Indian Army: News & Discussion

[Gaur]

Army will not fight Naxals
I am relieved because I was hoping for the worst.

[Raja Bose]

Misraji, On YouTube you might find some small videos here and there but I dont think there is any official public source of information for their physical training. Like I said, the amount of weight used for dead lift or bench press while important as strength building exercises, lose their utility in the type of situations the soldiers operate in. There it is all about endurance and mental alertness under heavy stress - basically a lean guy who can carry 50 kgs for 50 miles is stronger than a muscle bound guy who can carry 500 kgs for 50 meters. Muscle bound Kamandu jocks are more suitable for Hollywood, US Army recruitment posters and WWE wrestling matches.

[Misraji]

...There it is all about endurance and mental alertness under heavy stress - basically a lean guy who can carry 50 kgs for 50 miles is stronger than a muscle bound guy who can carry 500 kgs for 50 meters. Muscle bound Kamandu jocks are more suitable for Hollywood, US Army recruitment posters and WWE wrestling matches.

I guess. So is it fair to assume that Special Forces physical training is just an extended/tougher version of what is used for regular infantry guys, Bose saar ? I wish there were more focused information.

As an aside, I had spoken to a former Marine once, who said that apart from physical strength/stamina, it was also important to "look like a marine". Another marine had told me that for them to be promoted, they had to be able to meet certain physical strength benchmarks in terms of dead-lifts etc.

OTH, an IA infantry guy had non-chalantly remarked to me that most of their training was running around with their gears. Of course, they had combat training and all. What I got from the conversation, was that IA seemed to consider running as the primary means to increase the physical effectiveness of the soldier.

~Ashish.

[Misraji]

Army will not fight Naxals
I am relieved because I was hoping for the worst.

Err, I guess you mean "was hoping for the best, but expecting the worst" ...

~Ashish

[Raja Bose]

As an aside, I had spoken to a former Marine once, who said that apart from physical strength/stamina, it was also important to "look like a marine". Another marine had told me that for them to be promoted, they had to be able to meet certain physical strength benchmarks in terms of dead-lifts etc.

OTH, an IA infantry guy had non-chalantly remarked to me that most of their training was running around with their gears. Of course, they had combat training and all. What I got from the conversation, was that IA seemed to consider running as the primary means to increase the physical effectiveness of the soldier.

There you have it. So for Mr. Marine, "looking like a Marine" means looking all muscled and TFTA - for both Chinese and Amirkhan, projecting a TFTA image plays a major role. Ask that Marine how is his musharraf carted to battle and he will give you any number of mechanical options involving 6 tonner trucks, Hummers, Ospreys, Blackhawks, C130s etc. Ask that same Marine to accompany an Indian foot patrol in the jungles of NE or relieve a post in Siachen and he will fall unconscious on his musharraf by the wayside without his MREs and bottled mineral water. OTOH the IA chap will be perfectly at home with his heavy pack, meagre gur-chana rations and yet soldier on without a peep.

Muscle bulk never increases one's stamina - if anything it can severely decrease it. Zimble fizzyics onlee.

To use a non-Amirkhan example. Look up the story of the Bravo Two Zero patrol in 1991. Guess who died 1st? - the biggest baddest looking guy in the whole bunch. Guess who was the only one who escaped and trekked several hundred miles to freedom - one of the smallest, skinniest chaps in the group.

[svinayak]

As an aside, I had spoken to a former Marine once, who said that apart from physical strength/stamina, it was also important to "look like a marine". Another marine had told me that for them to be promoted, they had to be able to meet certain physical strength benchmarks in terms of dead-lifts etc.

Image making is part of the legend and they will maintain it. Hollywood and image are also used for promoting Marine

[Singha]

touche sir.

[Misraji]

... While I understand the logic, Bose Saar, I would right now take the politically correct stand of avoiding generalizations.
Well, being TFTA works for them, being SDRE works for us.

BTW, the marine had also told me how at the end of their training they had to spend a fortnight in a forest, eating
what they came across and sleeping only 3 hours a day. Forgot what they called that.
So I wouldn't exactly accuse them of being lily-livered.

BTW, thanks for the Bravo Two Zero patrol story. I hadn't heard of it before and it made for an interesting
read.

~Ashish.

[Singha]

as per a book on american SF I read - SEALS and Rangers (and Marines looks like) stress on the brute physical strength and rogue warrior look among the criteria. green beret recruitment features some long jungle navigation and escape exercises wherein they are secretly observed by some means how they cope in the forest. delta force has a huge battery of psychological tests.

I kind of doubt whether a guy like jesse ventura would make it into the green berets or delta force because some of their mission is undercover work alone or in small units .... ventura saar with brown pigment trying to pass himself off as a sheep herder in tumkur or a itvity worker in blr would be truly hilarious they need small inconspicuous guys who can blend into the woodwork but pack a real bite when pushed.

not ejatly the ideal size and shape here to hide in the woodwork
http://tnaron.files.wordpress.com/2008/ ... tling1.jpg

and turns out to be a fake kamandu (he was in UDT not the SEALS when they were separate):
Ventura has frequently referred to his military career in public statements and debates.[35][38][39] He was criticized by hunters and conservationists for stating in an interview with the Minneapolis StarTribune in April 2001, "Until you have hunted men, you haven't hunted yet."[39][40]

In January 2002, Ventura, who had never specifically claimed to have fought in Vietnam, disclosed for the first time that he did not see combat. He did not receive the Combat Action Ribbon, which was awarded to those involved in a firefight or who went on clandestine or special operations where the risk of enemy fire was great or expected.

[Carl_T]

I read a book about SEAL training, and it sounds like they do pushups every 10 minutes or so....In a book about the first delta force team they give the guys a 40 lbs bag and tell them to walk like 10 mi. or so, don't know the exact number.

From pictures, men in the USA SF and USN SEALs seem well built, muscular, but wiry, and not bulky at all.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... d_Wing.jpg

Of course there is Pat Tillman, but that may be the exception.

If you want to learn, there is a website: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com for Green Berets. Lot of info on there.

[ManjaM]

Lone survivor gives a real good idea about the SEAL training methods

http://www.amazon.com/Lone-Survivor-Eye ... 0316067598

[Raja Bose]

Misraji, No need to be poll-e-tickly correct. It is unfortunately true - plenty of anecdotal evidence from the first couple of batches of US Marines and SF who came to train at CIJWS and Belgaum. And being bulked up doesn't increase one's endurance or combat prowess regardless of TFTA or SDRE. If anything you provide a larger target to the enemy and a bigger burden to your supply chain.

The Delta guys you will find are almost always lean and mean - much like IA men. So are SAS fellas. The bulked up looks are mostly found in the Khan line units. If you look like the 3rd cousin of Arnie, its hard to blend in. From the words of a IA SF JCO, the best guys are those whom you will look at and forget immediately becoz he won't seem like a threat. And regardless of how bulked up and muscular you are, it only takes one enemy bullet to wipe you out if you blow your cover.

[Singha]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bravo_Two_Zero

if this account be true why are there so many divergencies in accounts between the members of the same patrol? what is the politics if any behind it?

the small chankian guy who made it out seems to be the careful type who prepared well with a $200 pair of boots in preference over the army issue boots.

I was thinking for cold water crossings, SF units carry some kinda petrol jelly to smear on the body but apparently not.

the same desert which kills people from cold - the bedouins have somewhat adapted and lived in for centuries....hardy people that.
no wonder the fat greco romans no clue what swept over them when Islam united the desert tribes and marched into palestine.

[Raja Bose]

^^^Mainly CYA and ofcourse some addition of mirch masala for the civilian public. Despite all the hoo-haah about super-duper SAS, they have had their fair share (and more) of disciplinary problems.

[Airavat]

Himachal seeks changes in RMP formula

Prem Kumar Dhumal, Chief Minister Himachal Pradesh, reiterated demand to change the existing Recruitable Male Population (RMP) Formula for recruitment to the armed forces. This plea was made by him to General V.K.Singh, Chief of Army Staff, who called on him here today.

He said that the State had a glorious military service track record. Dhumal said that State youth was willing to serve in the armed forces voluntarily but the RMP Formula was coming in their way.

[Singha]

that particular patrol reads like a disaster. people dying like flies, being discovered by simple bedouins, run to ground by armed civilians....even shocking differences of opinion like how much they walked on the first night 2km -vs- 20km.

I suspect there were serious mistakes made all down the chain and attempts were made to cover up and salvage some psyops glory from what was in effect a total failure of a mission.

[rohitvats]

that particular patrol reads like a disaster. people dying like flies, being discovered by simple bedouins, run to ground by armed civilians....even shocking differences of opinion like how much they walked on the first night 2km -vs- 20km.

I suspect there were serious mistakes made all down the chain and attempts were made to cover up and salvage some psyops glory from what was in effect a total failure of a mission.

Singha, I've read that book - it was basically a serious intelligence disaster. They landed smack in the middle of two Iraqi Armored/Mechanized Divisions and in an area inhabited by tribes loyal to Saddam Regime. Another thing - once they got caught, Iraqi officers told them how their Hptr had been tracked the moment it entered their airspace.

[darshhan]

absolutely right.Intelligence preparation was not enough for this operation.Secondly the squad made a very big mistake of going on a foot patrol.Unlike most of the other SAS and Delta force patrols in the region which were vehicle mounted.As it is the desert provides very little cover and when they were discovered they couldn't make a quick exit because they were on foot.Also by foregoing the use of vehicles they sacrificed the firepower that could have made a difference like .50 cal machine guns and anti tank missiles.

[Ankit Desai]

To use a non-Amirkhan example. Look up the story of the Bravo Two Zero patrol in 1991. Guess who died 1st? - the biggest baddest looking guy in the whole bunch. Guess who was the only one who escaped and trekked several hundred miles to freedom - one of the smallest, skinniest chaps in the group.

OT post though,

you can watch that here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwKvpnFdiGw 12 parts.

Ankit

[Misraji]

....
I suspect there were serious mistakes made all down the chain and attempts were made to cover up and salvage some psyops glory from what was in effect a total failure of a mission.

I find it the string of mistakes/failures hard to believe too. For eg: They changing their exfiltration route at the very last minute. Not following the "standard emergency rendezvous (ERV) procedure" which they had already done once. Pilot of rescue chopper falling sick in mid-air and aborting

There does seem to be a serious cover-up in place with each man giving his own half-baked version of what happened.

~Ashish

[Misraji]

Misraji, No need to be poll-e-tickly correct. It is unfortunately true - plenty of anecdotal evidence from the first couple of batches of US Marines and SF who came to train at CIJWS and Belgaum. And being bulked up doesn't increase one's endurance or combat prowess regardless of TFTA or SDRE. If anything you provide a larger target to the enemy and a bigger burden to your supply chain.

The Delta guys you will find are almost always lean and mean - much like IA men. So are SAS fellas. The bulked up looks are mostly found in the Khan line units. If you look like the 3rd cousin of Arnie, its hard to blend in. From the words of a IA SF JCO, the best guys are those whom you will look at and forget immediately becoz he won't seem like a threat. And regardless of how bulked up and muscular you are, it only takes one enemy bullet to wipe you out if you blow your cover.

If there is anecdotal evidence, then it will be fun to hear about it. I unfortunately do not know anybody in the forces.
By talking of the Delta guys, it seems apparent that those guys realize the importance of being lean and not overly bulky. Then its a question of why Marines and other US Army guys would stress on being muscular.

~Ashish.

[sum]

I find it the string of mistakes/failures hard to believe too. For eg: They changing their exfiltration route at the very last minute. Not following the "standard emergency rendezvous (ERV) procedure" which they had already done once. Pilot of rescue chopper falling sick in mid-air and aborting

There does seem to be a serious cover-up in place with each man giving his own half-baked version of what happened.

~Ashish

Sounds very similar to the 1996 movie "Courage under fire" where each of the troop member gives a bizarre and contradictory story when the matter of worthiness of the medal for a slain lady officer is probed further...

[Raja Bose]

If there is anecdotal evidence, then it will be fun to hear about it. I unfortunately do not know anybody in the forces.

Apparently the code name for the amirkhan soldiers in one such exercise was "haathi" both for their size and the amount of water they guzzled.

Then its a question of why Marines and other US Army guys would stress on being muscular.

Image projection and the fact that there is a strong jock culture in massa high schools which stresses heavy weight training (not necessarily a bad thing in civilian life considering us SDREs have our kids grow up with stick-like arms, bent spines and coke bottle glasses from carrying those 1 ton school bags).

[Misraji]

If there is anecdotal evidence, then it will be fun to hear about it. I unfortunately do not know anybody in the forces.

Apparently the code name for the amirkhan soldiers in one such exercise was "haathi" both for their size and the amount of water they guzzled.

Then its a question of why Marines and other US Army guys would stress on being muscular.

Image projection and the fact that there is a strong jock culture in massa high schools which stresses heavy weight training (not necessarily a bad thing in civilian life considering us SDREs have our kids grow up with stick-like arms, bent spines and coke bottle glasses from carrying those 1 ton school bags).

He He ... Haathi ...
Not too far from the actual truth though.
Khan kids are basically monsters ...

Some excellent pics from USMC IA training, 2006.

The US troops commended the Indian troops for their high endurance standards and excellent battle procedures.

Refer to Pg 5 of this document, Newsletter of 3rd Battalion, 4th Marines.
It has a description of the exercise they conducted in Belgaum with 8th Battalion of Maratha Light Infantry, 2009.

The 8th Marathas had an incredible bias for physically and mentally challenging training. Furthermore, the Indian soldiers our Marines were partnered with, were well drilled, extremely well disciplined and had incredible physical endurance

It seems that the Marines were very impressed with the physical endurance thingie that you speak of, Bose Saar.

~Ashish.

[Ankit Desai]

Army studying ‘lake’ on Pak-China road1

The Indian Army is studying the military implications of the formation of an artificial lake that has blocked the Karakoram Highway in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, the only land route linking Pakistan and China through the strategic Khunjerab pass.

Ankit

[Craig Alpert]

Under Siege: 20 yrs of AFSPA in J&K

July will mark 20 years of the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act in J&K. The people are angry the Army is still there. In Iraq, there is 1 soldier for every 166 people. In Kashmir, there is 1 for every 20. Is it time to start pulling out?

..............................

PUll out my A$$... Get rid of the Foreign/Domestic Terrorists 1st and then worry $hit like pulling out the army or not!

[svinayak]

PUll out my A$$... Get rid of the Foreign/Domestic Terrorists 1st and then worry $hit like pulling out the army or not!

In here the foreign terrorist are coming inside and they are talking about taking out the army

[Aditya_V]

Ankit Desai Army studying ‘lake’ on Pak-China road1

The Indian Army is studying the military implications of the formation of an artificial lake that has blocked the Karakoram Highway in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, the only land route linking Pakistan and China through the strategic Khunjerab pass.

What is there to study, during monsoons if you hit it with a smerch or if you feel some bridges on the road can be destroyed use a Brahmos, if they perform Mumbai type attacks we should also up the Ante when it suits us. and they then deny deny and deny. And if there is anytruck with transporting nuclear material on that road the better

[Singha]

I believe in upper reaches of Indus a landslide or earthquake has blocked it for many months now forming a miles long lake that was
threatening to burst the cofferdam and cause mayhem downstream. not sure if its the same lake.

[Raja Bose]

Misraji,

Our jawans and most of our officers come from villages and small towns which even today lack a lot of basic amenities. Hence, they are used to hardships as part of their normal lives. Comparatively an average grunt in the US Army/Marines is much better off and has a lot more comforts in his life. For him clean water and electricity are not luxuries. Most of them will even have air conditioners in their homes - a middle class luxury in India.

If you look at the hill women in northern parts of India - in/around Darjeeling even old women (60+ years old) used to carry 100 kgs of coal on their backs daily, walking through the hilly terrain. For them carrying a 40 lb backpack through a 40 mile march is peanuts. Why do you think the Garwhalis, Gurkhas and Nagas make such great fighting men - for them hardship is not an alien concept for which they have to be specially trained, it is already a part and parcel of their daily existence. If you get a chance, notice the legs of a hill porter or a sherpa - they are slim and yet have ropey muscles like steel belts.

[rohitvats]

It is the Indian Army Officers which have to learn and work extra hard to keep up physically with their men.... Indian Jawans and NCOs are supremely fit beings....the daily life in their villages means that walking/marching for couple of kms wouldn't even break a sweat.

[shiv]

I thought I would upload this chart of Indian boys height to weight charts. This is useful before doing a country comparison how how tall and how heavy.


I have a video somewhere of how far recruits are supposed to run carrying 30 or 40 kg. Will try and access that an upload.

[shiv]

Apparently the code name for the amirkhan soldiers in one such exercise was "haathi" both for their size and the amount of water they guzzled.

This haathi size has reflected in combat in Vietnam where American soldiers neeeded a lot more food and water to be transported.

I am not saying bad or good but let me repeat what I wrote here earlier. If you look at photos of US soldiers in WW 1 you find they are slim and wiry. One of the things that is causing concern in medical circles (not just khancountry - in SDREland also) is the shift of an entire popluation towards obesity. The entire American population is now heavier than earlier generations and so the recruits are like that too. And when they do weight training - they do become haathis. This problem has not yet hit the "Indian masses" from where the Indian army gets its recruits - but I notice that the chaddi-vest clad recruits I see nowadays are beefier than those I used to see as a schoolboy in Pune several decades ago.

[NRao]

Just a small plug ins support of this:

The entire American population is now heavier than earlier generations ...........

ALL US based manufacturers of WCs have started building models that are larger - to accommodate the larger size they expect in the future.

And:

April 2010 :: Obesity among US schoolchildren 'a risk to national security'

The US army is facing a recruiting crisis as the current generation of American schoolchidren are "too fat to fight", according to a group of retired officers who believe national security is at risk as a result.

[Carl_T]

I don't think by beefy we are talking about overfat boys, I think we are talking about the big muscular types like Pat Tillman or maybe Marcus Luttrell.

[darshhan]

This haathi size has reflected in combat in Vietnam where American soldiers neeeded a lot more food and water to be transported.

I have seen a lot of vietnam era photos of us army and marines.I didn't find them heavy or beefy at all.Even today majority of American soldiers are mostly of normal size.You will hardly find any arnold or Jesse ventura type soldiers.Although on an average Americans are bigger than Indians but then so are Russians or dutch.Even in Indian Army the soldiers belonging to Jat or Sikh regiment would be bigger than those belonging to gurkhas or nagas.It doesn't mean that the quality of jats or the Sikhs is any inferior.

As far as the amount of food and water are concerned the need differs from person to person.The reason why American soldiers have more access to these is that America as a nation cares more for its soldiers unlike India which has forgotten its warriors.Also Americans have created a formidable logistics capability that allows them to indulge their troops.and it does work wonders for the morale of the troops which is the deciding factor between defeat and victory.

If America does provide bottled water to its troops in the field and quality food to its troops shouldn't we try to emulate it and provide similar necessities to our soldiers.And why limit to just food and water.There is requirement for better accomodation,better vehicles,better weaponry etc.

In fact the typical ploy used by politicians and bureaucrats for making our soldiers fight in miserable conditions is to emphasize how tough our soldiers are and they don't need much to survive and now even the public is buying this argument.What they forget is that these policies are creating discontent in our forces(both Army and paramilitary).

[sanjaykumar]

Even Americans find Minnesotans for example to be 'huge'.

A standardised growth chart for 'Indians' is not very useful.

Or accurate. I presume the 3% line reads off 160 lbs for a 18 year old. Not likely in the vast hinterland where the majority live.

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>

As far as the amount of food and water are concerned the need differs from person to person.The reason why American soldiers have more access to these is that America as a nation cares more for its soldiers unlike India which has forgotten its warriors.Also Americans have created a formidable logistics capability that allows them to indulge their troops.and it does work wonders for the morale of the troops which is the deciding factor between defeat and victory.

If America does provide bottled water to its troops in the field and quality food to its troops shouldn't we try to emulate it and provide similar necessities to our soldiers.And why limit to just food and water.There is requirement for better accomodation,better vehicles,better weaponry etc.

<SNIP>

I think we're getting off the tangent here. And by a big margin.

This whole discussion started from trying to understand the requirement for or otherwise of muscle-mass vis-a-vis endurance and stamina in SF Soldiers. One of the posters quoted an article by American Marine Officer(?) on the need for resistance training and BRFites quoted how endurance and stamina is the key.

What you're stating is completely different - it is about the logistics required to sustain American Army/Marine troops in the battle area. The fact that American Army provides it's soldiers with bottled water while IA does not is not an example of lack of logistics on our part (in case you don't know, we even paradrop goats/chickens to forward areas - meat on hooves as they call them) - it is symptomatic of the fact that US Troops are more molly-coddled than others. And this has consequences on the what those troops can do and what they cannot - directly proportional to how much the logistic chain can put up with.

Just because you don't see snaps of IA troops with Bisleri bottles in their hands, you think IA does not provide safe drinking to it's troops? But the fact is this - If required, IA troops will source water/rations from local sources. This may be in organized manner - like the ASC/Ordanance Unit doing it or formations making their own "jugaad". It's soldiers are not going to suffer from bouts of dysentry because of drinking water in "thirrrd worrld" country. The water will not have to be flown/shipped in from US of A or other Safer destination.

[sanjaykumar]

India does need to match the west in its regard for the troops' comfort.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 277034.ece

[sanjaykumar]

And definitely need to do something about the water.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03512.html