Indian Autos Thread

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2010 08:19

what car do you have ?

apollo acelere seems to be OEM in fabia, swift and i20 - a good vote of confidence from multiple parties. J&K, goodyear and MRF should also have tubeless tyres - you might want to avoid mrf in your particular case.

michelin will be a tad expensive maybe.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 19 Jun 2010 09:09

Fiesta 1.6 is the car. The big tyre shop recommended BridgeStone and Michelin.

vina · Post by **vina** » 19 Jun 2010 09:28

Fiesta 1.6 is the car. The big tyre shop recommended BridgeStone and Michelin.

Yes.. If your aim is SDRE like sedate driving in comfort and not turning and burning and hitting the max "g" numbers in the corners and skid pads, the Michelin might not be worth paying the premium for.

I would check out the Apollo Accelere .. Added bonus, Apollos are made in Kochi and probably use the rubber from your estates near your farm!.

Oh, and also before buying ANY tyre, make sure you do the wheel alignment for all your 4 wheels. And also equally important, do the wheel balancing when you buy any wheels and insist on it before mounting the wheel.

The low lifes here in India simply put the tyre on the rim and mount it. I have stopped them just before them and ask them what about wheel balancing, when they sheepishly say, saar, extra Rs 75 per wheel.

Make sure you talk about all those "Extras" before closing the price . There are certain things about the good 'ol USA where things work the way they do. You go to pep boys or any auto tyre shop, you get all this done absolutely well and they also charge you to do a proper disposal of the used tyre.

Here in India, when I changed my tyres, there was a used tyre dealer hanging out near the shop (the tyre dealer has a tie in with the retreader) and they usually buy out the used tyres from you.. You get a couple of 100 Rs per tyre. MRFs are in good demand by the used tyre guys... The retreaded tyres end up in taxis.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2010 09:39

onlee complaint I have heard about michelin is they were initially not so long lasting, then they made some change to make it last longer and now its supposed to all-ok. very quiet and 'posh' apparently. bridgestone is used by honda in civic and accord along with michelin, so cant be too bad either.

but acelere might be more VFM. between swift , dzire and i20 sales alone, tens of 1000s are being sold every month.

vina · Post by **vina** » 19 Jun 2010 09:47

Bridgestone and Michelin are the top 2 900lb global biggies in the tyre business. They corner much of the global market. The Goodyears Continentals and Pierllis and Yokos etc are niche / smaller guys.

Bridgestone is Japanese (which also acquired Firestone, Yamreeki), Michelin is Phrench. Continental is German, Pierelli Italian.

So if you buy a Japanese car, odds are that they are shod with Bridgestone (and to a letter extent Yoko) as OEM and if you buy BMW,Merc,VW --> Conti and Fiat --> Pirelli and of course Pierlli is considered the best of high performance tyres, so all Ferraris, Maseratis, maybe Porsches come shod with those.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2010 16:07

is apollo some tieup with continental or totally independent? what about JK and MRF?

bstone turanza and potenza are seen in lots of massa cars also.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 19 Jun 2010 20:15

Dileep wrote:Fiesta 1.6 is the car. The big tyre shop recommended BridgeStone and Michelin.

Michelin should be the default choice. Comfort, looks and little noise.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 21 Jun 2010 16:19

Dileep wrote:Fiesta 1.6 is the car. The big tyre shop recommended BridgeStone and Michelin.

Saar, you could go for Michelin Primacy tyres (205 through to 225). It does come with better performance in the wet (compared to Michelin XM1+ or Mich Energy varieties). Serves you better in Socialist Republic where roads are relatively free of potholes when compared to Bangalore.

If you have the flair for better performance, you could always go for rotational (directional tyres). Continental Pro-Contact would be ideal, you could also try out Zetum/Kumho or Maxxis(these are imported, no rim replacement necessary).

Or there is the despicable Panda made Gemstone, universally hated by Tyre Technicians!

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 21 Jun 2010 23:17

ArmenT wrote:The fun thing is that quite a few kids who mount spoilers on their cars don't realize that their cars are front wheel drive. The whole aim of the spoiler is to keep the wheels pressed on the ground for better traction. By mounting a spoiler on the back of the car, they keep the rear wheels pressed firmly to the road, but lift the front wheels off the ground. What this means is they reduce traction to the wheels that actually put the power to the road .

Spoilers are used to

1. reduce drag co-efficient
2. produce downforce
- they can be in the front or back or both ends at the same time.

The design will tell you if the spoiler is used to reduce drag co-efficient - usually the entire width is joined to the body with no gap between the ventral edge of the spoiler and the body. Downforce producing spoilers will typically have airfoil shapes, only inverted and with a noticeable gap between the ventral edge of the spoiler and the body. Some spoilers can do both - most noticeable in the front and rear spoilers of the open cockpit racers like F1 and Indy cars.

Using a spoiler to reduce drag co-efficient is a good idea if designed for the body shape, the less the drag the better fuel consumption and faster the car can go.

Downforce producing airfoils increase the contact area of the tyres. Which means greater cornering ability with more controlled under-steer. IMO they do not produce enough downforce to negate the weight of the front mounted engines and gearbox on FW drive cars - mostly because the vehicles cannot achieve the multi-100s of km necessary to lift the front end with the very limited surface area of the rear mounted airfoils. Caveat is the airfoil should be designed for the car body shape.

In short they can work or not work depending on how they are designed to fit the particular vehicle. But rear mounted spoilers will not produce enough downforce to counteract the weight of front mounted engines and gear box.

-----
added later.

Most cars have a bias towards the front wrt front:rear weight distribution. 60/40, 55/45 and such like. Just FYI for consideration.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jun 2010 23:41

I would suggest do not go for directional tread tyres in india. most of the people who do the tyre rotation during servicing have no clue how to track it and make sure
the tyres get rotated and mounted in proper orientation back on the rims .... even in massa you got to be watchful

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jun 2010 23:44

doesnt the porsche 911 have a small spoiler that deploys only after the car hits a high speed and otherwise lies flush with body? makes sense.

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 22 Jun 2010 00:18

Taking above as an example the 911 has a 40/60 F/R weight distribution, due to its rear mounted engines and GB. The spoilers are probably being used to reduce drag and certainly do not effect the contact of front wheels much. Even with the weight biased to the rear.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 22 Jun 2010 00:36

Often i wonder why cant the government levy a cess on diesel cars equivalent to the amount of subsidy that they would receive via subsidises diesel prices.
for example if a car's lifetime is 150000 kms and if it ends up consuming 15000 litres of diesel, and if the subsidy on a liter of diesel is say Rs.5, then like life tax the govt could levy a subsidy charge amounting to 15000*5 right when the sale of the car takes place. Wont this help the oil companies and in the overall run provide means to cushion out the losses that they make.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jun 2010 01:08

can someone explain these stickers seen in a force motors TT type van today.

"this vehicle has a turbocharger. for optimum oil flow to turbocharger, the engine is to be run for 2 mins stationary at starting and also 2 mins before shutdown
else the turbocharger could be damaged"

"driving in 5th gear below 50 kmph will reduce life of clutch"

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 22 Jun 2010 01:33

The discussion on turbocharger:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 70#p783870

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jun 2010 08:45

http://www.carblogindia.com/wp-content/ ... cf8006.jpg

ford is expected to bring the facelifted fiesta to india in 2011 1Q. 1.6 ltr petrol and diesel engines are expected.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 22 Jun 2010 16:48

Singha wrote:http://www.carblogindia.com/wp-content/ ... cf8006.jpg

ford is expected to bring the facelifted fiesta to india in 2011 1Q. 1.6 ltr petrol and diesel engines are expected.

The front looks like fiat sienna.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 23 Jun 2010 02:22

Singha wrote:can someone explain these stickers seen in a force motors TT type van today.

"this vehicle has a turbocharger. for optimum oil flow to turbocharger, the engine is to be run for 2 mins stationary at starting and also 2 mins before shutdown
else the turbocharger could be damaged"

Turbochargers need good lubrication, since they run at very high rpm.

When engine is started, if you immediately floor the pedal and ramp up the engine rpms, the turbocharger rpm will also increase rapidly, but the oil pump will probably not pump lubrication into the turbocharger as effectively as it needs to be, at that stage.

Same thing while switching. You want lubrication to the TC while it is slowing down, so leave it on idling before shutting down engine (and oil pump).

"driving in 5th gear below 50 kmph will reduce life of clutch"

There is lesser torque as you go to higher gears. If there is not enough torque (happens under 50 kmph), the engine side of the clutch plate rotates at higher rpm (due to higher gear) and the gear box side of the clutch plate rotates slower (vehicle slowing down due to lower torque available) and clutch plate gets worn out faster.

It's been many years since I left the auto industry, so the terms may be wrong, but generally, I am confident of what I wrote

manish · Post by **manish** » 23 Jun 2010 14:12

Hyundai has gone ahead and launched the face-lifted Verna as the Verna Transform.

IMVVHO, the earlier looked presentable enough, although it was a touch staid. The 'new' one seems truly hideous at the front, a throwback perhaps to the earlier days when all Hyundais seemed to be angry and scowling for some unknown reason (remember the old Elantra and its toothy grill?)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jun 2010 17:34

word in tbhp is that a corolla altis diesel has cleared indian certification and will be launched a month from now. said to be 90bhp and 1.6L and will be priced 80k-1.2L higher than petrol models. FE is claimed as 21 kmpl in test conditions which are unclear (better than swift or ritz diesel).

with this toyota hopes to sell 1000s of altis every month as opposed to few 100s in petrol version and destroy the laura diesel and cruze. the Etios which arrives later this yr will squarely compete with the ANHC perhaps at a better price.

toyota already owns the 20L suv market with its fortuner - long wait times and strong sales. honda vacated that fight without a fight by deciding not to localize the cr-v for india - so the fully imported ckd kit costs north of 25L. fortuner apparently outsells the endeavour and captiva by very big margin.

vina · Post by **vina** » 26 Jun 2010 21:22

Two of my tyres turned Paki after 60K KMs of use. One developed bulges, the other was ripped open and had a patch put in for emergency use.

Went to Sai Iyengar Tyre and upgraded to 2 front tyres on the front wheels to Michelin Energy XM+ silicone tyres, with Nitrogen filled in for free and also got 4 wheel balancing done. Now car feels smooth like "Hema Malini's cheeks" and none of that road noise and minor wobbles/vibrations from the old worn out tyres.

Very TFTA onree. Cost a packet though.

vina · Post by **vina** » 26 Jun 2010 21:27

Singha wrote:word in tbhp is that a corolla altis diesel has cleared indian certification and will be launched a month from now. said to be 90bhp and 1.6L and will be priced 80k-1.2L higher than petrol models. FE is claimed as 21 kmpl in test conditions which are unclear (better than swift or ritz diesel).

with this toyota hopes to sell 1000s of altis every month as opposed to few 100s in petrol version and destroy the laura diesel and cruze. the Etios which arrives later this yr will squarely compete with the ANHC perhaps at a better price.

Honda and Toyota are losing the plot here in India slowly but surely. What happened to them in consumer electronics/white goods/brown goods where the Koreans brought in the their latest and greatest at very good prices versus the Japanese head stuck the sand and demanding huge "premiums" for their brand alone, with products largely comparable to the competition is happening again in automobiles.

The only guys who escaped that rut is Maruti, which is probably as daal-chawal-roti dhoti wearing Desi as anyone else and less "Japanese".

The Honda and Toyota eye each others as competitors, but he game is moving ahead with a far wider set of competitors coming in. The name of the game in India is overall value, unless you are going to be stuck in a very small niche.

Frankly from what I see, this Toyota Etios is rather underwhelming. The Honda Jazz atleast was a top rated product, but priced atrociously. The Etios promises to be an atrocious product priced ridiculously for the features and product.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Jun 2010 21:30

There used to be a Dunlop factory in WB , of course communists had it closed.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 26 Jun 2010 23:39

^^There was one in Chennai as well which got closed due to striking union. I think they reopened it recently after a very very long time.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 27 Jun 2010 04:02

Suzuki Expands to Keep on Top of India Car Market

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2010 08:22

vina, 60k in indian conditions is a fairly high number. how old were they? 5 years ?
I had all 4 replaced after 5 yrs(40k km) as they were worn down and also replaced the battery. if your battery >= 5 , I would get it replaced with a Amaron (3 yr warranty model is enough) and avoid exide.

dont skimp on the rear wheels , a costly car with poor tyres is like a woman with poor shoes. just chuck them and retain the best one of the remaining 3 as a spare.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2010 08:25

the pricing of the new honda small car, nissan micra and toyota etios hatch and sedan will decide their mass market fortunes in india.

honda should also admit their error and reprice the jazz to 1.5L below current level to make it move out of showroom. or maybe even
make a sedan out of it Dzire style....indians somehow are unwilling to pay top$ for a large hatch but will readily buy a hacked up
toy sedan like Dzire of the same dimension - MUL understood that and cashed in.

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Jun 2010 09:08

Singha wrote:vina, 60k in indian conditions is a fairly high number. how old were they? 5 years ?
I had all 4 replaced after 5 yrs(40k km) as they were worn down and also replaced the battery. if your battery >= 5 , I would get it replaced with a Amaron (3 yr warranty model is enough) and avoid exide.

dont skimp on the rear wheels , a costly car with poor tyres is like a woman with poor shoes. just chuck them and retain the best one of the remaining 3 as a spare.

Yeah.. In the close to 6 1/2 years I have had the car, I replaced all the tyres right at the beginning (the OEM tyres are tubed 175/80 R13, MRF which were so not to my liking). Over the years, one of the tyres suffered a side wall fracture and another had a too many punctures and got pocked like a Paki on Heroin. So ended up buying one extra tyre during the 6 years or so, with the barely used tyre that was used as the spare being mounted on the wheels.. So the relatively new tyres with around 15k Kms / 1 to 2 years of life left in them are in the rear and the brand new tyres went on the front. I will change the rear tyres next year or so.

All in all, I have been lucky with the tyres, with a total of 6 tyres (5 + 1 I bought midway) and 3 left in pretty useable condition, with 2 in very decent condition. So had to buy only 2 more tyres to bring the entire rig upto scratch.

Battery has been replaced twice. First time with an Exide which went Paki in exactly 3 years and then replaced with Amaron maintenance free, which has been fine.

The only pain with the assymetric tread pattern like with the new michelins and the older goodyears are that they are unidirectional. They cannot be switched left to right without unmounting from the rims and so there is a 50% chance that your spare will be in the "wrong" direction and if it is a wrong direction, you have to fix your tyre and put it back if you want the full performance benefits of the tyres.

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Jun 2010 09:20

Singha wrote:the pricing of the new honda small car, nissan micra and toyota etios hatch and sedan will decide their mass market fortunes in india..

Frankly with the Toyota Etios, I see a replay of the LCA /tata vs Bideshi fighters debate all over again. Lets see.. The Etios has a centre mounted console like the Indica Vista and the Nano, the picture look absolutely bare bones in features and has the equipment levels of a "Luxury version Nano" and has a single wiper just like the Nano. So all it is is basically a stripped down Toyota small car, which will be "uptrimmed" for exports and sold without critical safety features like ABS, Airbags etc as entry level and looks crap anyway.

So all in all, to meet price targets Toyota's "India " model is a stripped down dud from folks who don't know how to engineer to Indian cost models and are unwilling to open full fledged India engineer center with dhoti clad Yindoos who can do such cut price engineering at Toyota quality levels.

But frankly the Etios "sedan" looks absolute crap and has a totally ungainly look about it.. It looks like a classic "hatch" converted to sedan hack job. And for the features and performance, it will be atrociously over priced to cover the Japanese cost base and to eke out atleast a positive gross margin out of it.

I will be very very surprised if it is otherwise. However the Automag pimps will be tom tomming it as the hottest sh**t around and the "legendary" quality etc. The only reason to buy it will be realiability and the need for a Toyota name plate .

Yeah,I was always the Honda and BMW guy and will never buy a Toyota. But for the "Saw cars in Gelf and need to buy one in Yindia" types are sold on the Toyota sticker. It will be god send for them.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2010 09:41

I agree with the etios - quite pathetic looking and limp. even the vw polo hatch and sedan should be eating it for a snack. the jazz atleast is nicely equipped and the interior plastics and stuff felt solid and good.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Jun 2010 15:07

Just bought Apollo Acelere shoes for the fiesta from New Bharat PitStop.

The OEM size is 175/65/R14. The shop offered 180/60R14, and claimed that it will fit fine on the existing alloys. That was 3.1K per pop (ie, the thinner ones are costlier). OTOH, the correct size was 3.8K per pop. I felt uncomfy about mounting the wrong size on those rims, so went for the correct size. I am not a good haggler, so ended up paying total 15.5K for four tyres, including balancing/alignment.

The OEM MRFs ran only 30K, and they looked like my own forehead. I hope these ones would at least run 40K. The wider ones would have lasted more though.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 27 Jun 2010 16:59

Chandragupta wrote:Learned mullahs, need your advice on which car to go for in the midsize segment. I am currently eying the Corolla Altis, Honda Civic & Chevy Cruze. While I like all three cars, I want to go for one that can scorch the road, with good enough luxury & comfort. Also, should I be worried about Cruze being a GM product (expensive spares, lower resale value etc etc)?

Finally got a new White ANHC V Manual. Although Pitashree & my heart was set on Civic

but good sense prevailed and we got its younger cousin instead. It would have been a nightmare parking the Civic along with the other cars in front of the house.

Although its a pleasure to drive, after I took my first ride, I came back & kissed my good old Santro atleast 20 times. When I drive that little fella, this mujahid transforms into a roaring tiger, zipping & zapping the Dilli traffic like a hot knife through butter, but in the new ride, I'm a textbook SDRE cowering in his dhoti watching other roaring tigers threatening to bite here & there. Today I truly understand the pitiable "Have mercy on me pleej" look those bigger car drivers gave me while I roared in my Santrosaurus.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2010 17:44

indeed - same situation here. its very frustrating trying to drive a big car in thick traffic, esp if you drove a smaller one earlier could dart into strategic gaps and fight for space with autos and bikes.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 27 Jun 2010 17:44

I bought a santro three years ago for minimal India use when visiting desh, on the advice of car mullahs and now all are ditching it for their newer wives after having praised the old ones performance for Indian household use.

I see that the new yuppie crowd in India upgrades theirs every 3 years or less faster than an amriki finds new GHQs and SHQs.

For this SDRE a honda and toyota till it croaks is the enlightened path to driving. Wedded for life onlee to whatever I buy. Never to ditch. I carried my $2k Caravelle all through graduate and pdf years when it already had 100k miles on it.

archit · Post by **archit** » 29 Jun 2010 12:30

Singha wrote:http://www.carblogindia.com/wp-content/ ... cf8006.jpg

That's not the Fiesta that'll make it to India...

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 29 Jun 2010 14:49

Its interesting that folks in India upgrade every 3-4 years... sure are rich

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Jul 2010 12:27

In massa, when replacing one or two tyres, the new ones always go in the rear. They never install in the front. Apparently, having better rear tyres are important to protect under over steer situations and when driving in wet road conditions.

Actually, the tyre scene in Massa is pretty sad to say the least. First, most cars in Massa dont come with a full size spare anyways, so it does make a lot of sense to go for high performance unidirectional tyres (which will be brilliant in wet conditions) , since the tyre will be put back in it's position at the nearest gas station /tyre repair spot.

In addition, unlike in Europe where the cars have separate summer and winter tyres, you dont change tyres in Massa in winter. Massa over uses the salt to clear roads (I am talking Chicago, upstate NY etc) and all that salt ends up in the lakes and pollutes water bodies anyways. In Europe they go really easy on the salt and make you put in winter tyres in your car . Plus the standard fitment OE tyres in US are the el cheapo and usually kaam chalao budget tyres really , more than anything else.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2010 12:55

where do europeans who live in apartments and townhomes with street parking for cars store their 2nd set of tyres?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2010 17:31

one strong point is people are uncertain of the future and looking to benefit from the 10yr/100k mile thing rather than have to pay out of pocket for camcord issues. that makes it the first among equals in a way...its loaded with more features for the price also.

camcord have their task cut out. and if the honda crosstour is supposed to be part of the answer, they are so wrong.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 02 Jul 2010 20:18

They put new tires on the front because they are front-drive vehicles. On bigger rear drive vehicles new tires go to the back.