Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 May 2010 15:26

rohit, thanks for the detailed post. I was actually doing a back of the envelope kind of calculation sometime back to estimate the ballpark number of aircrafts required to move an infantry bde with one btn fully mobile(on 4X4's). the numbers end up much higher. even if we assume that the full formation may bot be airlifted at one go, an exercise like this would absorb almost all of our existing and projected capabilities leaving nothing in reserve.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 29 May 2010 16:30

Dmurphy wrote:
khukri wrote:India To Open Competition for New Aerostats

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =ASI&s=AIR
The article says, all 3 radars are in Punjab. Is that a right strategy?

Punjab has the highest concentration of airbases in the country. Also the airspace over Punjab is critical for transport operations to and from J&K. And fighter operations from PAF's airbases of Sargodha, Rafiqui and Mianwala in the 'other' Punjab can be monitored from here.

Eventually, the IAF does plan to have 13 of them, so the bases in J&K and Rajasthan can expect them in the near future.

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 May 2010 16:15

There is a 60 Hovercraft requirement by the Indian Army with 2 separate RFI’s floating around.

One is for 16 AIR CUSHIONED VEHICLES TROOP CARRIAGE – ACV (TC) capable of transporting 80 fully armed and equipped men:

ACV (TC)

The other is for 44 AIR CUSHIONED VEHICLES RECCE & PATROLLING – ACV (R&P) capable of transporting 10 fully armed and equipped men:

ACV (R&P)

Both the RFI has been put out by the E in C branch of the Army.

What is the E in C branch? Engineer in Chief?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 May 2010 16:18

^^ probably means his office ? IIRC EinC handles induction of items. btw, thanks for keeping an eye on the tenders.

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 30 May 2010 18:20

^^^^^
E-in-C's Branch is indeed Engineer in Chief's Branch, the DG (so to speak) of the Corps of Engineers and MES.
The ACVs appear to be for deployment on the NE and Ladkah Regions of the China border. They will be utilised to carry Engineer sections for recce and survey (the 10 passenger ones) and the larger ones for carrying the platoons that are to be deployed for constructing defence works . The larger ones may also carry a new type of small-ish dozers being procured from Vectra.

Seems E-in-C Branch has been informed by its partner organisation, DGBR (Director General Border Roads) the need to deploy in strength to complete border defence works because the roads (from the Border Roads Org) will take time to be built.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 May 2010 21:08

How about Rann of Kutch for deployment?

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 30 May 2010 22:12

^^^^^^^^
Possible, as well, for part of the equipment. But, Kutch defences are in a better state given that it has long been 11 Div's AoR and the associated ER normally deploys at least one company during winters in the area for exercises.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 30 May 2010 22:14

rohitvats wrote:How about Rann of Kutch for deployment?

Such hovercrafts would be best for Rann of Kutch and for the marshes of Bengal. I undertsand that the IN / BSF / CG already use the Griffin hovercrafts, made in India by Garden Reach Reach

K

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 May 2010 00:27

Another possible use could be for India's fledgling Amphib. forces.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 May 2010 03:24

the 16 AVC (TC) are for the eastern theater.

The Army wants hovercraft that can cruise at 25-40 knots with 80 fully equipped combat troops (excluding crew) along with their battle loads, three-days of logistics requiremements, and vehicles in lieu of troops when necessary. The Army has specified that contending hovercraft should be able to operate in marshy land, sand bars, mudflats, mangroves, tidal creeks, swamps, weed choked lakes, lagoons, backwaters, islands and coastal areas.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 May 2010 09:35

NRao wrote:the 16 AVC (TC) are for the eastern theater.

The Army wants hovercraft that can cruise at 25-40 knots with 80 fully equipped combat troops (excluding crew) along with their battle loads, three-days of logistics requiremements, and vehicles in lieu of troops when necessary. The Army has specified that contending hovercraft should be able to operate in marshy land, sand bars, mudflats, mangroves, tidal creeks, swamps, weed choked lakes, lagoons, backwaters, islands and coastal areas.

The bolded part makes it sound exactly like the Rann (save for mangroves)

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 31 May 2010 09:55

NRao wrote:the 16 AVC (TC) are for the eastern theater.

The Army wants hovercraft that can cruise at 25-40 knots with 80 fully equipped combat troops (excluding crew) along with their battle loads, three-days of logistics requiremements, and vehicles in lieu of troops when necessary. The Army has specified that contending hovercraft should be able to operate in marshy land, sand bars, mudflats, mangroves, tidal creeks, swamps, weed choked lakes, lagoons, backwaters, islands and coastal areas.

this very sad that India is still buying hovercraft as a hovercraft was developed in India long a go by our APJ Abdul Kalam, as i remember the hovercraft was named Nandi
this is the link for the report on the hovercraft project
more over it was APJ who did the test pilot work for the hovercraft trials

MUST WATCH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnBvuahUyCc

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2010 10:29

methinks the russian Zubr class in a new incarnation could be useful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zubr/Pomornik_%28LCAC%29
the smaller model used was the aist class
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aist_class_LCAC

I hope to god its not another FMS scam to get usmc lcac at uber inflated prices. the specs look much taller
than lcac which is merely a shuttle to get stuff into the beach. the IA specs make it look more like
a roving patrol ship with a higher degree of autonomy...a CG OPV of sorts for shallow and shifting water
where CG vessels cannot operate (they have some small hovercrafts).

the Zubr class in some new smaller format seems to be one fitting the bill.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 May 2010 10:30

There is a world of difference between a tech demonstrator and an operational model refined over many generations.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2010 10:36

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/chi ... aft-02610/

in 2006 china ordered 6 Zubr craft from almaz shipyard.

I think its time for us to move in, now that their order is likely done or tailing off

saurav.jha · Post by **saurav.jha** » 01 Jun 2010 17:42

just came across the article which says NORTHROP GRUMMAN sold HAWKEYE E-2D to INDIA in 2009. is it true..?

http://www.ey.com/Publication/vwLUAsset ... e%20VI.pdf

Another link

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensen ... ia&id=3696

the reconnaissance plane has yet to be introduced in the U.S. Navy. Its sale to India, he says, is a symbol of how close India/U.S. military relations are.

"So they [the Indians] could have advanced Hawkeyes in India about the same time that the U.S. Navy becomes fully operational with the same aircraft," he explained.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Jun 2010 18:47

saurav.jha wrote:just came across the article which says NORTHROP GRUMMAN sold HAWKEYE E-2D to INDIA in 2009. is it true..?

Not true.. Its been offered, not sold..

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 02 Jun 2010 15:33

Just another way for US to pressurise us to sign the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMoA) and the Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for Geo-spatial Cooperation (BECA) and become another vassal state. Esp. true after India rejected the Logistics Support Agreement (LSA). Read this

arun · Post by **arun** » 07 Jun 2010 13:09

X Posted. Pipavav Shipyard has won an Indian Navy order for five Offshore Patrol Vessels apparently beating out L&T and Goa Shipyard:

Pipavav bags Rs 2,600-cr Navy deal

This class of vessels seems to be distinct from the Goa Shipyard built Saryu Class NOPV that is currently being built for the Navy. The class of OPV that will be built by Pipavav Shipyard seems to be 5 meters longer but has a displacement that is 200 Tonnes less and is 5 Knots slower. Going by a Janes article released during/after IMDS in June / July 2009, the Pipavav Shipyard has tied up with Russia’s Severnoye Design Bureau for the executing the contract:

Russia's Severnoye teams with Pipavav to compete for Indian NOPV

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 07 Jun 2010 14:27

sathyaC wrote:
NRao wrote:
MUST WATCH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnBvuahUyCc

The lady's accent is so strong, painful to listen to. But good video.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 07 Jun 2010 22:41

Missile for missile

PMO BEAT

By R. Prasannan

Manmohan Singh tried to be even-handed while giving away the National Technology Day awards to DRDO scientists. He commended their work on missiles, tanks, aircraft, electronic warfare, radar and communication systems. Then he went ballistic: “Our current level of self-reliance in defence R&D is less than our capabilities.”

DRDO chief V.K. Saraswat, who has shot down incoming missiles endo- and exo-atmosphere, made an interception bid within the solemn atmosphere: “...The responsibility for self-reliance should be shared by all stake-holders of MoD [ministry of defence],” meaning the brass-hats and the babus.

Another ICBM from the PM: “...Some defence projects have been delayed... DRDO [should] learn from these experiences and work more closely with the armed forces....”
Saraswat's ABM: “DRDO neither has the power to impose its products on its customer nor the mandate or capacity to produce the developed systems all by themselves.” A point missed by those who compare defence scientists with space and atomic scientists! Space savants don't have to sell their PSLV to anyone. DRDO has to 'sell' Tejas, Arjun and Lakshya to phoren-crazy customers.

Saraswat then launched his own ICBM at the brass-hats: “...While the temptation may be overwhelming to field proven, state-of-the-art imported systems, they [the services], too, have a role to play in the economic and industrial growth of the country.”

Defence scientists have been saying ad nauseam that the services should order local ware in bulk for the industry to grow. But the Army has ordered just 120 Arjun tanks and the Air Force 40 Tejas warjets. No plane-maker in the world, save Hindustan Aeronautics, would set up assembly lines for 40. The services say the systems have to be proven 100 per cent.

No such problem when importing! The MiG-29, indeed the world's finest interceptor, was bought eyes closed when Gorbachev offered it for the first time outside the Warsaw Pact. The Sukhoi-30, the world's best plane of its class, had not even flown when India committed to buy 230.

Qualitative requirements (QR) are diluted if the foreign seller reduces price. But no dilution for Arjun, come hell, highwater or Pakistan's Al Khalid tank. QRs are upped for local ware, midstream. Some missile caught the fancy of IAF in 2004 and the QR for Tejas was changed, after the prototypes had clocked hundreds of test hours. The entire wing, made of locally-invented composite material, had to be re-engineered from square-one on the graph sheet. Nag, the third world's first top-attack anti-tank missile, is still in the lab because the generals asked for a longer range, after it had completed trials.

The Navy asked DRDO to build an electronic warfare system in the 1980s. When DRDO delayed, the Navy went for import. The Public Accounts Committee was horrified that the Navy had “firmly stuck to the short time-frame given to [DRDO] while liberally revising the delivery schedule of the foreign vendor”.

Indeed, DRDO men need to be pulled up. They bite more than what they can chew. They promise the moon, and deliver meteors. They think of themselves as product-developers; they should be technology-developers. Hopefully, the Rama Rao report, which A.K. Antony is implementing, will rectify the lacunae.

Tailpiece: In the 1930s, Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin ordered the Royal Air Force to take Hampdens and Wellingtons even before the prototypes had been tested. He sent the Bristol Beaufort into production straight from the drawing-board. When the Luftwaffe locusts came to bomb Britain into Stonehenge age, the RAF pilots raced to meet them in more than 10,000 rookie planes. That trust, which the brave-hearts had on the wise-minds of their country, created 'the finest hour'.
prasannan@the-week.com

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 07 Jun 2010 22:55

biswas wrote:
The lady's accent is so strong, painful to listen to. But good video.

Nothing painful about her accent. We Indians are like this onleee !!

-M

kit · Post by **kit** » 08 Jun 2010 08:39

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100607/main5.htm

Fact or Fiction ?

India to acquire ‘x-band’ radars
Can spot a six-inch object from 4,600 km

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jun 2010 09:44

Could very well be the US Forward-Based X-band Transportable (FBX-T) radar link

Known as the Forward-Based X-band Transportable (FBX-T) radar, the AN/TPS-2 is built by Raytheon, based on the 'Ground Based Radar' employed with the THAAD system. The FBX-T is designed as an air, ground and rail transportable, X-band, phased array radar that uses high-powered, electronically scanning pulsed beams, to track small objects in space at high resolution. The system has been described by U.S. officials as capable of tracking an object the size of a "baseball from about 2,900 miles (4,600 km) away". The system is being developed in a spiral process. The current phase provides surveillance and search capabilities early in the target trajectory, and enables the early engagement of the threat. It also supports messaging and communication with the Ballistic Missile Defense Systems (BMDS) battle manager (C2BMC).

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jun 2010 09:46

This is from Raytheon Website this is really Top-Notch system

Forward-Based X-Band Radar-Transportable (FBX-T)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jun 2010 09:53

I think the problem with X band radar no matter how far they can look ahead is they will always be limited by the Horizon , they really do not have OTH capability.

They are good to discriminate target and track small targets precisely at longest possible range limited by horizon.

If one really wants to look beyond Horizon and provide EW one needs OTH Long Wave Radar ( 1 -2 Ghz ) like the one operated by US, Russia for BMEWS.

May be radar gurus Dileep can throw more light on the subject.

kit · Post by **kit** » 08 Jun 2010 14:54

Interesting facts about measuring the Horizon

radio horizon range (RHR): The distance at which a direct radio wave can reach a receiving antenna of given height from a transmitting antenna of given height. Note: The radio horizon range in nautical miles, R , is given by the relation R = 1.23(h t1/2 + h r1/2), where h t and h r are the heights of the transmitting and receiving antennas in feet. The radio horizon range, R , in nautical miles is also given by the relation R = 2.23(h t1/2 +h r1/2), where h t and h r are the heights of the transmitting and receiving antennas in meters. The effective Earth radius, 4/3 times the actual Earth radius, is used in deriving the formulae. Second-order differentials are neglected. They are of the order of 0.1%. [From Weik '89]

Horizon Calculator
http://radarproblems.com/calculators/horizon.htm

Is this useful in the Indian context ? or rather how useful is it say vs China which has OTH capability ? Sometime back there was some news about an Indian OTH radar .. dont remember where. How do the Guru s here rate the US offer ? Outright it seems very good., but is it ..really ?

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 08 Jun 2010 18:34

That article is DDMits.
The only way an X band radar can have a range of 4500km is when you place it in space. X band is mostly Line of Sight because of its high frequency. L-band radars or even lower frequency ones can have such a long range. Spotting a 6 inch object at 4500km needs enormous amounts of power. You probably need a dedicated power plant to achieve such a thing. Such range is totally unnecessary IMHO.
1000km is more than sufficient.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jun 2010 19:00

cobra mist radar - aleutian islands.
pave paws radar

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Jun 2010 09:01

Moksha in sight?

New MoD policy to boost Indian arms industry

The new Defence Production Policy is rooted in the MoD's realisation that its longstanding acquisition model of building weaponry in India, through Transfer of Technology (ToT), has failed to generate indigenisation. Real indigenisation, the MoD now believes, comes from designing weaponry, not just manufacturing foreign designs.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Jun 2010 09:11

rohiths wrote:That article is DDMits.
The only way an X band radar can have a range of 4500km is when you place it in space. X band is mostly Line of Sight because of its high frequency. L-band radars or even lower frequency ones can have such a long range. Spotting a 6 inch object at 4500km needs enormous amounts of power. You probably need a dedicated power plant to achieve such a thing. Such range is totally unnecessary IMHO.
1000km is more than sufficient.

Possible its a DDM and why would US sell such top notch radar which are being made in very limited numbers to India. The extended range of GP/LRTR ( ~ 1500 km ) is what best we can hope for our BMD.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 09 Jun 2010 10:49

rohiths wrote:That article is DDMits.
The only way an X band radar can have a range of 4500km is when you place it in space. X band is mostly Line of Sight because of its high frequency. L-band radars or even lower frequency ones can have such a long range. Spotting a 6 inch object at 4500km needs enormous amounts of power. You probably need a dedicated power plant to achieve such a thing. Such range is totally unnecessary IMHO.
1000km is more than sufficient.

I don't know if it is totally DDMitis.

The US does have ground based X-band Radars that can track aircraft/missiles well over 1500 miles (2414 kms ) . If I'm not mistaken they recently set up a US run radar facility in Israel (they didn't want the Israelis to run it! ) that can track aircraft, missiles etc in Iran and across the entire Middle East.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,449704,00.html

Having even 1 or 2 of these radars strategically located in India could give the IAF unprecedented coverage over much of China and Central Asia. The possibility that the US would "sell/give" these radars to India is very remote. Even if these radars are set up in India, it will at best be a US run facility, so its pointless to even ask them. The Europeans don't have anything or similar capability and neither do the Russians.

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 09 Jun 2010 14:30

IF Australia can do it, India can do it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jindalee_O ... ar_Network

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 09 Jun 2010 17:41

EADS Defence and Security plans Centre of Competence in India

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 09 Jun 2010 21:03

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100607/main5.html

It only mentions that the radars are to be "acquired" nothing about from whom, I guess he is trying to say that India is or at least planning to develop such a radar.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 16 Jun 2010 04:17

Russia, India may jointly make Glonass, GPS navigation devices

Russia and India might establish a joint venture to produce navigation equipment for GPS and its Russian equivalent Glonass, the head of the Russian federal satellite navigation operator said on Tuesday.

Glonass - the Global Navigation Satellite System - is the Russian equivalent of the U.S. Global Positioning System, or GPS, and is designed for both military and civilian use. Both systems allow users to determine their positions to within a few meters.

"We are actively working on a project to establish a joint venture on Indian territory to produce various navigation equipment. In March a group of our negotiators will head there for another round of talks," said Aledxander Gurko, CEO of Navigation and Information Systems (NIS).

Russia currently has a total of 22 Glonass satellites in orbit, but only 16 of them are operational. The system requires 18 operational satellites for continuous navigation services covering the entire territory of Russia and at least 24 satellites to provide navigation services worldwide.

The Glonass navigation satellite system is expected to start operating worldwide by the end of 2010. As soon as global operations are launched, India will be able to use the civilian signal, allowing users to determine their position to within five to 15 meters.

India's access to a more precise military signal is yet to be approved by the heads of the two states.

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said he would discuss cooperation in the Glonass project with Indian officials during his forthcoming visit to New Delhi in the first half of March.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 16 Jun 2010 04:45

Grob Aircraft targets 181 trainers for IAF

...
Its German manufacturer, Grob Aircraft, submitted a tender in April along with Embraer of Brazil; Pilatus of Switzerland; Raytheon of the US; Finmeccanica of Italy; and Korea Aerospace Industries for the Indian purchase of 75 trainer aircraft.

While these 75 trainers are being procured, Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will design and manufacture an additional 106 basic trainers, dubbed the Hindustan Turbo Trainer — 40 (HTT-40). In building the HTT-40, HAL plans to leverage its experience in designing a more advanced trainer, the Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), which is currently being test flown.
...
...
Grob’s strategy: Surprise HAL with the technological excellence of the Grob-120TP; and then — when HAL realises that it cannot match the Grob trainer — offer HAL a substantial partnership in Grob’s global supply chain in exchange for letting Grob supply an additional 106 Grob-120TP aircraft.

Given HAL’s technological excellence in manufacturing composites cheaply, Grob is happy to source from HAL. IAF will be happy with a single basic trainer that is already training Israeli, French, German and Canadian air force pilots, rather than waiting for an untried HAL trainer. And, HAL would have eliminated developmental risks, while obtaining an assured customer.

“For HAL to supply 106 aircraft to the Indian Air Force is one thing, but producing fifty, sixty, seventy components for us, for the global market, over a long period of time, is another thing,” says Johann Heitzmann, CEO of Grob Aircraft.

“Depending upon the outcome of the tender for the first 75 aircraft, all the participants will have to go and look at the cards one more tim0e and see what they sense.”

Technologically, Grob is on solid ground; the Grob-120TP is two generations ahead of the Deepak and is the world’s lightest trainer with ejection seats for both pilots. The Grob-120TP’s digital glass cockpit, built by Israeli company, Elta, allows rookie pilots to fly mission-specific sorties that were only possible earlier in advanced trainers.

Finally, Grob claims this trainer, built entirely of maintenance-free, lightweight composites, is half the price of its rivals and three times cheaper to fly and maintain. Sources indicate that the Grob-120TP has been offered to India for $3-4 million apiece.
...
...

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 17 Jun 2010 23:35

India likely to spend $80 bn in next 5 yrs: CII study

India is estimated to spend about $80 billion in the next five years on defence acquisitions, making it one of the most attractive markets for global defence firms, an industry study has said.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 18 Jun 2010 18:59

Ajai Shukla reports..

Arms spending: India grows as west shrinks

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 21 Jun 2010 16:23

Foreign Defence Suppliers are Seeking to Incorporate the Indian Defence Industry into Their Global Supply Chains

Highlights of the CII-Deloitte report on ‘Prospects for Global Defence Industry in Indian defence market’:

• Indian defence procurement would rise to an estimated USD 42 Billion (including USD 19.20 bn for capital acquisition) which could make India as one of the most attractive markets in the World.

• The defence capital expenditure budget is expected to achieve a compound Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) of 10 Percent from 2011 – 2015.

• Total indigenous production over 2011-2015 would need to expand from approx USD 30 bn to more than USD 70 bn in the span of 5 years to be able to achieve 70 percent indigenization by the year 2015. Defence industry would need to expand by an average of 30 percent a year over the next 5 years.

• It is estimated that India is likely to spend nearly USD 80 bn USD for next five years (2010-2015) on Capital expenditure.

• The Report provides Information to global investor firms to understand the Indian defence requirements and domestic industry capabilities and opportunities in the four key domains vis maritime, land , aerospace and electronics.