blackmailed us to agree to MRSAM, and is now working for them openly.”

Hasn't this situation also been rectified now with the forces adding to more than the original 2 squadrons?

[sathyaC]

ya the air force has ordered more of it and the army has ordered some , we can see some followup orders once i get the confirmation on it il let our people hear know

[jamwal]

The DRDO Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will be the ‘prime developer’ for the MR-SAM project, which will reportedly have a Rs 2,300 crore (INR 23 billion, $450 million) indigenous component within an estimated Rs 10,000 crore (INR 100 billion, about $1.93 billion) total. The 4-5 year project aims to provide India’s military with 9 advanced air defense squadrons, each with 2 MR-SAM firing units. Each unit, in turn, would consist of a command and control center, an acquisition radar, a guidance radar, and 3 launchers with eight missiles each. The total would therefore be 10 C2 centers, 18 acquisition radars, 18 guidance radars, and 54 launchers, armed with 432 ready-to-fire missiles.

Israel Aerospace Industries will be the key partner, and will contribute most of the applicable technology, just as Russia did for the BrahMos by offering its SS-N-26 Oniks missile as the base platform. As of its approval by the Cabinet Committee on Security in July 2007, MR-SAM surpasses the BrahMos project in size, and may be the largest joint defense development project ever undertaken between India and any other country.

India Defence reports that IAI and its Israeli partners have agreed to transfer all relevant technologies and manufacturing capabilities to India. Indian sources estimate a 4-year, $300 million System Design & Development phase to develop unique system elements, and produce an initial tranche of the land-based missiles.

What's the real Indian contribution in this project ?

[vic]

my understanding:
LRSAM - funded by IN - for IN only - 70 km range - barak8
MRSAM - land based for IAF/IA - I thought this was a 100km range missile !! looks bogus to me
ERSAM - imo this is the IAF/IA missile and will be navalised for P15B too
SRSAM - maitri (BEL + MBDA) cancelled
Spyder - derby + python - signed and deliveries due
Akash - multiple squadrons on order (MRSAM) - no word on Akash-ER (50km)

imo it is unlikely Akash-Er will be funded, instead Akash will be improved and tasked for the medium range 5-35km role
using a active seeker borrowed from Astra to make the radars less susceptible to arm attacks. new propellants and
wings might improve its range from 25km to 35km without drastic changes one hopes.

the ERSAM-1 will cover all from 25-100km

LRSAM-2 with new terminal kill vehicle (active) could be funded later to fill out the portfolio out to 150km (SM6ski)

My understanding:-

Both Spyder and Spyder MR have been ordered by two different contracts.

LRSAM - - barak8-funded by IN - for IN only - it was stated to be 60km range in official communications but now stated to be 70 km range
MRSAM - It was initially stated to be 70km for IAF but a poster on Keymags claims that it is programme which entails a family of missiles upto 350km range. A version of barak-2 with booster has been shown by Israel and I assume that MRSAM will be combination of series of diffferent missiles
ERSAM - imo this is the IAF missile and will be navalised for P15B too
SRSAM - maitri (BEL + MBDA) cancelled
Akash - multiple squadrons on order (MRSAM) - Akash 2 with longer range approved

But what about Manpads and VShorads???? Also what will be successor of Barak-1 for Anti-Anti Ship missile role? Barak-8 would seem to be too costly for this role?

[tsarkar]

a) Is the LR-SAM/Barak-NG going to be standard fit on large IN Ships?

Yes, it weighs only 275 kg vis-à-vis 690 kg Shitil and offers twice the range. It also does not require guidance radars, so saves weight of MR-90 Orekh radars. So it could be carried by any ship with standard displacement above 3000 tonnes. In calmer Mediterranean waters, smaller ships could carry it.

b) How will the density of Barak-NG differ from ship to ship?

48-64 on destroyers and 24-32 on frigates. Same as the present Shitil loadout, maybe additional incremental loadout because of weight savings.

c) Do the present FCS and Radars do justice to such a long range SAM?

No dedicated guidance radars are required unlike Standard SM-2 or Shitil. Elta 2248 AESA tracks target and feeds data to missile in LOBL. After launch, it feeds incremental updates via datalink. Terminal guidance via active seeker.

As for the bolded part:

a) Are P-15B going to be Indian Aegis?

P-15A with Elta 2248 will be Indian Aegis. However, Indian/Israeli requirements are different from US requirements, hence don’t expect a copy.

b) Has any long range radar or something like Aegis been shortlisted/will be shortlisted for this?

Elta 2248, also under joint development.

60-70 km range is projected design range, like projected LCA design weight of 5500 kg Actual range figures will be available once the missile has been fully tested.

Apparently adding a booster to the missile increases range by 30-50 km as per simulations. I dont know whether any tangible action has taken place on the extended range missile, other than calculated projections.

[Sumeet]

c) Do the present FCS and Radars do justice to such a long range SAM?

No dedicated guidance radars are required unlike Standard SM-2 or Shitil. Elta 2248 AESA tracks target and feeds data to missile in LOBL. After launch, it feeds incremental updates via datalink. Terminal guidance via active seeker.

Well LOBL is only possible in within visual range or short range combats. I haven't heard of LOBL facility being used for any long range combat. So I don't know what makes you say that.

As for the bolded part:

a) Are P-15B going to be Indian Aegis?

P-15A with Elta 2248 will be Indian Aegis. However, Indian/Israeli requirements are different from US requirements, hence don’t expect a copy.

b) Has any long range radar or something like Aegis been shortlisted/will be shortlisted for this?

Elta 2248, also under joint development.

Hmm what is portion of Radar is under development by Indian side or rather what is India's contribution ?

[Sumeet]

my understanding:
LRSAM - funded by IN - for IN only - 70 km range - barak8
MRSAM - land based for IAF/IA - I thought this was a 100km range missile !! looks bogus to me
ERSAM - imo this is the IAF/IA missile and will be navalised for P15B too
SRSAM - maitri (BEL + MBDA) cancelled
Spyder - derby + python - signed and deliveries due
Akash - multiple squadrons on order (MRSAM) - no word on Akash-ER (50km)

imo it is unlikely Akash-Er will be funded, instead Akash will be improved and tasked for the medium range 5-35km role
using a active seeker borrowed from Astra to make the radars less susceptible to arm attacks. new propellants and
wings might improve its range from 25km to 35km without drastic changes one hopes.

the ERSAM-1 will cover all from 25-100km

LRSAM-2 with new terminal kill vehicle (active) could be funded later to fill out the portfolio out to 150km (SM6ski)

According to most reliable source Def Ministry of India:

LR SAM is for IN
MR SAM is for IAF

They are two different projects and have been allocated separate funding. Other than this we have a deal for Spyder LLQRM/SR SAM.

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=55756&kwd=

Defence Research Development Organization (DRDO) has undertaken joint development of missiles, Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LRSAM) for Indian navy and Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) for Indian Air Force with M/s Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI), Israel. The cost of project for LRSAM is Rs. 2606.02 crore and cost of project for MRSAM is Rs. 10075 crore. Both the missiles being developed are comparable in performance and cost to missiles available in their class in the world market.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Asaduddin Owaisi in Lok Sabha today.

This is the "official" [as per info available in public domain] SAM development/acquisition plan for India in near future:
LR SAM for IN. Currently range is 70 kms.

For others:
AAD spin-off for ER SAM range upto 150 kms [Ashvin missile -- Please don't forget this !!! ]
MR SAM for IAF range upto some figure less than 70 kms
Akash for IAF/IA range upto 30 kms
Spyder for less than 1km to about 15 kms.

Well hopefully they go for newer versions that promise 100 kms + range for IN or may be Ashwini spin off can work wonders for IN ER SAM requirement.

[K_Rohit]

^^^^^^^^
Why should the cost of the LR-SAM be 1/5th of the MR-SAM? Does project cost refer to development cost or does it include the cost of the individual units?

Does this mean that the total production of LR-SAM will be very limited?

[Philip]

The ER SAM appears to be our version of the SM-3+ ABM system being used by the USN.Naval warships equipped with LR ABM missiles is currently one method of defendce against nuclear ballistic missiles especially in a forward deployment close to/off the enemy's coastline.where there is a greater chance of shooting down the misile in its boost phase.If developed successfully,it can play a vital role in India's missile defence against pak,if some of our warships are permamently stationed for such an eventuality.

[Austin]

The ER SAM and SM-3 are in different league . The ER SAM is much like Aster-30 with a longer range ( ~ 30 km longer ) , ER will have limited TBM capability. The geography of India is such that Naval ABM will have little value.

[tsarkar]

Sumeet,
Typically previous generation semi active or IR homers were free birds after launch. When their seekers detected reflected beams or engine heat from the target, they engaged.

The paradigm changed with datalink. The target can be designated before launch by feeding data to the missile, or after launch by the launch platform or another platform. LOBL has nothing to do with range, rather it further reduces datalink emissions, reducing susceptibility in a jamming environment. A missile can lock on before its onboard seeker locks on.

2248 and Barak-8 are co-development – each product needs the other. Though different companies manage the products, the two products are complementary. Elta 2244 joint development was mentioned in a Janes issue many years back. Elta mentions it’s a privately funded development. I am not aware of specific Indian contribution, other than funding as a part of Barak-8.

[Avik]

Question for tsarkar and all Naval Gurus...I had asked this question ealrier, but am looking for a more complete answer, if possible...


The question is on the induction and production schedule of capital warships of the IN over the next few years.
It appears that all the Shivaliks will be inducted by 2011; the three modified follow- on Krivaks will also have come by 2012; all the three Kolkata classes will be commissioned by 2014.
Now, given that the keel is yet to be launched for either the new Project 17 As and/or Project 15 Bs, the most optimistic dates for their commission (assuming these ships start building in 2010-11) will be atleast 2017.

So, essentially, there is a minimum 3 year gap (2014-17) when the IN will not be commissioning any capital warship (other than the aircraft carriers).

The above scenario is coupled with a situation when the Rajput class will be progressively decommissioned, and probably so will the Godavaris.
Hence, by around 2015-16, the INs principal surface combatants would consist of 3 Delhi Class + 3 Kolkata Class + 6 Mod Krivaks + 3 Shivaliks + 3 Brahmaputra class ships + 2-3 (Rajput/ Godavari class) = 20-21 warships.

Now, further, I would assume that by 2015-16, IN would allocate about 5 warships to each of the aircraft carrier groups. IN would also probably need to maintain warships on stations in the Northern and Western Arabian Sea (3) + Bay of Bengal (3) + Andamans (3) + Southern Arabian Sea/ Indian Ocean (3).

Assuming a 75% availability of ships for deployment (post maintenance, dry docking etc.), the minimum requirement in 2015-16 would be about 30 ships (translating into 23 ships available for deployment).

Now, as I have tried to reason, there appears to be a shortfall from the desired number of 30 to the available number, 20-21 ships , circa 2015-16.

So, how does the IN make up for the gaps? Is it ordering additional ships to plug the gaps between 2013-17 when no new ship (other than the carriers) will be inducted? And how is the IN planning its fleet configuration in the 2016-17 zone when 10 of the available 18 ships (principal surface combatants) will be deployed as aircraft carrier escorts ?

Also, pls let me know any fallacies in my assumptions, if any.

Thanks,

Avik

[Singha]

you have not counted the P28 corvettes. how many will be online by 2017 and what is the number on order?

in deep sea, outside shore based air threat these are the most important part of carrier escort (until we have SSNs for it)

[tsarkar]

Indian defence procurement is a complex process, with multiple entities, within the Navy itself, and in the ministry, shipyards, etc. All have their own agendas. Hence timely commissioning and decommissioning is never a smooth affair.

Case in point being bulk procurement of MiG-21, Petya corvettes and Osa boats and consequent bulk obsolescence. The sinking of INS Andaman is the result of this shortsighted policy.

http://indiannavy.nic.in/t2t2e/trans2em ... ndaman.htm

The Type 25, 25A and Project 28 Kamorta was a replacement of the Petya class. The last Petya was decommissioned 2003 and its replacement Project 28 will probably enter service 2013.

http://indiannavy.nic.in/t2t2e/trans2em ... ect_25.htm

Having said that, the numbers are adequate and necessary steps have been taken.

In terms of capital ships, 24 destroyers/frigates are required. So presently we have 3 Shivalik + 3 Talwar + 3 Delhi + 3 Brahmaputra + 3 Godavari + 5 Rajput + 3 Leander = 23.

In the near future, the Leanders will decommission while 3 Teg + 3 Kolkata will be added. I presume the earliest two Rajputs will also decommission since they haven’t received Barak + other upgrades. So 23 -3 +3 +3 -2 = 24

The modernized Rajputs and Godavari will serve until Project 15B and Project 17A commission. These will be 3+2 = 5 ships. They have received structural refits + Elta radar + Brahmos + Barak + AK-630 + OTO guns.

So the numbers will hover around 24. However capabilities will be significantly higher vis-à-vis older ships.

No more than three frigates are required to escort an aircraft carrier. 10 is not needed.

3 capital ships in Bay of Bengal is disproportionately high to the threat from Burma + Bangladesh. Four Kora / Kukhri are more than enough. Same for Andaman – 4-6 corvettes is more than enough, given the Indonesian Navy’s disposition. All these Navies are friendly with India – Eg Islander aircraft transfer to Burma.

If war breaks out and we need to cut off Chinese oil supplies, that could be done on the western coast itself. Similarly, fleet could be repositioned incase Chinese make a sortie via Malacca Straits, though its beyond their logistics capabilities even today to sustain a fleet so far and submarines are better suited for this role.

[Avik]

Thank you tsarkar, Singha !!

Your posts were very helpful.

[Singha]

per wiki, 4 P28 are on order with first IOC in 2012 and last optimistically in 2014. 12 are planned, so that leaves 8 in P28A class.

one would hope they install additional capacity to work in parallel and deliver the 8 in lots of 2 rather than 1. makes sense to do this
in GRSE itself than ramp up from scratch elsewhere.

P28x will be vital to hunt down hostile submarines.

we also need MCMV vessels - except for noises of a new EU class being license made in goa havent heard anything in 10 yrs.
if its anything the PN subs will do first, it is lay mines if they perceive the threat level from IN ASW ships as too high to launch
torpedo attacks. laying mines and firing SM39 exocets from 50km safe distance is going to be their major high percentage play activity.

[narayana]

Some good news about Groshkov

Gorshkov to be handed over to India by Dec '12

"There has been substantial progress since the last examination in September 2009. Around 99% of the structural work and almost 50% of the cabling work has been completed on the carrier. Almost all large-size equipment, like engines, diesel generators and the like, has been installed,'' said an officer.

[K_Rohit]

per wiki, 4 P28 are on order with first IOC in 2012 and last optimistically in 2014. 12 are planned, so that leaves 8 in P28A class.

one would hope they install additional capacity to work in parallel and deliver the 8 in lots of 2 rather than 1. makes sense to do this
in GRSE itself than ramp up from scratch elsewhere.

P28x will be vital to hunt down hostile submarines.

The P28 order is only for 4 units. Nothing beyond 4 has been ordered. It is speculated, discussed, etc. But not ordered. So, I would worry about putting any eggs in that basket.

[sugriva]

First pics of the Arihant courtesy Livefist

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/06/fi ... clear.html

[sathyaC]

feels proud to see HER

[sathyaC]

not very clear but we can hope we can get some more pictures

[shukla]

India’s Future Aircraft Carrier Force and the Need for Strategic Flexibility

A Three Carrier Fleet by 2020?

In less than a decade, India’s naval force structure will have undergone a seismic shift, able to continuously deploy carrier groups on both seaboards. In order for the Indian Navy to efficiently project both hard and soft power throughout the Indian Ocean Region, its commanders will need to display a degree of strategic flexibility by learning how to leverage the many uses of Indian’s new aircraft carriers. Only this way will they prove themselves to be the formidable force multipliers, both in peace and war, required to lead the Indian Navy into the 21st century.

[sombhat]

Is this Arihant, really? Where is the hump we were promised? It looks more like the Kilo. And what's with all the gold plating??

[SNaik]

Seems to have really limited bow sonar capacity, possibly this is for navigation and obstacle avoiding purpose only. Anaechoic coating looks to have caused some pain for builders. The hump is very low, if any. Let's wait for more pics including the aft section.

[Singha]

OMG!

for comparison here is a pic of LA class sub from same angle. the conning tower looks to be same size and front part about the same length and hull diameter. the rear part looks a bit longer but I could be mistaken.

http://www.ctf74.navy.mil/imagery/2008/ ... 7N-003.jpg
http://images.military.com/EQGpics/EQG_ ... N688_1.jpg

LA class specs is 110m long, 6000t surface, 6900t submerged and 10m diameter

the Arihant is likely similar size?

I think the USHUS sonar fits that form factor (cylindrical) on Kilo also. Rus is fielding its first spherical sonar on sverodbinsk
and they likely decided to run with ushus due to technology and space constraint...compared to 8 small vl tubes in LA, Arihant
might need a bigger missile section to permit devoting the entire bow to sonar.

[NRao]

Is this Arihant, really? Where is the hump we were promised? It looks more like the Kilo. And what's with all the gold plating??

Foto-i-shoped.

[Singha]

looks like snapped with a cellphone camera. a proper camera guy would have set exposure comp appropriately to deal with the bright backlighting.

well atleast its proved Arihant does not have the drain holes along the side for panda galley oarsmen seen in the Jin SSBN.

[sum]

well atleast its proved Arihant does not have the drain holes along the side for panda galley oarsmen seen in the Jin SSBN.

[maz]

Gurus, what's the name of the new EW /ESM atop the Molniyas and some other ships. They look like mushroom and they are spreading like mushrooms.

[Anujan]

Someone please enlighten me about the pros-cons of spherical sonar vs cylindrical ones. Also any comments on the Arihant's sonar? Is there a conformal array too?

[negi]

As per FAS

link: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/doc ... sw_sys.htm

Hydrophone array. These are the sensitive elements which detect the acoustic energy emitted from the target. Again, they are arranged into an array to improve the beamwidth. Common configurations are cylindrical or spherical. The cylindrical array operates at a fixed vertical angle, usually downward. The spherical array, which is common on submarines, has a much wider vertical field-of-view. Since the submarine may be below what it is tracking, the array must be able to look upwards to some extent. The large downward angles are only used for bottom bounce detection. Using a beamforming processor (described below) the field-of-view is broken down into individual beams in the vertical and azimuthal directions.

[negi]

Btw nice pictures, sail mounted diving planes and a subtle bulging of spine aft of the hull look all TFTA and contemporary unlike Chipanda's supmarines.

I guess she fits more into Ohio class role for the IN rather than the LA or even the Seawolf class, perhaps that explains the diving plane configuration as she won't be assigned escorting or even hunter killer missions. Her main job would be to serve as the third arm of our nuclear triad and hence would lurk at a safe stand off distance from enemy's submarine hunters waiting for missile launch codes in event of a nuclear war.

[SNaik]

Gurus, what's the name of the new EW /ESM atop the Molniyas and some other ships. They look like mushroom and they are spreading like mushrooms.

Could you give me a picture to see what exactly do you refer to? If you speak of 1241 Molniya, the topmost radome on the newer versions is Pozitiv radar.

[maz]

SNaik, please email me mmazumdar at hotml

[SSridhar]

India to discuss security ties with Seychelles

During talks with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Wednesday, the Seychelles President will discuss greater collaboration with the Indian Navy to overcome the threat of piracy which has badly impacted its economy, Foreign Office spokesperson Vishnu Prakash told journalists. Seychelles recently repelled two pirate attacks and has suffered a € 8 billion (over Rs. 40,000 crore) impact due to decline in tourism. Besides military hardware, India provides high-level expertise in the form of several specialists from the armed forces doing duty in Seychelles.

[Austin]

Russia to transfer its Nerpa nuclear sub to India in autumn 2010

Russia will transfer its Nerpa nuclear-powered attack submarine for a 10 year-lease to India in the autumn, the head of the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation has said.

"The training of the crew has been concluded, most of the tests have been carried out — everything is almost at the finish line," Mikhail Dmitriyev told journalists in New Delhi after a meeting of the Russian-Indian high-level supervisory committee on military and technical cooperation on Tuesday.

He said India would receive the K-152 Nerpa submarine in October or November 2010.

Dmitriyev also expressed hope that Russia and India would sign a contract on the joint development of a new fifth-generation fighter within the next three months.

The sides earlier agreed to develop both a single-seat and a two-seat versions of the aircraft, which would be most likely based on Russia's T-50 prototype fifth-generation fighter, by 2016.

[SNaik]

Damit.
The boat is ready. The crew is ready. What the hell makes them to delay for half a year again... Somebody needs a security clearance to work on it or similar silly stuff...

[parshuram]

Damit.
The boat is ready. The crew is ready. What the hell makes them to delay for half a year again... Somebody needs a security clearance to work on it or similar silly stuff...

I believe it will depart Russian shores soon and prob will take two - three months before it reach india...