Indian Army: News & Discussion

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 20 Jun 2010 23:59

RKhannaji,

You never spell out an alternative. Is is to hand over every army officer the locals demand for prosecution, castrate the army and allow terrorists the upper hand ? Be clear about this.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Jun 2010 00:00

rkhanna wrote: I am just calling a spade a spade. you however are free to call me whatever you want.

Best not to respond. That way lies dragons.

The distant drone of the paki national bird is audible.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 21 Jun 2010 00:09

RKhannaji,

You never spell out an alternative. Is is to hand over every army officer the locals demand for prosecution, castrate the army and allow terrorists the upper hand ? Be clear about this.

How do i spell out an Alternative? I am not a soldier nor am i a policy maker. No i do not wish every officer to be handed over for prosecution. Btw how does that give the terrorist a upper hand?

What i DO wish for is that the Army to have a more efficient internal mechanism to prevent and apprehend criminals and when that DOES happen do it in a transparent manner. This would go a long way in alienating the public in these regions.

The distant drone of the paki national bird is audible

I love how differing views here are labled paki/unpatriotic so quickly

very heart warming . thank you.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 21 Jun 2010 00:09

Lahori logic at its best, AFSPA is bad because Naxals are growing.

BRF seriously needs a bang head against the wall icon.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 21 Jun 2010 00:09

[quote="rkhanna"]It is their constitutional right to Protest the stripping of their civil Liberties. I want the right to protest against my country, my government and whomever i wish to protest against- That does not make me anti Indian NOR does it make me unpatriotic. Are you telling me kashmiri Protests are without merit? Simply put i want my governemnt and all its institutions held accountable to me (the public) ..Is that too much to ask in a democracy?
For decades we have done the armed policing bit. When will we eventually start tackling the real issues that actually alienate these people. Just see home much influence the Naxals are gaining (in terms of territory) or the Moaist. We have a very discriminated and disgruntled population. We continue ignoring that it is going to blow up in our face.[/quote]

Your knowledge of constitutional rights is very impressive. care to fill in on the remaining rights as well. And while you are at it, let us know if there are any constitutional duties whose observance is to be expected while you are protesting against your country, your government and whomever you have wished to protest against. click this if your famed family history prevented you from learning them
By the way, which 'constitution' guarantees the breast beaters & stone throwers their right to create chaos? It can't be the Indian constitution, since they dont believe in India!

And in case you still cant think of any relevant constitutional duties, let me help you:

- To follow the Constitution and respect its institutions, the National Flag and the National Anthem
- To spread the message of peace and brotherhood amongst all the Indian citizens irrespective of linguistic, religious and regional or sectional diversities
- To protect and promote the sovereignty, unity and integrity of India
- To protect public property and to avoid violence
- To provide defense and national service when called upon to the country during hours of crisis

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 21 Jun 2010 00:14

Do not insult the army by saying it has failed. With the AFSPA, it has brought violence under control. Wanting AFSPA amended means that you want the army to fall prey to terrorists. It means you are an anti-national yourself.

You have yet to tell me how amending the AFSPA the army will fall prey to terrorist. Are you seriously calling me an Anti National because i say the law is flawed? wow. Debate 101 dont resort to personal attacks. Kinda childish dont you think?

And can you show me a link where it has brought violence under control.? The Naxals and the NE are spreading. The kashmiri violence is pretty much the same. If it has reduced it is because the army has become better at stopping inflitration than anything else.

And How do you jump to conclusions such as that i am insulting the Army. Which btw as an Indian Citizen is also my right if i chose to do so.

Do i need to toe the right wing Military lover line to be called a patriot on this forum?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 21 Jun 2010 00:20

Did not know the right to protest. and the right to free speech was the same thing as causing chaos. Isnt Striking also a protest? they too must be anti national. and as per "Lahori" logic if the AFSPA isnt bad then it must be good right?

Anyways i will let you brave patriotic people be and will bother you no more

i see getting a paradigm shift out of some people here can catagorize you as a heretic. Before the witch burning begins i shall leave this discussion.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Jun 2010 00:23

rkhanna wrote:
The distant drone of the paki national bird is audible
I love how differing views here are labled paki/unpatriotic so quickly very heart warming . thank you.

A thousand pardons rkhannaji. You have misunderstood me.

The "paki national bird" was a facetious reference to a moderator who will soon be swooping down like a predator drone on this thread to ban young jehadis as the discussions get more rambunctious.

BTW, If I were you I would sleep with one eye open. Illustrious families such as yours, filled with warrior like ancestors may not take too kindly to your opinions.

Like genelia says, take care.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 21 Jun 2010 00:50

rkhanna wrote:Did not know the right to protest. and the right to free speech was the same thing as causing chaos.

chaos: A condition or place of great disorder or confusion. A state of extreme confusion and disorder.
So unless you tell me that stone throwers stand in single file, march in unison, and then throw stones in the most restrained manner, the word Chaos is the most appropriate.

you choose to ignore the obvious, therefore you also choose to run away after making such facetious remarks.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 21 Jun 2010 00:59

rkhanna wrote:Did not know the right to protest. and the right to free speech was the same thing as causing chaos. Isnt Striking also a protest? they too must be anti national. and as per "Lahori" logic if the AFSPA isnt bad then it must be good right?

Actually rhetoric is cheap and this variety is even cheaper, there is a queue outside JNU dishing out this nonsense without any one taking it.

A non lahori logician, would see that AFSPA is in Kashmir and hence should not be (unless you are on herbs) be linked to Maoist violence which is in a very different area (look up the map) when this is pointed out, a person not trained at binori madarassa would not normally agree that using Maosist violence and AFSPA in the same breath is a bit Paki.

However, the person from the school of logic from Lahore would instead protest that this is against the fundamental law of striking and hence those against the freedom of not working enshrined in the red book will rail against the basic connectedness of striking, AFSPA and maoist violence.

Anyways i will let you brave patriotic people be and will bother you no more i see getting a paradigm shift out of some people here can catagorize you as a heretic. Before the witch burning begins i shall leave this discussion.

No no please stay and regale us with more examples of how AFSPA is the root cause of Maoist violence and if we find that a little paki, feel free to dish out words like Paradim shift and patriotism.

Ptacchhh...

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 21 Jun 2010 04:27

A thousand pardons rkhannaji. You have misunderstood me.

The "paki national bird" was a facetious reference to a moderator who will soon be swooping down like a predator drone on this thread to ban young jehadis as the discussions get more rambunctious.

BTW, If I were you I would sleep with one eye open. Illustrious families such as yours, filled with warrior like ancestors may not take too kindly to your opinions.

Like genelia says, take care.

lol ..i am sorry then. As for my family. I have had this discussion a thousand times with them as well. Some specially the old timers tend to agree with me. The younger generations tells me its not all black and white. But none hold my views against me.

chaos: A condition or place of great disorder or confusion. A state of extreme confusion and disorder.
So unless you tell me that stone throwers stand in single file, march in unison, and then throw stones in the most restrained manner, the word Chaos is the most appropriate.

you choose to ignore the obvious, therefore you also choose to run away after making such facetious remarks.

Thank you for the vocabulary lesson. We find stone throwers in all parts of India. Not just Kashmir. Others are tolerated is it because they arnt against the govt? And for the record i was talking about Protest and free speech.. not stone throwing. I do do not condone destruction of property.

And as for running away.

its called doing chores around the house. Sunday being the only day off and all.

Actually rhetoric is cheap and this variety is even cheaper, there is a queue outside JNU dishing out this nonsense without any one taking it.

Hmmm maybe its time the citizens of our great country sat up and listened to this rhetoric. Because not all of it is without merit. Apathy of our population doesnt make the rhetoric irrelevant.

A non lahori logician, would see that AFSPA is in Kashmir and hence should not be (unless you are on herbs) be linked to Maoist violence which is in a very different area (look up the map) when this is pointed out, a person not trained at binori madarassa would not normally agree that using Maosist violence and AFSPA in the same breath is a bit Paki.

Yes i stand corrected with the inclusion of the maoist. I just lumped all the insurgencies together in my haste. But my point was about the root cause of these "anti national" movements which seem to be growing at an alarming rate. Which has never been done from a socio-economic stand point by any of our political adminstrations.

And again i was only talking about the right to protest and free speech. Nice to see you can take my words out of context. But i didnt equate protesting to and Insurgency. You did.

No no please stay and regale us with more examples of how AFSPA is the root cause of Maoist violence and if we find that a little paki, feel free to dish out words like Paradim shift and patriotism.

Ptacchhh...

Again since we are on the topic of lahori logic. I would love for you to tell me where i have said that AFSPA is the root cause of the violence. All i said was it hasnt helped in solving the issue and probably has helped escalate it further. The Root cause of these struggles would require a PHD level dissertation.

Today our disgruntled populations live in far of places. the NE, Kashmir and in rural areas. What happens when it comes to our collective urban doorstep? What then? Its easy to talk with detachment about something that is happening far from your home. But do know that it is OUR country.

And the word Paradigm shift too heavy a concept to digest for you? Or are you so stubborn to admit that for the past 50 years we maybe COULD have been wrong with how we have handled some parts of our population. Or maybe that there COULD be a better alternative to AFSPA? Or is admitting that simply treason?

Please feel free to take potshots at my patriotism if you wish.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 21 Jun 2010 05:46

rkhanna wrote: I am a realist. and Ironic isnt it that insurgent activities such as the naxals , etc seem to be spreading not stopping. Last map i saw they were active in nearly 28% of India (territory wise). Hmmm.. wonder why so many people in our country are growing angry with our government. The use of force sure is working isnt it? Our country is reaching a crises point. And we need to fix it fast.

It is not that people living in India are more angry at their government than other democracies. Even in the West, take the US, people are angry and frustrated by their government. The difference between the situation in other countries and in India is that people in India think they can get away with violence because the government is influenced by left wing weak kneed liberals who are ever eager to bend over and appease even the most crazy of nut jobs and is prepared to listen to even the most ridiculous of demands. They know that they can burn buses, hold entire states hostage and even threaten elected officials because the government will do too little too late. Also, the fact that our judiciary is ancient and glacial doesn't help inspire people of speedy justice or foster a respect of the state.
The solution, is actually the opposite of what you advocate- which is capitulation. It is Iron fist law enforcement and swift justice ! Like the saying goes "Give an inch and they'll take a mile!"

rkhanna wrote: Tell me . Why cant i love my armed forces and be free to critize them at the same time? I am just calling a spade a spade. you however are free to call me whatever you want.

You can criticize all you want, but the point still remains that your arguments don't hold any water. Tying the Indian Army's hands and asking them to fight a deadly insurgency that has cost tens of thousands of lives is ludicrous and frankly a suicide mission that none of our soldiers signed up for! Trying to dilute the AFSPA merely to appease some militant Islamic fundamentalists who after all the rights and privileges they receive as Indian citizens will not be happy with anything less than an autonomous Islamic Sharia state of Kashmir. That is not what most Indians will ever tolerate.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 21 Jun 2010 05:58

It is not that people living in India are more angry at their government than other democracies. Even in the West, take the US, people are angry and frustrated by their government. The difference between the situation in other countries and in India is that people in India think they can get away with violence because the government is influenced by left wing weak kneed liberals who are ever eager to bend over and appease even the most crazy of nut jobs and is prepared to listen to even the most ridiculous of demands. They know that they can burn buses, hold entire states hostage and even threaten elected officials because the government will do too little too late. Also, the fact that our judiciary is ancient and glacial doesn't help inspire people of speedy justice or foster a respect of the state.
The solution, is actually the opposite of what you advocate- which is capitulation. It is Iron fist law enforcement and swift justice ! Like the saying goes "Give an inch and they'll take a mile!"

I can agree to that. But Cant it be a Transparent Iron Fist. ? I am just talking about accountability.

You can criticize all you want, but the point still remains that your arguments don't hold any water. Tying the Indian Army's hands and asking them to fight a deadly insurgency that has cost tens of thousands of lives is ludicrous and frankly a suicide mission that none of our soldiers signed up for! Trying to dilute the AFSPA merely to appease some militant Islamic fundamentalists who after all the rights and privileges they receive as Indian citizens will not be happy with anything less than an autonomous Islamic Sharia state of Kashmir. That is not what most Indians will ever tolerate.

I think you misunderstand my critisism. I am not intending that the Army have its hands tied. I am merely talking about accountability. The AFSPA while giving the Army the free hand it needs also is very draconian and further alienates the people from the mainstream. A changing of the Law with regards to Accountability and transparency (within limits) would be better overall. And its not about Islamic Fundamentalist. It includes the north east. And not everybody in Kashmir is a fundamentalist.
I dont claim to have a solution or even saying that there is a better solution. I am saying unless we dont start thinking about it we will never find out if there is a better solution. Because in my opinion as it stands now the cycle of violence is not going to end any time soon and the Army is going to be stuck there for a very long time. Being stuck in COIN means the armys ability to fight a conventional war may get eroded. Our men and materials get fatigued for when they are needed the most (i.e Kargil). Somewhere somebody has to find a better way of doing the same thing.

Again i am not talking about dilution. Change doesnt mean dilution. I am simply saying we need to find a Better way.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 21 Jun 2010 06:14

rkhanna - you are saying that the act should be changed, which parts of the AFSPA specifically are you referring to?

Regarding fake encounters/collateral damage - pertinent issues in any COIN campaign, however has it been any worse other nations? AFAIK, the IA has a much better track record.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Jun 2010 07:02

just wanted to mention that IA's effort in J&K can't be considered anything less than a stupendous success, the insurgency part has been completely neutralised and its the infiltration that is keeping the fire burning. I do not quite see where these ideas that violence has been increasing comes from. the political attitude of the people there however, does not inspire confidence that AFSPA should be withdrawn.

in parts of NE, perhaps.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 21 Jun 2010 07:04

if he is of opinion that it is necessary so to do for the
maintenance of public order, after giving such due warning as
he may consider necessary, fire upon or otherwise use force,
even to the causing of death, against any person who is acting
in contravention of any law or order for the time being in
force in the disturbed area prohibiting the assembly of five or
move persons or the carrying of weapons or of things capable
of being used as weapons or of fire-arms, ammunition or
explosive substances;

Pretty much same powers lie with the police forces also. An executive magistrate can take review of a situation and order the firing. The section also has provision which mandates giving of and advance notice/due warning. Also this provision seems to be riding on top of the Cr.PC Sec.144 which forbades assembly for more than 5 people, and carrying of weapons etc. This section does not say that firing is mandatory, but the officer can order firing if it is absolutely neccessary. Honestly with the amount of rioting which happens in Kashmir with every drop of a hat, such measures are required.

rkhanna wrote:This basically allows the use of live ammunition on unarmed civilians. Prefer if the Rules of engagement for more precisely laid down.

The police can also use live round of ammunition on civilians (unarmed or other wise). Why cant the army also use the same? Firing would be used as the last resort.

Sachin: Edit mistaken as quote

. Sorry for mutilating the post.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 21 Jun 2010 07:15

Rahul M wrote:just wanted to mention that IA's effort in J&K can't be considered anything less than a stupendous success, the insurgency part has been completely neutralised and its the infiltration that is keeping the fire burning. I do not quite see where these ideas that violence has been increasing comes from. the political attitude of the people there however, does not inspire confidence that AFSPA should be withdrawn.

in parts of NE, perhaps.

Yeah, aren't most of the problems are from outside JK? This is without a lot of the more brutal tactics other nations have used in fighting insurgency.

The situation in NE is different which way?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 21 Jun 2010 07:26

Food for thought

This is from David Galula a French officer from the Algerian War. (His book is called Counter Insurgency Warfare)

A victory [in a counterinsurgency] is not the destruction in a given area of the insurgent's forces and his political organization. ... A victory is that plus the permanent isolation of the insurgent from the population, isolation not enforced upon the population, but maintained by and with the population. ... In conventional warfare, strength is assessed according to military or other tangible criteria, such as the number of divisions, the position they hold, the industrial resources, etc. In revolutionary warfare, strength must be assessed by the extent of support from the population as measured in terms of political organization at the grass roots. The counterinsurgent reaches a position of strength when his power is embedded in a political organization issuing from, and firmly supported by, the population

Comes back to what i was trying to say about the alienation of the local populations. The AFSPA is a sizable reason for the alienation of the populations. Maybe there is a better way of going about it.

From the TOI article

"NEW DELHI: Notwithstanding opposition from the Army and faced with reports of fake encounters, the government is planning to go ahead with certain amendments in the Armed Forces Special Powers Act which includes handing over of an Army personnel in case of extra-judicial killings to the state authorities"

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=13033

The primary amendment here seems to be handing over Soldiers to civilian authorities in the case of Extra-Judicial Killings. How does that degrade Army operations? They are specifically talking about extra judicial killings. Isnt that fair?

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 21 Jun 2010 07:31

Demand for AFSPA repeal limited to a few districts of the Kashmir region of J&K State

The Chief of Army Staff, General VK Singh had, prior to his first visit to J&K on assuming his new appointment, cautioned against the revocation of AFSPA since this would adversely impact conduct of operations in the state. This did not go down well with the separatists and opposition parties like the PDP who have, ever since, consistently called for immediate revocation of the act. These elements can, of course, be dismissed as pursuers of a policy of blatant political opportunism.

The Act is essential for the army to function proactively in counter terrorism and counter insurgency situations. When the enemy has penetrated within the civilian population it is he who has curbed the liberty of the people and not the security forces who are, in fact, trying to ensure that the right to life and dignity of the civilian population is not compromised by such mercenary and criminal elements. No person on earth can function without the assurance that his actions will not draw punitive retribution by the State and the AFSPA ensures just that for the soldiers. It also has to be ensured that terrorists do not misuse civil laws to get away with their nefarious activity, hence the need to fortify counter terrorist operations with special powers for search, arrest and detention.

In any case the Indian Amy soldiers are subject to the Army Act 1950 which is invoked while investigating all cases of excesses committed in areas under the jurisdiction of the AFSPA and the Army Act is by no means less stringent than the criminal procedure code of the Indian Constitution.

In any case, there are no voices heard against the Act in the Jammu region (including Poonch, Rajouri, Reasi, Doda or Kishtwar), the Ladakh region and the higher reaches of Kashmir. The most stringent calls for its repeal are emanating from only a few districts of the Kashmir valley which are under the influence of the separatist and divisive ideology. In fact, a majority of people across the state feel more secure with the presence of the security forces in their vicinity and would protest if the status quo is broken. As such, this cannot be perceived as an overwhelming aspiration of the people of the state.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Jun 2010 07:34

perhaps this entire discussion should be done in internal security thread in strat forum. please continue there and put a link here for continuation.
thanks for the cooperation.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 21 Jun 2010 10:50

I see our resident lateral thinker with a distinguished pedigree has disappeared when pointed out that using Maoist violence as a test case for AFSPA is lahori.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 21 Jun 2010 22:23

shiv wrote:I thought I would upload this chart of Indian boys height to weight charts. This is useful before doing a country comparison how how tall and how heavy.

I have a video somewhere of how far recruits are supposed to run carrying 30 or 40 kg. Will try and access that an upload.

I don't understand this graph.

Why are there 2 bunches of lines one from the low end and the other higher up ?

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 22 Jun 2010 15:40

^^^ The top bunch of lines are for variations of height vs age and the bottom bunch is weight vs age.
each of the five lines in a bunch are for various centile 97th to 3rd, the median being the 50th.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 23 Jun 2010 06:27

Want better socks: Jawans to Antony at Siachen

...
"The jawans wanted that some of the accessories such as quality of socks should be improved. They also wanted increased number of snow mobiles for their operational requirements," Defence Ministry officials said here.

The jawans also requested the Defence Minister to ensure that telephone call rates are reduced to facilitate communication with their family members, they added.
...

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 23 Jun 2010 07:34

^^

It's a DAMN SHAME when one looks at a quality of the Socks, which are meant for HIGH ALTITUDE WARFARE.. I think the next round of BRF donations should be made for getting these Jawans some of the BEST, THICKEST wool socks & Gloves best money can buy!!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Jun 2010 07:40

The IN has a rep that deals directly with the NLCA. The IAF seems to have one too. Wonder if the IA has some such deputed people - for say tanks, etc?

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Jun 2010 08:45

News channels reporting that a colonel KIA in a encounter in J&K..

RIP to the officer!!

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 23 Jun 2010 09:06

Army colonel killed in encounter

An Army colonel was killed in an encounter with militants in the dense forests of Lolab Valley in North Kashmir, official sources said today.

Col. Neeraj Sood, commanding officer of 18 Rashtriya Rifles, was gunned down by terrorists last night, they said.

The encounter was still on in the area when last reports came in. Additional forces have been rushed to the area.

RIP sir!!

vic · Post by **vic** » 23 Jun 2010 19:16

When a Senior Officer of Quick Reaction team dies then I have to wonder about things like Helmsts, BPJs, Thermal sights and all sort of equipment which they might lack. I also have to wonder why we are paying around Rs. 20,000 crore for Gorky and Pigs-29 when we need lot of CT/COIN equipment.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Jun 2010 19:18

Received by email, author unknown.

1/2 boy 1/2 man

While the average age of the army man is around 30 years, at the time of enrolling / commissioning he is around 19 years. He is a short haired, tight-muscled kid who, under normal circumstances is considered by society
as half man, half boy. Not yet dry behind the ears, not old enough to buy a beer, but old enough to die for his country.

He's a recent school/college graduate; he was probably an average student from one of the Kendriya Vidyalayas, pursued some form of sport activities, rides an old mo'bike / scooter, and has a steady girlfriend that either
broke up with him when he left, or swears to be waiting when he returns from half a world away. He listens to bollywood music or ghazals or rock & roll or hip-hop or country or swing …. ………. and a 155mm howitzer.

He is 5 or 7 kilos lighter now than when he was at home because he is working or fighting insurgents or standing guard on the icy Himalayas or the jungles of the North East from before dawn to well after dusk or he is in
Mumbai engaging the terrorists. He has trouble spelling, thus letter writing is a pain for him, but he can field strip a rifle in 30 seconds and reassemble it in less time in the dark. He can recite to you the nomenclature of a machine gun or grenade launcher and use either one effectively if he must.

He digs trenches and weapon-pits and can apply first aid like a professional. He can march until he is told to stop, or stop until he is told to march. He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation, but he is not without spirit or individual dignity. His pride and self-respect, he does not lack. He is self-sufficient.

He has two sets of combat dress: he washes one and wears the other. He keeps his water bottle full and his feet dry. He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never to clean his rifle. He can cook his own meals, mend his own
clothes, and fix his own hurts.

If you're thirsty, he'll share his water with you; if you are hungry, his food. He'll even split his ammunition with you in the midst of battle when you run low.

He has learned to use his hands like weapons and eapons like they were his hands. He can save your life - or take it, because that is his job. He will often do twice the work of a civilian, draw half the pay, and still find ironic humour in it all. He has seen more suffering and death than he
should have in his short lifetime. He has wept in public and in private, for friends who have fallen in combat and is unashamed.

He feels every note of the Jana Gana Mana vibrate through his body while at rigid attention, while tempering the burning desire to 'square-away' those around him who haven't bothered to stand, remove their hands from their
pockets, or even stop talking. In an odd twist, day in and day out, far from home, he defends their right to be disrespectful. Just as did his father, grandfather, and
great-grandfather, he is paying the price for our freedom. Beardless or not, he is not a boy.

He is your nation's Fighting Man that has kept this country free and defended your right to Freedom. He has experienced deprivation and adversity, and has seen his buddies falling to bullets and maimed and blown.

But, he has asked nothing in return, except our acknowledgement of his existence and understanding of his human needs. Remember him, always, for he has earned our respect and admiration with his blood.
And now we even have women over there in danger, doing their part in this tradition of going to War when our nation calls us to do so.

As you go to bed tonight, remember this shot. . .. A short lull, a little shade and a picture of loved ones in their helmets.

NehraA · Post by **NehraA** » 23 Jun 2010 23:18

^^^^ this ir from col. Hariharans blog

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 23 Jun 2010 23:35

vic wrote:When a Senior Officer of Quick Reaction team dies then I have to wonder about things like Helmsts, BPJs, Thermal sights and all sort of equipment which they might lack. I also have to wonder why we are paying around Rs. 20,000 crore for Gorky and Pigs-29 when we need lot of CT/COIN equipment.

Absolutely... they should seriously look at if any of the equipment was at fault or if there was a better strategy/way of doing that operation... I know CI needs leaders, and our Majors and Colonels are not shy of action, but why do we need to expose them ... are not they better in raising/leading people like them instead of being martyred like this... I recall Tom Hanks in 'Saving Private Ryan' ... I know the scenario is different but he leads his team instead of trying to take the bullet upon himself all the time...it's high time we made our soldiers capable as well instead of just relying on their leaders...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Jun 2010 23:40

>> it's high time we made our soldiers capable as well instead of just relying on their leaders...

wow, just wow.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Jun 2010 23:42

A couple of days ago we had an incident where our BSF jawans were stuck in a post surrounded by fire from three directions. Did that get resolved ?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Jun 2010 06:45

sawant, Re. the last sentence, how old are you?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 24 Jun 2010 08:26

sawant wrote:...it's high time we made our soldiers capable as well instead of just relying on their leaders...

Usually, I frown down upon a smilie reply but this does not deserve anything more than a

.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jun 2010 15:05

Fished out from nukkad...

Singha wrote:the interview http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/ne ... how_page=0

the most hilarious part is on page2 or page3 where COIN is made out to be a american invention and something new & revolutionary.

Oh and the contrast between a american GI and a Indian soldier stands out clearly. Forget Kashmir, even in sustained long term UN participation the level of discipline of a Indian solider is seen to be believed.

He does not complain continuously about the danger to his life and loss of his comrades and use it as a reason to go on a random shooting spree leveling everything in sight.

The level of empathy and understanding that a typical Indian has makes the GI look like a brutal mindless jock.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 24 Jun 2010 16:48

Rahul, Bose, Gaur:
Sawant has a point, there is a reason why Lt. Gen. Panag came out the other day and gave a 3 out of 10 for the infantry; others within and without have also concurred in much greater detail. However in light of these attacks and casualties, I think his comments are inappropriate (and should be ignored for a decent time at least) but are not completely incorrect.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 24 Jun 2010 16:51

Sanku ji , While the indian soldier does not complain doesn't mean everything is hunky dory in Army.I don't know about you but I do know some indian soldiers and trust me there is a lot of discontent.They think they have been shortchanged and there is some truth to it.Just go and ask some Jawans how they feel about the high command and the politician bureaucrat nexus.You will get your answers.

Sometimes I think it is better to speak out your mind even at the cost of being labeled indisciplined otherwise politician bureaucrat nexus combined with Army high command will continue to take them for granted.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jun 2010 16:57

darshan, no one claimed that every think is hunky dory in IA, there are many issues that need to be fixed.

My specific point was how a very well equipped, fed and what not army is a bunch of cry babies compared to the Indian soldier who easily handles and works with much better discipline and dedication.

The professionalism and trust on officer cadre is massively different. Which the officer cadre largely lives up to.

So I fail to see what relevance does your reaction have on my original point.